What should happen to the 14 year old boy who killed the gay boy in his classroom?

[cynatnite]

Here is what one DUer said:

They should fry that little psychopathic 14 year old, but first, they should castrate him, and send his nuts on a tour from school to school as a lesson to all the other psychopathic little freaks.

Here is what I said about the death penalty:

SCOTUS has already ruled that minors SHOULD NOT be put to death for murder. Here are other reasons why the death penalty is wrong and doesn't work:

In no particular order:

Executions cost more than life in prison
Innocent may be wrongly executed
It is not a deterrent
Life in prison guarantees no future crime
Execution does NOTHING for the victim. The victim is already dead and is not helped by more killing
Violates international human rights laws
Most civilized societies do not use the death penalty
Capital punishment is not a solution to anything
Captial punishment is handed down unfairly. There are cases where serial killers were given life in prison. The mentally ill, the impoverished and non-whites were given the death penalty far more often.

It's awful that this kid was shot down...no matter the reason. No one is served by committing another murder in that poor boy's name. He is a 14 year old boy who does not have the ability to comprehend in the same way as an adult and we cannot and should not treat him as such.

Our society can't keep treating human beings like old baggage. Whether it's prison, murder, the streets or whatever...our society throws people away like they're the trash.

You and others can call state-sanctioned murder justice to your heart's content...but it does not change the fact that it is a barbaric act that belongs in the distant past.

*********

Now, when it comes to this kid that killed his classmate...the kid has to take some responsibility. There is no denying that. I also think his parents, his classmates, his school and the rest of society has a portion of the blame as well. Our society continues to treat gays horribly and much of our youth carries those same attitudes. Given that he's only 14 years old I also understand that he does not have the same abilities as an adult to understand the depth of his crime. It's very possible he's figuring that out right now. Depending on how a judge handles this...we should find out exactly what's going to happen to this kid.

In the end, I can't see how killing this boy for murdering his classmate serves anyone. Fact is, I can't see how capital punishment serves any kind of useful purpose in our society.

[JI7]

1. i think it was just an emotional reaction

not something the person would actually support.

[cynatnite]

2. I have reason to wonder about that...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3076048&mesg_id=3079013

I would normally expect it to be a gut reaction, but in this case, I don't believe so.

[Toasterlad]

52. You Are Correct. It Was Not a Gut Reaction.

I am 43 years old. I have spent my entire life living in a society that is constantly telling me that there is something wrong with me. For the first half of my life, I believed it. It wasn't until I met other people like me that I realized that there wasn't something wrong with me, there was something wrong with society. From then on, I became acutely aware of instances in which society had failed me and others like me.

I have heard thousands of stories of others like me who were killed, maimed, tortured, turned out of their homes, unjustly imprisoned, fired from their jobs, separated from their loved ones, vilified from pulpits, brainwashed, and driven to suicide, all because someone else thought there was something wrong with them.

Let them call us names. Let them tell us we can't marry, or that we don't deserve protection from hate under the law. Let them use us as political bait to ensnare the ignorant and hateful. These are causes we can rally around, that we can fight with reason and education and understanding.

But there is no reasoning with a hate so strong that it compels someone to shoot another human being in the head because he or she is "different". I have no pity, no understanding, and no patience to grant such people. I am not interested in what made them the way they are. I am not interested in what can be done to turn them around. And I am not interested in your judgment of me. I want their threat removed from society. I do not want them to ever be in a position to kill any of my brothers or sisters again. And I want vengeance for my slain family.

[hlthe2b]

57. Hate does not cure nor prevent further hate....

As instinctive as the emotion might be, the result will never be "satisfactory." Sadly, it only diminishes the "righteous"....and does nothing to bring about the end of such horrendous acts.

[Midlodemocrat]

62. I'm sorry. I hate that my GLBT friends have had to suffer like that.

Truly. I can only imagine how hard your life has been and it makes me filled with sorrow.

Killing this child will do nothing to ease your pain. There will always be another bigot ready and waiting in the wings to fill his shoes.

We need to enact legislation that gives everyone equal rights and start educating. Teaching. Teaching. Teaching.

Hell, my 11 year old took someone to task on Stardoll.com the other day because of her homophobic postings. Tolerance CAN be taught. It has to be taught.

But, none of that lessens your pain and I'm sorry for that. I also don't believe from what I have read of your postings that you truly wish that kind of harm on this child.

peace.

[Toasterlad]

64. Thank You, Midlo, For Your Good Opinion Of Me.

However, I don't look at this kid as a child: I look at him as someone who murdered a young gay man for no reason. I don't wish him pain; I wish him death.

I appreciate and respect your opinion, but like so many, I think you're looking at this from the point of view of "what purpose would this kid's death serve?", and finding it pointless. I believe you're right: his death would not be an adequate deterrent for would-be murderers. It will not bring back the boy he murdered. And it will ultimately not ease the pain of his parents and family. But I don't really care too much about those things. I think this kid should be killed purely and simply because he deserves to die for what he did.

Despite my flowery post above, mine HASN'T been a life filled with pain: I come from a loving family who always accepted me for who I was, even before *I* knew who I was; I have many loving and supportive friends, I work in a place where I am not harassed and my rights are protected. I have no complaints beyond those of any gay man living in a liberal corner of America. However, as I said above, I am acutely aware of what has happened to many thousands of others whom I have never met, but whom I consider, in a very real sense, my family. And I am tired of hearing stories of their suffering. I am EXHAUSTED by the endless articles on their deaths at the hands of hateful monsters. And consequently, I have no patience left.

I hope that I haven't caused you to think too poorly of me; you are one of the posters on DU whose opinion I really do value, and whose commitment to me and mine is self-evident in your posts. I wish I could tell you that I will come around on this issue, and move past what you undoubtedly believe is the hatred in my heart, but I don't feel that I'll ever change my mind about monsters like this murderer. I hope that this "flaw" doesn't keep you from believing in me, otherwise.

[Midlodemocrat]

65. You haven't caused me to think poorly of you. At all.

I can completely emphathize with your exhaustion on these issues. I believe we all have issues that resonate with us like no other. I know I do.

I also can completely understand why you wish death on this boy. For me, I can't condone the death penalty for anyone. Just something in me that won't let me do it.

I don't condemn anyone for feeling differently about it. We are all entitled to our opinions and our beliefs.

My not wishing death on this boy doesn't transcend my horror at what he did. I have a 15yo son and I can barely imagine the grief Larry's parents went through and wouldn't wish that on anyone. What this boy did was horrific and he deserves to be punished severely for it. I just don't think the death penalty is the answer.

[JerseygirlCT]

92. Yes, exactly. Well said. nt

[cbaker3122]

71. My Rules as a Gay Man

I am 38 and have had the same experiences. I have been laughed at, had rocks thrown at my car, chased by thugs, teased mercilessly in grade school, been called the most vile names you can think of and had some of the most disgusting things said to my face about what I might do in the privacy of my bedroom. Yet I am one of the lucky ones as I have seen others treated much, much worse. When you reach a certain point in your life where you just realize that evil is there and cannot be changed, you decide to make some simple rules to deal with it, and here are mine. If you are a homophobe, you are dead to me, if you hurt a gay person because he/she is gay, you should be in jail, and if there is anything I can do to make that happen I will. And if you kill a person because he/she is gay, you should be dead to society too, which means a date with a needle or a certain kind of chair.

You can call it harsh, but walk a mile in our shoes or think about the dead like this poor boy who will never get to walk again.

[JerseygirlCT]

91. Killing this kid doesn't remove the threat at all

It simply gives those who have carefully taught that child to hate more reason to continue in their hatred. This is a perfect situation where violence would only beget more violence.

The cancer is the hate - you can't kill hate with more killing. You have to root it out and destroy it with education.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

94. Don't mean to disagree but,

it does remove him as that threat.

David

[JerseygirlCT]

96. It removes one child

And probably ensures that all his family and friends - the same people who taught him to be a violent hater - feel absolutely victimized and justified in their continuing hate. And then, how long until yet another child is killed for the crime of being gay and breathing?

It perpetuates a chain that has no possible good end result.

The adults in this killer's life failed him. They infected him with deadly hate. He acted because of that infection. Killing him doesn't get anywhere near the root problem. It's like cutting the top off a dandelion... not going to do much to deter its growth. You've got to try to get to the root.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

98. I don't disagree with you about dealing with it at the root.

My only point is that killing him does in fact remove him from being a threat. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that HE won't kill anyone else.

David

[JerseygirlCT]

102. I know. I understand that

And I understand the anger, too.

It's just that to me, the bottom line is that killing someone for killing someone is not the answer.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

108. We disagree, I don't believe it's always the answer.

I don't believe it's the answer in this case or ever in the case of a child, the mentally ill or the mentally retarded. I do though believe that some people are deserving of the death penalty, cases of murder and torture, the murder of a child by a sexual predator, extreme cases such as these. That's personally though, I'm not sure that State applies it fairly in a lot of cases. Just an opinion though.

