Help me out with these problems that I have with the national healthcare proposals.

[Ordr]

If our taxes will be paying for the medical bills of our fellow citizens, what is to prevent the government from banning individuals from activities or habits that might cause them to incur more medical treatment than the "average" citizen? Smoking, an easy target for continually harsher regulation, is a personal choice but will be one of the leading causes of cancer which would have to be treated using procedures paid for by taxpayer money. The obesity epidemic, almost entirely due to poor personal habits, will have to be treated with the same money. Obviously there are more cases and situations.

Personally, I really don't want to be paying for the treatments of conditions brought on by the poor choices of my fellow citizens. On the other hand, the government has absolutely no right to step in and say that we don't have the right to personally subject ourselves to "unhealthy" lifestyles.

I guess this is the L(l)ibertarian view of the whole thing but it seems to be a legitimate question for DU.

[Orsino]

1. What's to prevent the government from lapsing into tyranny?

Lobbying by an informed and interested citizenry--same as always.

As it stands, the corporations are disproportionately represented in legislation. Lock them out of health care now, and our voices begin to assume the precedence they should have.

And as far as paying for the poor choices of our fellow citizens, we already do that by funding police and fire departments. And MediCare/MedicAid. The most important question, for me, is: do we want a predatory class of CEOs profiting from health care, or do we want to cut out that overhead, and take responsibility for managing it via our representatives?

[IowaGirl]

2. Iowa has been debating banning smoking in all public places. The help stop smoking hotline has

recently been jammed like never before.

[Ordr]

3. By public places do they mean private businesses like restaurants and bars as well?

[IowaGirl]

6. Yes, because the employees are about 30% more likely to develop cancer from second hand smoke.

[Ordr]

7. I guess I can argue that they're free to choose where they work,

which would reflect on the policy of the business itself if people refused to work there because of that statistic you mentioned. I'm not too sure about that one, though.

[donco]

4. Medicare takes everyone, even the preexisting conditions doesn’t it?

As for your assertions of having a libertarian view, nah, more of a freeper view, welcome to DU.

[Ordr]

5. I'm not sure what "freeper" means, but I'm guessing it's a pejorative.

But either way, that doesn't really answer my question about why we should all pay for the bad decisions of others. That's pretty much what we're doing in this ghastly war with Iraq.

[emanymton]

8. Basic Human Right, Health Care Treatment For All

.

Next to the right of universal free education for all, the jewel in the crown of USA's great free society is the right to universal free health care. It should be clear that a person who does not receive adequate health care, like a person who does not receive an adequate education, does not have the same chances in life as people who get both education and health care.

The staggering costs of education are paid by the people who benefit from being a part of a well-educated society. The costs of universal health care will also be carried by the same people who benefit from a being part of a healthy society.

It is the American way to offer free education because it's the only way to ensure every person gets an education. USA should guarantee universal health care to every person, for the same reason.

Tax payers pay for all health care treatment as part of being a healthy society. It is the only way to assure all receive quality treatment.

.

[Ordr]

9. But we're NOT a healthy society.

And a large portion of that unhealthiness is due to poor choices consciously made by our citizens.
Education is a different issue.

[The2ndWheel]

10. Well, the same education, not an education

Whether it's a corporate run school, or a government run school, it's about everyone learning the same things under either system. It's about molding the perfect unit to fit into that system.

That happens with either healthcare system we get. The corporate system, when all is said and done, wants people to continue being dependent on their product, as that kills diversity. The government system, when all is said and done, wants the power to define life, which kills diversity. Both forms of organization dislike diversity, as actual diversity doesn't allow either to grow and gain more power. That's why the US(or any country) has a single government, and that's why corporations always end up merging with other corporations.

It's about the standardization of life.

[supernova]

11. Well, for one thing

Neither Hillary nor Barrack are talking about changing health care in this country to something resembling the UK's National Health Service nor the French system, which is a hybrid of public and private financing that works well for them.

Both Democratic candidates are talking about making insurance more accessible and affordable for americans. Outlawing the hated preexisting conditions and providing funds to help lower income folks afford premiums.

