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Is there such a thing as men's rights when it comes to abortion?

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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:00 PM
Original message
Poll question: Is there such a thing as men's rights when it comes to abortion?
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 12:06 PM by undeterred

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. There are no men's or women's rights in abortion. There is the individual's right
over their own body. In practical terms this applies only to women because they are the only people capable of pregnancy.

But if a man finsds himself pregnant he should have the same rights over his own body.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. That's how I see it too. nt
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anonymeme Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
152. Great Answer! BTW, Can I Vote More Than Once?
Great Answer! BTW, Can I Vote More Than Once?

Hey, ya never know... I might be voting for two...

:spray:*On-ly Kid-ding!*




Actually, and seriously, I worry about future generations of women who don't have first hand knowledge of what it was like to fight for the right to control our own bodies and who might blindly let the rights we fought for slip away and have to fight out from under oppression to regain control of their own flesh and over whether someone else will share their body and its life support systems by invitation or by force.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
180. Which is why Ruth Bader Ginsburg proposes to view right to abortion
in terms of women's equality rather than privacy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
186. Yes, but with rights comes responsibility.
If an "individual" exclusively determines that she and only she can decide to bring a child to full term then she and only she should be responsible for RAISING THAT CHILD!!!!!!! Especially since the other individual is merely a sperm donor.

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. Why start a poll if you're not going to have any options?
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 12:04 PM by Occam Bandage
No: Option 1.
No but there should be: Same as option 1, only kinda complaining about it.
No and anyone who thinks there should be is a pig: Same as option 1, with abuse towards those who vote #2.
Yes they have the right to use a condom or abstain: Same as option 1.

You could have saved a bunch of keystrokes by starting a single-line OP that says "there are no such things as "men's abortion rights"
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. What options do you want?
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I'm just saying that you have a poll with no options.
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 12:08 PM by Occam Bandage
Edit: You have since added: "No but the father should be informed," which is, again, Option 1.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. The right to an abortion is a right to bodily integrity.
It has nothing to do with who has a choice about having a baby. Bodily integrity is a pretty basic right and the financial and time-commitment interests the father has are trumped by that basic right.
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youthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. Boy this poll isn't biased at all.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Well, clearly I don't think they have any rights
But I know a man who thinks they should. I just wondered if anyone else thinks they should.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. But yet you forgot to include a way for people who think they do to vote that belief.
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 12:10 PM by Occam Bandage
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. #2 No but there should be
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Meant to write "do." Changed it a second too late. Anyway, why isn't there a "yes" option?
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 12:12 PM by Occam Bandage
And why split the "no" vote up five ways? What is the difference between the first option, the "yes, don't knock people up" option, and the "pig" option?
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. The question isn't should they- its do they
As far as I can see, the only control men have over whether or not a woman has an abortion is to not get her pregnant (or try to persuade her otherwise- but that presumes that they know about it since they do not have the right to be notified). I don't see that men have rights in this area.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Right. So why isn't there an option allowing people to say "yes, they do?" If you wanted to see
if anyone believes that men have rights regarding the fate of their potential offspring, I would think that you would provide a way for people who believe that to vote that belief.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
64. There should be the
'tie it in a knot' option, right?
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #64
93. tie it in a bow
:hi:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #93
97. You're right...
that looks much nicer!
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. I'd like to know why you think they should
That might open a helpful dialog.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Some men think they should be notified when a partner
or girlfriend is undergoing an abortion so that they can at least have a chance to tell her they would like to keep the child. This makes me nervous because if they were close to her, they would already know about the pregnancy. I don't think getting someone pregnant confers rights, but some men think it does.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Well, when their body is ravaged by nine months of pregnancy, they can have a choice
They don't have the right to tell a woman they want to force her to keep the child. That oversteps the
whole concept of parsimony at the heart of law -- doing the thing with least impact. A man who wants a
child can adopt. A man who wants to stop an abortion is consciously preventing a woman from exercising
the right to control her own body.

Incidentally, I voted "no, but he should be informed".
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #33
153. You know, you two could at least TRY to look beyond your own preconceptions.
undeterred:

"Some men think they should be notified when a partner or girlfriend is undergoing an abortion so that they can at least have a chance to tell her they would like to keep the child. This makes me nervous because if they were close to her, they would already know about the pregnancy."

You're discounting the very real cases in which the woman keeps it secret; maybe because she thinks the child would be unwanted, or couldn't be properly cared for, or whatever reason. The point is that an open and honest discussion isn't going to kill anyone.

melody:

"They don't have the right to tell a woman they want to force her to keep the child."

That's a strawman position that you're pulling out of thin air to suit your own perspective and justify your disdain for the entire idea.

"A man who wants to stop an abortion is consciously preventing a woman from exercising the right to control her own body."

Horseshit. The right to at the very least talk to someone and try to persuade them to a different course isn't a violation of anybody's rights, and pretending like the woman in this scenario is some weak-willed moron incapable of taking dissenting opinions is mommy-knows-best protectionism at its worst.

