"Bank" reported Spitzer to the IRS? Hmmmm.

[Truth2Tell]

The story coming out of the Justice Department and the FBI today has Elliot Spitzer's bank allegedly reporting suspicious financial transactions to the IRS, thus triggering the investigation that has led us to the present cable news extravaganza. Two things seem fishy to me about this.

1. Press reports have pegged Spitzer's hooker expenditures at somewhere just north of $4000. Yet the last time I checked, banks don't even raise an eyebrow at transactions under $5000. Maybe others know more than I do about this, but my understanding is that 5k is a widely used trigger that the IRS imposes on banks for suspicious transaction reporting. (Unless, of course, the customer is already under suspicion for some other reason.)

2. Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't the IRS interested in INCOMING money, not outgoing money? Spitzer was spending money on escorts, not earning it. Since when do banks report to the IRS on unidentified PAYMENTS people make, especially for amounts in the few-thousand-Dollar range?

This story stinks. I'm wondering if maybe the IRS wasn't doing a little "routine" examination of a Democratic politician's finances. Fishing expedition anyone?

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. Go here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2987680

And, FWIW, many times when I worked at a bank, we filed what is called an SAR, suspicious activities report, on amounts far less than $10,000 and even $5,000. Going out and coming in.

[Truth2Tell]

3. What would be an example

of an SAR of an outgoing transaction for less than $5000? How would you know weather someone is sending money to a relative, buying a car, getting cash for a holiday, or whatever? Why in the world - with all the thousands and thousands of such transactions - would you choose to file an SAR on one? Do you have an example?

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. A man comes into the bank on Tuesday,Wednesday and Thursday mornings

with exactly $3850 in cash over a period of 3 months. It is always the same amount. It is always wired to the same bank. The man never makes anything other than small deposits to his account, a basic savings account. Bank management notices this, and to be on the safe side, decides to file a suspicious activities report. This event happened in 1996. Did anything come of it? Not that I know of but these types of reports are filed more often than you suspect. In this case the man appeared to be trying to circumvent the CTR (currency transaction report, for cash transactions of $10,000 or more), in other words, why wouldn't he just wire that amount once a week in the eyes of the manager? Hence the suspicion.

[Truth2Tell]

18. But look at Spitzer's specific case.

A guy who earns $100,000s per year and presumably has money in a whole variety of places makes a handful of varying payments of a few thousand dollars to several different companies over a period of several weeks or months. This could barely be out of the realm of he and his family's usual financial dealings - likely including home renovations, vacations, credit cards, flat screen TVs, political contributions, etc. Would you find these few transactions suspicious enough to file an SAR?

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. If it was a cash transaction, made often, yes. I would find it suspicious.

I really don't think there is anything to this except for Spitzer thinking he was somehow above the law.

The truly ironic thing is that he, himself was behind and pushed for FCC regulations allowing for wiretapping.


on edit: this is all just assumptions based on not having a lot of detail for now. But I can, and have, seen this happen.

[Truth2Tell]

22. But these aren't being touted as cash transactions, just payments. nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

23. If they were reported on an SAR, they would be cash transactions.

I really don't see anything too suspicious about the whole thing. I, for one, want this kind of thing to happen across the board on both sides of the aisle.

[angstlessk]

5. I had to give my SS number when purchasing $4,000 in Certified Funds

which I withdrew out of my OWN bank!!!! only cause I rarely post transactions of more than $1,000 or less at a time. all the time I thought $10,000 was the amount to draw a critical eye???

[Truth2Tell]

7. That doesn't mean they reported you to the IRS though. nt

[angstlessk]

12. That is true..I had no idea why they wanted to post my SS # to that transaction

but I gave it to em...I do find this very suspicious and am not adverse to the 'reverse engineering' thoughts that have been posted. I thought that myself..the NSA gets an earful, they then get the goods and use the goods to get a warrant..not unlikely.

[ScreamingMeemie]

19. Odds are, if they asked for his SSN, they did.

Using the reasoning that this would have been suspicious behavior for a known customer.

