Homophobia(c)---Is that what I believe/am?

[ForFuxakes]

Pronunciation: "hO-mo-fO-bE-a"
Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
- ho·mo·pho·bic /-'fO-bik/ adjective.....

After lurking around DU for the past three years, and recently becoming a paying member, I have always been fascinated by the heated discussions concerning GLBT rights and the associated topics. I have tried to look at all points of view and have come up with some thoughts of my own.

1. I truly believe homosexuality to be inherent, that it is NOT a choice. Because otherwise, somewhere along the lines, I had to make a choice to be straight. But I just don't remember ever making that choice.
2. I wholeheartedly believe in equal rights for ALL regardless of sexual identity.

With that being said, I would like to offer the following personal thoughts...

I found for the longest time the term homophobic being applied to one who does not comprehend the GLBT lifestyle offensive. That is until I actually looked it up and much to my surprise, I find that yep...that is me. You see, I have an AVERSION to the homosexual lifestyle. According to Webster the term Aversion means the following:

Main Entry: aver·sion
Pronunciation: Ah-'ver-shun
Function: noun
1 obsolete : the act of turning away
2 a : a feeling of repugnance toward something with a desire to avoid or turn from it <regards drunkenness with aversion> b : a settled dislike : ANTIPATHY <expressed an aversion to parties> c : a tendency to extinguish a behavior or to avoid a thing or situation and especially a usually pleasurable one because it is or has been associated with a noxious stimulus
3 : an object of aversion <inconstancy is my aversion -- Jane Austen>

For me the 2nd meaning applies. Now please keep reading and stay with me. Above I wrote that I believe the GLBT lifestyle to be inherent...just as my aversion is inherent. I do not ask you to change, nor will I deny you any rights (in fact I voted in support of them). So please do not ask me to change. I will listen to and support you in any way I can, but for petes sake, please do not blast me for not liking what you like or for not understanding how you feel. I guess the point that I am trying to get across is live and let live.

I welcome any meaningful conversation and want to re-iterate, I in now way mean ANY offense. Just expressing my thoughts.

[AlCzervik]

1. ok when you say you have an "aversion" to the gay lifestyle are you thinking in terms

of sex? I'm not trying to be snarky i just want to clarify before i comment.

[ForFuxakes]

3. Yes...

When the term Homosexual comes to mind, that is what I immediately think of...

[AlCzervik]

8. thanks for claifying. Ok i'm a straight female and i don't think of people's sex lives

or acts other than my own. Maybe thats just the way i was brought up, my parents always had gay friends so in turn they were also my friends so i always think of people, any people in terms of being a person 1st. Does that make sense, i can tend to ramble.

[LostinVA]

15. That's because you're actually a Liberal

[ForFuxakes]

17. Yes it does...

Perhaps my line of thinking comes from growing up in a small farming community in NW Ohio (35 kids graduated in my class). My dad (when I was younger) always made it well known his thoughts on Gays in general...(funny how he has mellowed out over the years). But now that I think about it, years ago when I worked for the "Bullseye" company, I was somewhat of an outcast. The culture of this company was very clickish, and as such I did not fit in...anyways, I became good friends with a gay guy and we talked a lot and kinda of buddied up to survive the company. With that being said, once or twice I visualized his personal life, but never really gave it much thought. Stay with me, I'm coming to the point here...

When the heated issues flare up here on DU, it always revolves around "sex". The entire GLBT argument in fundamentally rooted in "sex". If it were not, then there would be no issues, b/c there would be no GLBT people...follow my meaning?

[uppityperson]

20. So is the whole "straight" argument also rooted in sex? And wrong about heated issues.

most of my time isn't spent tupping Mr.UP. Odd, maybe I'm not straight after all? (that was a joke)

Do you really see all the heated issued on DU revolving around sex?

Is who you have sex with what defines you or is it just 1 characteristic that people can use to categorize you?

[ForFuxakes]

25. I believe

"Is who you have sex with what defines you or is it just 1 characteristic that people can use to categorize you"

It is both...After all what do the terms Hetro and Home refer to, therefore this is what defines you in this context.

[uppityperson]

35. Most of the time I am NOT having sex but relating to people otherwise.

I'd say a whole lot more time is spent NOT having sex than having it. It you define yourself as "I tup X" then that is who you are. But I spend most of my time not tupping.

[ForFuxakes]

44. But when the conversation turns to

Any sexual orientation issue, you are who you are...are you not?

[mondo joe]

48. Everyone has a sexual orientation. Gays don't have more of an orientation than you do.

:-)

[uppityperson]

50. You mean issues like "should my friends be able to get married"?

Or issues like "wanna f*?" For the first, I am a person first, as are all other people, with inherent rights no matter their color, creed, race, sexual orientation. If the second, I'd say no way.

[gollygee]

22. There would be no heterosexual people then either

because we're just as "about sex" as they are.

[AlCzervik]

34. i think making fun of sex is just one of the ways people try and marginalize the GLBT

community, making it out to be icky and wrong, it's really easy to make fun of things we find icky and wrong. It's about someones life and being able to live it without society pointing and laughing and telling them their life is wrong.

[LostinVA]

38. Very nice post -- thank you

[Oeditpus Rex]

117. Hell, *all* sex is icky and wrong

:silly:

[JerseygirlCT]

84. But none of that need concern you in the least.

What other people do together really isn't any of your concern.

When you look at straight friends, do you find yourself imagining what they do in the bedroom? How about your parents?

Yeah, see. None of your business either way. Problem solved.

[fishwax]

175. I think the heated issues regarding GLBT rarely revolve around sex

I think they revolve around human rights. Can you give an example of a heated debate that revolved around sex?

[tinfoilinfor2005]

79. Seriously?

Maybe I'm a little perverted then, because I do, from time to time, especially when speaking to a couple together, get an instant mental flash picture of what they might look like together sexually. It is not something that I conjure up on purpose, but it happens. Usually I tell my mind to "quit it!", because it really is kind of an invasion of privacy, but sometimes my very active imagination wanders wherever it pleases. And that goes for both straight and gay couples.

