Capitalism has finally done it. They've destroyed themselves via their greed.

[Postman]

http://www.intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=918803

[DeadEyeDyck]

1. Should we celebrate in our demise?

[magellan]

4. What's to celebrate?

That many here were right, and the Commander-in-Thief has wrecked our economy? I'd much rather the people who've been warning about this for over two years had been proved wrong.

If you find anything to celebrate, let America know.

[Birthmark]

2. This isn't the first time, either.

I hope that the government does absolutely nothing to bail out any corporate entity or industry whatsoever. Crashes are as much a part of capitalism as huge profits and dividends. It's time people realized that. Then we can make an INFORMED decision on just how much capitalism we want.

[defendandprotect]

7. Exactly because stability/certainty aren't money-makers . .. you need fluctuations - ups and downs -

[Hannah Bell]

9. arbitrage. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

10. Re the sources for the doom-saying:

"Now, before we all run out and start buying diesel generators and automatic weapons for our bunkers, let's take a deep breath. There, that's much better. The sky may not be falling after all. Far be it for me to cast any aspersions, but maybe Mr. Connelly is merely talking his position.

Banque AIG, after all, is owned by insurance giant AIG. Back in late January, AIG had to bail out Banque AIG's Nightingale SIV by buying $2.2-billion (U.S.) in Nightingale senior debt.

And just this week, PricewaterhouseCoopers discovered "material weakness" in AIG's accounting for its CDS exposure, saying that the value of the company's holdings had deteriorated by $4.88-billion, four times the size of their previous loss estimates. AIG's share price got pounded hard on that news.

So it's conceivable that AIG and a lot of other financial corporations out there actually wouldn't mind seeing the Fed on the bid for their shares. It is still a monumentally dumb idea."

https://secure.globeadvisor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/gam/20080215/RKOZA15

[defendandprotect]

19. I thought Price Waterhouse was also finished . . . ????

[Birthmark]

13. Stability and certainty aren't *FAST* money makers

They still provide an income, though. Most of us work jobs that are (within reason) stable. We do that for the certainty of the pay check. Almost all of us could make more money as, say, drug dealers --setting aside morality and talking strictly economically. Drug dealing provides a very high profit...but the stability is poor. Gambling provides stability in the sense that someone *always* wins, but theres absolutely no certainty. So, most of us are, in fact, working on the basis of stability and certainty.

It is the money obsessed who need the fast and large profits. That's always bothered me. Money obsession is about the only obsession that ISN'T considered a sickness.

[defendandprotect]

20. Let's uninvent the dollar --- and go back to seashells --- !!!

[Birthmark]

36. How dramatic!!

You should have used all caps and really made your point!

[defendandprotect]

56. UNIVENT THE DOLLAR --- !!!

It's an artificial instrument ---

Many people do talk of trying to return to trading --- switching one asset for another --

one serivce for another ---

Obviously, we don't need a page of directions for starting an economy ---

but we do need a sense of social responsibility to make it economic democracy ---

[Greyhound]

76. How about this? the system is already in place to convert the valuation of currency

from, arbitrary and easily manipulated, comparing geographical "productivity" and institutional stability, to a universally consistent time factor. An hour in the US is exactly the same as an hour China and true cost of any production is more accurately reflected.

[defendandprotect]

92. Are you recommending returning to the Bretton Woods Accords---???

Which would be good news --- !!!

[Greyhound]

94. Rather like it but substitute the universal constant (in so far as is applicable to the

Tardis challenged) for the arbitrary currency of the moment.

A person works so many hours in a day. Everything takes so much time to produce, and resources are commons with their value set by the community, and so on.

Inevitably the price of stuff reflects its true value. The major problem of course is that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to accumulate excessive wealth.

[defendandprotect]

99. Not being able to accumulate "excessive weath" wouldn't be a problem . . .

it would be an advantage ---

"The cause of poverty is great wealth" ---

[Greyhound]

105. True. The problem would be in it ever happening because the "people who matter"

would fight it with every means at their disposal. They are generally lazy and completely lacking conscience. They would kill every living thing on the planet, without giving it a second thought, to keep their privilege.