David

[Bluenorthwest]

166. well then

Perhaps we should take out his entire miserable excuse for a family. Or at least his Sanctified Union of a set of parents.

I am opposed to the death penalty always, but your logic is not very strong. Will his family and frineds feel that a long prison sentance is a victimization of the murdering spawn? How trivial would his punishment need to be to please people who would teach violent hate? If they are as you assume, I'm sure a $50 fine would make them feel justified in continuing hate. How do you think they justified it for the 15 years before the murder, during your assumed 'teaching process'?

They may be animals, but the parents also might be fine people with a sociopath for a child. It happens. Is rushing to guilt by association- his friends you count in as well- really a good thing? How can you assume his friends and family are as he is? Are all families exactly like one another?

I just don't see how we can adjust punishment enough so as not to offend the family and friends of criminals, nor why you would think that irrational hate springs from some rational and justifiable cause.

[JerseygirlCT]

177. I think when you're dealing with a child, you hold the parents

responsible to some extent. Do you think they were unaware of his feelings? And if they were, what does that say?

I'm opposed to the death penalty, period. I'm especially horrified by what reads as blood lust toward a kid. Killing the killer solves nothing in the long run. It doesn't teach anyone tolerance, it won't save the next child in the next community who is targeted by this kind of hate.

Every single person who encounters the sort of hate and bullying the victim was subjected to has a responsibility to step in and confront the behavior. That's where I see the parents, the extended family, friends, school, etc. as needing to be responsible.

Kids aren't born homophobic. I'll never buy that. They have to be taught, and encouraged. And it can all start oh so "innocently". I've heard otherwise perfectly nice people make remarks they think are funny... I stop them. Had someone, or enough someones, stopped this in its early stages, might we not have one dead child and one facing a pretty awful fate? Wouldn't that have been the better way?

I'm not at all saying that criminals' friends and family cannot be offended. I'm saying treating a child like an adult, and killing a killer does nothing, nothing at all to stop a very bad chain reaction. It has to stop somewhere.

[Toasterlad]

103. You Could Say The Same Thing About Locking Him Up, JerseyGirl.

No matter what you do to him, his hateful family are going to blame the gays for the unjust persecution of their son. They're going to hate ANYWAY. They ALREADY hate. There's nothing you can do to this kid to make the situation worse.

Therefore, since his victim deserved to live, and he since he deserves to die, kill him and be done with it.

[JerseygirlCT]

111. Yes, I suppose you could

But there's always some hope of understanding. And I just cannot be convinced that killing for killing is ever justified, Toasterlad. I'm sorry - I never can go there, and even moreso when the killer is a child.

This was an unspeakable act. But the fact is that the killer was taught to hate. And his hate was acceptable to the society around him. Why wasn't this stopped at the bullying? All the adults around who knew and allowed his behavior are responsible. That's probably a pretty large group of people. They failed that poor child killed for who he is - failed him horribly, utterly. But they also failed the child groomed to hate.

[timtom]

3. From a broader sociological perspective

it is a way for society to bring closure to a capital crime.

This is pure speculation on my part. I have never researched this in any way.

[opihimoimoi]

4. Most likely, He will go on to kill again....

[cynatnite]

9. So put him to death because you think he might kill again?

There are serial killers who have killed multiple times, but yet are given life in prison.

No one knows what the future will bring. At least with a 14 year old kid there is a much better chance of rehabilitating him than there is of a 40 year old man who kills.

[opihimoimoi]

49. He killed somebody...life for the victim ended....intentionally killed...

He meeds prison for a long time...like 40 years...

[Quantess]

18. True. He probably would, unless ...

what would you suggest?

[opihimoimoi]

50. 40 years....in a system that treat rehabs disturbed minds

[Donald Ian Rankin]

139. Utter nonsense

I don't know exactly what the recidivism rate for murderers is, but to suggest that it's over 50% is utterly ludicrous, and the boy's age makes it even less likely that he'll reoffend.

[Toasterlad]

152. Good. Let's Put Him in Day Care With Your Kids, Since He's So Safe.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

160. Was that intended not to be a complete non-sequitur?

If so, I'm afraid it failed.

For what it's worth, I would have no problem with children of mine (assuming I ever have children) being cared for by an adult who had killed someone when fourteen, if they had been successfully rehabilitated. I would not be happy with children being entrusted to someone who had committed murder as an adult, no matter what had happened in the intervening time, though.

[Toasterlad]

153. Dupe.

[Mind_your_head]

5. The boy that was murdered was most likely a 'better person' than

the killer boy could ever hope to be. Isn't it always that way? (with victims and their aggressors)

Still, one would need the wisdom of Solomon.....

[zonkers]

8. That boy murdered seemed like such a nice kid just trying to be himself. I

think the murderer should get at least 10 years somewhere, minor or not. He gets out at age 24. Hopefully he would have finished high school/college or vocational studies in custody. He would get out and hopefully lead a productive life under probation for a few years.

[Mind_your_head]

15. As I said, it would take the "wisdom of Solomon"

A truly (seemingly) wonderful person was murdered. And society is poorer because of his untimely death/murder. We'll never get "his presence"/influence back.

Yet the dickhead that murdered him will run free (eventually). Maybe that's what's wrong with our society?

I'm against the death penalty, but ehm, "life" in prison might be an appropriate consideration.

[Withywindle]

125. I'd say there's no 'most likely' about it.

I'd say that someone who doesn't recklessly take someone else's life in cold blood is BY DEFINITION a better person than anyone who does.


I'd have a lot more sympathy for child killers if their victims were any less dead than people killed by adults.

[elleng]

6. HIS FAMILY

is entitled to a heckuva lot of the blame, IMO.

He may never have the abilities of most adults to understand the consequences/depth of his crime if his family somehow condoned it, as I suspect (knowing nothing about the facts.)

[pbca]

7. Life or something close

Many years in prison followed by, as a condition of parole, psychiatric counseling (for as long as he lives) with regular updates to the court about his evaluation and re-incarceration if those evaluations are sufficiently negative.

[Lex]

10. maybe it was just the Twinkies he ate

hey, it worked once before . . .



RIP, Harvey Milk

[bluestateguy]

11. Life in prison

he should die in prison as an old man, alone and hated.

You asked an honest question, so I gave you an honest answer.

[sofa king]

12. Whatever the case, there are two victims of the crime.

The shooter will almost certainly spend a good chuck of his life in prison, and going in at such a young age, one wonders if he'll ever learn to live in normal society. That's if he's not executed, or otherwise meets an untimely end in prison.

If we could rehabilitate just a percentage of the juvenile offenders out there, and have at least some of them go on to lead productive lives, that might be considered a net gain.

But dare we ignore those harmed on the mere chance that a criminal can be saved? I'm afraid I don't see it happening.

[Mind_your_head]

20. Wait.....there are not two victims of the crime

The only victim is the boy who was murdered.

Anything the happens to the shooter/murderer after that is a product of his initial action. The murderer set the wheels (just or injust) in motion and will reap the benefits or penalty of such.

[kevinbgoode]

26. Exactly..what choice did the murdered victim get?

Frankly, they should go after who instilled it into the perpetrator's head that he could hate enough to murder someone.

[sofa king]

73. He's still a victim of his own actions.

The shooter's life is almost as ruined as that of his target, and we as a society lose them both as productive members.

You're right that anything that happens to the shooter is a product of his own initial action, just as anything that happened to the target was a product of pulling the trigger. He took two people out when he pulled it. Two victims.

The commonality between most of the various definitions of the word "victim" is simply that someone is harmed. That can be by someone else's choice, one's own choice, or by fell circumstance. The kid who pulled the trigger made the choice; it does not make him less of a victim.

And no, I don't feel anything particularly strong in favor of the kid who did this. Rather, I'm trying not to feel vengeful. Vengeance never seems to solve much, but it certainly creates new problems.

[Luminous Animal]

13. Compassion and education...

I've spent a fair amount of my life conducting anti-racist/anti-homophobic education. There is hope for this kid. He shouldn't even be in prison. The American prison system would only reinforce his bigotry and hatred.

[Bluebear]

14. He shouldn't even be in prison!?!?! What "hope" is there for his victim?

Sorry, the time for his anti-homophobic education was before he murdered someone in cold blood.

[Luminous Animal]

22. Well..

that didn't happen. Did it. Nobody stepped up to protect the victim and nobody stepped up to protect the perpetrator against his bigoted upbringing.

Do you even know any 14 year olds? They are remarkably educationable. Good people, compassionate people could totally turn this kid's life around. Rehabilitation could turn this narrow minded murderous angry child into a loving productive human being.

[Bluebear]

24. When he's a loving, productive human being, let society know.

Until then I can't fathom that you don't want him confined.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

95. Are you sure of that?

How sure? Sure enough to let him come live in your house without locking up the kitchen knives. Are you positive he's not already a "sociopath"? Are you positive you can teach him remorse and how to gain a conscience? I think we should err on the side of caution with people who have shown a propensity to murder people they don't like. Try him as an adult and make sure we tack on the 10 year mandatory federal gun charge, any hate crime stuff we can get him on also and make him serve them all consecutively. Then in 50 years you can teach him anything you want.

David

[LostinVA]

137. You can't rehab a sociopath

[Mind_your_head]

19. Yeah, teaching someone (who still lives) and killed another that :

sorry that you're so wrong about people who are born black or gay don't MEAN/INTEND to be born ~ that ~ way, ya know. You were very, very bad to murder them.

The American prison system would only reinforce his bigotry and hatred.

At 14, to actually DO such a thing....to actually MURDER someone in cold blood like that. I think prison might be an appropriate place for this guy. Hey, he won't have to actually face his demons of bigotry and hatred. They'll be justified and reinforced...and there (in prison) he shall stay. It's a tragedy. But, you know the 'dead guy' can't speak for himself anymore....and he would probably tell you that BEING DEAD BEFORE MY TIME REALLY SUCKS.....all he was DENIED.

[Luminous Animal]

23. Indeed...

let's create a monster. Let's torture a child with beatings and being anally raped to teach him a lesson. And then, let's let him loose on society. Let's give him hell on earth. Because, after all, that is what Jesus would do.

[kevinbgoode]

29. The monster was already created

and the victim doesn't get the opportunity to have lots and lots and lots of hours of re-education, does he? He got..what...a minute? Maybe less to even know his own life was being taken? And that singular act, which the victim had absolutely no control over, doesn't matter beyond a "Hey look...we can murder a fag and all we'll get is sent to rehab school"...

[Mind_your_head]

30. Wah????

Where do the beatings and being anally raped stuff figure in here?

First off, you're trying to portray an alleged murderer (albeit, one who hasn't been tried or convicted ~ yet here we go :eyes:) as a "tortured child who will be met with beatings and anally raped".

Well, if that's what life is like in turkish, sorry....americas prison's today than perhaps we should take a look at that? Or mebbe you're just attempting to construct an illogical and immoral argument?

Could it be? :think:

[LostinVA]

141. It could be worse

Read Hottest Housewife's post below.

:crazy:

[DutchLiberal]

46. "Anally raped".. Yeah, why DOES that happen in American prisons and not in Western European prisons?

Why are American prisons way below international human rights' standards?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

97. Because we are a much more violent society, not proud of it, but it's true.

The studies say that prison rape is about violence and control. Sad isn't it.

David

[Dorian Gray]

63. He murdered someone...

he's not an innocent little sweet fourteen year old. He took a gun to school and pre-meditated the cold-blooded murder of another 14 year old child.

He deserves JUST punishment.

I hope that along with said punishment he will receive oodles of counselling. I truly hope he can be rehabbed. But, he calculated a MURDER. It wasn't an accidental killing during a fight. I believe that he shot him IN THE HEAD during class.

[pitohui]

69. as the other poster says, the dude is already a monster

we should work for change in our prison system, beatings and anal rape of prisoners should NEVER be tolerated

nonetheless, this 14 year old is no child, he is a teen who made the choice to kill another for the crime of being different, he does not belong in our diverse society where there are so many different people for him to prey on

a light sentence teaches him that if you kill an outcast, your crime is not so serious and you can soon be on your way after a few years, is that the message we want to send, that he was "right" to kill and that we are giving him a token punishment only because we have to cater to public outcry and that, next time, when he kills another outcast, he should just be careful not to get caught?

capital punishment is fine for this hate crime, as is life in prison

releasing this person after a few years for killing a gay kid is just teaching him that, yeah, if you choose your victim wisely, you can have the thrill of the kill and not pay the full price -- that we agree with him that some lives are not worth so much as some other lives

not the message i would care to send if i were the judge

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nomorenomore08]

162. Whoa... No question this kid is vile, but that's a little too much schadenfreude even for me...

nt

[baby_mouse]

187. Anal rape's good revenge and forced feminisation isn't?

Just curious...

[LostinVA]

138. No -- keep him in juvenile until he's an adult, then put him in adult prison and NEVER let him out

The boy IS a monster.

[mainegreen]

146. He should never leave prison.

Even if there was hope for rehabilitation, I doubt he deserves it.

Fourteen year olds who are not mentally handicapped know murder is wrong.

Period.

Age is no damned excuse here.

[Speck Tater]

16. He is obviously an innocent victim and we should all feel sorry for him.

At least that's the conclusion from this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3075795
concerning any child accused of wrongdoing.

[Quantess]

21. Oh, which thread? An entirely different topic?

OH....MAH...GAWD...!!!1!
Did you hear that? Any child accused of wrongdoing is going to be tasered, says fiziwig. Maybe the kid ate a grape in the supermarket, maybe the kid pulled a leaf off a plant, maybe the kid threw his tray onto the floor.

fiziwig is warning us of the imminent tasering. :rofl:


Upon edit: Fiziwig, if I misunderstood you, I am sorry. It happens a lot that what I assume what someone says turns out to be wrong. Let me know.

[NanceGreggs]

17. This was a fourteen-year-old kid.

Think back to when you were fourteen.

Did you understand the sometimes far-reaching consequences of your every action? Did you always act soberly and thoughtfully, never in anger or haste?

If you've answered either of those questions with a 'yes', you either have a faulty memory, or you are lying to yourself.

This is a kid - he needs help, and he needs to accept responsibility for what he's done. But as a kid, not as an adult.

[donheld]

27. One of the saddest parts of our society in my honest opinion

We live in a throw away society, and that includes children. Yes what this 14 year old did was horrible, but as you say he was a CHILD. I can't believe kids can possibly deserve this kind of consequence for actions. There's got to be a way to reach out to them and try to rehabilitate them in some way. It breaks my heart every time I see a kid like this get life without parole. Most of us progressives are against the death penalty. However, far too many approve of throwing away forever kids. It's a sad commentary on our society IMHO.

[JerseygirlCT]

105. I'm afraid as a society we find it easier to toss

than to really deal with the problems. I imagine (I don't know, this isn't my field) that the amount of intervention necessary to guide this kid back from where he had to be to commit such an act would be pretty huge. There's a lifetime of hate-teaching in that kid, I'm sure of it. Generations, even.

As a parent, I can put myself in the shoes of the victim's parents, certainly. I'd be beyond angry and hurt in a way that would never, ever heal. But are we as a society looking for punishment only -is this about retribution or about valuing even the life of a child who committed an unspeakably horrible act?

[malakai2]

28. I answered with a 'no'

But let's take a closer look here. At age 14, did you understand that murder was by definition the killing of another human, does have far-reaching consequences, is not a solution to one's problems, and is in fact illegal? Is it reasonable for a person, even one at age 14, to justify murder as the result of passing anger or hasty judgment? I think it's perfectly acceptable to answer yes to the first question and no to the second.

Also, was this really an act of passing anger or hasty judgment? It seems there was a well-established pattern of teasing and bullying here, based on a sustained hatred of someone easily identifiable as "other"-in this case, a homosexual. That individual fought back in a way that seems only to have enraged the killer even more, to the point that he planned to kill the victim. This wasn't a sudden explosion of hot-headed rage on the playground, it was pre-meditated murder. Not exactly kid stuff.

Even if you want to argue that young teens have not fully developed control of their emotions sufficient to refrain from making poor choices in the moment, you can't really make it apply here because this wasn't a heat of the moment action. It was planned in advance, such that the killer located a weapon suited to his task and later brought it to school for the sole purpose of shooting the victim. Plenty of time for a normal, rational person, even a teenager, to think through the situation and remember, if he somehow had forgotten, that murder is illegal and carries dire consequences. This individual knew what he was doing; I see no reason to spare him the consequences.

[kevinbgoode]

35. thank you...

This is where I get very frustrated. A 14 year old isn't responsible for his actions, but in some states (like Georgia up until a year ago) they'd let the kid get MARRIED without parental permission if he got a girl impregnated. Now that act allowed them to be an "adult" and "responsible" but when they take the life of another human being it isn't just playing around. . .

i agree there is more to this story...and the failure to address the other boys who taunted this kid and bullied him is scratching the surface - the parents need their heads examined for using whatever their "deeply-held" beliefs about the rights of another person.

[NanceGreggs]

85. I am not advocating that he be spared the consequences ...

... only that those consequences be proportionate to the fact that he is a child and, as such, cannot be expected to think, react, or weigh his actions in the same way that is expected of an adult.

[malakai2]

101. And I am saying that the premeditation suggests otherwise

Advanced planning of this crime shows that the perp knew what he was doing, what the effect would be, and therefore, knew what the punishment could be. That he may not have fully understood what it might feel like to be stuck in prison for the rest of his life really doesn't matter-many competent adults do not fully understand that in advance either. Doesn't mean we give them 4 years of juvenile detention, soft therapy, and release with sealed records.

The appropriate range of punishments ought to include whatever an adult suspect would face.

[NanceGreggs]

109. And therein lies the problem ...

"The appropriate range of punishments ought to include whatever an adult suspect would face."

This is a child, not an adult. You can fold, spin, staple or mutilate that any way you see fit - but it doesn't change the fact that a child cannot, and should not, be held to the same standards as an adult.

We have laws that say just that - and for good reason.

[JerseygirlCT]

112. Honestly, their brains just don't even work the way an

adult's does. They're just not quite wired up right yet.

There is a reason that sentencing is different for children, I agree.

[kevinbgoode]

31. Well, if he's a kid, then his parents are responsible, aren't they?

this crap just happens much too often now. Another gay gets murdered, and we're told..."let's just rehabilitate the poor perpetrator" without looking to find out WHERE he got the messages he could kill in the first place, or that it was right for him to hate another person so much that he could end his life.

Then the others look and say "Well hey....it's still A-OK for the straight boys to murder a gay boy if the gay boy "likes" him - cuz they'll just send us to rehab school if we say we won't do it again."

The gay community lived for DECADES with murders that were seldom prosecuted, with perpetrators (ADULT ONES) who got off the hook or had their charges REDUCED because they killed a GAY person and the GAY deserved it. . .with the outrageous injustice of the "gay panic" defense and the bodies dumped into creeks and lakes with, allegedly, no "leads" on the murderers.

And here we have a right wing which is adamantly against having to change their beliefs (after all, their big deal is to force MY COMMUNITY into re-intoctrination centers)and I'm supposed to trust the system to hand out justice? This just always hits me as another example of where my community is constantly asked to be the human sacrifice until the rest of the murderers, rapists, violent attackers and religious fanatics someday MAYBE catch-up.

[JerseygirlCT]

106. The parents, the extended family and friends who taught

the kind of hate that leads to these acts, the community that accepted it, the society that continues to accept it. All responsible, absolutely.

The question really is how do we dig into the roots of the problem and start to attack it there?

[tkmorris]

33. I agree with you Nance...... up to a point

It seems odd to me how some people (not saying you are one) can see that when a child commits a crime there is a need for an attempt at rehabilitation, and yet no such understanding is directed at adults. You say that a 14 year old does not understand the far-reaching implications of their every action. I agree. I would further assert that there are a great many 20, 30, 40, even 50 year old committers of crimes who don't really understand theirs either.

It has been a real puzzle to me that we put people convicted of crimes into the most awful places we can, with block walls, and limited access to sunlight, or education, or anything else good in the world for years at a time and somehow expect them to emerge as BETTER people than they were when they entered. Let's face it. We make no attempt whatever to rehabilitate adults convicted of crime, we do NOTHING to attempt to teach them the error of their ways, we simply PUNISH. Ask any parent, there comes a time when punishment without any attempt to further understanding of WHY a thing was wrong, and of better ways to accomplish goals, is simply counter-productive. You are merely building walls between you and the person you are attempting to reach.

Societies treatment of it's less law-abiding members is precisely the same. If you simply treat them as sub-humans for 10-20 year stretches in the name of justice, what chance do you have to make them functioning members of society? None. You create ENEMIES of society, even more so than they ever were before. It's uncivilized, and worse it's just plain stupid, and I have no hope it will end in my lifetime.

[Mind_your_head]

34. You are so right in what you say here

I cry b/c it's sooooooo simple and yet it's not (apparently?)

Thank you. For what it's worth.....bookmarked, saved, and printed out on real paper and saved in a book that I keep :-)

[tkmorris]

37. I'm heartened that there is someone out there who sees it too

Thanks friend.

And uh, mind your head. It's an ugly world out there.

:toast:

[DutchLiberal]

47. I completely agree. Why aren't Democratic presidential candidates saying these things?

On the most fundamental points, like this one, the points that *define* society, they think exactly like Republicans. So why does everybody thinks it matters so much whether a Democrat or Republican enters the White House? In the long run, they both want to sustain the "throw away society" you speak of.

It's time *these* fundamental, underlying themes get a place in the political debate. Did you know both Obama and Clinton support capital punishment?

[JerseygirlCT]

107. They do? That's very, very disappointing to read. nt

[Hottest Housewife]

129. US Capitol Punishment differs from European Capitol Punishment

Historically, Europe used Capitol Punishment against large groups of people for religious and political differences. Whether it was the St Bartholomew's Massacre or The Final Solution, Europe has had a long history of state sanctified killing against dissident or minority groups.
For all its faults, the United States does not have a similar history. Capitol punishment has been administered on an individual basis in this country for individual deeds.

Of course, Obama and Clinton support the Death Penalty. They could not be elected otherwise.

[DutchLiberal]

147. But there's the problem: if they are not willing to lead, nothing will ever change.

Instead of telling people what they want to hear to get their votes, they should offer a platform and ask people who agree to vote for them. Otherwise, what difference is there between them and Republicans?

Clinton and Obama are supposed to represent a progressive party. Then let them voice progressive ideas.

[Echo In Light]

55. Well stated, tkmorris

[Chovexani]

75. Nance, I like you, but this is absolute bollocks.

Yes, everyone acts like a ball of hormones and stupid at age 14 at some point or another. God knows I did my fair share of stupid shit at 14 (and I've posted extensively about it on a couple of occasions). However, most 14 year olds manage to keep from murdering people. Most 14 year olds, even the homophobic little prats, understand that acting out violently is Very Bad, if for no other reason than it'll get their asses into trouble.

I don't know what the answer is (I am anti-death penalty in all cases, and I have serious issues with sticking a 14 year old in adult jail), but I'm really disturbed by a lot of what I'm seeing in this thread. 14 year olds are old enough to know right from wrong, they are old enough to know WTF gay bashing is. This is not a 9 year old charged with arson because he was playing with matches. He viciously murdered a precious boy, because he was gay.

The message I'm getting from the multiple threads on this tragedy is the same one I get from society: queer lives don't matter, queer children are to blame for their own victimization, and the murderer deserves our "compassion". Funny that when a bunch of jocks and preps get gunned down at school, people want to throw the perps under the jail. Let a couple of Christians get shot at school and the world comes to a stop. But let an LGBT child get killed and "boys will be boys" and "he didn't know what he was doing" and well maybe the little queen shouldn't have been mincing about the classroom.

I do not share my brothers' and sisters' blood lust on this, because like I said I'm against the death penalty across the board. But I share their rage at what happened and join the call for vengeance. Why? Because that could have been me--my GED is proof of the hell I went through in HS for being openly queer. We are all Lawrence King. We are Matthew Shephard and Sakia Gunn and every other LGBT person who loses their life to hatred. In every conceivable way we are made to be second class citizens in our own country, we have to fight tooth and nail for basic rights that straights take for granted, and we are shat on even in death. It has to fucking stop. We have to draw a line as a society and say no more, we will not tolerate this murderous hatred of people. How we do that, I don't know, but it won't stop with throwing this little bastard in jail, as important as that is. Even as we speak there are attempts to strip away the safe school protections for LGBT youth in the California state legislature. Even now, with this boy dead. This is how little our children matter.

I have no compassion for this little sociopath. Let him pay the price for his actions.

[NanceGreggs]

87. If I may?

"The message I'm getting from the multiple threads on this tragedy is the same one I get from society: queer lives don't matter, queer children are to blame for their own victimization, and the murderer deserves our 'compassion'."

Would you feel differently if he had killed a heterosexual child?

This is not about the reasons behind the crime; it's about recognizing that a fourteen-year-old is a child, and is recognized as such when it comes to being able to vote, drink, marry, etc.

A child is a child. And if you honestly believe that the consequences to be meted out for killing a fellow human being should be judged not on the age and attendant immaturity of the perpetrator, but on whether the catalyst for that crime was a hatred for homosexuals as opposed to any other motivation, we will have to agree to disagree.

[Toasterlad]

113. Yet More "Boys Will Be Boys".

This is not about the reasons behind the crime; it's about recognizing that a fourteen-year-old is a child, and is recognized as such when it comes to being able to vote, drink, marry, etc.

And murder; don't forget murder. Because he's only 14 and couldn't possibly know right from wrong, he's not accountable for his crime, and is to be given pat on the head and a stern talking-to. He'll feel bad in four years when he turns 18, and then everything will be all right.

Spare me.

This is EXACTLY about the reasons behind the crime. This little monster killed a child for no other reason than the child was different. Your insulting question is moot: He DIDN'T kill a heterosexual child. This heinous murder wouldn't have HAPPENED if the victim were heterosexual. The circumstances are EXTRAORDINARILY relevant, because that kind of hate doesn't go away. This kid will never be "cured". He'll never have remorse for what he's done. And he should be put down.

[NanceGreggs]

115. Jesus H. Christmas ...

... if you read this as "boys will be boys", you are delusional.

First of all, no one is talking about a "pat on the head and a stern warning" - except you.

"This little monster killed a child for no other reason than the child was different."

And what if the 'difference' was that the other child was a Muslim, a Jew, from the 'wrong side of the tracks', not a member of the country club, a foster child, a spoiled 'only child', etc.?

"This kid will never be "cured". He'll never have remorse for what he's done. And he should be put down."

Put down? He will 'never have remorse'? He will never be 'cured'?

I suppose we should just throw the law out the window, and defer to your 'better judgment' in all matters.