By the way, you both seem to operate on the implicit idea that getting pregnant is something nasty that men do to women, and that women are powerless to stop--conveniently forgetting that women have several times more contraceptive options than men do. Try giving the women you're talking about measures of credit and responsibility as well as sympathy. In case anybody forgot, it takes two people to make babies. The idea that maybe both sides of that interaction should at least have input on the final decision is not unreasonable.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #153
173. There is only one choice in this -- parsimony, the least invasive choice
Anything else is the desire for one person to force his/her philosophy down someone else's throat.
My philosophy doesn't affect those who want to have children at all ... their philosophy directly
impacts me.
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Raejeanowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
142. If There's A Relationship, You'd Hope So
If we're talking about a dating relationship vs. a one-night stand, casual sex sort of thing (where you'd hope all preventative efforts had been taken), I'd like to hope that the female would at least inform the male that this had happened. It would make sense in an ongoing relationship, particularly if birth control had failed.

Until and unless a child is born of a pregnancy, I don't recognize or understand what rights a biological father should have over another individual's health and body. If the female invites participation in the decision-making, that's another matter.

Some men apparently think that getting someone pregnant confers no obligations, either.
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trueblue2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #32
160. MEN DON'T HAVE A RIGHT AT ALL.
It isn't their body ... it is the woman's.

When THEY go through pregnancy...they can then make a choice!

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youthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
44. Well, for the record...
I don't think they do either-and I voted NO, but the poll should have a straight "Yes" option, IMO.
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. As soon as they win the right to become pregnant.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. Abstain? You're joking, right? Abstinence policies do squat.
:sarcasm:
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. No they don't, but an individual man still has a right not to throw the dice...
...on potential pregnancy. Granted, with condoms or other birth control, those dice are pretty heavily weighted, but the chance exists nonetheless.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
65. You certainly aren't some kind
of animal that is governed only by instinct, are you? If that is the case for males, I believe they are not capable of holding high political office. All they can think of is humping...just like a tom cat.

Yes, the decision-makers of the world require estrogen, progesterone and just a tad of that crazy hormone, testosterone!

I couldn't help myself. Shoe on the other foot and all.
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. I dont have a uterus, so I'm not gonna touch this issue
carry on and have a nice day
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
67. DING DING DING....!!!!!
We have a winner! That is the answer I love to hear, NightWatcher. And the 'have a nice day' added a lovely quality.

I bet you're a kind man.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
183. Bless your heart. That is pretty much what my husband says. While we both believe that...
Edited on Tue Mar-11-08 09:00 PM by Hekate
...ideally couples should consult with each other, this isn't an ideal world, and ultimately it will always be the pregnant person who must make this difficult decision. And by "person" I mean "woman."

Hekate

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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
10. They have a right to pull out and shoot it somewhere else
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. coitus interruptus method of BC??? nice...
it is SOOOOO effective!

sP
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. That's unreliable for a variety of reasons.
Instead of dodging raindrops, it is a lot better to put on a raincoat.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
87. Hormones are more effective than condoms, better throw out the raincoat.
If a couple wants to take a few percentage points more of risk because they prefer one method over another, what exactly is the problem?
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. now that's the mature form of birth control
:eyes:
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. The favorite of fumbling 16-year-olds everywhere!
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. thank you for putting in option four
women wouldn't be forced into having to decide on an abortion if men used that option.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
15. Men can't die in childbirth. n/t
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TCJ70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. I voted other.
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 12:13 PM by TCJ70
No they don't, but...

It takes two to make a baby (ordinarily), but only one to choose to keep it. That being the case, it makes me rethink child support laws a little.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. Most of the people making the decisions re what choices are/will be allowed are male,
I would say they have generally had more rights than women (when it comes to abortion or anything else, for that matter) for most of our nation's history.

If men really want to choose, they can fund research and experiments allowing for implants of embryos onto male livers or spleens for gestation. Males CAN be incubators too. It's been done with apes. Of course, the gents don't get a choice about delivery. It will be by invasive surgery. ;)
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
25. No
The man is not carrying the child, period. Move on.

Yes, there are cases where a woman has received an abortion and the father found out later and was pissed, but tough for him. As a matter of courtesy, inform him, then make your own decision.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
70. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #70
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
26. You mean should a man be able to force a woman to carry his spawn to term?
Not at all really.

Should he be able to become sole guardian if the woman does is willing to carry the pregnancy to term under those circumstances?

Of course.

There are also the gray areas though.

If a woman, because of illness or accident, is unable to make medical decisions on her own; her husband may be forced into a really horrendous decision.

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Clovis Sangrail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
27. practicing push polls?
In answer to the question, I think a man has as much right as the woman gives him in regards to that decision.

If it's a good relationship they'll talk about it and he'll have some input.
If it's a bad relationship he might have too much or too little input.
If there isn't a relationship should get no input.

I fully agree that, ultimately, the decision belongs to the person who would have to carry the child to term... but saying a man should never have any input assumes a sick relationship.
To some extent it ostracizes those with healthy relationships.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
29. Nope
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Bright Eyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
34. For me, its iffy.
I think the father should have some say, but ultimately, its up to the mother (her body, her rules).
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
35. No one male or female is subject to anyone having any right to control or know anything
they chose to do within their own body.
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demigoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. The father may be dead, or religious right judges may interpret that they state
has a right to stand in place of the father. (This is a real possibility, it was the basis in older law) Since the mother will be expected to care for and support the child if born, the decision should remain in the hands of the mother.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
37. Yes. They have their right to their opinion on the topic.
As far as "rights" as to the yes/no decision of a woman wanting/seeking/getting an abortion? Hell no.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
38. when female-to-male fetal transplantation comes about...
and men carry a fetus to term (yup, all 9 months)...

