Anybody else watching the John Adams miniseries on HBO?

[MessiahRp]

I wanted to get some opinions, thoughts, comments on the series by my fellow DUers.

I happen to think the series is very well done. Of course Adams is a conservative blowhard to some degree but he could be brought to sensible opinion and make reasoned judgments especially when they were tempered by conversations with his wife or Mr. Jefferson. Jefferson by the way, always seems like the smartest fellow in the room on this miniseries and although I am plenty aware of his qualifications for such a remark from my own readings, I have always felt that he was the true embodiment of the rebellious American spirit that longed for real freedom and liberty.

Unfortunately we live in a time when such wants are considered trivial to our own faux safeties and to protect our lives as consumerists more than as purveyors of freedom and liberties to the world.

I believe the show is fascinating. What do you think?

Rp

[Cooley Hurd]

1. Very well done - David McCullough's writings have been a favorite of mine...

...and the interpretation by Hanks' production company is exquisite.:thumbsup:

I like the portrait of Hamilton that's painted by the production - smarmy, Federalist asshat. Aaron Burr's aim was true!:D

[melody]

3. Hamilton's asshatedness will become even more apparent next Sunday lol

Talk about a slimy character in history.

[melody]

2. I'm an Adams buff -- Adams was no conservative

He was a moderate and would often argue against conservatives.

I think it's an amazing series and that it finally does justice to Adams role in the founding of the republic.

Incidentally, didn't you notice Adams arguing against the "terror and money" views of Hamilton?

Editing to add an Adams quote: "These cool conservative men of property and commerce hang to the rear on every
issue so that, in the event we go under, they shall still remain afloat." (I'm quoting from old memory, but I think
that's close)

[Selatius]

6. Lot of folks in those days disagreed with Hamilton. Jefferson being one of the biggest.

It's sort of the precursor to the conflict between the Federalists and Anti-Federalists.

[melody]

20. Yes, well, Hamilton and Jefferson ended up conspiring together in the end

Against Adams.

[MessiahRp]

13. I mean it more in the sense that Adams was a bit of a social conservative

It's clear Hamilton's "Federalist" stances were to the right of even Adams.

Rp

[melody]

21. For his time, he was a liberal

He was an avowed abolitionist, a believer in the intellectual equality of women, and a staunch
agnostic who was very much against religion and state intermingling.

[SeattleGirl]

4. I'm watching this week's installment right now, and I love this series.

It is very well done, from the acting to the costumes to the physical surroundings.

This seems to be a very n on-romanticized version of the founding fathers, and I find it most welcome.

What I've also noticed is the parallels to today's politics: the fighting in Congress, the polarized views that people had, etc.

I don't see Adams as conservative blowhard, but rather as a man who also believes in the rule of law, such as when he defended the British soldiers after the Boston Massacre. One thing I really enjoy about it is how much input Abigail Adams had with her husband, and how she was not afraid to speak out to and against him when she felt he was off on the wrong track. Jefferson told her that John Adams' opinions were very much informed by Abigail, and in watching this miniseries, I would absolutely have to agree.

I want to read the letters between John and Abigail.

[MessiahRp]

14. The wording is my fault...

My thoughts were on his social conservatism moreso than his views on the rule of law or fiscal conservatism or even for that matter issues of warfare.

I looked at the blowhard more in the sense of his constant state of agitation and disagreement with his peers and repeated arguing of such (which I admit is characteristic of both a Patriot and an Attorney).

His personal conservatism towards his children and annoyance with the ways of France seem to frame my views of his conservatism.

Rp

[SeattleGirl]

17. Well, he WAS pretty conservative when it came to his children, but

so are a lot of parents. :)

That said, this series is just blowing me away. I want to buy copies of it for everyone I know who hasn't seen it.

[ourbluenation]

32. His approach to his children would have been moderate back in the day I suspect.

I'm enjoying this series to no end. :hi:

[DarienComp]

5. Love it.

Great dialogue, cinematography, acting. Also, actor David Morse looks so much like George Washington, it's spooky.

[SeattleGirl]

7. Morse IS spooky good in how he looks, isn't he?

I was just thinking that he looks like a portrait of Washington, come to life.

[fascisthunter]

40. My Girlfriend Works with His Nephew

The sad thing is, this nephew doesn't seem to take much notice of what his uncle is up to. She had to tell him that his uncle was in this miniseries before he had taken notice.

[fascisthunter]

38. His demeanor is Perfect for Washington

I love this miniseries.....