Must be nice to think you actually know what goes on in someone else's head at all times, and therefore should be recognized as prosecutor, judge and jury all rolled into one.

Thank God we have still have a judicial process in this country - which protects society-at-large from people like you.

[Toasterlad]

117. Indeed. You're Safe From Me.

It's only the hateful 14 year olds with guns that we apparently need to worry about. No, I'm sorry...that GAY PEOPLE need to worry about. But that's okay, cause it's just a phase they're going through. They'll stop killing once they're adults.

[NanceGreggs]

118. When anyone talks about ...

... "putting a child down" as though they were a rabid animal, it's time to rethink where the true societal danger lies.

It lies with people who think that way - and actually believe they are righteous in their thinking.

[Toasterlad]

120. Funny....I Thought The Danger Lies With the Madmen With the Guns.

Whatever you may think of me, I've never killed anyone, and I can't imagine any circumstance when I ever will, despite my complete willingness to pull the switch on the little animal that begat this whole debate.

You're free to view me as a monster all you wish, but you'll forgive me if I can't take you seriously while you're fiercely defending the humanity of a kid who shot another kid in the head for no reason. You're not the monster-spotter I'd choose to guard the walls, that's for sure.

My hatred is reserved for people who hate me and mine. Unlike them, I have CAUSE for my hatred. And my sympathy for their spawn ends when they take the life of one of my family.

[NanceGreggs]

121. Yeah, you have a "cause" for your hatred.

Just like Fundies have a "cause" to hate gays.

Just like Nazis have a "cause" to hate Jews.

Just like patriotic Americans have a "cause" to hate Muslims.

And so it goes - and you are obviously too ignorant to know you're a part of it.

[Toasterlad]

122. Wow.

Did the Jews have cause to hate the Nazis? Or should they have just said, "Oh, let's just forgive and forget?"

You really don't have the slightest idea of what it's like to be hated just because you're different, do you? I thought you'd at least make the effort to try. But if the best you can do is to compare my hatred for people who kill gays to the hatred the Nazis had for the Jews, it's pointless to discuss this with you anymore.

Man, what a serious disappointment you are.

[NanceGreggs]

123. Instilling disappointment in someone who thinks ...

... children should be "put down" is something I can not only live with, but be proud of.

[dsc]

134. How dare you

How dare you compare, admittedly strong, hatred for a kid who killed a gay kid for no reason to the NAZI's hatred of the Jews. That gay kid did nothing at all other than exist. Just like the Jews it must be said. Conversly the killer murdered a defenseless boy in cold blood. Shame on you.

[chixydix]

145. There is nothing inhuman about putting down an unfixable sociopath.

You are WAY off base here...you cry for the perp and offer nothing in the way of appropriate solutions. I'd happily put the little bastard down just like I would a rabid skunk.

[Hottest Housewife]

131. Rabid animals at least have the excuse of a viral infection.

And as such have my empathy. I cried at the end of Old Yeller.

Trust me, no tears for this 14 year piece of shit.

[Withywindle]

126. I remember when I was 14, yes.

I shoplifted. I neglected to study. I sneaked alcohol. I got in fights at school. I stole money. I called my parents horrible names. I hit my mother a couple times. I was ruled by my emotions and did a lot of cruel and stupid things.

But even considering that I was bullied badly and there were a LOT of people at my school whose guts I loathed, I can honestly say that the idea of taking a gun to school and putting it to the back of one my classmates' heads and pulling the trigger never even occurred to me as a remote possibility. Hell, my father had guns (law enforcement) and I knew where he kept them, and still...nope. Even bratty, fucked-up, bad-seed teenagers usually have a sort of built-in humanity switch against KILLING PEOPLE execution-style for no good reason.

I think people who don't have that 'switch' need to be locked up for many, many decades because if they've done it once, they'll do it again if they can. I don't care how old they are. I really, really don't.

[LostinVA]

144. Exactly -- the "boys will be boys" mentality of some is appalling

[Withywindle]

184. To me, letting them off on basis of age is an insult

to all the 14-year-olds past, present, and future who somehow manage to get through the traumas of adolescence WITHOUT blowing anybody's brains out in cold blood. Last I checked, that was the overwhelming majority of them.

"Don't kill people. Even if you don't like them. Really, just DON'T." is not sophisticated moral reasoning. A 5-year-old can understand it.

[Hippo_Tron]

25. I'm against the death penalty, period

I think his sentence should depend on whether or not he can be rehabilitated. If he's 14 there is still hope. It should probably be in the neighborhood of something like 15 years minimum and after that it depends. If he is still a danger to others then he should get life in prison.

[provis99]

32. your arguments against the dealth penalty are old, tired, and wrong

to anyone that supports the death penalty. Here's what they'll say:
Executions cost more than life in prison
-because death penalty opponents raise the cost by streching out appeals, obstructing execution dates, not because of death penalty advocates

Innocent may be wrongly executed
-and spending your entire life in prison until dying of old age when you're innocent is better?

It is not a deterrent
-it is to the executed murderer

Life in prison guarantees no future crime
-murders in prison commit plenty of crime in prison. They're already in prison for life, so they've got nothing to lose committing crimes against other prisoners.

Execution does NOTHING for the victim. The victim is already dead and is not helped by more killing
-the victim isn't helped by ANY punishment given to the murderer. So what's your point?

Violates international human rights laws
-this is America. Who cares what foreigners think?

Most civilized societies do not use the death penalty
-so, if you have the death penalty, you are not civilized? Or if you are a (what, a barbarian country?) you have the death penalty? This isn't an argument for or against the death penalty in any way.

Capital punishment is not a solution to anything
-it solved the problem of the murderer possibly committing future crimes, didn't it?

Captial punishment is handed down unfairly. There are cases where serial killers were given life in prison. The mentally ill, the impoverished and non-whites were given the death penalty far more often.
-all punishment is biased. Capital punishment actually shows less bias than does prison sentencing, fine assessment, probation or parole. If capital punishment were broadened, bias in the system would go down.

[tkmorris]

36. I'll bite

to anyone that supports the death penalty. Here's what they'll say:
Executions cost more than life in prison
-because death penalty opponents raise the cost by streching out appeals, obstructing execution dates, not because of death penalty advocates

Innocent may be wrongly executed
-and spending your entire life in prison until dying of old age when you're innocent is better?

Perhaps not, but there are hundreds of cases of people sentenced to long terms, or to life, who have later been released when their convictions were found to be faulty. There has NEVER been an executed person resurrected once they were found to be innocent.

It is not a deterrent
-it is to the executed murderer

Life in prison guarantees no future crime
-murders in prison commit plenty of crime in prison. They're already in prison for life, so they've got nothing to lose committing crimes against other prisoners.

True enough, but there are better solutions to that problem than legalized murder by the society that convicts them.

Execution does NOTHING for the victim. The victim is already dead and is not helped by more killing
-the victim isn't helped by ANY punishment given to the murderer. So what's your point?

The point is that often arguments for capital punishment are based upon the victim deserving that their killer be punished in this fashion for one reason or another. As you say, the victim isn't helped in any way by ANY punishmnet, making the argument ludicrous.

Violates international human rights laws
-this is America. Who cares what foreigners think?

I do. I live in a society of human beings that I value equally as much as I can. That is not altered by some arbitrary geographical line in the sand, creating more and less important members of my society. To me, there is no such thing as a "foreigner", merely a fellow human that isn't a United States citizen.

Most civilized societies do not use the death penalty
-so, if you have the death penalty, you are not civilized? Or if you are a (what, a barbarian country?) you have the death penalty? This isn't an argument for or against the death penalty in any way.

You are correct, it is rather an argument of semantics, ie a civilized country cannot by definition use the death penalty, and any country that does loses the right to call themselves civilized. This is a matter of opinion, but I happen to share the opinion.

Capital punishment is not a solution to anything
-it solved the problem of the murderer possibly committing future crimes, didn't it?

Again, so does life in prison accomplish the same, except for the aforementioned crimes against fellow prisoners. As I said, there are better ways to cope with that. Furthermore, your argument could as leif be used to punish speeders. It prevents them doing it again, doesn't it?

Captial punishment is handed down unfairly. There are cases where serial killers were given life in prison. The mentally ill, the impoverished and non-whites were given the death penalty far more often.
-all punishment is biased. Capital punishment actually shows less bias than does prison sentencing, fine assessment, probation or parole. If capital punishment were broadened, bias in the system would go down.

An argument without any evidence whatever to back it up. Every statue or image of the "Justice" figure shows her with a scale and a BLINDFOLD. Justice is supposed to be unbiased, and that is what we should always strive for. If the death penalty is applied in a biased fashion it behooves us to allow that to be corrected.

[malakai2]

39. Well, issue #1...

Innocent may be wrongly executed
-and spending your entire life in prison until dying of old age when you're innocent is better?

I think it's a question of due process. A man exonerated 30 years into a life sentence can be released. Had the same man been executed 20 years prior to exoneration, correcting the situation would be impossible.