Until then, they really have no rights to determine what a woman does with Her Own Body.

As of now, my vote goes to penguin fathers for rights.
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
39. Men, if you don't want a kid don't F---.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
40. Yes. Men have a right NOT to have an abortion if they don't like it.
:popcorn:
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
41. Why not ask the reverse?
Do women have the right to choose what a man does with his body? they can certainly voice their opinion, and they can be part of the decision, but they can't tell a man what he can do with his body.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Women don't have a long and glorious history of trying to control men's bodies.
But someday, we'll put all of you under anesthesia and have our way. :evilgrin:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #42
71. .....
:spray: :rofl:

When do we get to make them do the laundry, dishes, and clean house? Hypnotism???
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #71
91. ...
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 05:31 PM by undeterred
We will develop a special drug that makes them LOVE to do those things :evilgrin: and it will be served in beer. :rofl:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #91
106. ...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Here it is :beer:
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. ...
we're bad! :toast: :party: :toast:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #108
117. ...
I see us as Consciousness Raisers! Educators! Fighters for Social Justice and Equality! :patriot: :applause: :woohoo: :yourock:
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #71
127. What are you living in the 1950's?
I clean the house, I do the laundry, I take care of the pets, I cook probably 75% of the meals, and I work. My wife is a stay at home mom and yet I still do all this and manage to worship the ground my wife walks on. The only time she does "everything" is when I'm out of town. And you know what? There are lots of guys like me. Not our fault you didn't land one of us...

And yes all her friends ask where they can "get one too".
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #127
135. Can we clone you?
:loveya:
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #135
139. I get that a lot... So does my wife.
Thanks! I try not to toot my own horn too often but sometimes I get miffed when people assume that men don't do anything useful around the house.
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anonymeme Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #135
150. Hey, If You're Taking Orders for Those Clones...
Hey, If You're Taking Orders for Those Clones...

We Need 3 of the walldude model for 3 of our 4 daughters!

One of them already has a prize. He's a keeper and we love him him. O8)
Here's to guys like you, walldude: :toast:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #127
172. We have a housekeeper twice a week.
And why ask me if I live in the '50's when all of your spouse's friends (who I assume are living today in the 21st century) would like a male who does housework? Huh?

So if you know 'lots of guys' who clean up the house, why aren't you introducing them to your spouse's friends?

And if you have guy friends who don't clean up the house, why not tell them it would be a great way to meet my spouses friends?

just asking, dude.
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
92. I personally think that some men
who try to control women's bodies should undergo the Lorena Bobbitt form of abortion. It's the only surgery some men will understand. :)
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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
43. Other - depends on the relationship
If they are married or in a committed relationship, I think the father has a right to be consulted and the decision should be made between the two of them. Otherwise, I don't think the male has any "rights".

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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. How exactly does one determine the value of a relationship?
Seems to me human interactions lie on a continuum from violent or incestuous to committed and loving. Using your logic I would argue that fewer "errors of judgment" would arise entrusting such decisions to women rather than outside societal arbitration.
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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #47
62. That's why I said it depends on the relationship
It's not something that can or should be legislated.

There are legal rights and there are moral rights. I was talking about moral rights.

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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
45. When technologically possible
they should have the right to gestate and raise the child if the mother does not want to.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
73. Who is 'they?'
and what kind of technology are you talking about?

You know, with cloning, males have become somewhat obsolete.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
46.  I'm a male and there should not be mens rights in abortion
All a man does is contribute sperm , easy thing . The women ahs to go through the entire deal and should have full say .
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
48. Actually, yes.
Pregnant men have every right to decide whether or not they wish to bear a child. It's their body.

:evilgrin:
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
49. No. A man has no rights to a woman's body.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. see #51-- women can't have it both ways....
Rather than speaking about who has rights over who's body, I think it's also a matter of who has rights over who's reproductive opportunities. If it is true that male partners have no rights over their female partners' bodies, then it's also true that female partners have no rights regarding where male partners seek their reproductive opportunities, i.e. whom they share sperm with.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #53
66. Ya mean like SpRitzer?
:rofl: His wife only has the "duty" to show up and face public humiliation to leave open the possibility of saving what's left of his ass once his daughters get through with him! :rofl: :evilgrin: :rofl:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #53
74. And the woman can look elsewhere for
some better looking sperm, right? And let's hope everyone has up to date HIV tests, OK?

But don't even think of sharing that sperm with a dog. That is against the law.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. LOL-- not to mention a sure route to reproductive failure....
It's hard keeping biological reality separate from cultural imperatives when we talk about topics like reproduction and gender!
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #77
82. I'm not kidding...
it's more prevalent than you think. Sick males and their dogs. They're treated like rapists if they're ever jailed.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #82
109. ouch....
eom
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #53
179. You're making no sense.
One is about legality and legal rights. The other is about ethical choices and rules shared between two people...