[gulfcoastliberal]

8. Truely a superb production.

Sublime, I'm sure it's Emmy winning stuff.

[Kool Kitty]

9. Excellent series.

Well-acted and I am actually learning something. I guess i should have paid more attention in history class, or my memory is going. Whatever the case is, I am certainly enjoying it.

[MADem]

10. Right on, brilliant, follows the book quite nicely, wonderful

production values, superb acting all round, and the only reason I haven't yet tossed HBO over the side!

[MessiahRp]

16. I love the series and find it a nice pick me up

I was rather distraught over the end of ROME last year. I absolutely loved that series.

It's disappointing we near the end of this one as well.

Oh well... maybe we could convince them to delve deeper into Jefferson as to me he seems the most intriguing character.

Rp

[melody]

27. McCullough actually started out writing about Jefferson, but abandoned that to write about Adams

He founds Adams the more interesting of the two.

I agree.

[saracat]

30. I actually find Adams unlikable, but he isn't uninteresting.

[NashVegas]

35. I Suspect a Lot of Pop Culture Critics

Would call him the Bono of his day.

[melody]

42. Not even close lol n/t

[ToeBot]

70. Sonny Bono, maybe, probably not. nt

[melody]

41. In the words of Jefferson, "if you knew Adams as I know him, you'd love him"

I find Adams imminently likable and admirable, but then I know a lot about him.

But then he's a very complex and not very physically perfect man.

I must say though I can't imagine anyone seeing Giamatti's wonderfully compassionate and caring portrayal
and not like Adams.

[annabanana]

43. He was famously "unlikable".. Even the musical "1776"

quoted his peers as considering him "obnoxious and disliked". .

[melody]

46. He wasn't really "obnoxious and disliked"

He was a loud and determined abolitionist and very forthright in his views so a lot of people found him hard to take. And I think the point of 1776 is to show that Adams actually wasn't "obnoxious and disliked" though he was definitely "pigheaded". lol

"Be not intimidated... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberties by any pretense of politeness, delicacy, or decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for hypocrisy, chicanery and cowardice." John Adams

[NashVegas]

34. Jefferson Tends To Stand Around With His Arms Folded A Lot

Not very dramatic, that.

I've been loving the series, but missed last night's.

[saracat]

55. Interestingly, according to contemporary accounts, that was actually a very common posture of

Jefferson. I am guessing the actor researched it.

[Selatius]

11. I found it novel watching Franklin, Adams, and Jefferson sitting and talking in France after the war

I still can't get over that picture.

We are lacking leadership of that caliber today.

[Blue_In_AK]

12. I'm really enjoying this...

The sets and costumes are wonderful. I'm struck sometimes that the scenes look just like paintings I've seen of the time.

[Growler]

15. It's extremely well done!

My GF and I have been watching it each week. We love it! It inspired me to finally watch "Band of Brothers" with her (one of her favorites, and another Tom Hanks production). Great stuff!

[Lilith Velkor]

18. I think Jefferson is fucking HOT

...but seriously, John Adams was a complicated dude. He had the Calvinist prudery going on, yet he and Abigail were abolotionists. Abby was especially hardcore about it. That scene with her and Washington made me giggle hysterically!

Brilliant, brilliant show. Can hardly wait for it to come out on disc.

[saracat]

25. OMG, I do too. he is the stuff that fantasies are made of!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

28. He's a scorcher!

I think the actor playing him is making some very interesting acting choices with that character -- very underplayed and nuanced -- I especially liked him last night with his head resting against the chair wing.

[saracat]

29. No kidding. You are absolutely correct! And There is just something

so sexy about his being the perfect southern gentleman.Abigael's reaction to him was really interesting in the last episode. I actually googled Jefferson and there are some portraits in which he looks quite a bit like the actor and his personality seems to have been described a lot like the portrayal!

And he certainly was a study in contradictions. Both about slavery and his opinion of woman. He was both for and against slavery and had both a disparaging opinion of woman and the deepest respect for them! He seemed only attracted to very intelligent woman, who were also beautiful and really liked and respected Abigail Adams.Yet he seemed to write woman off in general and thought they shouldn't have rights.He was certainly a flip flopper!

[melody]

47. Abigal hated him to the end of her days for what he did to John n/t

[saracat]

54. Maybe, but she is portrayed as finding him attractive in the beginning.

And there is no denying she exchanged a series of letters with him and that he respected her. And seriously. all one has to do is look at some of the portraits of Jefferson and read the descriptions of him by contemporaries and, Adams while brilliant, wasn't attractive or personable.
I also find him a bit of a pretentious ass, as apparently did many of his time. Including Abigail at times!