[malakai2]

42. And issue #2...

Most civilized societies do not use the death penalty
-so, if you have the death penalty, you are not civilized? Or if you are a (what, a barbarian country?) you have the death penalty? This isn't an argument for or against the death penalty in any way.

This would be a matter of congruence. It's difficult for a collection of people (broad society) to argue that murder is wrong, but that capital punishment is acceptable when prescribed by 12 people in a courthouse. Both entail individuals choosing to kill a person, either through formal sentencing or informally deciding said person deserves it. Both require unanimity at some level, but substantial percentages of people not immediately involved in making the decision would disagree that killing is appropriate. So in both cases, you have a small number of people deciding to kill another person against the wishes of many or most people, yet in one case it's a heinous crime and in the other a celebrated legal instrument. Most civilized societies recognize how difficult it is to philosophically separate the two, and have done away with capital punishment.

[varkam]

43. A response

Executions cost more than life in prison
-because death penalty opponents raise the cost by streching out appeals, obstructing execution dates, not because of death penalty advocates

There's a reason for that, though: due process. Also the execution itself is quite costly.

Innocent may be wrongly executed
-and spending your entire life in prison until dying of old age when you're innocent is better?

You can exonerate and release someone who has been wrongly incarcerated for twenty years. You can't exonerate and release someone who has been executed.

It is not a deterrent
-it is to the executed murderer

So is life imprisonment, provided that they do no escape. But the argument usually is that CP is a societal deterrent to capital crimes - which it is not. States with the DP actually tend to have higher murder rates than states without it.

Most civilized societies do not use the death penalty
-so, if you have the death penalty, you are not civilized? Or if you are a (what, a barbarian country?) you have the death penalty? This isn't an argument for or against the death penalty in any way.

It could be.

Capital punishment is not a solution to anything
-it solved the problem of the murderer possibly committing future crimes, didn't it?

So does life imprisonment, again provided that they do not escape.

-all punishment is biased. Capital punishment actually shows less bias than does prison sentencing, fine assessment, probation or parole. If capital punishment were broadened, bias in the system would go down.

That sort of misses the point though - namely that capital punishment is biased, especially if you happen to be black or hispanic.

[selador]

38. i am all for the death penalty

but not for 14 yr olds.

[Elspeth]

40. How did the kid get a GUN into the school?

If a kid in LA Unified brings a butter knife to cut an apple, the kid gets suspended for having a weapon. How did this 14-year-old get a gun into the school?

As far as the killer himself goes, he is a minor and should be imprisoned until he is 18. He should also undergo counseling in prison and possibly medication.

[bridgit]

41. DU's a little slow on the uptake, this sadness occurred in my state a month & a half ago

[DutchLiberal]

44. A DU'er who gives such an answer, has no business being on a progressive board.

I advice him/her to take his/her stuff elsewhere, to FreeRepublic or Bill O'Reilly's web forum.
Better yet, such a person should travel back 500 years in time, when such answers were still acceptable.

[Toasterlad]

51. Thanks, Mr. Moral Conscience!

I'm grateful that you took the time to pass judgement on me, considering how busy you must be judging all the hundreds of other posters. Lesson learned, believe me! In the future, I'll try my very hardest to remember that we must all think alike and share all the same opinions, so we can avoid being like the Republicans.

[DutchLiberal]

78. If you are the one who said those horrible things about the kid, you alreadt ARE like a Republican,

sir.

[Toasterlad]

80. Yes, 10 Years In Prison For a Murdered Gay Teen Is Much More Democratic.

F you and your twisted morality.

[DutchLiberal]

82. No, throwing away a TEEN like trash because he got brainwashed by a corrupt society is YOUR idea of

morality?

:puke:

[Toasterlad]

86. The Teen IS Trash. How's About Instead of Killing Him, We Send Him to Live With You?

He'll be bringing along his gun, and his hate. Good luck rehabilitating him. And thanks for your compassion.

[DutchLiberal]

148. It's about time you took some anger management classes.

What's moral about your solution of killing another person? You want to kill this KID. You want to murder a child-murderer. Can't you see how low you have stooped? You can't say this and claim moral superiority. You can't have it both ways.

[Toasterlad]

151. I'm Not Claiming Any Such Thing. YOU'RE the One Who Brought Morality Into This.

Keep your morals, and give me justice. And while you're at it, keep your feelings about what I do or do not need to do to yourself. I'm not the slightest bit interested in the opinion of someone who has more sympathy for a murderous animal than an innocent gay boy.

[DutchLiberal]

154. The dirtiest trick in the extreme right's book and you use it. Congratulations!

"I'm not the slightest bit interested in the opinion of someone who has more sympathy for a murderous animal than an innocent gay boy."

Well, this tells me all I need to know about you. You aren't interested in facts and arguments. You will use every dirty trick to 'win' a discussion. I thought I head Bill O'Reilly talking. I hope you're proud of yourself.

Where's the justice in murdering, by the way? You murder the murderer: you're a murderer. Is that justice? Then we should murder you too, et cetera.

(By the way, it was YOU who brought morality in it with your misplaced sarcasm in your initial response to me.)

[Toasterlad]

156. Silly Dutch Person! Republicans Don't Care About Gay Kids!

Seems like you've got a lot more in common with them than I do. In your view, a gay boy's life is worth 10 years in prison at the most.

Hope you never have any gay kids yourself. It's generally not acceptable for parents to view their children as more or less disposable.

[DutchLiberal]

163. You're disgusting. Enjoy my ignore list.

:puke:

[Toasterlad]

173. Enjoy Your Piety, Compassionless Jerk.

[DutchLiberal]

192. The irony is Stephen Colbert (from your sig) would roast and despise you...

...for your bloodthirst and Medieval lust for vengeance on a 14 year old kid. You don't know what compassion is. I know. No matter how you try to frame me.

[Toasterlad]

195. Aren't You Supposed to Be Ignoring Me?

[DutchLiberal]

197. Well, I never pushed the ignore-button before... But you are SUCH a little pest, that I HAVE to...

Bye bye. :hi:

[LanternWaste]

167. You appear to have a penchant

You appear to have a penchant for putting emotions, words, and hyperbole into the mouths of others.

[Toasterlad]

170. He Said He'd Give The Kid 10 Years.

Those were HIS words. 10 years for one gay life. But you're right about the emotion part; I stuck that in. I thought SOMEONE should feel sorry for the murdered boy.

[LanternWaste]

191. only phrase of yours on this board that is suspect

Well, if you think that's the only phrase of yours on this board that is suspect, you may want to re-read some of your own statements.

"I thought SOMEONE should feel sorry for the murdered boy." See, that's another one-- the direct implication is that you are the only one with empathy towards the lad. Hey, if you get some self-validation off of that, great. But we both know that you're being disingenuous (at best).

[Toasterlad]

196. It's Called Sarcasm. You Might Want to Look Into It. Or Did You Need the Stupid Red Cloud?

I see lots of sympathy for the poor dead kid in this thread, even lots from the vast majority who DON'T agree with me that the murderer should die. I don't care if people agree with me or not, as long as they GET THE OUTRAGE. If someone thinks the asshole should spend the rest of his misbegotten life behind bars for what he did instead of frying, that's their prerogative. But I take serious exception to people treating the little animal like he's a VICTIM. There's only one victim in this case.

Spare me your boo-hoos on behalf of this worthless piece of shit.

[LanternWaste]

199. It's also called hyperbole.

It's also called hyperbole. And melodrama. And a host of other names.

But, sure-- you're the only one here who possesses any sympathy for the victim.
:sarcasm:
('cause the tag exists)

[chixydix]

165. How odd that in all your rhetoric you have yet to volunteer to have this kid come live with you.

Do I detect a twinge of hypocrisy here? A manifestation of the well-known NIMBY syndrome? Or just a purely phony feel-good package of bullshit...? Which is it?

[LanternWaste]

168. Possibly the poster...

Possibly the poster would simply like to see justice rather than vengeance done.

[DutchLiberal]

193. This is nonsense. Where did I advocate such a thing? Do I have to respond to absurd questions?

Either discuss in a normal way or shut up. But don't try to derail the debate in this Limbaugh-like way.

[DutchLiberal]

45. I'd say give him 10 years in prison and good counseling.

Well, if it happened in Europe. American prisons are barbaric.

[booley]

48. Justice is partly counted by how we treat those we despise

What this child did was despicable.

This child is a murderer. He did it out of hate.

He reminded me and every other gay person how we could be killed just because someone didn't like our existence.

And yet I find the idea that this child (who despite his actions is a child) being executed or placed among adults where he would only become even more dangerous abhorrent.

Maybe it's just me and my hippie Neo-Pagan ways with a large dash of Catholic Sermon on the Mount upbringing. But it's always seemed that the true test of compassion is extending it to someone you have every reason to hate.

There's been enough pain. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting. And if we can't ever forgive, the all we do is create more pain.

I am not excusing what this child did (if you want to see what that looks like, go to Freeper land where they talked about this. It's rather disturbing). But I just can't see any good that would come from executing this child.