[AlCzervik]

92. Seriously.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

113. Didn't mean to sound like I doubted your sincerity.

I sometimes learn things about myself in the course of these discussions and sometimes they surprise me. This was one of these moments. :)

[AlCzervik]

126. i didn't think you doubted me at all, we all think and do different things you know?

[ForFuxakes]

Me too...lol

[donco6]

2. Where did this idea come from?

The idea: "So please do not ask me to change. I will listen to and support you in any way I can, but for petes sake, please do not blast me for not liking what you like or for not understanding how you feel."

I don't seek out women sexually. The idea of being with a woman that way - well, I have an aversion to it. I wouldn't ask a man to even THINK about wanting to be gay if he isn't. Where is this idea coming from?

[ForFuxakes]

5. I see the hostility

in so many discussion here on DU and it seems that some blast others for not feeling the way they feel or being offended by what they themselves are offended by...

[donco6]

12. OK, that's different.

It sounded like you were saying that gays are insisting straights learn to like gay sex. They won't, of course. Anymore than I could like straight sex.

That said, surely you can understand why gays would be upset when straights use gay sex terms as perjoratives, e.g., "I hope Pelosi fucks Bush up the ASS!!!" In essence, isn't this implying that the act of gay sex is a degrading punishment, reserved for the worst liars and con men in history?

[ForFuxakes]

19. Yeah I can see that point of view

And I stand guilty as charged...

Not that phrase specifically, but reserved for child molesters when they go to prison...sorry to present company...

[donco6]

24. S'okay.

But glad you see it now. That's plenty good enough for me.

[Redstone]

4. Well, yeah, you don't have to want to do what someone else wants to do in order to

defend their right to do what they want to do.

Defending the rights of other people do do what they want do do even if you don't want to do it is kind of the American way, yes?

Or at least it's supposed to be.

Redstone

[ForFuxakes]

6. I agree 100%

[gollygee]

7. You believe you were born with this aversion?

You believe your problem with GLBT people is the same as their sexuality?

Does that mean you're not trying to get over it. I mean if a person is ignorant or has problems due to ignorance and is trying to overcome it, I guess that's understandable. But it sounds like you recognize this problem but you think your problem should be understood just like GLBT people should be understood. The issue is that to be GLBT is not a "problem" but what you have most certainly is.

[ForFuxakes]

21. It is not a problem to be gotten over

Just as I do not believe that GLBT people can be "cured"...

What I am saying is please accept the fact that I am who I am and I will give you the same respect.

[uppityperson]

23. So if you accept GLBT, then what is the problem?

You don't HAVE to have every kind of sex, you know. And life isn't all about sex.

[ForFuxakes]

27. the problem as I see it

Is the GLBT folks who chastise me for not always liking or understanding their point of view.

[uppityperson]

37. Do they chastise you for not wanting to have sex with someone of same sex?

Or what view of what is it that you are talking about since it is not just about sex?

Are you talking about civil rights? If so, why should it matter who tups whom or not?

[ForFuxakes]

47. i am chastised

for not having 100% understanding of their views.

[uppityperson]

62. Has anyone else in your life ever said "you don't understand"?

Do you hate the group of people that shares whichever characteristic of them you chose?

[gollygee]

26. That's really just sad

Your problem is not at all parallel to a person's sexuality.

[bicentennial_baby]

9. Maybe you could stop calling it a 'lifestyle'

That would be a good start...Do you consider being straight a 'lifestyle', or is it who you intrinsically are? I suspect the latter...Think about it.

[Redstone]

10. Good point, BB.

Redstone

[AlCzervik]

11. thats an excellent point, it's a life, not a lifestyle.

[ForFuxakes]

29. Point taken...

How would I better reference it then?

[bicentennial_baby]

32. Just call it being gay, or call it sexual orientation...

Just please, don't call it a lifestyle.

[ForFuxakes]

49. Got it...

And noted for future reference...

[LostinVA]

13. I don't give a good damn that you support civil rights for gays

You SHOULD -- you're on a Democratic message board. You're not giving me a gift.

I don't have a "lifestyle," I have a LIFE -- just like YOU do. Being vegan is a "lifestyle." Being gay is being human. I have someone I love who, in the state I live in, can't even receive my 401(k) if I die. How dare you. How DARE you. You can bather about rights all you want to, and pat yourself on the back for being such a good tolerant Liberal, but until you banish every Repub talking point and bigoted thought from your head you DON'T support my life or my rights. THis is no different than giving Blacks the voting rights, but keeping them segregated and away from white women. UGH. STealth bigotry.

An "aversion"? And you refuse to change? Again, how dare you. THis is too sickening to even respond to.

Get some education or/and some therapy, or quit patting yourself on the back.

And, save the "thin-skinned" or "angering allies" comments. I am in NO MOOD. I am so tired of this stuff on DU.

[ForFuxakes]

31. thanks for making my point

[MADem]

14. Well, I really hate beets. Always have. Don't remember "learning" it, either.

But I'll defend to the death the right of others to eat them, so long as they don't try to cram them down my throat.

They can eat them right next to me, too. They can tell me to my face, with beet-smelly breath, how much they enjoy their beets. They can even show me a picture of themselves eating beets, and swap beet recipes in front of me without my getting upset. They can put announcements about beets in my newspaper, open beet restaurants, or even put beet dishes on the menus of restaurants I frequent.

I think beets should have equal rights in the world community of food, so that anyone who likes them can enjoy them freely, without pain, shame, or hiding in the back room to furtively consume them. I just don't want to eat them myself.

I don't think I'm a beetophobic, in this instance. I just don't embrace the full measure of the beet lifestyle, is all.

[uppityperson]

16. Seems your aversion is to 1 type of sex, not a homosexual lifestyle or homosexuals.

You do know that the sex bit, while every bit as everything as heterosexual sex, probably is as important or not to different people as heteorsexual sex is, and that to most of us people in the world, sex is only a piece of our "lifestyle"?

Even if you chose to not have sex with a (similar sex person), do you respect the rights of others to do what they want, so long as no one gets hurt? Do you respect and will you defend the rights of others not just to have sex with whatever consensual partner they want, but to live as they want? If yes, then that rules out homophobia.

If it is just the sex part, do you have an aversion to any other types of sex? If yes to this, then you are just particular about sex, which, if it's fine with you it's fine. If no, then you may just not like 1 thing.

Someone who doesn't like to have sex with animals would not be considered animalphobic or find the animal lifestyle offensive.

[ForFuxakes]

36. Yep...I would agree with that...

Thanks for listening and giving me some feedback...

[smirkymonkey]

128. Why are you so obsessed with sex?

Kind of makes one wonder....:shrug:

[blonndee]

129. I know...the only people I ever hear of being this obsessed with

others' sex lives are people like O'Lielly and Limpballs.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. I don't get it, man. You think gay people all want you to be gay?

You think that to not be homophobic you have to like gay sex?

Most of the gay people I know have an "aversion" to hetero sex. I have a hard time believing that anyone here has "blasted" you because you're not gay and don't want to have sex with men. (I'm assuming you're male)

But here's a question- what about the things you and I take for granted as heterosexuals? Being able to display affection in public, hold hands with our SO's, kiss, etc? Would you consider the sight of two men holding hands or kissing "repulsive"? Would that, to you, be an unacceptable "flaunting" of their sexuality?

Because if the answer is yes, perhaps it would do you well to examine why you think so, if it's okay for those behaviors to be done in public by heterosexuals.

[ForFuxakes]

40. No that isnot what I meant at all

I do not want people to chastise me for not being offended by what they are offended by or by not understanding with 100% clarity what they are trying to do/say...that is all.

[azurnoir]

28. I have always seen homophobia as being similar

to racism or the kind you run in to when you are in an interracial relationship, people will make all kinds of BS judgments about you based on their perception of who you sleep with.

[TahitiNut]

30. There's not enough paper in the world ...

... for me to make a list of the world's problems that would include "Who someone loves." :shrug:

[cali]

33. No offense, but I really don't understand people like you.

When I meet someone I never think first about their sexual orientation or what particular practices they employ in the bedroom. I want to know who they are, not what kind of sex they practice. As for being comfortable in your bias, well, sorry, I don't see that as commendable. Gays and Lesbians are people first and foremost.

[ForFuxakes]

43. When I "meet"

someone, I have the same response...but when the topic turns to GLBT issues then this is where my OP comes into play.

"Gays and Lesbians are people first and foremost"...thanks...I did not realize that...

[Madspirit]

39. Instead of

Instead of looking up "aversion" in the dictionary, I suggest you look up "homophobia" in the DSM. Yup and how would you expect us to feel if what you said was, "I am all for black rights but I have an aversion to blacks." *snerk*

I really suggest the DSM over Webster.
Lee

[Madspirit]

41. Come on straight boy...

Come on, post a thread saying you have an aversion to blacks. See how it goes over.

Coretta Scott King:

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. "But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'" "I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people," she said. - Reuters, March 31, 1998.
Speaking before nearly 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton Hotel,
Coretta Scott King, the wife of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Tuesday called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood," King stated. "This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group." - Chicago Defender, April 1, 1998, front page.

"We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny . . . I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be," she said, quoting her husband. "I've always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy," King told 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton, days before the 30th anniversary of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination on April 4, 1968. She said the civil rights movement "thrives on unity and inclusion, not division and exclusion." Her husband's struggle parallels that of the gay rights movement, she said. - Chicago Sun Times, April 1, 1998, p.18.

"For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people," King said at the 25th Anniversary Luncheon for the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund.... "Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement," she said. "Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions." - Chicago Tribune, April 1, 1998, sec.2, p.4.

We have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say “common struggle” because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination. - Coretta Scott King, remarks, Opening Plenary Session, 13th annual Creating Change conference of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Atlanta, Georgia, November 9, 2000.

"We have to launch a national campaign against homophobia in the black community," said Coretta Scott King, widow of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., the slain civil rights leader. - Reuters, June 8, 2001.

For too long, our nation has tolerated the insidious form of discrimination against this group of Americans, who have worked as hard as any other group, paid their taxes like everyone else, and yet have been denied equal protection under the law.... I believe that freedom and justice cannot be parceled out in pieces to suit political convenience. My husband, Martin Luther King, Jr. said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” On another occasion he said, “I have worked too long and hard against segregated public accommodations to end up segregating my moral concern. Justice is indivisible.” Like Martin, I don’t believe you can stand for freedom for one group of people and deny it to others. So I see this bill as a step forward for freedom and human rights in our country and a logical extension of the Bill of Rights and the civil rights reforms of the 1950’s and ‘60’s. The great promise of American democracy is that no group of people will be forced to suffer discrimination and injustice. - Coretta Scott King, remarks, press conference on the introduction of ENDA, Washington, DC, June 23, 1994.

[Duncan Grant]

86. Thanks for that.

I appreciate your post. :thumbsup:

[uppityperson]

42. Pedophobia (c)? Is that what I am? Seriously, here's a bit of a comparison

I have a child. I have nephews and nieces and friends with kids and know kids at school and friends of my child, etc etc etc. I love interacting with kids of all ages, except angsty teens sometimes. BUT I do not ever want to have sex with a child. The thought of having sex with a 5 yr old disgusts me. I would never ever have sex with a child. So, am I a pedophob? Am I pedophobic because I don't want to have sex with a child, or engage in a 5 yr old lifestyle that includes such sex?

[ForFuxakes]

51. Yes...

I guess you are...that is my whole point.

[uppityperson]

54. You point is even though I have a child, interact with kids, like kids, but don't want to f* kids

I have an aversion to kids? oh. my. god.

[ForFuxakes]

63. Your statement

"The thought of having sex with a 5 yr old disgusts me."

This is what I was referring to...the aversion

[uppityperson]

68. You point is even though I have a child, interact with kids, like kids, but don't want to f* kids

Because I have that aversion to having sex with a child, that defines me as a pedophobic?

From you OP, the definition that you find defining a "---ic" is:
"a feeling of repugnance toward something with a desire to avoid or turn from it <regards drunkenness with aversion> b : a settled dislike : ANTIPATHY <expressed an aversion to parties> c : a tendency to extinguish a behavior or to avoid a thing or situation and especially a usually pleasurable one because it is or has been associated with a noxious stimulus"

You say that because all I find disgusting is having sex with kids, so no matter how much I like them or interact with them, I must have an aversion to them.


Do you realize that if I were to say, for example, fuck you, that I wouldn't actually be wanting to have sex with you? Bye.

[Madspirit]

64. How the fuck

How the fuck is that a comparison. Pedophilia is an illness. Homosexuality is not. Crack a book. The APA, the AMA...etc. took it off it's list of illnesses decades ago. It is just an alternate way of being, much like left-handedness, natural and occurring in every species. Pedophilia is an illness, with, by definition, non-consensual partners. You sound like some right-wing bible thumper..."oh great, next they will want me to accept bestiality." Screw you and the Limbaugh horse you rode in on.
Check the DSM. ...and get a shrink.
Lee

[uppityperson]

71. I know, it is NOT the same, and that is my point.

I am trying to make a simplistic comparison that isn't a comparison, using only 1 characteristic and yet it turns out that I am a pedophilic. Relax, I'm on your side, trying to find out if having an aversion to a type of sex makes me hate a whole group. Peace and I am on you side, drop the screw you etc.

[ForFuxakes]

77. Again...where did I day I HATE

You are starting to piss me off here...

I have an aversion to Homosexual sex...thats it plain and simple!

So for me to say that I understand ALL GLBT issues is on it's face a lie...get it?

[uppityperson]

80. #75 below.

[Maven]

45. Homophobia is learned behavior, not inherent.

Although I won't argue with you--I don't have time.

I have to go get it on with the BF.

[uppityperson]

52. you and your "lifestyle"

I bet Mr.UP wishes he were gay and I were male sometimes since we just don't have enough sex these days. sigh...


:sarcasm: though if people don't get it, why?

[ForFuxakes]

55. Isn't this that same argument

that the GLBT community has fought for years...that you can be "Cured"?

[Maven]

57. Nope, it isn't.

The difference has been explained elsewhere on this thread.

[mondo joe]

59. Big difference: homophobia is proven to be a learned behavior, while the data on

homosexuality all confirms that it's inherent.

That said, I'm not invested in changing you. I care more about rights than feelings.

[uppityperson]

60. Bigotted "aversion" of a group can be cured. As can strep throat.

Sexual orientation can't as what type hair you have can't. I can color or cut or curl my hair, but it will always be the same. I can color or disguise or hide my sexual orientation, but it will always be there, just the same.

However, hating someone because they are black, or Jewish, or gay, that can be cured. Do you see the difference or are you pulling our leg?

[ForFuxakes]

70. Where did I ever say that I "Hate"?

I have an aversion to Homosexuality.

Let me try to explain it this way...

If someone gets hurt (either physically or emotionally) and you see/hear about it, you immediately put yourself into this situation in order to empathize with them. When the issue turns to something that you have an aversion to, it is very hard for you to place yourself in that situation. I try as best I can to understand and in the absence of understanding, I will fall back individual rights. So you see, while I do not empathize in all ways with the GLBT community, I will always support their rights with my vote.

[uppityperson]

75. Changed "hatred" to "aversion". Let's try it again

Bigotted "aversion" of a group can be cured. As can strep throat.

Sexual orientation can't as what type hair you have can't. I can color or cut or curl my hair, but it will always be the same. I can color or disguise or hide my sexual orientation, but it will always be there, just the same.

However, being against someone because they are black, or Jewish, or gay, that can be cured. Start educating yourself and learn that a "lifestyle" is not just who you tup.

[gollygee]

65. Same argument but different situations

A person's sexuality truly is inherent. You call your bigotry inherent but it isn't. You weren't born with it. You definitely learned it somewhere. A person isn't born with opinions about other people's sex lives.

[Dastard Stepchild]

124. Actually... I find that homophobia is a base behavior...

with tolerance, acceptance and understanding being the learned behavior. And I, for one, wish more people would learn it!

I think that it is in our nature to divide, separate and ostracize on the basis of difference. We humans are quite like the great apes in that way. Where I see true, inspiring progress being made is in those people that challenge themselves to look beyond the difference to value the individual dignity of those we encounter.

I'm bisexual, so I guess I'm off to have sex with my husband and then troll the streets for some lady lovin.' We bisexuals are noncommittal sexiacs, don't ya know? :)

[mondo joe]

46. Well, one important point I'd disagree with:

While sexual orientation is by and large demonstrated to be innate and immutable, homophobia is not. People who are homophobic often change, based primarily on knowing gay people. So I don't think your phobia is as innate as you do.

I don't really get where you're coming from, but I appreciate your willingness to come down on the side of equality.

[uppityperson]

53. According to Webster "Lifestyle" means...

the typical way of life of an individual, group, or culture


Do you see "who do we f*" anywhere? No? Then that is not the definition of "lifestyle".

[Lydia Leftcoast]

56. I have to say it

Unless your first thought upon meeting a heterosexual person is to imagine him or her doing it with a significant other of the opposite gender, then the fact that your first reaction to "gay" is to imagine them in the sack with someone of the same gender suggests to me that yes, you are somewhat bigoted.

It's the kind of stealth bigotry that says, "I have nothing against African-Americans, and I think they should have equal rights, but I just don't feel comfortable around them."

It's bigotry because it treats people as members of a group rather than as individuals.

Between academia, the arts, and the Episcopal Church, I have met more than my statistical share of GLBT people. And do you know what? They're individuals. I have held some of them very dear, but others have been mean and underhanded. Just like straight people.

And their "lifestyle"? The anti-gay crusaders in Oregon in the 1990s used to rail about "the degenerate gay lifestyle." At the time, I was subletting part of a house from a lesbian couple. Their "degenerate lifestyle" consisted of going to work at their respective jobs at non-profit social service agencies, coming home, making dinner, and watching TV. On the weekends they gardened. I don't know what they did under the covers. I didn't care.

At my current church, the gay men and lesbians are some of the most dependable volunteers whenever anything needs to be done. If that's the "gay lifestyle," I'm all for it.

Unless you're actually sexually attracted to someone, why should you even think about what they do with the lights out?

[uppityperson]

76. Indeed. Good post.

I'm done with the OP, makes my lip curl. Thanks for this good post

[Duncan Grant]

89. Beautifully said.

That's for putting this into it's proper context! :thumbsup:

[Strathos]

58. It's about respect

That's all.

I don't think you have to "accept" us or "approve" of us or be around us really, but to deny us any of our rights is where I get pissed.

I realize that you haven't said you want to deny us our rights, but the people that I can't tolerate are those that think we're second class citizens.

It's up to people like you to educate people about us and help us bee seen as REAL people and not just oral and anal sex.

We are people.

I've been in a relationship for 14 years. If my partner or I died the surviving partner could lose everything.

That's not fair and for those fucking hypocritical assholes who want to deny us those rights, I hope they too are denied them. AND, any person that uses God as an excuse to deny us those rights is nothing but a raging hypocrite.

[ForFuxakes]

74. Thank You

I wholeheartedly believe that who you chose to live your life with is your business and none of mine. I am happy for you for being in a loving relationship. I will vote against anyone who tries to make anyone a second class citizen.

[mentalsolstice]

61. When I hear "homosexual" I think of lifestyle and culture

I really don't think of the actual sex act so much. I'm a straight woman, can't say that I've ever been sexually attracted to another woman. However, I'm not disturbed or repulsed by such attractions. There are certain heterosexual lifestyles (or cultures) that I'm not attracted to, as well, and if asked to think about them in detail, I would say I'm averse to (as in I'm not sexually turned on by them). There are also certain "ethnic" lifestyles/cultures I probably wouldn't fit into. If I were to really start weeding out everyone different from me, and saying they don't deserve the same equality or human rights I enjoy, well, that's too large of a population for me to be comfortable with. Our family lives are a lifestyle, and as "family" goes, diversity is wonderful.

My point is, don't feel like you're homophobic simply because you're heterosexual. To support gay rights doesn't mean you have to engage in specific sex acts, it just means that you support others in their lifestyle.

[mondo joe]

66. I really wish people would stop with the "lifestyle" thing.

There is no gay "lifestyle".

There are rich gays and poor gays, republican and liberal gays, atheletic gays and couch potatoes, and so on.

There is no lifestyle commmon to gay people.

[uppityperson]

78. exactly, thank you.

this is beginning to piss me off. Not you mondo, but this whole topic. but...but...but...I can't help myself for immediately wondering how this person I am talking with has sex and categorizing them for it. sorry for the rant.

[mentalsolstice]

82. My point is...

there are many lifestyles...in college, I've roomed with African-Americans and Asians who had different "life" habits than I did. I've also been around gays and lesbians for most of my 46 years. When I say lifestyle, I mean there are many variations from the "white, heterosexual, 2.5 kids, middle class, 2 cars, 1 dog, 1 cat, etc." lifestyle. My point is to take the actual sex out of it, and consider single-head of household, blended families, same-sex head of household, and other variations, as simply a way of living and getting by, and deserving of equal rights by our society. Yes, they are different ways of living...but equally successful ways of living.

Personally, one doesn't have to live a certain way to recognize that an alternative way of living is equal.

[mondo joe]

90. I appreciate your recognition and support for equality. But I respectfully submit

that there is no gay lifestyle. I am gay - I have a life. I might have a lifestyle or two, but none are distinguished by being gay.

[mentalsolstice]

106. I agree with you

I'm asking the OP to not consider the actual sex act when determining his support for gay rights. My point is that MOST of us don't look like the "ideal American family". My concept of "lifestyle" is what we come home to and what we're comfortable with...not stereotypes. There are infinite choices to living life. In my case, I'm in a heterosexual relationship, without children, by choice. We enjoy eating out and traveling, which is much easier because we don't have kids.

I'm against stereotyping "gay" lifestyles...however, at the same time, I'm for the recognition of the fact that there are many lifestyles, and they should all be supported.

[Madspirit]

69. My Lifestyle

Let's see. Here's my gay agenda.

I woke up at about 8. Walked the dogs, fed all the animals. Helped my arthritic lover fix breakfast, read the newspaper. My lover...of 15 years, just btw...went to work, went to lunch, went to her second job. I hydrated my 19 year old kitty who has CRF. I took the dogs for a walk again. I watched television for an hour. I posted to one of my groups. I cooked supper. I wrote in my blog. I ran to the pharmacy....etc.

Yeah...how exotic. I can certainly see how you couldn't relate to my lifestyle...what with all those mirrors on my ceiling and the hanging from chandeliers while we have wanton and wild gay sex. NOT.

Jeez.
Lee

[Beelzebud]

67. After the Snickers fiasco, I've just been avoiding the entire issue at DU.

I saw the Snickers ad as a slam at homophobic men. Others did not.

I was slammed, insulted, and berated. I was told my "humanity was in question", and that I was a homophobe.

As someone who supports gay rights, and has had loud arguments with straight friends over this issue, it was a body blow to hear these things over a subjective advertisement.

The heavy handed manner in which some choose to protect themselves actually alienates people who would otherwise be their friend and ally.

From the reaction I've got over that episode, I've chosen to just stay out of the discussions about these issues here at DU. I don't want to say some bone-headed thing and completely set someone off.

I understand why you posted this, and only wish I could state my feelings about this as eloquently.

[Duncan Grant]

81. Not this bullshit again!

"The heavy handed manner in which some choose to protect themselves actually alienates people who would otherwise be their friend and ally."

Let me officially invite you (and everyone else here who feels persecuted by gay people) to not be my friend or ally. Seriously, don't freakin' bother.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[donco6]

93. By the way you keep bringing it up . . .

I'd say you haven't really gotten over it.

[Beelzebud]

96. You're damn right I haven't. Being called less than human, and a bigot

for seeing a subjective advertisement for a candy bar, differently than the majority, pisses me off everytime!

The thing that boggles my mind, is that the way I saw it was a slam at the damn homophobes!

[Maven]

109. So you distance yourself from bigotry

by agreeing with this piece-of-shit post?

"I understand why you posted this, and only wish I could state my feelings about this as eloquently."

:puke:

[ForFuxakes]

94. That ad and the subsequent

fallout is what really got me to thinking about (more of the fallout than anything) this issue. It's seemed like for the past year up til the Superbowl, we were all united in getting the Dems back into power and the whammo...a commercial (a commercial for chrisakes) and we seemed to be ripped apart at the seems.

[Duncan Grant]

112. We're not "ripped apart at the seems (sic)".

Hyperbole. What drama.

If GLBT issues are beyond one's intellectual or emotional capacity then one should simply move on. There are many posts here that present an informed alternative view.

As for me, I will not continue to support the oppresion of GLBT people at DU or IRL. And if I suspect a straight person is happy to support the second-class citizenship of GLBT people -- you can bet I'll call them on it. Sense of humor or not. Even if it means alienating straight people who believe they're my supporters.

Enough said.

[hulklogan]

114. With all due respect, there is a lot more in this than just the snickers thing

Including countless posts blaming the GBLT community in advance for losing the 2006 election because of the New Jersey gay marriage issue, an event that did not happen. The snickers thing and subsequent fallout seemed to me to be the boiling point.

[Beelzebud]

137. Well then my timing was unfortunate to say the least.

I remember chewing a few people out for the insane assertion that New Jersey would sway the election in 2006.

To me it just blew my mind, because the way I was seeing the commercial fit right in with my views of most homophobic men. I've seen my share of them, and that commercial is basically how they would act in that situation. I thought it was a funny jab at guys like that.

I was pretty astounded at the backlash, and in some ways I still (obviously) am. Do I understand many people disagree with it, and see the ad as offensive? Yes I do understand that viewpoint.

Do I agree with the OP that homosexual sex is something I have an aversion to? Well, the answer isn't cut and dry. It's a type of sex I would never have, but I'm not sure I feel an aversion to it. It's just something I never think about. I think gay people should have full civil rights, including marriage, and as far as the sex goes I'm of the opinion that people should do what makes them happy, as long as everyone involved is an adult and is agreeing to it. I just want to set the record straight, not only for you, but anyone else that might be reading. I might say clumsy things sometimes, or be insensitive at times with crude jokes, but when the rubber hits the road I am for gay rights unequivocally.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. There were trolls taking serious advantage of that issue.

People who interpreted the commercial one were called homophobes, accused of killing Matthew Shepard.

People who interpreted it the other way were called cry babies and hysterical.

Trolls should be ignored.

Not the subject of homophobia.

[sniffa]

144. i'm sorry to aLienate peopLe we never had

oh the humanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Duncan Grant]

72. I've been empathizing with straight people for 40 years, you can't empathize with me?

I will listen to and support you in any way I can, but for petes sake, please do not blast me for not liking what you like or for not understanding how you feel.

I live in "your" world pretty successfully. Is it really too much to ask that you express a little empathy and understand how I feel?

And oddly enough, I don't have an aversion to straight people but ignorance -- I do have an aversion to that...

[ScreamingMeemie]

:applause: :yourock:

You can have more than empathy from me.

[Duncan Grant]

104. Thanks for being an advocate, MrsG.

Your visibility and friendship to the GLBT community here is deeply appreciated. :D :hi: :toast: :grouphug:

[LostinVA]

123. MrsG is a standup gal

Even if she drives a Yukon.

[foreigncorrespondent]

73. Yep.

Homophone really means you and people like you. This line of yours only proves that: "I found for the longest time the term homophobic being applied to one who does not comprehend the GLBT lifestyle offensive."

Yes my life really is all about the style.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. The opposite of both love and hate is indifference.

Gays are just people in my experience as a straight male. My sister in law is gay. Likable, bad temper, kind to animals, good sense of humor, liberal, bossy at times, has bad taste in music, good taste in food, adventurous, sometimes thin skinned, well educated but poorly read.

My ex-boss is gay. He's narcissistic, funny, hypocritical, racist, friendly, brave, shallow, a reliable friend, really lousy taste in music, hates books and "intellectuals", conservative politically, considers Norman Rockwell a great artist.

I'm totally indifferent to their sex-lives. Just as I'm indifferent to the sex-lives of my straight friends and relatives.

In my experience of talking to my gay friends and acquintences that seems to be what most want most of us to be. To see them as just people that are more than their sex-lives.

[Oeditpus Rex]

87. Recently, I read 'Behind the Mask'

the autobiography of Dave Pallone (http://www.davepallone.com/), a National League umpire for 10 years and, to the best of my knowledge, the only Major League Baseball umpire so far to come out — though, for understandable reasons, he did it after his umpiring career ended.

Pallone devoted a fair amount of the book to his problems with finding and keeping relationships (umpires are on the road seven months out of the year, from spring training through the end of the season, and well into October if they're chosen to work post-season games). When quite joyously writing about a committed relationship he was in, he described the first time he and his partner made love — at which point I, as a human possessed of a more or less normal imagination, visualized this.

I guess you could say I had an aversion to it, as something that seems unnatural for me — something I wouldn't want to try. (Well, duh — I'm "straight.") But, at the same time, the other side of my brain was thinking, "This is how gay men express love and affection, and Pallone was quite obviously in love with this guy, so it's a good thing."

I believe this is also what the OP is saying. If it's wrong to feel that way, well... I guess he and I are wrong. But I sure as hell don't know how to change that.