Legally, if you want to screw around on your girlfriend, you're free to do so.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
50. Can we remember for a moment that abortion isn't a light decision?
It is an extremely difficult decision, and that the least of the problems a women thinks about is how difficult it is to be physically pregnant. There seems to be an underlying assumption here that it's some decision made over stupid things like vanity or convenience and that men are different and would rather see no abortion. This is a stupid premise to base arguments on. As if it all boils down to the battle of the sexes, black and white, sinner or savior crap.

And plenty of men are consulted and plenty of men want women to abort.
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prole_for_peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #50
61. it is not an "extremely difficult decision" for all women.
it wasn't for me. i found out i was pregnant at 19 and the FIRST thing i did was pull out the yellow pages. i knew i did not want a baby at that time and i thought i may never want one. it has been over 20 years and i have never regretted it or been ashamed.

and while some women may agonize of the decision, a lot of us don't. we do not want a child at that time or with that man or at all. most of use do not believe that the fetus is a child yet so it is not a "life" that is taken.

too many people want to make the assumption that the decision to terminate is a torturous and regretful one for all women who have abortions. this just is not true.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #61
75. I had the same experience.
I was simply so relieved that abortion was legal and safe...I remembered the days when women bled to death from illegal abortions.

Relief.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #75
90. Some women know exactly what they want
Which is fine. You both chose not to have children and that's your choice. But why denigrate those who have a hard time making such a cut and dry decision? It was relatively easy for you because you already knew you didn't want a child. Not everyone is so definite.

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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #90
105. Hey...dalai.
Where did we 'denigrate' any woman?

So glad to hear that it is 'fine' with you for 'some' of us to know exactly what we want. How ever so benevolent of you. You're sounding rather chauvinistic today.

If organized religions would stop denigrating ALL WOMEN, maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #105
163. I see no reason for your rudeness
Did I trash you?
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #163
166. You said that I was denigrating others....
I wasn't.

I know when I'm denigrating and when I'm not....and so do they. So you started w/ the rudeness...I just replied in your fashion.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #75
126. Nor for most of the women I know who've had them.
I guess it makes some people feel better to think of women agonizing over this, but I suspect it's not really the case a lot of the time.
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kimmylavin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #126
138. It was for me.
I agonized.
I still do.
But I know I made the right decision.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. And really, you're bottom line is the bottom line
"But I know I made the right decision" (and maybe even add "for me")
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #50
94. I think that's why its easier for many women to make it alone.
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 05:40 PM by undeterred
Even if they have a loving and caring partner, if they are not married, it raises all the relationship issues as well as many other issues. Plus the decision has to be made relatively quickly and usually without telling too many people. A woman may have friends who are trying desperately to become pregnant- while she is unhappy about being pregnant.

I worked with rape victims for several years and there were a couple who became pregnant. It was my role to be supportive whether the woman decided to keep the child or abort the pregnancy. The most important factor seems to be how much support a woman has. And nobody knows how they are going to feel until it happens to them. One may think that anyone would abort a pregnancy that resulted from rape, but that is not always the case.

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
51. I say yes, but effectively no....
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 01:49 PM by mike_c
My reasoning is entirely biological, so stay with me for a moment. I say yes because reproduction is just as important an event in the life history of men as it is for women, AND because the cultural limits we impose on human reproductive biology generally limit males' ability to engage in wholly selfish reproduction to some extent, i.e. maximal mating with as many females as possible. That statement alone has generated whole books and dissertations so I won't explore it any further here.

I say EFFECTIVELY no, however, because I believe that the extent of a man's rights in the matter should not exceed his investment in the success of the offspring being considered for abortion. Males' biological investment is WAY smaller than females', and in the absence of cultural expectations that more-or-less negates any rights they have because sperm are physiologically cheap. However, mating opportunities are not cheap, so men should retain some rights commensurate with their investment in the success of offspring if they are willing to exchange future mating opportunities with other females for aiding in the success of offspring obtained from the woman in question. I hope that makes sense. How much right the male retains depends entirely upon his ability to demonstrate his committment to making HIS reproductive success entirely dependent upon his partner's reproductive success. This situation is fairly unique to humans and results from the cultural overlay on top of reproductive biology.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
52. It's the woman's body, so... nope.
If there was a way to share the pregnancy, it would be great. But as long as the woman is doing the carrying, she is the Decider.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
54. Yes, men should have a say.
While I agree the ultimate decision lies with the female, males should have a right to be brought to the table for discussion. As the saying goes, it takes two to tango. Therefore, once the deed is done, then results from such should be discussed by both participants.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. I think the man's rights
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 02:09 PM by supernova
are directly proportional to and depend upon the degree of relationship w/ the female.

If they are in a stable, loving LTR, that's one thing. And most likely they will talk about it beforehand.


If however the pregnancy is the result of a sexual assault or a one night stand, then no, he doesn't. (This is a man who wasn't thinking to start with Why should she think he will suddenly become responsible and responsive and caring?)


edit. In no way would I ever support legally codifying any of what I just said. I think it is strictly private and should remain between the individuals involved. If he's not reliable, then it is entirely her decision.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. I can see your point in a minor way.
Yes, the more committed a relationship, the more discussion should take place. However, even a "one-night stand" individual should have some say, because his rights could be affected should she decide to keep the creation. One can't say on one hand the man has no rights in a discussion about terminating a pregnancy, then on the other hand demand he pay child support based on a situation where he had no input other than the act. Now, if the woman has no plans to ask for child support, then the man has even less reason to be a part of the discussion, though one should still take place because an ugly battle could ensue if he decides we wants parental access. As for rape, the decision should be left up to the survivor, completely.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. This is a tough one,
I know a woman who deliberately got pregnant from a one night stand with a guy she met in a personal ad. She sued for child support and won. The guy pays child support and has weekends with the child. They are friends but never had a romance after the one night. She manipulated him. He was a sperm donor but has to pay for 18 years.

If men had paternal rights over pregnancy... well imagine if a man deliberately wore a faulty condom and the woman got pregnant and he insisted she carry the child because he wanted it. Would she be a "good sport"? - Well she'd have to carry it if the law prohibited her from aborting it. I think that would be awful. But 18 years of child support for a one night stand is pretty unfair too.

If a man and woman are close she is going to tell him about the pregnancy. If he is finding out because of a notification law, then for some reason she doesn't trust him. Maybe she wants out of the relationship or its already over, or she finds him controlling. Or she is afraid of him.

So while it seems like a real partner has the right to know, I don't see how a law could distinguish a good situation from a bad one. It has to be up to the woman.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #60
79. A male ALWAYS HAS A CHOICE....
even the one-night stand....especially the one-night stand. How can a male be so stupid as to not ejaculate responsibly with someone he doesn't even know.

He made his choice. He knew she could get pregnant...there is NO FAILSAFE way...unless he has a vasectomy...which if males don't want children, get it done.

Condoms are not 100%...I believe 85% and if used with spermicide then over 90%. There is ALWAYS THE CHANCE.

If a man wants to stop a woman from getting an abortion, he can become a living nightmare...telling everyone...all the friends, family....calling the local Right To Life people so they show up at her home. Controlling (crazy) males will do anything...and murder is often the result. Highest rates of deaths of pregnant or new mothers is HOMICIDE.

So be very careful about discussing this with someone who 'might' be a tad controlling.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #79
86. I never cease to be amazed at how careless
men are when sex is a possibility. A lot of them just assume that women are "taking care of" the birth control thing. And some women are careless too.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #86
102. Women know the price of
the carelessness. They pay it.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #60
149. I agree with the idea that to carry to term or not will eventually lie with the woman.
However, all I am saying is that if two people are involved in the act, two people should be involved in the consequences. Women also make the choice to participate in sex. She can also make the decision not to have sex and 'risk' pregnancy. I firmly believe the choice lies with women ultimately, but the original question, as I understood it, was do men have "rights" and I took that as to a right to being involved with the decision-making process, not the right to supersede a woman's right to choose.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #58
78. No, you have failed
the Reproduction test....or as HRC says the Xerox Test. Move to the other line to be examined for dancing ability. Thank you.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #78
148. Must be sad to be that filled with rage that basic reading skills are destroyed.
Try anger management classes.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #148
168. rib removal can change your life.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #168
177. so can a lobotomy.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #54
76. And why didn't you make this great
decision to conceive at the time of the deed? Don't you know what sexual intercourse can lead to? You made your choice...no condom. Decided you didn't care if you impregnated your partner, right? And further...you have so little consideration for your partner that you don't give a rat's ass if she has to go thru with an abortion.

You're selfish. And that's a sign of being a lousy lay....along with not being able to dance.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #76
147. What a pathetic response.
BTW...men can't can't get pregnant, so I don't have a damn thing to worry about in that area! And you are shrill and lack basic reading skills, sure signs the only one pleasuring you is you.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #147
169. 2 words.....Rib Removal.
2 more words....World Peace.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #169
176. 2 words...no thanks!
2 more words...Happy Queer.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
181. Ethically, perhaps, and depending on their relationship. Legally?
No way.

It's her body; it's her decision. No one, including her partner, and especially the government, has a right to make decisions about her body.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #181
185. That's more of my stance (be it wide).
I don't think the courts should mandate the woman telling anybody, and this includes females under the age of 18, though they should have special counsel. While I agree it is her decision in the end, I feel it is appropriate to have a discussion with the other party involved.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
56. If you are asking "IS", not "should", of course there is.
A man who gets pregnant has a right to an abortion.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
57. When they start being able to become impregnated, then yes.
nt

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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
59. It takes two people to create but only one gets to decide.
How can anyone say that is fair. Both should agree or no go. One deciding and the other being forced to go along just doesn't seem right to me. More sex education would be helpful, along with not using sex to sell everything.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
63. Please EJACULATE RESPONSIBLY! nt
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SarahB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #63
80. This sums it up,
unless you are in a committed relationship and you know for a FACT your female partner is on an effective form of birth control and you have working sperm (i.e. no vasectomy), then wear a damned condom. It's not rocket science. After that, you have no say because you made YOUR choice when you stuck your sperm in there.