[melody]

57. I don't care if he was attractive -- I care that he had character

Which Jefferson did not to the same degree, imho. Jefferson had a dark, conniving side to him. I grew up with a high opinion of Jefferson. It was difficult for me to discover the darker side.

And it comes down to the fact that Jefferson had mistresses and slaves. Adams had one wife, no mistresses, and despised slavery. He also respected women which Jefferson did not.

[saracat]

61. Jefferson was ambiguous on women and seemed in conflict with the mores of his time.

He has enormous respect for his lover Maria Coseway and there isn't "concrete" evidence that he actually had a slave mistress. It is just as possible the Hemmings were a relatives children. His correspondence with both Abigail Adams and maria Coseway indicates he did have a great respect for women though other accounts indicate otherwise.As I said , he was a contradiction. He was also devoted to and very much in love with his late wife according to contemporary accounts.

It seems a bit pederstrian to judge Jefferson on having had a lover after his wife died and a on the basis of a rumour that he may have had a slave mistress.Adams may not have been such a pargion of virtue so much as a man who wan't attractive to women but weho knows? It was long before my time anyway.I just wouldn't be so quick to judge his character by the standards of today and inn contrat to Adams find hin lacking by contrived contemporary standards. both were wortthy men and men of their times.

[melody]

63. There is a good deal of evidence that he had a slave mistress

My primary problem with Jefferson is what he did to his friends not his affairs but if you're going to judge Adams as "unlikable"
and "unattractive", surely I can point out that Jefferson had substantial personal problems including being a slaveholder.
Adams wasn't always a nice man but he was a good man and I consider that more important. Both were human beings with the
normal foibles of even the best of human beings.

Your typos suggest you're getting a bit angry over this. I was having what I thought was an impassioned but objective
debate. I certainly didn't mean to emotionally upset you. I apologize if I have done so and will simply back out of the debate.

[MessiahRp]

65. I responded to the slave issue earlier, but let me give you a great link

this discusses in far more detail how Jefferson (and Washington) inherited their slaves and were forced to keep them in order to not break apart their families. It also mentions a profit sharing plan Jefferson put in place to pay his slaves.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=99

Rp

[melody]

67. And I responded to the slavery comments also in my own earlier response

This isn't the place to debate the wider issue of slavery, imo. Maybe someone can fire up a thread in a more applicable thread.

[saracat]

69. I am not the least bit angry about this. I just thought it was a bit unfair to judge Jefferson

by other than the standareds of his time. Both men were of course worthy men but were different. i just question whether one can judge either of these people, who are long dead as one being a better person than another.I am not prepared to find Adams a better person than Jefferson merely because of certain aspects of his personal life.But we certainly have the right to differ.

[melody]

71. That's good, I'm glad I didn't upset you

Both men were lifetime good friends so obviously Adams saw enough in Jefferson (and vice versa) to balance my opinion
from the distance of years and miles.

[MessiahRp]

64. Jefferson was bound to his slaves.

He inherited them and Virginia law would not let him free him. In fact though Washington benefitted from weaker laws and was able to free his slaves at death, a more strict law passed in Virginia afterwards that disallowed the practice and even in death Jefferson couldn't free his slaves.

Both Washington and Jefferson abhorred slavery but were bound by their inheritance to keep them or sell them which neither wanted to do because it broke apart the slaves' families.

So they kept the slaves on, took care of them, kept them well fed and clothed... in the case of Washington to the detriment of his financial status, he lost money by keeping the slaves there but was willing to incur the cost to keep the families together and take care of them.

Jefferson on the other hand instituted a profit sharing plan and paid the slaves a percentage of the profits from the success of his farm.

Holding slavery against either of them is a poor choice.

Rp

[melody]

66. There is a great deal of dispute on that matter regarding Jefferson

Washington was most certainly bound by law to his slaves. He also acted very admirably toward them. It's arguable that Jefferson had numerous choices where his slaves were concerned and his behavior toward many of them is questionable.

Historians have been debating all this for ages. I suspect most of what we think we know is bound up in supposition based on a selective reading of history in light of the noteworthiness of the men whose biographies were being written.

[Lilith Velkor]

50. The attraction for me

is that he's a long haired hippie.



Also, I strongly suspect he was an Aspie. Not all brillant men were - for example, I don't think Ben Franklin was - but from some of the descriptions of his mannerisms, I get a bit of the Aspie vibe.