[aikoaiko]

53. life in prison, of course

:shrug:

If he rehabilitates while in prison, then someone can make a documentary about sad pathetic choices and he can feel good that others might learn from his sad pathetic life.

[dsc]

54. Life in Prison with no parole

[asthmaticeog]

56. That killing sent a message:

"If you're different, you'll get yours." Whether the killer even realizes it or not, the killing was done partly to keep other freaks in line, whatever kind of freak one may be.

I hate how justice system is always being perverted into a vengeance system, but the bullied kid in me wouldn't mind this little murderer's punishment being of the type that sends a message back in kind.

[Echo In Light]

59. I know. It's always tempting to respond in kind, especially when you consider how...

...in so many of these instances the non-conformist {of whatever stripe or capacity} is completely outnumbered, while the bullying assailant has a chorus of hateful supporters and adoring cheerleaders willing to spin, justify and trivialize on behalf of their ilk. Also, anyone ever caught in the bad end of this equation quickly realizes how silence = consent, irrespective of denials.

[AlertLurker]

58. Fry 'em up.

If you are willing to violently end someone else's life, you should be willing to give up your own. The fact that this is so obviously a hate crime leaves no room for doubt for me, even though the killer is 14 years old. He knew what he was doing and should pay with his life.

I don't know if his death will SERVE anyone, but it WILL rule out a re-occurance.

That being said, the only thing I actually like about capital punishment is the 0% recidivism rate..

[Dorian Gray]

60. Emotional reactions

are normal from people. I doubt that the poster truly wanted the 14 year old kid's castrated bits to make a tour from school to school.

And it is because of those emotional reactions that our justice system is so important.

I don't think he should be executed, but he should be tried as an adult and remanded for life.

[ulysses]

61. I genuinely don't know, but I do know

that he shouldn't be executed.

[lonestarnot]

66. Box punishment with intensive therapy. No death penalty! NEVER!

[pitohui]

67. i don't have a problem with humane execution of this person

if execution is more expensive than life in prison, which i seriously doubt, then it suggests to me that prisoners are not being fed or cared for properly because otherwise this just couldn't happen, stop and think about it logically for a moment -- we should certainly change the system so that prisoners are decently fed and receive decent medical care and education/employment rather than being fed slops and used as cheap labor

if there is no doubt that this person is guilty, well, age 14 is certainly old enough to know that you don't kill somebody because they're different, i don't see why juveniles should have a free kill

my main objection to capital punishment is that we know through DNA and the innocence project that people are just pretty much randomly convicted of stuff they didn't do, and you can't unfry somebody once they've been fried, but if there is truly no doubt in a particular case, i don't see the need to house and care for a murderer forever when we don't even provide decent housing and medical care to poor people who have committed no crime

if you think a 14 year old boy can't understand whether it's right or wrong to torture or to kill, then you are yourself a danger to society promoting an evil idea that will lead to the deaths and harm of many others, DECENT people have an instinctive empathy with others and certainly by the first grade anyone who isn't hopeless already knows that killing and injuring others is wrong -- much less by age 14

do you really think a 14 year old has no conscience, because if you do, please don't have children, please don't teach children, please don't be around children EVER if that's the message you want to send -- kids are like sponges and they too often live up (or down) to expectations

[slackmaster]

68. Gulag

[marions ghost]

70. This event is so disturbing...

another case where ideology (I hate your kind) becomes the justification for wanton taking of an individual's life. The victim is dehumanized and made a receptacle for all that general hate. The really scary part is that others who hate gays will say, "fine with me." They will condone the killing (and still go to church on Sunday), even if they wouldn't do it.

I agree that the death penalty (or any other punishment) does nothing to prevent this crime in future. Nothing at all. The perp should be treated humanely and given the chance to atone, but really he cannot be expected to be rehabbed beyond a certain point. There have been enough cases where lost souls struggle back to having a point to their lives that they can teach us something about their insanity and their patterns of behavior. But I am more concerned with how to create a society where such killing is not condoned by others. No matter how good it may feel for us to vent about what punishment the perp should receive, it makes no difference to the neanderthal mindset that prevails in this society.

About the only deterrent I could imagine for this crime is to hit the family of the kid where it hurts. He obviously comes from a family that does not value human life. But I'm sure they value money very highly. They should be made to give restitution in terms of money, goods or services to the family of the victim. And I mean as much money as can be legally drained out of them. This doesn't do much for the family of the victim, but it does hurt the family of the perpetrator. The burden of proof that the family had nothing to do with producing such a monster should be on the family. If they provided the weapon they are even more responsible. The family, in arguing their case could point to societal influences.

If this is not a 'progressive' point of view, then tell me who DOES take responsibility for the actions of this child in our society? Or do we just let this kind of thing continue when it is undermining our schools, communities, our nation? Don't we have any right not to put up with such threats in our schools? Isn't looking the other way just as bad as those who condone the killing because they 'hate gays?'

[SidDithers]

72. It's a difficult case with no easy answers...

he committed one of the most heinous crimes imaginable, with an obvious hate component to it. But, his relatively young age is also factor that should be considered.

I know that I'm against the death penalty in all cases, so I would rule that out. Beyond that, I just don't know.

Sid

[BlooInBloo]

90. Yup. In a better world, thought would be given to what the best outcome at this point...

.... is possible, and go for that.

Of course that world is not the world we live in. The world we live in is one where DUers want to take the kid's balls off and and wave them triumphantly around.

[roamer65]

74. Two choices.

1. Life in prison without parole.

OR

2. 4-5 years of documented, REQUIRED work in an HIV/AIDS hospice. If he does not comply or even farts the wrong way, then right into prison he goes.

[Hottest Housewife]

132. Would you want a murderer at your deathbed?

Someone dying in an AIDS hospice...and, "Oh, yeah, the 18 year old sweeping the floor outside your room, he executed a gay classmate by shooting him in the back of his head."

People dying from HIV are not here for sub-human freaks to atone their sins upon.

[Toasterlad]

133. So Very Well Said.

:thumbsup:

[applegrove]

76. Just send the fucker to jail. That is where he belongs.

[Rex]

77. No idea, where do you start with a case like this?

14 and already a murder. Yikes.

[BlooInBloo]

88. Yup.

[alarimer]

79. He needs to be sent away for life.

I am sorry but there is no redeeming some people, no matter how much the bleeding hearts want to believe there is.

At the very least he needs to do more time than juvenile detention until age 18. Probably at least 20 years after that in an adult facility.

[Thickasabrick]

110. I agree - I think he needs therapy though and I don't think you get

that in prison.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

81. Murder is murder. Whether done by an individual or the state.

"An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind." Mohandas K. Gandhi.

[ncabot22]

83. He should be tried as a minor

not an adult. I think the best thing for him would be to be incarcerated until he reaches 21..during that time, he should be given psychological treatment.

I don't think anyone under 16 should be tried as an adult. They aren't adults, even though this kid's actions were insidious and destructive.

[dysfunctional press]

180. i couldn't agree more. i think it's DISGUSTING when minors are charged as adults.

and a national shame.

[Irishonly]

84. I Just Don't Agree With The Death Penalty

The death penalty should be abolished again and I passed my litmus test for it twice now. Although this may be an unpopular opinion I don't think a 14 year old should be tried as an adult. He has to be held responsible and be sentenced to a youth authority and hopefully the governator hasn't completely gutted the financing so he can get counseling. I am at a loss for words to express my sorrow that a teen was murdered for who he was. Society is to blame and society must change. I don't want much I guess. The MSM tries very hard not to cover the hate crimes done to GLBT citizens and until awareness is really achieved it is going to keep happening.:cry:

[JerseygirlCT]

89. I completely agree with you

And I hold all the adults in the young killer's life responsible, as well. You're not born with that sort of hate; you have to be taught.

He's still a child himself, barely able to really comprehend what he did. Killing him doesn't solve anything, it just keeps the pain going. Education is the long-term solution. For this child, for his family, for the school, for the entire community.

[readmoreoften]

93. I could care less. I'm more concerned about the millions of other violent, anti-gay minors

And I wouldn't worry about him too much, the kid seems to have plenty of supporters.

[malaise]

99. This is a tragic story

I do not support the death penalty and do not support treating teenagers like adults. He needs to be sent to a Juvenile facility where he can be helped. No doubt he killed for his own fear fueled by society's hate for homosexuals.

[Firespirit]

100. I am pro death penalty, but only if there's proof, and never for kids

By proof, I mean things like DNA from the accused that can't be otherwise accounted for, multiple eyewitnesses, video, and such.

But as I said, never for kids. If for no other reason than that minors don't even have full civil rights in the U.S., so they shouldn't get this punishment that takes away ALL of a person's rights. (That's not the only reason I'm against capital punishment for kids, but it's one of them.)

[Fumesucker]

104. Father forgive them..

For they know not what they do.

With those words the Christ begged forgiveness for those who tortured Him to death.

Although I'm not gay I was different enough growing up to have suffered considerably at the hands of bullies, for a long time I wished to have vengeance on them.

I no longer feel that way, I see now that they were dealing with their own demons.