If you don't like your options as a male once she gets pregnant, wear a condom or don't fuck her. Duh! :dunce:
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #63
99. This is an atrocious argument.
Seriously. You want to say it's about responsibility? Guy ejaculates in a woman and he's made his choice, so he gets no say in abortions? We can turn that around pretty easily: Woman opens her legs for a guy and she's made her choice, so she gets no say in abortions either. The "responsibility argument" is a favored argument of pro-lifers. Adopting their language and their frames will not help the pro-choice cause.
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jpljr77 Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
68. It's a pretty moot question, regardless of the answer
Let's say you think, "Yes, a man should have a say in whether an abortion (of his child, of course) is pursued." OK, that's fine. But who do you think will "break the tie" if the male and female disagree?

So, like I said, it's moot.

Some of the reasons that men should not have a say on this thread are downright laughable, however. "Men, if you don't want a kid don't F---." Right back at ya, sister. Or abstaining, or wearing a condom...same reply from me.

In a world where such things as forced child support for sperm donors and court-ordered visitation exist, it's ludicrous to take the position that a man's work is done the moment he shoots off.

I think the real answer lies somewhere in the neighborhood of "a man is entitled to discuss the situation with the woman , but ultimately she will decide."
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
69. Other
No man should be able to stop an abortion but he should not be forced into fatherhood either. If he wants to abort the child and the mother wants to have it he should have a legal option to "opt out" and relinquish all claims to the child.
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TCJ70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. That's why I voted other as well. n/t
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #69
81. The male already made his CHOICE.
If you ejaculate irresponsibly, you chose to do so. Males know that sexual intercourse leads to pregnancy. You made that choice. Now you must live with your actions.

Or are you saying that human males can't control themselves...they are governed by the same instinct as a dog? In that case, it is not wise for males to hold high public office since they are thinking like a tom cat with no control over their actions.

You gotta pay the piper....two to tango. Just pay the child support...you never have to lay eyes on the kid.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Males can be lied to about what measures partners take,
contraceptives can fail, not every unwanted pregnancy is the result of male irresponsibility. There is some chance of pregnancy with vaginal intercourse no matter how careful the partners are. I say that either parent should be able to terminate his/her parenthood legally. If the woman chooses to have a kid that the man she chose to sleep with does not want, she should pay for the kid's needs herself or find a new partner willing to share the burden. It's what I'd do if a woman left me with a kid. I don't believe in bringing family matters to court unless someone is really being abused.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #83
100. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #100
110. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #113
118. It's not "fine" to walk away
but the law shouldn't be involved. If one sex can end parenthood the other one should be able to as well. There will probably be a negative aftermath in either case.

If I conceived with my current girlfriend I would probably want to keep the child--I don't know what her choice would be, but I'd be fine with it. If I conceived with some of the girlfriends I had in the past, none of whom would have been capable of caring for a child on their own or with me, I would have strongly advocated an abortion. If they hadn't agreed to one, I would be sending money to a person who would be abusing and neglecting a child I didn't want to bring into the world. I don't think that's fair.

It sounds like you are okay with women controlling men but not vice-versa.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #118
124. Listen, I don't want anyone controlling anyone....
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 08:41 PM by femrap
That's the whole point...but since you guys are used to living in a patriarchy and getting your way, it's time that you open your eyes and realize that you can't control others....and this desire to control is really fucking up the world.

The law has to be involved because children result from adult's follies. And these children require money for food, shelter, and health care.

Go read a book on patriarchy, sexism, gender stereotypes.....open your mind to what our culture could be like. It doesn't have to be all about war, dog-eat-dog competition, hierarchies, oppression and violence...

And if you want to end parenthood as a male, you better go discuss that with The Mother of God...but let me warn you... she won't be too happy to hear about it, OK?

And your assumptions and comments about your past girlfriends are pretty funny...why would you want to date a future child abuser???

Go read some books...or just google the topic...and expand your way of thinking.

Or don't...I'm done.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. You are very weird. And apparently religious
so I don't think we have much to discuss.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #125
131. Poor Jed...no, I'm not
religious in an organized religious way. How many people do you know who refer to 'the Mother of God???' LOL!

I guess you don't like to read, huh?

buh bye
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. After its attempt at stalking is deterred by a brave moderator
poster crawls back to earlier thread to repeat deleted personal attacks.

Not exactly a first on DU.

Also:



http://www.catholicplanet.com/catholic/hail.htm


:rofl:


Yes, I've known a few people who refer to the "Mother of God" on a regular basis. They're called Catholics.

Bye!

:hi:

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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #132
136. Mother of God.
:rofl:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #132
137. That's the Mother of Jesus....
Maybe Catholics think God and Jesus are the same??? That's a new one.

Do me a favor...don't xerox yourself, OK? Especially with those future child abusers...

And I always read Buff...I had no idea you were there making stupid comments with lots of zeros..0000000000000000000000. Do you have to unzip to count to 21? So did you go cry to daddy so he would take good care of you and protect you from the mean woman who is scarey? What a widdle boy you are.



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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #137
143. You have fully communicated the depth of your hatred and prejudice
But since your filth is not being deleted as quickly as it should be, here's a link for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

It's funny, I imagine if a poster identified as a woman came to you and spoke of a past of low self-esteem and abusive partners, you would be all

:hug: :grouphug: :cry:

My advice would be to stop flailing around, you are making real feminists look bad. Unless that's your intent...
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. ...
:hug:
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #144
171. If that's not sarcastic, thanks
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #143
164. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #164
167. Yes, no woman was ever in an abusive relationship
I see your point. Not.