[skids]

42. The best form for a new currency these days... NdFeB magnets

... I just say that because I have lots of them, of course. :-)

Fully charged NiMH batteries might work... a bit bulky, but...

[defendandprotect]

100. We can have a variety of currencies . . . bobby pins....paper clips . . .

do you know how many of those are out there --- !!!

[silverlib]

3. I cross-posted this in the Economy forum..

Hope you don't mind. I gave you credit :-)

This is scary. Thanks for posting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Well, this is an interesting editorial, and haven't some of us said the same for years

damn... this is annoying.

Anyhow we need a new FDR to save capitalism from itself

[G_j]

6. grim indeed,

should not be a surprise though,

[defendandprotect]

21. Capitalism has to become a dirty word . . . and we need

to move on to economic democracy ---

[Selatius]

28. You know what capitalists call economic democracy? Communism.

They red-bait anything resembling socialism. Even a private business owned by the workers themselves, a worker co-op, is considered too much for some.

[defendandprotect]

47. Yeah . . . well, smart people understand that; dumber people believe it ---

Meanwhile, it was "totalitarian communism" . . .
which was the way J. Edgar Mary Hoover always referred to it ---

i.e., fascism.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

8. Middle class Americans are stuck in a vicious vortex created by the corporate powers that be

For those in serious trouble, they can't make their mortgage payment. But credit is tight, so there's no way to refinance to more favorable terms. Since they can't refinance, many are sucking up the remainder of their credit card debt to pay their bills, including the mortgage. Once they exhaust all options, they move out, only to discover that it's really hard to rent an apartment or house with a foreclosure on the old credit report. Some find a place, many end up in the dumpiest areas in squalid conditions.

Add on to that the fact that incomes are stagnant while prices are sharply increasing because everything we purchase is tied somehow to oil. Whether a product uses oil in the manufacturing process, was shipped using an oil based vehicle, or contains petroleum itself, everything is tied to the price of oil. As the economy worsens, jobs will disappear and real income will slip even further as people take 2 minimum wage jobs just to make ends meet living in their dumpy apartments and driving their 80's era Toyota Corollas.

Who's will be hurt the most by these problems? The middle class. The lower classes already are in shitty circumstances, and are holding the lowest paying jobs already. The upper class, at least the smart ones, have diversified their holdings so that any crash in the U.S. economy will by at least partially mitigated by ownership of foreign stocks, currency, etc.

The middle class is fucked if the U.S. economy takes a big giant shit.

[defendandprotect]

Evidently there's some hope that they might FREEZE these foreclosures . . .

What are the banks going to do with all of these houses in this market in these neighborhoods?

Again -- as many others have pointed out --- this is capitalism, this is its repeated "failures" which are actually periods of total rip-offs of consumers and our Treasury.

[Speck Tater]

11. The NEW middle class will be....

.... Those who know how to trap and butcher a squirrel, build a cooking fire without matches, tan leather, work a plow horse, ... etc.

[KharmaTrain]

12. Thoughts Of A Child Of Depression Children

My late parents grew up during the Great Depression...and their stories and concerns were a big part of my growing up. Their bigget mantras were "if you can't afford it, you can't have it" and "save what you can, while you can...you never know...". I grew up, and still, avoided ever borrowing money from friends or taking out a loan I couldn't fully collatoralize...working my butt off and slowly putting a few bucks away here or there. There were many years without a vacation, cars were babied until they rusted away and the importance of self-responsibility and self-sufficiency were never far from their advice and my thoughts.

Its times like these that I can hear my mother's voice doing an "I toldya so"...she watched the economy go to hell in the late 70's and 80's...I was trying to get established with double digit interest rates and stagflation forcing one income families to find a second income. She looked at the situation then and would always tell me "it could be a lot worse"...I think this is what she meant.

For a long time we've had a ticking time bomb of outstanding credit...people maxed into a growing spiral of debts and playing a shell game from going under. Paying the minimum, taking out second mortgages, debt consolidation and other gimmicks kept the wolves from the door, but all the while the debt bomb grew. Banks sure didn't mind it as they got very fat on whatever interest payments the'd suck in and roll the remainder into the princpal...digging people in further. It was quiet and widespread...but a shell game that went on as long as the money flowed and people were able to pay the minimum. This wasn't just the "average joe", but corporations and our government as well. Now we're starting to hear the "margin calls"...the IOUs are due and those on the lowest levels are getting squeezed the hardest, but this fall is gonna take a lot of rich or pseudo rich with them.