[SoCalDem]

9. We paid $17K cash for a car and had to file special papers with the IRS

Our government is very nosey :)

[Truth2Tell]

11. 17k is more than 5k. nt

[SoCalDem]

13. true..but ANY "large" cash transaction raises eyebrows

It has saved the savings of many older folks who get conned into withdrawing money from their accounts because uncrupulous con artists have gotten hold of them.. I really don;t see a problem..Banks are notoriously interested in "bean counting" , and auditors always see patterns..

[Leopolds Ghost]

62. You guys are awfully swell labelling legal cash transactions of free citizen Americans "suspicious"

So I and other Americans who believe in civil liberties
give quisling Dems and their friends who work in the
banking industry a big (insert middle finger here)

Go back and crawl into your mivcromanaged suburban commune,

where nobody is ever prosecuted or investigated or singled out
for extensively monitored cashless transactions, and none of
your white/middle class neighbors would be caught dead "loitering"
on the sidewalk without ID or "purpose" for being in the
neighborhood. Grounds for suspicion.

[papau]

26. SAR reports were/are almost always about cash

[Truth2Tell]

28. ABC reports that "money transfers" triggered the SAR.

I assume that means wire transfers. So again: The income is not suspicious. But a few outgoing wire transfers totaling less than 5k from the account of a guy making a six figure income triggers an SAR?

[ScreamingMeemie]

37. In a bank situation, it would trigger suspicion.

[0007]

50. Could this be about our 'American Civil Liberties Union'....?

http://www.drummajorinstitute.org/library/article.php?ID=6680

[selador]

2. not really

banks report all sorts of suspicious transactions.

the normal threshold that is considered prima facie suspicious and is report is 10k not 5k (at least last i checked) but ANY pattern that sets of red flags can and is reported. again, PATTERN



there are all sorts of matrixes to determine suspiciousness.

but in brief, the story doesn't stink at all, unless you see black helicopters everywhere

fwiw, criminals are frequently caught in weird coincidences like this - parking ticks (son of sam) , routine traffic stops, etc.

iirc, the french connection case (MAJOR INTERNATIONAL HEROIN RING) was started because a plainclothes cop saw a guy in a bar spending unusual amounts of money. that's it.

that's just the way law enforcement often works

[Truth2Tell]

6. I'm not sure having slight suspicions

that our current Justice Department might troll the lives of powerful Democrats for crimes is equivalent to "seeing black helicopters everywhere." But thanks for the insult. Keep up that critical thinking.

[selador]

14. right

your op didn't even have the correct threshold level, and you think something stinks based upon a false premise(s) (2 actually)

that's not critical thinking. that's conspiracy nuttery. you MAY be right. but you have no evidence to support your suspicions, and you have your facts wrong.

first rule of critical thinking, get the facts right.

[Truth2Tell]

21. I had the threshold too LOW. That makes my point even more valid.

There's no need to be an ass about it friend. I even said I wasn't sure and I didn't present my OP as facts, but rather as speculation. And I still think the explanation stinks, just like your jerkwater insults.

[selador]

51. it's not insults

it's a dose of reality.

there has never been any investigation of any complexity that is not open to ridiculous conspiracy speculation.

but you had your facts wrong,and you clearly don't understand how the IRS (and feds and locals) cue off financial anamolies to investigate potential crimes

very common.

the only surprising thing is that spitzer thought he wouldn't get caught

i file that under: hubris

[angstlessk]

16. are you saying if Spitzer were not found out via banks he would become a serial killer

and be stopped by traffic cops? YOU GOT SOME BLACK HELICOPTER IN YOUR HEAD!!!

[selador]

17. well of course

but i can't hear the black helicopter because it has special supersecret whispher technology

man, how OBVIOUS!

[mac2]

4. All of the citizens and politicans who are Bush enemies

will suffer from the Bush spying laws. If they are guilty or not. Or even use it to cause an "incident" or smoke screen.

This is why the Constitution and Bill of Rights is so important.

[peacetalksforall]

8. In another thread there is some information about investigating for

bribery and subsequent money laundering - taking money, then sending it to an intermediary. However, in another thread it was stated that they were investigating the call girl business. Maybe a combination.

I wouldn't be surprised if our Republican FBI was looking for anything.