As much as we say differently, we actually live in a culture which celebrates violence. The only way we can change that is one mind at a time, starting with our own.

I'm reminded of the saying: "Don't tell me you're a Christian, let me figure it out".

[mitchtv]

114. forgiveness is for the victim(s)

society should damn him. Life/no parole No lienency cause it was only a gay boy

[Fumesucker]

119. I find it interesting

That those societies which are less punitive..

Generally have less violence.

[DutchLiberal]

149. THAT is a fact. You can't convince supporters of capital punishment with facts.

(Or supporters of throwing kids in jail for the rest of their lives.)

Facts are nasty things to them; they get in the way of their emotional blood-thirst and lust for vengeance.

[Fumesucker]

171. Yes, obviously it is a fact

Or else some revengehead would have debunked my statement by now.

The question I think everyone is missing is this:

I wonder what the *victim* would have wanted to be done to or with his killer?

The victim sounded like a gentle soul to me, I find it hard to believe that he would have wanted blood vengeance.

[MilesColtrane]

116. If he's found guilty by a jury, then he should get 45 years to life with no parole.

...the first four in juvy, the rest in federal.

[DutchLiberal]

194. Juries are bought and paid for; they get manipulated, starting during pre-selection.

The jury-system is one of the reasons American 'justice' system is unjust, racist and corrupt.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

124. He should be treated far less harshly than an adult who committed the same crime.

I have seldom seen a set of posts that disgusted me more than the ones on this thread baying for the blood of a fourteen-year-old child.

Fourteen is - just - old enough that I think it's reasonable to expect him to accept some moral responsibility, and to try and punish him, but only just, and it should be treated as a massive mitigating factor that he's not a responsible adult.

[Hottest Housewife]

135. The only blood of a 14 year-old in this thread is that of the victim.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

142. No, that's simply not true.

This thread is *full* of people calling for the boy to be murdered in revenge.

[DutchLiberal]

150. Give it up. The people want vengeance, not a rehabilitated productive member of society.

They much rather pay for a lifetime of supporting a person in prison, than have that person be rehabilitated and contributing to society. The second option is better and more useful for everybody. But hey, it doesn't answer to the people's lust for blood...

[MrSlayer]

127. He should face the hangman.

That's what should happen.

[Vidar]

130. Life in prison--no chance of parole.

[LostinVA]

136. He's a sociopath and a danger to society -- he should never get out

Keep him in a juvenile facility until 18, then he goes to prison. I don't think people like him can be rehabilitated.

[Zuiderelle]

143. I agree. He should spend his entire life considering what he did.

And serve as an example. Just like ANY murderer. Perhaps if he was 6 or 7, even 10, there might be some hope that rehabilitation could work, but not at 14. It doesn't even matter if rehabilitation works in my opinion. He murdered someone in cold blood and with extreme malice. There can be no correct punishment except for life in prison. He can get an education there and live his life fully in the confines of prison. I'm happy to have my taxes pay for it.

In fact, they can kick out a whole lot of drug offenders and there will be plenty of space and money to support him.

[CitizenRob]

155. I grew up gay in the town next door to this one.

And I can tell you first hand that not only did this kid learn this from his parents, he learned it from his teachers, and from school officials.

In my high school (in the town next door, same county) the principle EXPLICITELY stated in offical school wide memo that couples for all school dances had to be of opposite sex mixtures.

In my senior year the American Political Systems teacher showed Rush Limbaugh's TV show as part of the curriculum (no left counter balance of course) and one day even brought in the Christian Coaltion For Family Values' video on the "Homosexual Agenda." The CCFV's video was an hour long "documentry" on how homosexuals are trying to molest children, enjoy eating fecal matter, are disease ridden, and undeserving of basic civil rights because they are mentally ill. This teacher was never sanctioned.

The one out gay kid in school (not me) would literally be stoned by his classmates. The school did nothing about it and he eventually dropped out.

THIS is Ventura County California. Hate filled, intollerant, arch-conservative counter balance to a perceived liberal threat of neighboring LA county.

[CitizenRob]

159. Look at the thinking of the monsters in this county...

The Ventura County public that would blame Larry King for getting himself shot.

[dsc]

161. cripes that is horrilble

if you know where he is at today, please let that gay guy know at least one person is thinking of him.

[truebrit71]

157. Fry him.

Next?

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Xithras]

164. He's 14. If he spends a decade in prison, it will be too much.

Sorry for the dead kid, but it's been proven over, and over, and over again that CHILDREN do not comprehend consequences the same way we do. And anyone who believes that a CHILD cannot be educated should turn in their Liberal stripes right now, because that's about as right wing a thought as you can get. Children are capable of being educated. This kid, if properly counseled, can overcome his bigotry and become a good human being again. Nobody has presented any evidence that he's sociopathic, only that he is impulsive, full of rage, and raised in a bigoted household. Those problems can be fixed.

Of course, if even us so-called liberals think that youthful lives are garbage and that a child should be locked away for a single poorly though out action, what chance does he have of receiving the help he needs?

I have little tolerance for adults who commit crimes that prey on others. Children are a completely different story.

[dsc]

169. bullshit

and no way in hell you would post this if the killer had been motivated by race. This person killed with pure malace of forethought. He deserves to spend his natural life in jail.

[Toasterlad]

172. "Sorry for the dead kid"

Yes, we can feel your pain.

Edited because I somehow overlooked this jaw-droppingly horrific statement:

"a single poorly thought out action"

The murder of a gay boy, ladies and gentlemen. That's what it comes down to.

[Fumesucker]

174. Murder is murder is murder...

Do you think the victim himself would have wanted blood vengeance on the killer?

Why do you think it is that states without the death penalty have significantly lower murder rates than those with the death penalty?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=168

[Toasterlad]

176. .

Don't know. And no one will EVER know. Because he's DEAD.

Don't care. Debating the death penalty doesn't interest me in the slightest. I just believe that this animal should die for what he did.

[Fumesucker]

181. Here is my point.

If the death penalty somehow causes more people to commit murder than would otherwise do so then your revenge may well lead to the death of another innocent.

The statistics are strongly suggestive that this indeed may be the case.

[dsc]

182. I am against the DP

but please don't say the stats suggest anything. We have no idea which thing is the cause and which is the effect. It could equally be that states which had high murder rates got more bloodthirsty and adopted the DP. Or there could be a confounding variable such as gun laws or poverty. There is no way to know if the DP causes the high murder rate, is caused by the high murder rate, or if both are caused by a third variable.

[Fumesucker]

183. I didn't say anything was proven

Just that it bears some looking into.

It really doesn't take much imagination to see why there might be a causal connection..

Life is cheaper in those places where some killing is legal.

[Thickasabrick]

175. Try the parents and lock them up. Kid shouldn't be killed because

his parents fucked up so bad. He needs to be in therapy for the next 20 years or so to see if he can be redeemed.

[mitchtv]

178. I don't see the DP for a 14 yo

but god knows he is old enough to spend life in prison. Sorry about the dead kid!

[dysfunctional press]

179. he should be charged as the minor that he is.

and let go when he turns 21.

[Withywindle]

185. Nuh uh.

I don't want to share an "open society" with this little shitstain. The scant possibility that he could be "redeemed" is not worth the risk of another innocent life.

Seven years? Is that all a gay child's life is worth to you?

He ought to get more time than that for killing a DOG.


(edited for atrocious arithmetic.)

[dysfunctional press]

190. uh huh

when a minor is convicted of a crime as a minor, they are released when they turn 21. that's the law, and that's the way it should be applied in this case.

children(which the 14 year-old is) do not have the same emotional maturity/judgement as an adult. that's why minors are not charged as adults, nor held to the same standards as adults in a civilized society.

sorry. :shrug:

[Zavulon]

186. I'll forgo the castration suggestion quoted by the OP, but

if this shitbag got the death penalty, I wouldn't shed a tear or lose a moment's sleep. I'm against the DP for one reason only (it's simply too much power to give to any government), but in certain cases I can be convinced to look the other way - for example, in the cases of people like McVeigh, the D.C. snipers (I would have no problem with either being executed, regardless of Malvo's age) and this kid.

If his life isn't ended, it should be at the very least unequivocally ruined and his freedom should be ended forever. A second chance for this piece of shit would outrage me a lot more than a needle to his arm would.

Think of me what you will, but I hope he dies an agonizing death in prison. I'll take a death sentence by the courts as a second choice, though, even though in principle I'm against the DP. Sometimes, scum is simply scum and should be eradicated.

[atal]

188. I wouldn't shed a tear if they executed this 14 yo

Maybe they should wait until he's 18!

His execution should be followed by a Nation wide publication to set an example... Society will almost certainly better with such a strong deterrent against hateful killings.

[DutchLiberal]

198. Facts, figures and statistics from Europe prove otherwise.

Countries without capital punishment (or even life in prison) are the countries with the least murders/killing/violence.

But hey, that is a fact and doesn't satisfy irrational emotions...

[VotesForWomen]

189. life in prison, at a minimum. nt