This fall or "correction" is long overdue. Our economy has been shrinking for the past 3 decades and has been stagnant at best over the past 7 years. The shell game has hit the wall and I suspect we will see this crisis get worse as the year goes along. This regime will try to bail out the large donors...err corporations...using the same trickle down bullshit that caused the financial irresponsibility that made this mess. It's gonna be tough for us all.

Here's hoping those who have been able to escape debt have...there have been warning signs for a long time and we've had many a DU thread on preparing for the worst. Sadly...the worst is just starting...

[femrap]

61. My parents survived The Depression as well....

my grandfather refused to discuss it. (It was that bad.) I just pray that things will be rationed so people don't kill each other over food. Those words I typed just made me feel ill.

Yes, the worst is just beginning. On the bright side, we'll get to make things again...you know, manufacturing.

[leftofthedial]

14. if this can truly eliminate the cancer that is capitalism

maybe we can start over and build a world that is once again worth living in.

Capitalism is a sickness. It revels in greed, avarice, utter exploitation of finite resources and the destruction of one's "competitors." It is a sick, unsustainable system. We've gorged on it for far too long. It has come to the point that it is either this grotesque metastasized monster or it is us. Both cannot survive.

[hack89]

25. How does it happen while still feeding millions of people?

everyone seems to gloss over that transition period - surely you see the potential for millions to die?

[Karenina]

26. The PNAC plan is to take out BILLIONS.

Read the Manifesto, "Rebuilding America's Defences"

[hack89]

35. So starving millions is an improvement you can support?

OK.

Your answer is completely irreverent to my question.

[Karenina]

41. I'm often irreverent.

:rofl:

[leftofthedial]

38. starving people? you think that won't happen here

when the ice caps melt, the droughts shut down the North American bread basket and the water supply and the uber-wealthy retreat with their loot to paraguay or wherever?

I fear that much suffering is inevitable no matter what.

[defendandprotect]

50. And this war on nature is compliments of patriarchy, patriarchal religions + capitalism . ..

Insane, suicidal concepts --- !!!

[femrap]

62. You can say that again....that's the root problem...nt

[defendandprotect]

49. It takes power to claim power --- are we ready yet---???

The threat is going to be to keep a people's government which it is being bombarded by corporate interests ---

We need power like that used in the New Deal to shut out these corporations --- highly regulate them --- and to move on to economic democracy.

Many of these companies have moved out of the US --- block their return --- raise tariffs, let Americans start new businesses here --- let government raise corporations to build electric cars and subsidize both manufacture and purchase ---

Meanwhile, the very serious threat of Global Warming seems to suggest that food is going to quickly
become a problem ---

LOOK UP at the sky now and then and you will see that they are POURING on the chemical trails ---
which are intended as "weather modification."

Who's worried --- ???

Only our government, but they're not talking about it ---

Bees and bats --- frogs --- disappearing species --- all evidence of what's really goin' on . . .

[femrap]

63. These chem trails...

are they trying to make it rain where there is drought, such as SE US? Or just what? Or are they creating droughts/floods just so people will die?

[defendandprotect]

101. There's documentation on them . . .

I think it's a Senate # . . . I used to have it . . . it has a special designation ---
Rep. Kucinich's office could fill you in on any known details of the program ---

But it's been going on for about 10 years and looked like the military was testing a system...
various chemicals . . .

About two or three years ago it moved into private hands, I believe . . .

The trails now look more like clouds --- but I don't think they've ever revealed what chemicals
they are using.

It is stated to be "weather modification" . . .
Most of us presume that they are trying to block excessive heat/radiation --
that it would be to protect crops. But no one really knows.
We just know that you have a beautiful clear blue sky one moment --- and especially when there
are no clouds --- these planes come in --- now never more than two at a time -- and start laying
the trails . . . which spread ou tand make the sky milky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory
THIS will give you some general info -- scroll down to weather modification

There is lots of other info on the internet about it --- pro and con.

Keep in mind --- it been going on in every state --- and it's international --

[femrap]

103. I've seen pictures and probably

have seen them in person. Mother Nature is gonna get revenge someday.

We are destroying this planet. Not we...they...rich, white men....probably ugly and short. You'd think we'd be to round 'em up and stick them some place where they couldn't hurt anyone else.

[Greyhound]

77. The means will remain, the only change is in the accounting.

will the crops stop growing? Will the machinery cease to exist? Will the knowledge of how to do disappear?

[hack89]

81. Think of the entire production and distribution chain

and think what happens if it is disrupted. Think of all those evil businesses involved - fertilizer, agribusiness, trucking, railroads, warehousing, supermarkets. How many days disruption of food supplies to big cities would you think it takes before the social fabric rips? How do you replace capitalism without starving millions? How do you do it without the complete cooperation of all involved(including those evil companies?)

[Greyhound]

93. asked and answered.

of course there would be a short-term shock, but you've bought into the "ultimate doomsday" fantasy spun to frighten you into submission. Everything remains but the illusory paper entities that, in the end, create nothing.

[hack89]

98. In short you have no idea how to do it.

yet we are to trust that the shock will only be "short term". Those "paper entities" are critical to the entire process - how for example do farmers get paid with out banks?

[donkeyotay]

15. Let's hope they don't use war as a way to fix it.

We are not experiencing a "remake" of the 1929 crisis nor a repetition of the 1970s oil crises or 1987 stock market crisis.

What we will have, instead, is truly a global momentous threat - a true turning point affecting the entire planet and questioning the very foundations of the international system upon which the world was organized in the last decades.

[defendandprotect]

51. We have wars on TWO fronts -- Bush is headed for THREE --- !!!

[SoCalDem]

16. You must be young..

This happens pretty regularly.. It's the Boom-Bust cycle..

It sucks to be in the bust part.

there are always con artist & scammers..and they always figure out a way to get their hands on the treasury.. It never ends well ..and then we all forget about it for long enough to build it back up again for the next crew who waltzes in and mucks it all up again..

[femrap]

64. I'm old....and I think this is truly very different....

this is a HUGE bust. Peak Oil, Peak Greed, Peak Debt, Peak Globalisation...all coming to one big eruption of scarcity.

I still like the bumper sticker: End World Hunger. Eat the Rich.

[Elspeth]

17. The wrecking of the economy has been deliberate

"They are not Americans." --Scott Ritter

[SpiralHawk]

18. Shock and Awe. Freaking republicon homelanders are trying to destroy America

The Rise of Disaster Capitalism -- the republicon homelander methodoly against the world, including America.

http://e3s.ca/t911truth/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=1

"In THE SHOCK DOCTRINE, Naomi Klein explodes the myth that the global free market triumphed democratically. Exposing the thinking, the money trail and the puppet strings behind the world-changing crises and wars of the last four decades, The Shock Doctrine is the gripping story of how America’s “free market” policies have come to dominate the world-- through the exploitation of disaster-shocked people and countries."

[spin]

72. I'm currently reading this book....

I read a couple of books that were very pro free trade. I suspected I wasn't getting the full picture. Another poster on DU recommended reading this book to gain an insight into what is really happening in this world.

Quite eye opening and disturbing. No wonder so many people in foreign countries distrust us and our government.

[defendandprotect]

22. Of course . . . people who think this happens by accident are naive ---

[NashVegas]

23. If You Don't Have Liquid Assets, Time to Brush Up On Your Skills

Cooking.

Building.

Gardening.

Basic mechanics.

[mainer]

24. Can I ask a practical question?

If you've got assets, where the heck are you supposed to park them to preserve their value? The dollar just keeps falling, so even if you have cash on hand, you lose while you sit on it.

[lonestarnot]

68. Commodities I guess.

[DireStrike]

79. Hmm... skills and physical assets?

Can you get worthwhile training in anything? Do you have things that you can trade? Land to grow on?

[gulliver]

27. Wrong scope. It's not capitalism; it's just crime.

Socialism and communism aren't immune to crime either. There need to be laws and agreements faithfully executed. We actually have a decent capitialist system, but it can't tolerate crooks, incompetents, and zealots at the controls. Bush is in the pilot seat. He gets to crash the plane.

[Selatius]

29. Regulating corporations has been dismantled since Reagan

Before Reagan, the emphasis was on getting corporations to comply with regulations and tax laws. After Reagan, the emphasis was on how to free up corporations from regulation because it was argued that regulation cost corporations money.

What was also killing us was weak campaign finance laws. I don't know how the current system of pay to play can exist without getting influenced by corporate PAC money and corporate executives with large bankrolls buying politicians.

Bush is just a symptom of a far greater problem. He didn't crash the plane at all. Many people did. In the 1990s, for instance, the tax laws were changed so that people who speculate in real estate don't have to pay capital gains on homes that they buy and don't live in. This allowed the housing bubble to form with the incredible housing price inflation. People were pumping up prices on purpose.

[gulliver]

30. "Bush is just a symptom of a far greater problem."

I completely agree. I think Bush is both a cause and a result of a generalized disease in American values and especially its business environment. Bush is the proximate cause of the plane crashing (if indeed it crashes). He and his Republicans have the only controls available. When they don't use them, or use them in a criminal-minded (lazy, something for nothing, dishonest...) way, the people suffer.

Don't think I believe there aren't a whole pack of guilty parties. To some extent or another, the majority of the American people have a share of the blame--for lack of diligence, for simplistic thinking, for immaturity. But you can't punish the whole country. Start with the ringleaders of the whole mass corruption movement. That would be Bush and the GOP.

[vssmith]

33. In the 1990s, for instance, the tax laws were changed

Also congress passed a law and Bill Clinton signed it overturning a New Deal reform, the Glass-Steagall Act, weakening bank regulation.

[femrap]

65. I remember that....I was just....

well, you could have knocked me over with a feather. But it all started with Raygun...and there's a group of very wealthy elites who are telling Raygun, Bill, etc. what to do. That's who I want to pay for this mess. It's the Rothschild/Rockefeller, stupid! I hope they choke on the $$$$.

[defendandprotect]

52. Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime --- correct . . .

and the New Deal regulations have largely been overturned ---

[chknltl]

96. May I disagree?

I ask politely because I seek further discourse, not debate. I am not a student of government nor of economics but I DO have thoughts diametrically opposed to the notion that it ain't capitalism, that crime and zealotry may be the major culprits.

I feel that capitalism unrestricted in a democracy will ultimately destroy that democracy. Although I could not prove it through example, I further feel that capitalism 'restricted' will slowly work to loosen those 'restrictions' eventually loosening them enough to destroy the democracy that it operates in.

I do not think that America is undergoing some kind of deliberate hostile takeover. I think that capitalism has at it's base PROFIT. Those loosening of restrictions come from the attitude of: "We earned it fair and square so don't be telling us what to do with it!" When a capitalist gets wealthy enough to send a team of lobbyists off to Washington DC, they are there to increase their bottom line PROFIT. This precludes the needs of We The People, or the majority, who ultimately must bear the brunt of this grab for PROFIT.

When enough capitalists have sent in enough lobbyists, and when those lobbyists have carved out more and more PROFITS for their companie's stock-holders, the dynamics of democracy shifts over toward a corporatocracy...a sort of corporate feudal society. This is accomplished by removing the safety nets of the democracy: minimum wages; unions; socialized systems like medicare; social security; and etc. combined with the lowering and eventual removal of the taxes that the corporations pay out to support those programs. The majority, (the middle class), gets reduced to something akin to a peasant status having little to no control over their government. The minority with the wealth grow even wealthier and grow in political power. Due to that accumulated wealth AND their needs to gain even more of both wealth and power, it spirals beyond the controls of a democracy or the majority.

This is still capitalism... there is nothing criminal here, although criminal activity, (breaking the laws within that democracy), become easier and easier as the wealthy take custody of those very laws. Where once it was illegle to pollute, those laws are lifted.. the pollution goes on and no laws are broken! This is not to suggest that the likes of Ken Lay and his shennanigans at Enron were anything less than criminal but given the chance, even what he did could be fixed in this 'rigged' system of democracy and be portrayed as legitimate.

It is up to We The People to be, (and should have been), ever vigilant against this. A few of our fellow DUers tried to warn us. Thom Hartmann and others have written excellent books on this.
Dennis Kucinich and others have fought to lead us away from this. Ralph Nader would teach us of this. (Some would suggest Ron Paul as well but he is really more of a Free Trade nut...it was a stretch enough adding Nader.)

That then is how democracy ends. As others have pointed out, not from without but from within. We survived it once...we know that period as the Great Depression. Then as now, America's wealth crept up into the hands of the ultra wealthy. Then as now America's wealth was tucked away offshore by that class of ultra wealthy. Then as now the POTUS'S exacerbated the problems by loosening restrictions on capitalism and reducing taxes on the wealthy and their corporations.

Will we survive now as we did then? Again I am no student of this...I just have the bits and snags I pick up here and there. I do not feel that there is a criminal element, some hidden group of Billdebergers(sp?) out there actually seeking our demise. I just don't see some arch villain, some Lex Luthor who has plotted out our demise. I may be wrong, maybe Osama Bin Laden figured this shit out from paying attention to Regannomics. Maybe he inserted himself in at the right time and place, pulled that last stick out of that stick game where the tower collapses.

I dunno..., I have had this discussion with a Niel Boortz Free Market aficionado over on a different forum. He finally gave up on me calling me names and leaving our debate in total disgust. He I think, was more well versed on this than I but sadly he was from a different philosophical camp than I as well. It would be nice to get an honest discussion from a fellow DUer...one who won't call me names and get angry and storm off just because we disagree. That is why I asked: "May I disagree?"

I'll be back later...hopefully to learn more about these things we write here. I think when it comes to democracy in America, we are in very interesting times indeed!

[ldf]

31. and THIS

is what's going to be dumped in the democrat's lap that makes it to the whitehouse.

timing is everything.

they know what they are doing.

[defendandprotect]

53. Just 8 short years ago we had a SURPLUS and PEACE . . .

Amazing how quickly the destroyers work ---

[bluesmail]

32. The Russians have tried to wreck our economy

IIRC, the economy came back but not so robust. I can't figure out who it is behind the curtains.

[Karenina]

39. BWHAHAHAHA!!!!

Way back when, it was my great pleasure to get to know a number of Soviet dissidents attending NYU. We'd meet at a dinky underground vodka bar in lower Manhattan. I'll never forget what one of them said, "The Soviet Union is not a problem for you. America will be destroyed by Harvard Business School."

[defendandprotect]

54. Presume that's sarcasm? In fact, we've helped move the Mafia into Russia . . .

in order to wreck their economy --- !!!


Plus some profit for the boys ---

[bluesmail]

58. as a matter of fact no it wasn't sarcasm

I was merely posting on how fucked up this planet has become, in general terms. How the Russians/Amerikans/Saudis/ETCETERA are in it to destroy one anothers economy.

[defendandprotect]

59. Well...I kinda recall that the first plans I ever saw for that came from America .. . re Cuba . . .

and there were plans to destroy their crops, kill Castro, and on and on ---

Maybe you recall "Operation Northwoods" --

"Operation Gladio" ---

"Operation Phoenix" ---

"Cointelpro" ---

Our various CIA coups around the world . . .
or did you think that the Russians actually did those and simply blamed us???

Unfortunately, corrupt forces in our own country have led the pack in evil around the world and at home ---

The TORTURERS are, sad to say, home grown ---

[undergroundpanther]

34. This is what you get

When you trust in psychopaths to"lead" as in abuse power and people, dominate and control society as they have been doing for over 2000 years.This sort of boom and bust bullshit has occurred since we let ourselves be "civilized" into top down social hierarchies, the parts crash and recover and this has cycled around and around until the whole thing crashes..At that point we had better come together for each other and abandon all who say they want to lead us to "a better life" or a "promised land",forever.

[defendandprotect]

60. Hierarchies are a large part of social control ---

Certainly part of patriarchy and organized patriarchal religions which underpin patriarchy ---
Capitalism is also a system of hierarchies --- "A ridiculous King-of-the-Hill-System" . . .


They don't tell us much about capitalism in our schools ---
but it sure ain't synonymous with democracy --- !!!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. My grandmother predicted this

She had little formal education, but she lived through the last Depression as an adult (she would have been in her thirties), and she said the signs were there. She didn't live to see our current mess (she died a couple of months into 2000), but it looks as if she was right.

[selador]

40. ridiculous

people have been calling for the end of capitalism incorrectly about as much as they decried that rock n roll is just a fad (hint: it's still going strong).

capitalism works, and it builds wealth

capitalist societies go through all sorts of economic cycles. they are generally , to some extent, unavoidable, and yes - some can suck

so what?

it still works.

no other system rewards innovation, builds wealth, and has the same massive income quintile mobility as capitalism.

[magellan]

44. Except when it's unregulated capitalism. n/t

[selador]

45. I agree

I've never seen an example of that. but it would definitely be a bad idea

[magellan]

80. Are you kidding?

Deregulation of the financial industry by the Repubs has gotten us into the economic fix we're in now. And the next time you'd like to complain about how much your phone bill is, or the price of your cable tv or DSL connection, or the shoddy service/exorbitant price on any number of other things that used to be regulated and governed by anti-trust laws, look no further than the GOP and their laissez-faire attitude towards big business.

I'm not saying the Dems don't have their hands in it too. But the Republicans led the way and have a longstanding reputation for being friendly to big business for good reason.

Of course if you can afford to be shafted left and right every day you won't see this as a problem. But most Americans do.

[Pale Blue Dot]

48. Do you want to place some capitalist money on this, selador?

I see that you don't have a star. I'll bet you a $10 donation to DU that our ecomony is called a "depression" by at least two major news organizations by November.

Will you put your money where your mouth is?

[selador]

57. why would i

bet against something i agree on.

we are in a reession, and the news org's will come around to that

i don't dispute that.

i don't understand where you think i am disagreeing that we are in a recession. you need to read my post again.

read the OP. read my response.

[Pale Blue Dot]

69. "ridiculous

people have been calling for the end of capitalism incorrectly about as much as they decried that rock n roll is just a fad (hint: it's still going strong).

capitalism works, and it builds wealth

capitalist societies go through all sorts of economic cycles. they are generally , to some extent, unavoidable, and yes - some can suck

so what?

it still works.

no other system rewards innovation, builds wealth, and has the same massive income quintile mobility as capitalism."

I just quoted your entire post above.

Still not interested in that bet?

[selador]

73. do you have difficulty

with reading comprehension

i am saying the histrionic rubbish posted in the OP article was ridiculous

i am saying its not the end of capitalism.

i am also AGREEING its a recession

those are entirely different things.

and again, why would i bet AGAINST what i believe to be true.

recessions are not the end of the world, and they are hardly the end of capitalism - a phenomenally effective economic system that has benefited the world and the nations that have chosen it

[femrap]

66. You'll learn.

And the lesson will really, really hurt.

Greed must be controlled. $45 TRILLION of DERIVATIVES! That has yet to hit the fan.

You are going to learn so much.

[selador]

75. learn what?

i frequently trade derivatives

love em

so what?

recession is not the end of the world, and it is hardly the end of capitalism

it's part of the economic cycle. and in the long run - it's healthy

[femrap]

90. You write as if you're on meth...

A recession is nothing like a The Very Great Depression.

'It's healthy,' huh? Unless you can't feed your kids, right? You have some nasty Karma...better go snort some more, you silly Master of the Universe.

buh bye...you kinda make me sick.

[GeorgeGist]

43. If it's any comfort to you ...

The ones at the front of the train usually go first ... unless the train gets rear-ended.

[AZ Criminal JD]

46. Wrong on its facts.

Unemployment hasn't been rising. In fact it just went down 2 tenths of a point on Friday.

[Elwood P Dowd]

55. Real unemployment did not go down!

Hundreds of thousands of long-term unemployed were simply removed from the labor force.

[AZ Criminal JD]

85. You don't know what you are talking about

No one was "removed" from the labor force. The Department of Labor gets these statistics by phoning households across the county. This is the way it has been done since WW II. They are complied by long term career employees with the Labor department. They are Democrats and Republicans. If you are going to argue with the statistics then you have to say were wrong in the Clinton administration, Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Truman, etc.

[femrap]

67. You believe what W tells you? nt

[AZ Criminal JD]

86. No. W didn't tell me anything.

Long-term Labor Department employees, Democrats and Republicans, told me.

[femrap]

91. Doesn't Elaine Chao still serve

as head of The Department of Labor? I believe she tells her 'people' to do as W says. Please don't be naive. These numbers can be massaged however W wants them to be. All statistics can.

Don't be a sheep! Question. Analyze. Think Critically. Please don't believe W...hell he lied us into a war...you think he cares if Elaine fudges on a few employment numbers?

[AZ Criminal JD]

106. You are embarrassing yourself with your ignorance.

It doesn't matter who is Secretary of Labor. The statistics are made up by career professionals - who are both Democratic and Republican in their ideology. To manipulate the statistics would involve the conspiracy of thousands of career professionals. Loosen the tinfoil.

[lonestarnot]

70. I thought I heard it had increased. 164K layoffs in the quarter?

:shrug: And what about all those people who have fallen off the roster because they gave up looking?

[AZ Criminal JD]

87. There have always been layoffs in every quarter since these statistics started.

Economists consider anything below 5% to be as close to full employment as you can get. I don't why some people are not looking for jobs. They are everywhere where I live.

[Greyhound]

71. You're kidding, right?

you have to type; : sarcasm : without the spaces.

[AZ Criminal JD]

88. If you have better stats than the Labor Department please provide them.

[Greyhound]

95. I would but the reports are only available to subscribers and a subscription is over $3000. I have a

2 or 3 year old report around somewhere, I'll look for it. In the meantime, you might want to peruse http://www.shadowstats.com/">Shadow Stats for awhile.

[AZ Criminal JD]

107. What reports?

Labor Department reports are available to the public. If you are talking about reports from some tinfoil group then I'll take a pass on those.

[Zynx]

74. This has happened at least 4-5 times in the last 40 years alone.

It's different each time to be sure. It was rampant inflation in the late 1970s and early 1980s, the S&L crisis in the late 1980s and early 1990s, the stock market collapse of 2000-2002, etc.

[lovuian]

78. its a failed system

always has been

[sarcasmo]

82. Kick and bookmarked.

[leftofthedial]

83. they aren't destroyed

the uber-wealthy who scammed us all will take their loot somewhere else and continue stealing there.

[blindpig]

84. Same shit, different decade

Cycles are indeed part and parcel of Capitalism, the wonder is that people put up with it. The rich may lose millions and still live as though nothing has happened. The working person loses their job and they're done, busted, destitute.

The big difference this time is scale, proportionally more of the economy is in the hands of fewer than before, the stakes are much higher. Our food supply is horribly concentrated and hundreds if not thousands of miles from those who eat. The ultimate threat, starvation, is in the hands of a handful of plutocrats, utter, abject slavery can easily be imposed.

Capitalism will not be tamed or regulated, it goes against the grain, the demands of growth will not be tamed. FDR tried and look, here we are again.

Justice for the people, survival for the planet, end Capitalism.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

89. The reumors of Capitalism's death have been greatly exaggerated

One of the prime motivating forces of capitalism is greed. Until you find a way to exorcise greed from the human condition, there will always be capitalism.

[defendandprotect]

102. No -- capitalism survives because it is repeatedly bailed out by government/taxpayers ---

and we seem to have no way to stop that ---

i.e., welfare for the rich -- free enterprise for the poor!

[trthnd4jstc]

97. If our economy fails, let us try Socialism.

I know many people are scared about Socialism, or the American Communist Party. But, maybe survival is more important than hugely rich people being able to get richer. We do not need to take their actively used property away. The Government can use Eminent Domain on unused factories, wharehouses, depots, etcetera. I have been all over the rust belt performing electrical work. There are huge amounts of abandoned factories, and other buildings. We can use Time Dollars, instead of Federal Reserve Notes, look up Bob Blain on Google. Time Dollars will allow people to be paid based on labor. We can have a world based on economic justice, and mutual aid. Let us end the tyranny of the few over the many. Socialism can be Democratic. End the lies and oppression, begin brotherhood, and sisterhood!

[PsciStudent]

104. it will hurt but it wont be the end

Not sure how this is anything new... the business cycle has always occurred before and there's no evidence that this is going to be any different from all the other recessions.