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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:09 AM
Original message
Be wary of pushers of the commodities bubble.
Specifically, this relates to the various commodities bulls on this board. I won't name names, but we all know who they are and they will undoubtedly flame me.

For the past five years, there has been an epic rally in commodities. To a large extent there has been economic basis, just like most bubbles, including the ill-fated housing bubble. In housing, there was unusually short supply combined with slightly elevated demand. In the early years of the housing bubble, the gains were reasonable, but as time went on, speculators and momentum players played their hand. The gains became more and more rapid. Financial planners and newsletter writers explained how housing was the best way to make money for even average investors. Just before the peak, the frenzy was the greatest. When housing burst, many didn't realize just how steep and protracted the declines would be since the arguments for the increases seemed so well founded in economics. This is best seen by how many investors attempted to catch the falling dagger of the stocks of the luxury home builders which had a number of recovery rallies within the context of a broader decline.

With commodities, there has been an economic basis for the rise. Economic growth worldwide has been above average over the past five years. Industrial growth in China and India in particular has put considerable strain on the supplies of iron, copper, cement, and all manner of other commodities, including oil. However, in the past year and a half, the gains in commodity prices across the board have taken on an exponential nature.

These are charts of various different measures of commodities, some of which weight energy more, some metals more, some agriculture more. They all paint one picture: an increasing rate of appreciation across the board. This applies particularly to gold and oil. In the case of gold, and commodities in general, the decline of the dollar has caused movement in its direction as have concerns about inflation and financial market instability, which also play into dollar weakness. Oil has been buoyed by the weak dollar and supply disruptions. However, there is another factor at work here that is also very important and that is the involvement of the unregulated hedge fund industry. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/business/20commodity.html?em&ex=1206158400&en=8a43b9c2f504045f&ei=5087%0A

As commodity markets are relatively small in size, far smaller than equity or credit markets, large infusions of investor money have an unusually large impact on prices. For example, a couple years ago I remember hearing that buying all the Zinc contracts in the world would only take $3 billion. By comparison, the market capitalization of Microsoft is nearly $300 billion. A couple hundred million dollars cannot manipulate the price of Microsoft, but it certainly can manipulate the price of a single commodity. The hedge funds have pumped tens of billions into the commodities markets chasing these gains and they are doing so at an ever increasing rate. Financial advisers and investment firms, the same ones who pushed individual investors into real estate leverage schemes in 2003-2006, are now pushing people into commodities and have done so heavily over the past year.

Make no mistake, this is a classic bubble. Better than normal fundamentals have been stretched to their extreme. In the 1990s leading up to 2000, better than normal earnings growth led to stocks with valuations in the stratosphere. In the mid 2000s, better than normal supply and demand characteristics in real estate led prices to increase at 3x their normal rate. Now, commodities, on the basis of foreign growth and a weak dollar, have taken on exponential gains annualized at up to 60%. Anything that can increase that rapidly can fall just as quickly. Commodities are historically very volatile, perhaps the most volatile of asset classes. 4-5% moves on a daily basis in commodities are more common than similar moves in stocks or bonds. This even applies to the fabled "safe haven" of gold. It is true gold is a hedge against inflation and turmoil, but only to a point. In the early 1980s, gold got bid up to $800 an ounce and 15 years later it was around $250. In the same time absolutely every asset class obliterated it. Stocks, bonds, real estate all outperformed and generally normally do. The speculative frenzy, particularly in the last year that has taken gold from $650 an ounce to over $1000 is a bubble like any other. The same applies across the board and it is driven by the same big Wall Street money as all the others. Commodities do not represent some fairer, more democratic market than other financial assets. It is precisely the same if not even more extreme.

