I'm gonna beat this dead horse

[MichaelHarris]

until it turns to horse pudding. The ricin guy in Vegas is still not considered a terrorist. We know he's white so that eliminates him right there. My question is, if he had put it in the AC unit of a Vegas casino would he be a pissed off white guy or a terrorist? I mean a lot of old people would be scared shitless, even terrorized.

Were any of those people I saw running from the Murrow building in Oklahoma City terrorized? The police and FBI are still saying it's not terror related. For the love feet free fungus, I wish a reporter would ask why it's not terror related.

My earlier post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2949077&mesg_id=2949077

[Captain Angry]

1. If a reporter asks that question...

They hate America, and will lose their job.

On OKC, white supremacists aren't terrorists since you can't tell them apart when they wear judicial robes.

[lapfog_1]

2. He isn't a terrorist if he works for our government

or the Office of Special Projects inside the Pentagon.

I think this was one of their "black bag" jobs gone wrong... otherwise why would the "relative" that showed up know what was in a glass bottle and why it might be important to treating the guy in a coma.

Think about it... The Democrats put YOU at risk by not passing the Protect America Act with the immunity provisions for the telecoms (past immunity and future immunity). Bush told us so. Every day that passes is a dangerous one because they can't legally spy on everyone.

This is the message.

Now suppose a Las Vegas landmark hotel/casino has an "incident" with, say, a few dozen casualties, traced back to OBL and Al Qaeda because some hapless Arab (or maybe Iranian) left his passport somewhere convenient, and he is also killed in the terrorist attack... I bet Congress passes the "Protect America Act" toot sweet, as they say.

But the guy bungled the job and put himself in a coma.

Yeah, probably my tinfoil hat is on... but with good reason.

[MichaelHarris]

5. I'm no

tinfoiler but this is just weird and needs to be followed and questioned constantly.

[malaise]

15. Bingo n/t

[JTFrog]

18. Why wasn't it found when they first showed up and found the guns & handbooks and tested for ricin?

On Tuesday ricin tests were negative and they had only found the two handbooks and firearms. On Thursday a relative shows up and discovers a bottle of ricin, takes it to the front desk and then they retest and get positive results. Something isn't adding up for me. Also they originally said that there were seven people who were in contact and none of them had shown signs. Then a day or two later they say a guy has been in the hospital two weeks. I know facts are just coming out, but it doesn't seem like we will know the truth about this anytime soon.

[lapfog_1]

29. But clearly NOT associated with terrorism

as DHS and the local authorities have repeatedly stated.

Yeah. Guy has weapons and vials of ricin in his hotel room, along with handbooks on ricin... puts himself in the hospital with ricin poisoning. Somebody else shows up and bingo, we have ricin in glass vials... but it's NOT terrorism!

[Occulus]

32. Where is Monk when you really need him?

:silly:

[Elspeth]

25. Hmmm

...

[orleans]

3. you know, i was wondering where one gets ricin these days

can you just pick some up at the lab? take it home (or back to the hotel) in a little vial?

"The poison is derived from the castor bean plant and can be dissolved in water, injected or sprayed. It attacks the liver and the kidneys.

"Castor beans were also found in the room at the hotel, one mile west of the main Las Vegas Strip, police said
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view/20080302-122312/No-threat-of-contamination-in-US-ricin-case--report

did one of those articles about this say the guy was an anarchist not a terrorist?

wait. they found vials? plural?

"``We don't know if the guy was manufacturing the ricin or not, and that's our concern,'' Captain Joseph Lombardo said in a televised press conference today. ``He's not a suspect at this point.''
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aJDzw5xtzzdo&refer=home

why the fuck isn't it your concern joey lombardo???

this is interesting:
"Ricin is also used in experimental cancer treatments"
and
"Used in cancer patients, the poison has shown promise in reducing tumors."
but
"A lethal dose for an adult would be about twice the size of a pinhead"

so...how do you treat a tumor without killing the patient?

did the guy have cancer?
(inquiring minds want to know)


michael, thanks for posting this again and again and again. it is definitely worth keeping in the discussion.

[MichaelHarris]

4. you're welcome

orleans, I know some are tired of it but for some reason I think it's important. Elections are easy to steal if you scare the crap out of people.

[madokie]

16. we have some castor beans that we were/are planning to plant along our fence line as a privacy

fence that one of our friends gave us, anyway they are beautiful plants that grow fast and tall. Down the road from us a ways there are folks who plant them on the east and west sides of their trailer so as to shade the sides in the hot summer sun and I've been told they think it saves them quite a bit on cooling cost. The beans themselves look like brown beans on steriods, kinda pretty as beans go.

[wildflowergardener]

23. castor beans

Just be careful if you have pets and kids.

My grandmothers dog died from eating them.

Meg

[madokie]

28. Thats why they weren't planted last year, the fear factor

and prolly why they won't be this year either. Oh but they are so pretty

[crikkett]

35. they repel gophers - my SIL in Georgia tells me

that a line of castor beans will keep my yummy carrots safe from the greedy critters.

[lapfog_1]

7. Most current cancer treatments are the same

poisons, radiation, etc.

They kill the cancer just before they kill YOU, hopefully.

The better at targeting the cancer the better at killing it before the treatment kills you.

The best way, of course, is to cut the cancer out, hopefully before it spreads. Then follow up with targeted radiation or chemical treatment to kill off any cells that escaped before the surgery.

I don't know how ricin would be used against cancer, or what the delivery method would be... I'm guessing that the dosage would be smaller than the "pinhead" amount which is lethal... probably by cutting it with a substrate of some sort, perhaps saline solution. But it doesn't sound like something you would attempt treatment at home for... but... well, a quick google doesn't show any obvious places where one can go to "brew up" your own cancer treatment from castor beans.

[Angela Shelley]

6. Thanks for keeping this on the table.

[MichaelHarris]

8. you're very welcome

Angela, we have to point out that those who blow up clinics and those who play army in the woods are just as much a terrorist as those who flew those planes into the towers.

[Angela Shelley]

14. I agree with you, Michael.

I had missed the story, and I´m trying to figure out the details. :-)

[FormerOstrich]

9. I'm with you...

this story just does not add up in any way....

However, I have a couple of thoughts/observations:

1) They are now reporting the man has been living in Riverton, Utah. Not too terribly far away from Riverton is "Dugway Proving Grounds".

2) Why did his "cousin" wait a week to travel to Las Vegas to attend to his "cousin's" personal items? Who contacted the "cousin"?

3) