Is admitting you're a homophobe bigoted?

[bicentennial_baby]

I think it does, personally...And here's what the DU rules say:

"When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view.

Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence."


And please, see Skinner's thoughts on this (thank you Blondee :hug:)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1324374&mesg_id=1324374

Seems clear to me :shrug:

[blonndee]

1. Skinner said:

(thanks, Sapphocrat!) :toast:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1324374&mesg_id=1324374

Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts)
Thu Nov-04-04 09:30 PM
Original message

A few words about the discussion of gay rights and related issues.

Edited on Thu Nov-04-04 10:12 PM by Skinner
We find ourselves in a rather unpleasant situation here, because events outside of DU have raised a rather sensitive issue: How does the issue of Gay rights effect the national electoral prospects of the Democratic party?

I will spare you a long discussion about my point of view, and boil my opinion down to one sentence: I believe that some potential Democratic voters are turned off by Gay rights, but on balance I believe that the issue helps us more than it hurts us, and I believe we can win nationally without abandoning our support of equal rights for all. But the purpose of this post is not to tell you my point of view.

The purpose of this post is to remind everyone that Democratic Underground has rules regarding anti-gay bigotry. We expect *all* of our members to support equal rights for all Americans, regardless of sexual orientation.

We have very few litmus test issues on DU. We permit members to be pro-life or pro-gun or whatever, provided that they are generally on our side.

But this is a litmus test issue, because we are talking about REAL PEOPLE, our fellow members of this community. I simply will not tolerate the idea of some DU members arguing that other DU members are not deserving of full and equal rights. This is a moral issue. If DU had existed back during the civil rights movement, I hope that we would all agree that this was not the place to discuss whether blacks deserve civil rights.

But I also need to make something else clear: Democratic Underground is a message board dedicated to the discussion of political issues, including how political issues affect the electoral prospects of the Democratic Party. It is not homophobic to discuss whether the issue of Gay rights cost us votes, provided that you are not discussing the issue in a homophobic way. But it is homophobic to scapegoat gays and lesbians in an effort to answer an extremely complex question like "why did we lose?"

So, where is the line drawn here? What is acceptable discourse and what is not? I wish there were easy answers. I would prefer not to have to make calls like this, because invariably someone gets pissed off, but it comes with the job description.

Keep the following guidelines in mind:

1. We expect all of our members to support equal rights for all people, regardless of sexual orientation. That includes the right to marry.

2. If you want to discuss this issue, you need to do so in a manner that is sensitive to the values of this diverse community. Be as clear and as non-inflammatory as possible in everything you say.

3. If you are opposed to gay rights, you are a homophobe. Don't share that particular point of view here or else you're going to get banned. You've been warned.

4. If your explanation for why we lost is based entirely (or almost entirely) on gay rights, then you are scapegoating and you're probably a homophobe. You might get banned.

5. If you are arguing that the party needs to abandon support for gay rights entirely, then you might not be an outright homophobe, but in my opinion you are not sufficiently supportive of equal rights.

6. It is not homophobic to point out the obvious truth that there are large numbers of people in large regions of the country who are opposed to gay rights. ON EDIT: It also not homophobic to point out that political candidates, particularly those running in conservative areas, may have to compromise on the issue of gay rights for the purposes of political expediency.

7. I believe that we need to focus on the question of how our party can be competitive nationally without abandoning this core principle. I believe that gay rights is not a make-or-break issue for a majority of voters in any state. The opinions of hard-core homophobes notwithstanding, my impression is that most Americans are supportive of the idea that people should be able to live their lives how they like. How do we convince potential voters that they need not be afraid? How do we convince potential voters that they should care more about their job and their health care and their children than about who some stranger falls in love with? These are the questions we need to be asking.

We are right on this issue, I have no doubt. In 40 years, we are going to look back at opposition to gay marriage as something as bigoted and anachronistic as opposition to interracial marriage.

I am sorry if some of you feel I am putting too much restriction on the discussion of this topic. I am also sorry if some of you feel I am not restrictive enough. My goal is to create a place where we can discuss the issues in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

[LostinVA]

2. Of course it does

And, it has NO place on a liberal/progressive message board. There is ZERO wiggle room where civil rights and respect for all people are concerned.

[indie_voter]

3. yes. n/t

[Maven]

4. Yup, and it's against DU rules.

Contrary to the I-can-say-whatever-I-goddamn-want campaign being waged here recently.

See here (thanks to Sapphocrat for the link):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1324374&mesg_id=1324374

3. If you are opposed to gay rights, you are a homophobe. Don't share that particular point of view here or else you're going to get banned. You've been warned.

[Lex]

28. Hmmm. Can't get much more specific than that.

nt

[uppityperson]

5. k&r, need recommendations please.

hell yes.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bicentennial_baby]

11. But, it's good to remind them...

:hug:

[Xipe Totec]

7. My position is this:

as a straight male, I care about nobody's sex life but my own (and my partner's).

Your sex life, whatever it may be, is none of my F**cking business.

[bicentennial_baby]

15. Just an aside but, the sooner you stop defining the GLBT

community by their sex lives, the better...

[Xipe Totec]

18. Fair enough

I think that is precisely my point, and we are in agreement.

[bicentennial_baby]

26. I know what you're saying but

We all need to see each other simply as humans, as fellow people. Gay, Bi, Straight, whatvever...We're all the same under the skin, y'know :)

[Xipe Totec]

43. I totally agree

just to be perfectly clear:

If you were a woman, I STILL would not care to know anything about your sex life, unless you were my partner.

That's the point I'm trying to make, poorly as I have, that your sex life does not matter to me one way or the other. Not because you may or may not be gay, but because you are not my life partner.

Sex is a very private, intimate, communion between two people, and the rest of us have no business meddling in it.

[liberal renegade]

22. i second that ...n/t

[blonndee]

8. K & R. And it was Sapph who found that post I included.

I wanted to post it quickly just in case. :(

[ScreamingMeemie]

9. Yes...and we should be less some people here tonight.

:yourock:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Locking.

Lighten up.

[cboy4]

34. Don't tell us to lighten up freak.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. I was being ironic, douchebag.

Why, I'm not even a mod.

[LostinVA]

46. You tell 'em, Cboy!!!

[Prophet 451]

12. Not necessarily

If someone posts something like "I'm a homophobe, help me get over it", I don't think that's bigoted. That's someone saying they have a personality flaw and asking for help in overcoming it. If they're not asking for help or they're even proud of it then we can call them bigoted.

[uppityperson]

14. That is true. Some need locking tonight though.

[ScreamingMeemie]

19. I love that!

:hi:

[Prophet 451]

13. Oh, and to the Greatest page with you n/t

[LeftyMom]

16. Sure it is.

If somebody posted "I'm a racist. I was born that way. Black people make me nervous" or "I'm racist because a black lady backed her car into me in the grocery store parking lot when I was 8" they'd get the cookie in a hurry. Post the same thing justifying your homophobia and hardly anybody seems to care.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

17. I'd Say There Isn't Even A Grey Area With That One. Undoubtedly Yes.

At least whomever admits such is aware enough to know it, but that still doesn't excuse the ignorance in holding such a position.

Regardless, homophobia absolutely is a form of bigotry so there is no question that someone admitting to being such is also a bigot.

[Duncan Grant]

20. But, but, but...

What if I say this?

I'm an open homophobe.

I do my best, thats all i can do. If you think i'm disgusting, i can handle it. I doubt i'll lose much sleep.

And that's been said in more than one thread by the same person. And you know what?! They're still here -- their posts aren't even deleted! How about that?

[bicentennial_baby]

24. that's my problem....

I understand someone who's 'trying to work on it', I *guess*, BUT, if you're making me or my GLBTQI friends uncomfortable here with your very open homophobia, then....no.

:hi:

[Mr. Ected]

21. My God, I'm New Here. I Had No Idea That the Minutia of My Political Beliefs

Have already been circumscribed by the Administrator.

Am I correct to understand that not subscribing to the support of gay marriage would be grounds for my expulsion from this site?

[ScreamingMeemie]

23. No. Read it again, and then look around at the threads on the front

page...and then chill out. That's ridiculous.

[Mr. Ected]

25. How Am I Misreadying This?

"Keep the following guidelines in mind:

1. We expect all of our members to support equal rights for all people, regardless of sexual orientation. That includes the right to marry." --Skinner

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. Sounds clear to me.

Bigots ain't welcome.

[Maven]

30. You're not.

Deal with it.

[Lex]

32. So, I don't get the problem you have?

nt

[Mr. Ected]

45. Don't Get My Problem?

Narrowing the criteria for membership by narrowing a divisive political issue and requiring all of us to walk in lockstep.

The mere fact that we can convene and are of a similar mindset politically should suffice.

Disallowing debate is in direct conflict with our overall objective.

Am I a bigot? Most certainly not.

Do I subscribe to gay marriage?

I have absolutely no issue with it.

Is the topic politically debatable without resorting to a foundation of bigotry and prejudice?

I would say, yes it is.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. I don't get your problem.

You read those rules, no bigotry allowed, when you signed up.

"Am I a bigot? Most certainly not."

Well then you support the right for gays to marry. So what is the problem?

[LostinVA]

57. There is no "lockstep," there's agreeing to equal civil rights

There SHOULD be no wiggle room for this on DU. It's a progressive/liberal site. People, who don't believe in equal rights should go somewhere else, it's that simple. Who the hell cares if it's "divisive"??? So was voting rights for women, Black civil rights, etc.

[Mr. Ected]

65. Is Marriage a Right?

I must have missed that in civics class.

[blonndee]

68. ***DON'T FEED IT***

[LostinVA]

77. You're right -- sorry -- everyone listen to Blonndee, she's right

Leave it alone. If it doesn't have food, it'll go away.

[blonndee]

84. No, no! I'm not bossing, I'm just trying to not get this thread locked.

And I'm trying to take my own advice. Sorry, I didn't mean to try to boss anyone.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Have you taken a civics class in the last forty years?

Maybe you were sick the day they covered Loving vs. Virginia.

[LostinVA]

72. Yes, it is a right for straight people meeting certain criteria

Would you like to tell me what state doesn't allow marriage between opposite gender couples?

Equal civil rights IS a right under the law of the United States.

My, my -- your bias is showing. You're not very good at this, are you?

[Maven]

78. Yes, it is.

Read Loving v. Virginia.

NEXT

[mondo joe]

83. Yes, you must have missed it.

These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/loving.html

[ScreamingMeemie]

38. this is what I read...in THIS thread.

"When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view.

Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence."

Perhaps you picked the wrong thread to make your "stand" in. :hi:

[Bluebear]

42. And you live in "Cumming, Georgia"....nice touch. nt

[blonndee]

47. And

Mr. Ected. Perhaps?

[Mr. Ected]

Misdirected?

Hardly. I just don't understand force-feeding political points of view amongst people who value freedom of thought.

[blonndee]

61. Well, take it up with the mods or admin, then.

That's what we do when we have a complaint about DU rules or enforcement.

[Mr. Ected]

69. Fair Enough.

In the meantime, it's just good to stir the pot occasionally.

[LostinVA]

79. No, it isn't

[blonndee]

81. "Stir the pot." I thought that's what trolls did?

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

62. Yes, that's me, bigoted to the bone. Welcome to DU, btw, you're making a splash. nt

[Mr. Ected]

76. Since I Agree With 99.99% of the Sentiments of This Group

I guess I just found out what happens when you rock the boat...by asking a question.

Actually, it's a bit disconcerting.

[Madspirit]

74. ...and yes

Actually posting against our civil rights IS against the rules. That includes marriage. Here at DU.

Just like sayin'..."well, maybe we should reconsider that slavery thing" would be against the rules.
Lee

[LostinVA]

35. If you verbalize your opposition to that specific civil right, technically yes

[Bluebear]

Well gee, IS that your view?

Or is this just academic?

[Madspirit]

60. No

...but it puts you on my Ignore list...
Right now.
Lee

[cboy4]

27. I'm scared. The person you're referring to sounded like notorious

serial killer Ted Bundy...you know, quote: "If you think i'm disgusting, i can handle it. I doubt i'll lose much sleep."

That post was like one of those creepy notes sociopaths send to newspapers to try to panic society.

How frightening.

[bicentennial_baby]

36. Awwww, I'll hold you close....

Platonically, of course ;)

:hug:

:rofl:

[The Straight Story]

31. I don't think it is so clear here really:

Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence."

If a person is displaying a distaste with how a particular gay group is doing something how is that any different than saying the same thing about a religious group one does not agree with (note religion was included in the above).

EXAMPLE to be clear: I remember the debate by some in the gay community over 'queer eye for the straight guy' and how it simply fed stereotypes of gays and was in a subtle way bashing gays, while others in the community saw it as a great leap forward as straight people were loving it and accepting of gays in mainstream tv.

Then there is Act up - another sub group which is divisive within the community - is questioning them tantamount to homophobia if a non-gay criticizes their methods and projected results?

As a christian myself I am told I am dumb for believing in fairy tales, etc, and so on and I see christians bashed here all the time (including being done so by myself), but then some deserve to be called on their idiotic behavior. We make fun of christians who are too sensitive over things - and that is allowed here and people do it all the time. Does it make them a hater or christianphobic?

No - but there are people here who openly admit to hating faith and religion. Does that mean they hate me personally and should be ousted? I hope not.

Now I am sure this will ruffle a few feathers, so I got my flame suit on and cracking open the beer - but I see hate (if you want to call it that) here for just about every group in some way or another. Maybe it is just a frustration some people have with the actions of SOME in a group, and if that is the case (and I think it is) should people who disagree be labeled as hating or phobic??

[cboy4]

40. Koo-Koo; Koo-Koo

:crazy:

[The Straight Story]

44. I can't argue with that logic, just too stunning

I wish I were as talented as you were with words!

[blonndee]

52. Me too.

[bicentennial_baby]

48. No, here's what I'm talking about

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=303767&mesg_id=303767

things like this, and other people proclaiming their homophobia, but that they're 'really trying', yet they feel the need to tell us GLBTQI people every time we post threads about our own issues. I don't see the need to bring other OT arguments into this, sorry...

[ScreamingMeemie]

49. Yes, but then again, you think jokes about snickers are funny.

:hi:

[The Straight Story]

54. And that invalidates all arguments?

wow, I did not know snickers bar were that powerful.

[Lex]

51. The old "everyone hates something, so why can't I hate you" argument.

Get back to me when you say you're a Christian and someone beats the ever-lovin' crap out of you for it.

Or when you wonder if you should go into a bar or restaurant you haven't been to before because someone might think you are Christian and be rude or even violent.

[The Straight Story]

63. Not really:

And as far as christians, see the thread today where some folks wouldn't do business if someone advertised themselves as a christian business? Pretty bigoted.

I stand up for gays and their rights, and I vote that way to. But somehow I am a bigot? And yet, when the same things happen to other groups on this board it is acceptable?

[blonndee]

75. TSS, the problem is you participate in the bashing and ridiculing of

some groups and then complain about it happening to others. Either get on board and respect everyone or stop your bitching. Not everything is about whitechristianstraightmales, no matter how much you try to make it so. OK?

[Maven]

58. Religion is an ideology.

It is a set of ideas that are open to criticism.

Sexual orientation is a state of being, an inherent human trait, that defines a subgroup of people.

Please stop conflating the two.

[The Straight Story]

67. I was referring to what Skinner said in the board rules, not my rules

"Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence.""

[Maven]

71. What is your point?

Why not just stay on topic? Was this thread about religion?

[Lex]

82. But, but . . . Christians are having such big problems having

power or equity or rights in this country. :eyes:

[Maven]

Exactly.

They're such a hated minority, and no one respects anything they say.

Unfuckinbelievable.

[Bluebear]

33. Is THIS the original thread?

I'm so confused as to where to respond! ;)

[Lex]

37. LOL!

Bluebear, you rock. :hug:

[The Straight Story]

41. "Everytime I hit reply it creates a new thread"

:rofl:

[Madspirit]

55. Thank-you, thank-you!!

I knew it!

Whoohoohoo...now if we can just get people to abide by this. I am keeping this to post EVERY time it comes up.

My hero bicentennial_baby!

...and once again...<g>...thank-you.
Lee

[bicentennial_baby]

59. No problem....

had to be said :)

[frogcycle]

56. way back 100 years ago when I was young

we had a family tradition if dinner conversation got too contentious. Someone would pipe up and say, perkily, "Let's talk about flowers!"

This sore has been picked at enough for one night.

[bicentennial_baby]

64. No, this is a valid question

We don't all live together, I don't have to go to sleep next to any of you, and I feel we need to discuss this, now.

[frogcycle]

85. thank goodness for the "ignore thread" thingy

enjoy yourselves
buh bye

[LostinVA]

66. Why?

[k_jerome]

73. no. nt.

[sutz12]

80. IMO, admitting you're a homophobe is admitting you're bigoted.. nt

[Ediacara]

86. Locking

From the DU Rules:

Do not talk negatively about an individual in a thread where they are not participating. Do not post messages with the purpose of "calling out" another member or picking a fight with another member.
--
Do not start a new topic in order to continue a flame war from another discussion thread.