In the past three days, gold has fallen approximately $120 an ounce from its peak. Other commodities have corrected on the order of 10% or more. This was not to be unexpected. Once again, they are by no means stable markets. Many commodity players operate with extremely large amounts of leverage compared to their equity. Trading houses, under pressure from the general financial market turmoil, are reining in the commodities players as well. Furthermore, slumping US and other developed nation industrial demand will continue into the near future, putting fundamental pressure on the commodities markets just the same as any other recession that has ever happened. Less consumption means less production, which inevitably means less consumption of commodities. The recession of 1981-1982, which was preceded by a similar commodity boom, killed commodities in an incredible fashion. The recession of 1990 also brought down commodities prices. The recession of 2001 brought metals prices in particular considerably lower. This one will be no different and this is compounded by the unwinding of the hedge funds and momentum investors that contributed to the exponential surge in prices.

In short, these are not safe havens. The gold bugs are not your friends. Commodities bulls are playing into the hands of yet another Wall Street fad. If you truly want your money to be safe, the safest place is in FDIC insured bank accounts. Spread it around if you have more than $100,000 just to be safe. The odds of your bank failing are and will remain relatively small. Certainly smaller than the odds of a major wipe out in any financial asset. Short term Treasury bills are also safe, but your bank is pretty damn safe. The government has considerable means to prevent a loss of deposits. Besides, major bank failures would undoubtedly be coincident with such a major economic correction that commodities would be clobbered anyway. Please, do not chase one bubble to escape another. People did that from stocks to housing and paid dearly for it in the end when if they had just stayed in stocks, assuming they owned a broad index fund, they would have been fine, even if the returns have been anemic in the short term following the biggest stock market bubble in history from which we are still staggering.

I cannot predict if this is the end of the commodities bubble or not. I was a year early on housing and three months early on stocks in early 2000. However, I can say with absolute certainty that by examining history and economic fundamentals that the commodities bubble exists and it will burst. If you are interested in preserving wealth, stay away. You can look longingly at your gains just as stock investors did in 2000 or real estate speculators did in 2006. They always called those that warned of a bubble jealous of their massive multi-100% gains. However, most got greedy and lost all of those gains. Don't fall for the same trap.

Thank you.
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. I love watching the gold bugs proclaim how smart they are.
Guess what, guys? At the end of the day (end of the current recession, whatever), you bought shiny rocks. Maybe you can learn to make jewelry, or build a calf statue or something.

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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The gold bugs are, uniformly, morons. They are right once every 20 years.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Looks like this is our year.
But you keep on buying stocks.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. I sold most of my gold and silver on March 4
Most of my holdings were close to 20 years old.

The time to buy those things is when they are not being hyped on AM radio and full-page newspaper ads.

A lot of people are going to get snookered on commodities.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Well, I'm not a "goldbug" in sense of a "hoarder"...
I buy low and sell high. That said, I think we're still low, in dollar terms. I think in terms of supply and demand gold ought to be around $1500/ounce; esp. if you compare it to its historic buying power. I think this commodity will peak in the 2 grand to 2 1/2 grand range. Then if you buy you're a fool. I'll dump when it hits 1500 to 1600. It's certainly outperforming my stocks, and it will for a while, as long as the fed keeps trying to stick it's finger in the dike here.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. You may be right
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 10:51 AM by slackmaster
The timing for me to sell was excellent. A friend offered me a very good deal on a 1944 vintage US military rifle in excellent condition. I cashed in enough assets to buy that and pay down some debt. I may have to sell some more to finance what I owe the IRS. If the price peaks up again between now and April 15, I'll probably do just that.

Nobody is making rifles like that any more. More gold and silver can always be dug out of the ground. I think it's unfortunate that so much of the present value of those substances represents nothing more than fear and panic.

Buy gold and silver now, and you are betting that things are going to get much worse before they get better.

You may be right, but I hope you are not.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I'm fairly certain things are going to get much worse...
before they get better. I think we're heading into a major worldwide depression, probably for a good three to five years. I have a recession proof job, but most aren't so lucky.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. I find it interesting that you call people who bought gold morons.
Huh, I find that laughable. I bought several ounces back in the 90's and I'm turning a nice return and plan to cash them in soon.

Yup, I'm a moron laughing all the way to the bank.

whether it's shiny objects, money from paper or sea shells, society puts the value on it. And right now, I'm doing pretty well for a moron.

You're just pissed you didn't buy when it was low.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. "stupid is as stupid does"
I'm still bullish on gold, and I'm still making a profit over what I paid.

Isn't the definition of "not a moron" making money?
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A HERETIC I AM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
23. ..
:spray:
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Funny. I don't think I'm that smart.
But I bought $200 worth of silver last summer and sold it yesterday for $300. I sold it above spot because my coin guy has a shortfall right now.

Meanwhile, I lost 12 grand in my mutual funds being "smart" like my broker advised. Good thing I took the advice of a trained "expert".
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for the advice, but no thanks.
There are a number of things in your post that are a bit fallacious. First of all, the rise in commodity prices (ie-metals and others) is not reflective of a bubble, but of a falling dollar. Commodities aren't actually rising very much. An oz of silver in 1900 (when silver was a medium of exchange) actually bought MORE than an oz of silver does today, for example, and the same with gold. At the same time, the supply of these metals per person has actually decreased.

While it is true that commodities have seen a drop in the past 3 days, the run up to their current prices took place over several years. There was a sharp rise in the past month, and the 3 day correction you're noticing is a classic "Head and shoulders" type of movement. For gold to reach it's "peak" price, which was around $800 an oz in 1980 or thereabouts, adjusted for inflation, it has to hit $2200 and oz. That's when there'll be a "bubble".

DON'T BUY GOLD AT $2200 and oz! That's buying HIGH. But gold at less than half of that price? Still a good buy, especially when the FED is pouring money into the market at the same time foreign countries are dumping greenbacks like they're radioactive. We may not be in a hyperinflation yet, but we're definitely seeing 70s style inflation and reckless monetary policy (ineffective sudden interest rate drops, for example) is only going to exacerbate the problem.

The bottom line is that wall street is trying to buy it's way out of a crash by pouring easy FED money on the fire. When that happens, the poor schlob on the bottom needs to put his money somewhere, and holding cash is a bad idea. A bank run hardly needs to occur when so much liquidity is being created that they're robbing you of the value of half of your cash without taking a dime of actual currency from you.

Get some euros, get some gold, get some yen, get something! But don't get dollar denominated assets and don't throw your money away in the stock market, for Chrissakes. Unless you don't mind getting poorer, in which case, just don't do anything.
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. exactly. Even though a worldwide deflation would
make all commodities including gold worth less, I'll bet that those ounces of gold will be worth more than those pieces of paper called dollars. Better still, use those dollars now to become as energy independent and self sustaining as possibe
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. So long as the FED is trying to paper over the housing crunch,
gold will remain a good buy. But so are euros and yen.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
6. Easy to issue warnings.
But if you have any wealth whatsoever remaining after expenses, where do you want to keep it? In dollars? The dollar is in an obvious decline. I would rather average into stores of value which have fundamental reasons to continue going up, despite their parabolic spikes along the way.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. What good does it do you to have cash in the bank ...
... when that cash is worth less and less every month, with no bottom in sight? There might as well be a bank run going on.
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks for your perspective
:thumbsup:
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
8. K&R for an important discussion
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tuckessee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
11. What's your vested interest in this issue?
Do you peddle stocks or other such Wall Street contrivances?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
18. I figure it never hurts to have something to trade
One thing I'm fairly sure of is that the paper money we have will not be worth much of anything by the end of the year. So I'm diversifying--got some gold and silver, but also a lot of canned goods, tools, machine parts, and seeds.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. tools are an excellent choice, esp if you know how to use them
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. I sleep better at night knowing there is a milling machine and tooling in the garage
I love tools.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. and yet what happens to these stockpiles in event of disaster?
Edited on Fri Mar-21-08 01:18 PM by pitohui
having been thru hurricane katrina i can tell you

your stockpile of tools and food will be a useless pile of rubble and will your insurer compensate you for having an above average number of tools and food on your claim?

dream on

either we believe climate change is real and the resulting events of risk of flood and fire are real -- or we do not

the stockpilers are betting their future that it isn't real and that "natural" disaster can't affect them

seems a dumb bet to me this time of century but i've been thru 3 natural disasters since the turn of the century so maybe i'm a little more cautious than most



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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
21. Please recommend this thread, even if you disagree with the OP.
This is an important discussion.
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. okay. k and r for your great sig line.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
24. I'm going to kick this just so people are properly warned against another bubble.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Thanks man, but I think you're imagining things.
At work my retirement plan has almost 0 commodity exposure. Once they had a rep on and I put that to him saying hey can we get some commodities exposure in here, the rep nearly called me nuts and said they were too risky.