But what was done to you that made you so vicious?

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DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #137
154. Ummm please dont discuss theology
Youre clearly ignorant on the subject..

"Maybe Catholics think God and Jesus are the same??? That's a new one." - No its a very *very* old one! adopted by most all of the orthodox Christian religions and also held by the protestant offshoots.

-- Greek Orthodox Hail Mary --

Θεοτόκε Παρθένε, χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη Μαρία, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ. εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξί, καὶ εὐλογημένος ὁ καρπὸς τῆς κοιλίας σου, ὅτι Σωτήρα ἔτεκες τῶν ψυχῶν ἡμῶν.

Mother of God and Virgin, hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast given birth to the Saviour of our souls.

-- Current Latin Roman Catholic Hail Mary --

The current Latin version is thus as follows (accents are given for pronunciation only and do not occur in the Latin language):

ve Mara, grtia plna, Dminus tcum. Benedcta tu in muliribus, et benedctus frctus vntris ti, Isus. Sncta Mara, Mter Di, ra pro nbis peccatribus, nunc et in hra mrtis nstrae. men.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

-- The Nicene Creed --

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.


-------

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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #154
165. Organized religion just
causes war.

Ignored.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #154
170. Don't bother it with facts
It's just here to piss on people.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #83
184. If a man is stupid enough to leave that responsibility to a woman he deserves whatever
happens to him. I control my fathering children or not, not a woman.

I have no sympathy for someone that ignorant.
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TCJ70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. The woman already made her CHOICE.
If she had sex irresponsibly, she chose to do so. Women know sexual intercourse leads to pregnancy. She made that choice. Now she must live with her actions.

Or are you saying that human females can't control themselves...they are governed by the same instinct as a dog? In that case, it is not wise for women to make decisions about themselves because they don't really understand what they're doing.

You gotta pay the piper....two to tango. Just have the kid.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #84
101. You see....that last line makes all of
the difference. It's her uterus that carries the fetus. I know you like to forget that, but until you figure out a way to pop one out of your arse, that is how it is.

And the woman has the responsibility and will make the choice that best fits her circumstances.

See? You don't have to tell women who lives with the responsibility.

We have been dumb-downed, haven't we. I gotta go read that new Susan Jacoby book.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #81
95. The female already made her CHOICE.
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 05:47 PM by Occam Bandage
If you have intercourse irresponsibly, you chose to do so. Females know that sexual intercourse leads to pregnancy. You made that choice. Now you must live with your actions.

Or are you saying that human females can't control themselves...they are governed by the same instinct as a dog? In that case, it is not wise for males to hold high public office since they are thinking like a cat in heat with no control over their actions.

You gotta pay the piper....two to tango. Just put it up for adoption...you never have to lay eyes on the kid.

Seriously. Don't make the "responsibility" argument, because that's a one-way ticket to overturning Roe.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #95
111. For some, "equality" is a one-way street. nt
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #81
115. And the woman chose to accept it as well.
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 07:59 PM by hiaasenrocks
Of course, you won't admit this. The misandry in your post is disgusting.

So...on to other topics, I guess.

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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #115
121. Maybe it's one of the "all hetero sex is rape" crowd.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #121
174. Could be. I don't expect to have a rational discussion of this issue with people who
believe (as expressed in several posts in this thread) that one person has the responsibility during sex and the other is just some helpless little thing that can't do anything to prevent a pregnancy.

It's laughable, and not even worth discussing.

Their argument has no basis in reason or logic.


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I work for workers Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
85. Yes, under the current laws fathers have some rights.
They can sue for damages if the mother has a partial birth abortion:

(c)(1) The father, if married to the mother at the time she receives a partial-birth abortion procedure, and if the mother has not attained the age of 18 years at the time of the abortion, the maternal grandparents of the fetus, may in a civil action obtain appropriate relief, unless the pregnancy resulted from the plaintiff's criminal conduct or the plaintiff consented to the abortion.

(2) Such relief shall include

(A) money damages for all injuries, psychological and physical, occasioned by the violation of this section; and

(B) statutory damages equal to three times the cost of the partial-birth abortion.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. But isn't a PBA only done under circumstances
of extreme medical urgency? I thought that it was only legal to do this procedure in circumstances where there were no other options and there were extenuating medical circumstances for mother and or unborn child. Its not like any doctor would do this as an elective procedure. So why would anyone seek to bring suit against a woman who was in this tragic situation?
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I work for workers Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #88
98. Beats me, I'm just pointing out the law. nt
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #85
112. What state's law is this? (nm)
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I work for workers Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. The Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act.
It covers the whole country.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #116
151. Of course
*smacks forehead* Thanks.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
89. Yes: it's identical to our right of medical privacy
There is no difference in a woman's right to medical privacy and a man's.