[hulklogan]

99. Feeling an aversion to a sexual act is different than feeling an aversion to a "lifestyle"

Perhaps the OP didn't know how to express it more clearly. None of the gays that I know are expecting straight men to embrace certain sexual acts that they aren't comfortable with. I hope straight men aren't expecting me to embrace the activites that they enjoy with their sexual partners.

[Oeditpus Rex]

103. Hell, I don't embrace some of the stuff

that het folks do, either. :7



Welcome to DU. :hi:

[hulklogan]

115. Thanks for the wave!

:hi: :hi: :hi:

[Nickster]

119. I was just thinking the same damn thing. Plenty of heterosexual acts that I find

pretty repulsive, but I don't feel the need at all to judge them or their acts. It just isn't for me.

[Oeditpus Rex]

138. I didn't read the OP as being judgemental

Rather, going with a gut feeling.

OTOH, you'd think one who supports equality for gay people, etc., would step back and examine that feeling to see if they can change it. So I suppose he's guilty of being non-judgemental — of himself, in a case that needs to be judged.

[Nickster]

141. I guess I'm reading his comment about having an aversion to gay sex as being

judgemental. He's not being asked to participate, and he's not being asked what his opinion of it is. Really no need to have an aversion to it or throw a hand grenade like that here. By implying that gay sex is something bad is placing a judgement on it. But then again, who asked me anyways!:-)

[Kelly Rupert]

88. I appreciate your honesty.

I wish you had a better attitude--and wish that you would focus your efforts on changing your attitude rather than defending it--but thank you for being open.

[Maven]

91. If I ever run into you on the street, without any provocation, I'll say

"Hi, I think you're disgusting! But it's all good, because I vote for people like you."

Seems like a fine how-do-you-do, wouldn't you say?

[uppityperson]

95. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you have proven yourself

to not want to have "meaningful conversation" as you shoot down such. You seemed to be saying you wanted to understand, so people tried to help. But you continue to say "but I can't help myself, all I can do is think gay sex is icky", while saying you will vote for gay rights. Going around muttering "nigger" under your breath while offering to vote for equal rights gets you nowhere. I am done and off to ask this to be locked.

[ForFuxakes]

98. LOL...ok...bye

[ScreamingMeemie]

102. LOL...yeah...really funny.

:eyes:

[hulklogan]

97. Homophobia is a problem of the heterosexual community

You straight people created it, you live it, you perpetuate it with "homophobe pride" blather like this. You are responsible for solving it. I refuse to mollycoddle heterosexuals any longer.

I am done asking homophobes to change, I am demanding that they change. And whether or not you mean any offense, you have caused it with your expression of repugnance towards me and others like me. When you feel a repugnance towards an inherent quality of someone, you're feeling a repugnance towards the person in his or her entirety, and expressing that shows either a lack of manners or a complete disregard for the feelings of GBLTQ people. I'm hoping that it's only a lack of manners in your case.

Do you even know any gays? I suspect not. If you did, you would probably have a much more informed understanding of exactly what being gay is all about. I welcome your support of full equality for the gays, the lesbians, the bisexuals, the transgendered, and the questioning, and will support you when the equal rights of ignorant homophobes are denied, even though I find your aversion and because it is inherent, you as a whole, repugnant.

[ForFuxakes]

Thanks for actually taking the time

To read and UNDERSTAND what I am trying to say.

I especially like the part "I demand that you change"...you first

[hulklogan]

107. Ending homophobia is not negotiable

I will not accept homophobia from anyone, nor would I accept racism or sexism or a repugnant aversion to wheelchair users.

I do, however, feel somewhat sorry for you.

[ForFuxakes]

101. Oops

[uppityperson]

105. hulk has to become a homophobe before you learn to not be a bigot?

[ForFuxakes]

108. Tis is my last response to you...

Though you already said that...lol

[ScreamingMeemie]

100. You're confused. You find something inherent to be a lifestyle...

GLBT is not (by your own admission) a lifestyle. It is what it is. Just like you being straight is what it is. Start there.

[Prophet 451]

110. people =/= genetalia

Lifestyle is NOT the same thing as what people do with their genitals. Know what the average gay "lifestyle" is? Work, household chores, paying bills, maybe a club once in a while, pretty much the same as the rest of us. I'm bisexual, my lifestyle consists of looking after my partner and our two cats.

If the thought of gay sex gives you the ick, fine. No-one's asking you to participate or look if you don't want to but there is a hell of a lot more to a person than where they put their genitals or which orifice they choose to take it in. Homophobia exists because of the tendancy to boil the myriad complexities of human romantic affairs down to an obsessive interest in where you stick your cock (or substitute body part of choice for the ladies). People are a fuck load more complicated than that.

If you don't like gay sex, fine. But disliking gay people is no different than disliking black people, Romanii people (gypsies) or any other minority. If you were brought up to dislike people, we can understand to an extent and we'll do our best to help you get over that but the onus is on YOU to want to change.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

111. Sounds like homophobia to me.

hatred, fear, aversion...

It all just boils down to bigotry.

:shrug:

[ForFuxakes]

122. thanks

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

125. You're welcome.

So if you think that fits you, please see DU rules on bigotry.

[GOPNotForMe]

116. ...and you thought this post WOULDN'T turn into this dramarama?

If you really had no idea what you were getting yourself into (as I suspect is the case), then I feel sorry for you.

If you did, then get help. Since the topic of homosexuals is so aversive to you, why would you create an entire thread about it?

[Lex]

147. It's clearly antagonistic, homophobic, flamebait but continues

to be left up.

If it had been about being averse to black people, I wonder how long it would've lasted.

Sheesh.

[Bill McBlueState]

118. I can't believe this

I can't believe DUers are putting this much time into addressing the personal hangups of a relative newbie.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Really?

You mean if somebody showed up whining about his aversion to, say, judaism, or say, negroes, that it wouldn't be addressed?

Or are you saying it wouldn't be addressed because the post would be deleted and the user banned?