[saracat]

53. Uhh... What is an Aspie?

[Lilith Velkor]

56. oops

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspergers

I know a guy who has it. Total genius, but no clue what's going on socially. I'm told I have it, but I've been labelled with a lot of things, so I reserve judgement.

[NashVegas]

36. ITA

The actor does a nice job of providing Marlon Brando-like brooding, doesn't he?

[Lilith Velkor]

49. Eesh - I always think of Marlon Brando as the Godfather

Stephen Dillane is close enough to this, I think.

[NashVegas]

58. Think Younger

[Lilith Velkor]

62. hmmm

Doesn't do much for me, but I'd definitely hit it after a couple o' brews.

I find your sigline fascinating, so I think I'll go look it up.

[Blue_In_AK]

44. I agree, Jefferson is VERY cool.

Is it just me or has there been a little flirtation going on between Abigail and Tom? Is this historically based or dramatic license?

[Lilith Velkor]

48. Totally dramatic license

Tom and Abby corresponded for years. They had the 18th century equivalent of an epic flamewar about slavery in general and Jefferson's ownership of 200 slaves in particular, especially Sally Hemings.

[Blue_In_AK]

52. Thank you for the clarification...

The flirtatious thing seemed a bit contrived, but I wasn't sure.

[glowing]

19. Still amazes me that anyone still has money to pay for HBO.. cut it off

years ago to save on some dough.. prob. will be cutting off a few more things as I go.

[melody]

22. It's the only reason I have it now -- to see this series n/t

[1]

23. yes. some of us do. n/t.

[NashVegas]

39. I Spend Less With HBO

Because it keeps me out of the video store.

I had NetFlix for a while, but at the time it cost more than HBO did and I'm a bit of a procrastinator ...

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

59. I look at it as my entertainment expense. I go to the movies, maybe once a year at best.

[sandnsea]

24. It's been incredible, one of the best ever

Absolutely fascinating and so well done. I watch it a few times every week, to make sure I don't miss anything. It's just so good.

[ruiner4u]

26. I love the show...

its a neat insight into when we were a young country...


and im beginning to think the best part of us ran down the UK's leg..

[Araxen]

31. Excellent show

That will clean up come award time.

[I work for workers]

33. It's pretty dumb to describe any of the founding fathers

with modern political terms. Politics has become such a different game in the past 231 years that our terms really don't fit worth a damn anymore.

[MessiahRp]

45. I agree

and as this thread has lengthened so has my regret for using such framework.

Rp

[fascisthunter]

37. It Has Been an Excellent Series....

I am recording all segments. The men back then would tar and feather those in Congress today. Hamilton may have been proud but that's about it.

snip...

Jefferson served two terms as President after defeating the incumbent Adams, then retired to his home in Monticello. Meanwhile from his retirement farm in Quincy, Massachusetts Adams began to write long and elaborate letters to his old adversary. A grudging admiration for each other may have developed in their later years. Nonetheless, Adams always proclaimed that, though Jefferson was 7 years younger than himself...

"I will out live Jefferson."

On his death bed on Independence Day, 1826 John Adams uttered his last words. They were "Thomas Jefferson survives."


http://www.homeofheroes.com/profiles/profiles_jeffadams.html

Their relationship helped create this country.... both conservatives and liberals could learn a thing or two from them BOTH.

[Blue_Roses]

51. this is one of the best

mini-series in a long time. I'm loving it and my ten-year-old daughter is even interested! It's exciting to see how they have made these characters come to life to tell this story.

Awesome! :thumbsup:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

60. I love the series so far! Giamati and Linney are brilliant, and yes, Jefferson makes

me wish that my baby factory wasn't closed!

In last night's episode, when he's in the Senate, trying to think of grandiose names to address the President, showed how conservative he was compared to the Senators, and obviously to Abigail, & when she found out she took him task! It seems he lost all sight of what the Revolution was about when he spent so much time in Europe. In the prior episode, I yelled at him for bowing to King George!

BTW...Laura Linney, although nominated for several Academy Awards, is probably the most underrated actress that we have. She is Always Brilliant in every role she has played.

[MessiahRp]

68. I want to make sure to give props to Tom Wilkinson

He does a fantastic job with Franklin. It's the most realistic portrayal (based on my readings of him) I can recall of Franklin on film.

He also did a wonderful job as Lord Cornwallis in The Patriot back in 2000. He seems to have a knack for this period.

Rp