Obviously, one hopes that if a couple were pregnant the two would discuss the decision and come to an agreement to move forward together, but the world ain't perfect.
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
96. if men were to be the pregnant ones,
I believe there would be abortion clinics on every street corner, along with full page adds in the media advertising where and who to see. Just my 2Cents worth.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
103. As a Man, I Have the Right
to listen :P
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
104. No n/t
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
107. No.
n/t.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
114. There should be more responsibility during sex.
Women should seek the advice of professionals as to how to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancies. Men should know to do the same. It's a 50/50 proposition and anyone who says it's not is engaging in misandry.

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #114
120. People should stop being so presumptuous as to think they're divinely placed on earth to proclaim
to everyone else what they "should" do with THEIR OWN lives and bodies.

...
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #120
175. Like everyone else, I'm sure you have views about what people should and shouldn't do
and, like all cases, you've drawn that line arbitrarily.

Sorry. This is a representative democracy, with a judicial system that protects minority rights. The law can be changed.

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #175
187. Nope. I'm not interested in telling other people what they can or can't do with their OWN bodies.
Not in the slightest.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
119. Did I miss something? Can men get pregnant now?
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 08:17 PM by impeachdubya
No?

Then it's not my body that's in question-- so why would I have any legal "right" to tell a woman -someone else- what she can or can't do with hers?

People need to understand that their head is on top of THEIR neck for a reason; our planet is rife with folks operating under some control-freak delusion that they have the right to tell other people what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. Anti-abortion laws, drug laws, laws against consenting adult sex.. :eyes: Run your own fucking life, let other people run theirs.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #119
122. YES exactly!
thank you!!!!!!!!!!
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #119
130. Interested? They're calling for male volunteers.

You will have to refrain from rock climbing and vigorous arguments in GDP for 9 months.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
123. Not really no, but
if a man and a woman are in a relationship and she gets pregnant, the man ought to be informed. Granted it's the womans body and the final decision is hers, but any woman who hides a pregnancy from a man she is having a relationship with and then aborts it without telling him is no better then the men who want to control a womans right to choose. Now before I get hate mail I'm talking about a couple in a loving relationship, thats all.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #123
128. If she keeps a secret about something like a pregnancy
then there isn't really much trust there to begin with.
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TexasBushwhacker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
129. Does anyone have the right to force a woman to continue ....
a pregnancy that she doesn't want to continue? NO! Should a husband have a legal say in whether or not his wife gets her tubes tied? NO! Should a wife have a legal say in whether or not her husband has a vasectomy? NO!
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #129
134. And from practical standpoint - what does the "right" matter when the woman can make the decision
without the man even knowing she was ever pregnant?
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
133. no n/t
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margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
141. I'm inclined to say no, but
I think it depends on a variety of circumstances (obviously). I think that men can say whatever they want, but since it's not their body, they don't have the ultimate decision. What men should not have the ability to do is legislate against abortion. That would be like women mandating vasectomies. If you don't want one, fine, but to try to control a woman's body, against her will, is a crime.

http://www.serveoutloud.blogspot.com
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
145. I think men should have some rights as far as an abortion goes.
Primarily I think it's a little unfair that a woman can decide that she is not ready to be a mother but a man does not have the ability to opt out of being a father if he is not ready. I would like to see some sort of male rights which would allow men the option of asking the woman to have an abortion and if she declines then the man has not obligation to act as a father or provide financial support.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #145
146. Yeah, good luck with that.
Better get super sturdy condoms.
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zorahopkins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
156. Absolutely, Positively NOT!!
The ONLY rights that mean ANYTHING when it comes to reproductive freedom for women are the rights of the WOMAN!

There is no such thing as "Men's Rights" when it comes to talking about reproductive freedom -- FOR WOMEN!!!!!
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
157. I can imagine a situation where not discussing it with the man is jerkish. And one where it isn't.
It all depends on the particulars of the situation. But I don't think the word "rights" applies.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
158. Oh boy,
:popcorn:
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Ordr Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
159. So...
If my girlfriend becomes pregnant with my child as the result of a broken condom or the rare possibility of the pill not working, I have no right whatsoever to give my opinion regarding whether or not she should abort?
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #159
161. You can give your opinion
In a healthy relationship the mans opinion will count for a lot to a woman but it is ultimately her decision. But legally the boyfriend or husband does not have any rights to force a woman either to carry a child or to have an abortion. I don't think he even has the right to be notified.

Some men think this should be different, but I don't see how that can be changed without creating a whole new set of problems. There's not much middle ground with pregnancy.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
162. I imagine that...
I imagine that men's right vis-a-vis abortion is nor more, nor no less than women's rights regarding a vasectomy.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
178. As soon as men might need abortions, we can talk about their
rights wrt abortion.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
182. I told my 15 yo son to keep it zipped or keep it covered if he didn't want to be a teenage daddy...
Harsh, but at the time we knew a 16 yo girl who was pregnant by a 15 yo boy. Idiot children that they were.

In any case, when it comes to the "choice" of whether a pregnancy will be terminated or continued, the day that men can choose to have the fetus implanted in their own abdominal cavities we can talk about it.

I was volunteering at the reception desk of the local Planned Parenthood when an enraged father dragged his 6- or 7-months' pregnant daughter in and demanded that she be aborted "Right. Now." How's that for choice?

I seriously doubt that any such thing was done to her that day or any other, because PP is not in the business of providing abortions on demand by men.

Hekate



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