[Bill McBlueState]

131. the latter

I don't think someone should get to be the center of attention for two hours for admitting he has a backwards attitude about GLBT people. Let's discuss the issues, not one guy's personal hangups.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

134. Well, the issue's bigotry.

:shrug:

New mods. Evening. I'm sure it'll all be cleared up by tomorrow.

[ForFuxakes]

127. I just love the

Seniority thing here at DU

[David Zephyr]

130. If I ever meet you, you needn't worry about touching me during a handshake.

I wouldn't want you to suffer through any feelings of "aversion" or "of repugnance" or to feel, as you describe yourself to be "associated with a noxious stimulus".

Of course, your post oozes in egocentricity and begs the corollary that you should ponder: Why is that gays are not repulsed by straights and/or feel the need to express such aversion to straights in a public forum on a liberal website?

Your "noxious stimulus",

David Zephyr

[uppityperson]

142. How can he tell you are gay?

Is it the tattoo?

[Nickster]

148. I think I read that they have a new lapel pin that they wear. But I don't get copied on the gay

agenda too often. So just a guess on my part.

[Quantess]

132. I thought this thread MIGHT be worth a bag of popcorn, but:

:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:

[LeftyMom]

133. 1. What, pray tell, do you mean by the "homosexual lifestyle"?

2. Is there a hetero lifestyle? How do they differ?

3. If your aversion is to gay sex, does it apply equally to gay men and lesbians?

3a. If no, why not?

4. When you meet straight individuals or couples, do you generally think about their presumed sexual habits as well?

5. Are there hetero people whose sex lives it would bother you to picture?

6. Does that make you heterophobic? Or does it just mean that some people's sex lives aren't for you?

7. Finally, what do your hangups have to do with the price of tea in China?

[Lex]

139. Ya know I'm kind of at a loss.

I used to feel comfortable here at DU because the racists, homophobes, and mysogynists weren't allowed to run around trumpeting that fact in OPs and wallowing in it.

[Bluebear]

150. And don't think about starting a thread with a different point of view

Because that one will be locked and you will be directed to the more offensive post.

[LeftyMom]

160. I know the feeling.

And I'm straight and white, so most of it isn't targeted toward minimizing me. I can't imagine how uncomfortable it makes people who deal with so much of this shit out in the real world too.

[Solly Mack]

135. Phooey

and that's far more meaningful than your post deserves

[alarimer]

136. It's ignorance, plain and simple

Like racism or sexism and a refusal to see that you are completely wrong.

An unwillingness to change or learn is not liberal or progressive and people like that are no better than Republicans.

[sniffa]

140. i can't beLieve homophobia is aLLowed on DU

*responds in originaL thread*

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

143. So it's either new, incompete mods...

or another one's got through the screening process again.

[Maven]

153. well, the other thread was locked

so I guess it's now officially open season, eh

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

167. That's what I'm saying.

The mods know of the problem, and are choosing to allow it.

Somebody's gonna get pissed when they find out.

[bicentennial_baby]

163. the old Mods weren't much better...

Awful in this respect, in fact...

[Bluebear]

145. Yes, ***DO*** respond in the original thread.

:mad:

[Lex]

149. Yes, let's make sure *that* rule stays closely monitored.

:wtf:

[Bluebear]

151. Yes, because nothing says it best like the *original*

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

152. I know, but allow homophobic threads/posts to stand

[Bluebear]

155. But they were here *first*, it's only fair that that is where you discuss them

:sarcasm:

[LostinVA]

169. True

[JackBeck]

156. We're supposed to know our place at the progresive table.

Why do we even donate here?

[Solly Mack]

146. That's why I adore you

and I do - secretly - and now not so secretly - adore you

[sniffa]

159. and i adore you

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[Bluebear]

165. And I adore the both of yas.

:loveya: :loveya:

[Solly Mack]

168. awwww Backatcha!!

:loveya:

[JackBeck]

170. When you have moles that are mods

as well as sockpuppets, what do you expect?

[JackBeck]

154. I thought this was against the rules?

Meh, just another day the GLBT must endure hate on DU. And I donate, why?

[Bluebear]

158. You're too sensitive. Get over it.

:(

[JackBeck]

164. Some get to raise money here to pay off debt and continue to berate the GLBT community.

And it's clear that the admins support this.

Amazing.

[LostinVA]

174. Read my MIND, Jack -- I was just thinking about that

[LostinVA]

173. Silly thin-skinned homosexual man

Go attack some straight men in showers or something.

[Madspirit]

157. Lock this

I sent this to the mod who locked my thread:

You allow bigotry unlocked but lock a thread against bigotry. Fine. It was actually a general post, using a present post as an example but it was general and should not have been locked. The question was and is, why is homphobia allowed at DU when racism would not be.

I consider this an official complaint though I know it does not matter.
Lee (Madspirit)

[sniffa]

161. respond in originaL thread

[Bluebear]

162. **I** appreciate your stand against bigotry, madspirit and THANK YOU. nt

[JackBeck]

166. I don't get why this continues to happen.

[Lex]

172. Because it's perfectly acceptable to have an "aversion" to gay people

and so to the back of the bus with ya. And take your "lifestyle" with you.

:cry:

[JackBeck]

176. Sorry how my sex life makes you feel icky.

Just think of two lesbians making out and all will be forgotten.

:sarcasm:

Thanks for your support Lex. You've been a great ally.

[uppityperson]

171. Lock this

[Spazito]

177. My advice is to watch this....

A Class Divided

It is about discrimination and so much more:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/

Homophobia is not genetic nor is any of the other biases people carry, this show is something everyone should watch, it should be part of the curriculum, imo.

[Ediacara]

178. Locking

From the DU Rules:

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view.

Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence.
--
Do not post "flame bait" discussion topics. While there is no clear line regarding what constitutes flame bait, the moderators have the authority to shut down threads which they consider too rhetorically hot, too divisive, too extreme, or too inflammatory. Please use good judgment when starting threads; inflammatory rhetoric does not normally lead to productive discussion.