Hillary's health care proposal - http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/healthcare/

Barack's health care proposal - http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

I genuinely wish we were talking about a US version of the British HS. That would be the humane thing. But we are far from that at this point.

As to your questions:

The obesity epidemic, almost entirely due to poor personal habits,...

Obesity is caused by a variety of factors, not just poor personal habits. It's simplistic to think that everybody who is overweight just simply eats too much or eats poorly.

It has to do with our modern lifestyle, more driving in cars, less chance for exercise. Europeans in general walk much more than we do just because they are within walking distance of parks, entertainment, dining establishments. And they can take excellent public transportation to work. It's not necessary to drive everywhere. We, more often than not, have to drive to just about everywhere. We will have to rethink how we plan cities and downtowns and living areas so that we can get out of our cars more often. Human beings didn't evolve to be as sedentary as we are now in the US. We were designed for movement and physical work. Our bodies and metabolism reflect that.

As for poor eating, that is especially true if you live in a poor urban neighborhood. You likely don't have a good grocery store that sells good produce and other healthy items you can afford. It's cheaper to buy fast and snack food crap because that's what the local stores sell. Again, this is a matter of city and neighborhood planning. People without much money deserve good food at a reasonable price also. Not everyone who lives in a depressed area is a pimp or a drug dealer out on the make.

As for paying for self destructive behaviors, all groups of human beings have them. You will never get away from them. For example the UK has a well-known and well-documented drinking problem. But no one there, that I am aware of, is suggesting they outlaw alcohol and the venerable British pub.

People with drug addictions need care also. Substance abuse should be treated like the health problem it is, rather than a police/criminal problem.

As for a government trying to stop self-destructive behaviors, you can try to provide incentives for people to stay or get healthy, but that's about it.

We all need to be taking care of each other in this society. Not everyone is fully 100% capable 100% of the time. In short, there are aspects of human beings that make us quite frail in some ways. The thing I dislike most about the Libertarian viewpoint is that the owner of said POV usually assumes s/he will never need any help from anyone for anything. It's both selfish and short-sighted. No one likes to be ill, but it does happen. None of us knows our own futures. To think that you can control you life to omit illness or the need for doctors and medicine is to buy into a medieval mindset that illness is the price we pay for some unknown sin, that illness is a just punishment.

If the "treat them as you would treat yourself" argument doesn't work for you, think about my last point. I would gladly give the $800 Bil we annually give to the DoD to an American NHS. And you know what? It won't cost that much. Virtually every country that has national health care spends much less per person than we do and they get a far better ROI than we do.

[Ordr]

12. What an excellent post.

Thank you for taking the time to reply in such depth. I'm on my way to re-read the policies of the candidates.

[Greyhound]

13. You are confusing a single payer system with a government run system.

Single payer; Medical professionals determine treatment and the bill is paid out of common fund pool.
Good

Government run; Bureaucracy determines treatment and pays the bill.
Bad

[magellan]

14. Do you somehow imagine you aren't already paying for these things?

Just because you pay privately for insurance doesn't mean you aren't paying for the "poor choices" of others...including those of our government. Here are the things that effect your premium to varying degrees, in no specific order:

• Development of medical advances and new drugs
  
• Heroic efforts - includes things like premature birth & elderly care, and keeping severely injured patients alive
  
• Inflation - accounts for 1/3 of the cost
  
• Fewer admissions due to outpatient care means hospitals bump up their prices to cover overhead
  
• Social ills - hospitals are flooded with victims of drug abuse (including newborns), assault victims, etc.
  
• The government is shifting costs from Medicare/Medicaid to the private sector
  
• Uncompensated care
  
• Chronic illness
  
• Malpractice suits
  

And please, if we're going to exclude people based on "poor choices" then it's hypocritical not to include those who injure themselves and/or others at a phenomenal rate each year through:

• the influence of alcohol or drugs (prescription or otherwise), or lack of sleep
  
• speeding and other poor driving habits
  
• home improvement and repair accidents
  
• etc and so on
  

edited "influence of alcohol or drugs" for more clarity...