Anyone think that the call girl set-up is Republican backed so that they can catch 'dem sum nice little pol-ot ishans of the Demcrat cinde.

I mean that is our money well spent for their purposes, right?

[elleng]

36. Read facts related in these several articles:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/10/AR2008031001482.html?hpid=topnews

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/nyregion/11inquire.html?hp

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/nyregion/11spitzer.html?hp

[mac2]

15. Bob Dole withdrew thousands of dollars at a time...

handing it out on the Congressional floor for votes. Taking large amounts at a time is a signal for money laundering and criminal activity (dead of night arm twising for Patriot Act, etc.).

The IRS caught him doing it over and over and investigated that bank in DC (known for politicans keeping money there). He said, he liked to carry cash in his coat pocket. He never went to jail for it. Like most the crooks in Congress he left Congress with his plunder when it got too hot in the kitchen.

Spitzer should have known about that law since he did cases with money laundering, etc. as Attorney General. Once again...the dots don't connect with the story.

[Truth2Tell]

24. This amount just doesn't seem sufficient to have

raised the alarm. Payments totaling 4-5k in varying amounts over several weeks or months to several business entities? You know how many wealthy people have transaction histories that fit that profile every month? Almost all, I'd wager.

[ScreamingMeemie]

25. Do you know how many of those reports are filed every month?

Literally thousands. I'm not kidding. We were a small branch that spent quite a bit of time filling them out.

[Birthmark]

27. Soooo...

...if I buy a ten-year old car with cash money, the bank is gonna file a report?

Gotta love the Land of the Free!

[Truth2Tell]

29. In that case one has to ask why this report, of all those many,

would trigger a full blown Federal investigation using wiretaps and informants? Surely they don't instigate such an effort in response to all those SARs you file? Could it possibly have been that the report was regarding a powerful Democrat? (if there even was such a report)

[ScreamingMeemie]

53. They are investigated by the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network.

Yes they are all looked into and I am sure most bring up nothing. And then there's ones like this one, which does look highly suspicious on the face of it.

[mac2]

40. If you are a target they can find reason to report it.

It is a good law that has gone bad...like many today under this administration.

[ScreamingMeemie]

43. If you are not a target, they report it as well.

The transfer I made on my husband's estate was reported. I was there. Luckily, I'm not breaking any laws. Like so many other Americans are capable of doing, and they are not holding office.

[mac2]

44. We ordinary citizens are being monitored constantly

but it is the powerful who are abusing the laws. At the top our leaders have become lawless and arrogant. We should be spying on them. We can't steal billions of tax payer dollars, they can.

[ScreamingMeemie]

45. And it sickens me and pains me. And everytime it involves a Dem

I wonder if it's worth believing in anyone anymore.

[mac2]

49. More about Riggs Bank

http://www.democrats.com/node/3877

Riggs Banks have been allowing politians to pass money through them for years. They "enabled" the corruption and money in DC. Dictators and American politicans were doing what ordinary Americans would be jailed for.

A Bush was part of that bank. Terrorist pay offs, etc. DA! Follow those dots.

Apparently is was merged with another bank so no punishment was seen as far a I can tell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riggs_Bank

[Mojorabbit]

30. The nyt

says it was a pattern that went on for at least a year, I think that is what I read. It seems weird to me too as I guess I just assume that really wealthy people move large amts of money pretty regularly.

[Truth2Tell]

31. I just re-read the NYT story

and I can't find anything about his payments going on for a year, only about "several unusual movements of cash." This doesn't quite jibe with the ABC version, which describes "transfers," so I doubt anyone really has the full story.

[Mojorabbit]

32. I was going by this quote

"The rendezvous that established Gov. Eliot Spitzer’s involvement with high-priced prostitutes occurred last month in one of Washington’s grandest hotels, but the criminal investigation that discovered the tryst began last year in a nondescript office building opposite a Dunkin’ Donuts on Long Island, according to law enforcement officials."

and this
The money ended up in the bank accounts of what appeared to be shell companies, corporations that essentially had no real business.

The transactions, officials said, suggested possible financial crimes — maybe bribery, political corruption, or something inappropriate involving campaign finance. Prostitution, they said, was the furthest thing from the minds of the investigators.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/nyregion/11inquire.html?hp

I am thinking the full picture will come out bit by bit as time goes by.

[Truth2Tell]

33. True. We will learn more in time, and my suspicions

will either be borne out or shown to be "black helicopter" worthy. Wouldn't be the first time for either. :)

[mac2]

41. Or the media manipulate the truth.

Is that a surprise?

[newportdadde]

48. I remember that, rumors of an illegitimate child came up with that.

The guy was always moving around the same amount of money just under I think 5k once week.

One of the more popular rumors at the time was an child was involved.

[Leopolds Ghost]

63. And Banker Dems see no problem with SAR as sole grounds for suspicion of ordinary Americans

I hope they're being watched.

[Hannah Bell]

34. I have no idea what this means (if anything), but...

I've been intrigued with this guy's weird posts around the net for a
while, so:

"how did I know?"

http://finance.google.com/group/google.finance.695596/browse_thread/thread/e63d455720f38b24/9fdf99803a102d09#9fdf99803a102d09

then click on the links - you get this:

spitzer now cuomo (seemingly refers to pension fund dispute: http://www.nysun.com/article/68035)

& a discussion (fictitious?) between spitzer & grubman of the global crossing mess.

[NashVegas]

52. Wow. VERY Interesting Links There

Here's another one getting hit:

Taking stock: Fidelity dumping Healthways

http://www.nashvillepost.com/news/2008/3/10/taking_stock_fidelity_dumping_healthways

(I don't have a subscription).

[Hannah Bell]

55. I still don't get it. What's the angle? n/t

[NashVegas]

56. Seems to Be Hinting the NYS Pension Fund

Is probably a sizable holder is the PBM cos.

[Hannah Bell]

59. What's a PBM co?

The poster (he has a website which is odd as well, he puts up & takes down pages, sometimes there are many, sometimes just one...

http://www.enterprisecorruption.com/

anyway, the poster's take seems to be that "failure" is deliberate, regular, & planned. also, he seems to have some kind of insider knowledge re wellcare, which is what initially intrigued me.

but beyond that, i'm clueless. there's just enough that seems right, though, to keep me checking back.

the ides of march is supposedly a big date. so i'm waiting with interest.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

35. K&R!

[malaise]

38. Let me add this link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2988204

Bottom line - you don't expose criminal Rethugs and not expect them to be watching you.

[Perry Logan]

39. Whenever a Democrat gets hit, we should launch an investigation of likely Republican perps.

[mac2]

46. Congress fails to do oversight even when they know there

is criminal activity. Only by pressure from constituents do they leave office with their plunder...or fear of jail.

I call it "change of face law". The rest of the ordinary citizens do jail time...a long time since they profit off of industrial prison labor.

[HamdenRice]

42. It conveniently stops Dem takeover of NY legislature

How convenient:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2988882&mesg_id=2988882

[mac2]

47. Yes...NY State watch out for Republicans who want back

in power to steal and rape your state once again. They are at the door.

[slackmaster]

54. Banks actively look for people "structuring" cash transactions to avoid reporting

That applies equally to money coming in and going out.

I was a Systems Analyst at a bank from 1986 to 1990, and at that time bank software already had special reports to look for that kind of thing. I can only imagine how much more sophisticated those processes have gotten.

[Truth2Tell]

57. But doesn't structuring involve

moving amounts in excess of $10k in smaller clumps, so as to avoid the 10k reporting threshold? It's my understanding that the total amount moved by Spitzer was between 4k and 5k. So how could structuring software come into play in his case?

[slackmaster]

58. That amount could still trigger suspicion on the part of bank employees

So how could structuring software come into play in his case?

I've been out of the game so long I can only speculate that any single transaction or series of transactions involving thousands of dollars in currency is going to come up on someone's radar.

[underpants]

60. So a rich guy-THE GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK- has money going OUT and they don't call HIM????

Stinks to high heaven

[onenote]

61. Google is your friend: Threshold for a SAR is pretty low

Here is the SAR form that banks fill out. If you read through to the instructions, you'll see that transactions AGGREGATING $5000 can warrant a SAR being filed.


http://www.msb.gov/pdf/f9022-47r.pdf