Now if I had gotten off my ass and gone and gotten some on my own, I would have sold last week or the week before, because you can pretty well get a sense for when they are outpacing real inflation by watching the FED printing presses. I'd have made out real nice on it.

Moreover, EVERY single time I've watched a financial show and they've talked about commodities -- and they didn't used to even talk about them at all -- they've always been extra careful to warn you to limit exposure to 5% of your assets. They only STARTED talking about them about three years ago because there was so much demand for a vehicle that was resistant to the stock/bond trends. They pretty much had to be dragged kicking and screaming into covering commodity ETFs, of which there were barely none. Almost all commodity trading was high-rollers-only e.g. PIMCO. Places where the buy-in was well over 100% of many people's assets, nevermind 5%.

Plus there was this big FUD thing about how they'd be taxed when traded on tickers.

I just do not see all the commodity pushers, other than the perennial gold bugs. They just don't exist. Or if they do, they've been pretty damn horrible at PR, because if anything I feel I was pushed AWAY from commodities when the time to buy was right.

Personally I think they've got a wee bit more to fall, but it'll be a double-dip. They'll be back up promptly. The people with balls of steel will be the winners in the long run... as usual anyone who panic sells is going to take a bath.

(and no, I'm not stalking you from the stingray thread. Just lucky coincidence.)

The truly poorest-of-the-well-off are people like me who cannot afford the time or moral patience to stay on top of portfolio wrangling. We just have to hope our CDs won't lose value so fast we end up working our lives away for free, because we're pretty sure our 401ks are going to be about as reliable as Social Security with all the unpunished fraud going on out there in just about every friggin company.

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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. Thoughtful and Helpful.
I agree with you about gold--it is time to be cautious. But I'm not sure I would even put gold in a sector with other commodities.

What do you think about the argument that this will not be a global slowdown due in large part to accelerating growth in China, India and Eastern Europe, whose needs and ongoing construction will continue to support health in other commodities such as steel, iron, aluminum, copper, etc. China is building a new coal plant every two weeks.

I'm not trying to argue; I'm genuine curious. I'm also cautious enough that I've cut my holdings in not only gold but other natural resources with just a couple of exceptions.

Thanks again. Very helpful analysis.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
26. I wish the Tulip Bidding War
would begin again!!!
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. !
:rofl:
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
29. Wasn't there speculation last Sunday, at least in the UK, that there
were going to massive bank failures this past Monday and the fed was considering calling a bank holiday? I don't claim to have any great knowledge about the markets... just know enough to be afraid of what I don't know. Somehow I don't think the banks are as safe as you claim. Not after this week.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
31. I think you will fund the nub of the matter here (funds de-leveraging):
... "Little attention was paid to the fact that the sector has been historically sensitive to growth prospects, particularly from the U.S., which for all the talk about Chinese demand, still remains the ultimate end-consumer for many of the commodities in question," MF Global analyst Edward Meir said in a note to clients.

"In addition, the recent selloff may also be attributable to the fact that we are seeing a massive round of deleveraging taking place across many markets," he added.

He said hedge funds could be lightening up on commodities to support positions that "may be under water," or else they may be raising cash to meet more stringent lending requirements imposed on them by their banks.

...

"In the big picture you have commodities getting hit because funds are unwinding long commodities/short dollar spreads," said analyst Vic Lespinasse for Illinois Grain.

/... http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080320/bs_nm/markets_commodities1_dc;_ylt=At1elFE8caVIAgxnvU_ukCa573QA
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
32. Looks like I could buy my boullion back for less than I sold it for on 3/4
But I'm not going to.
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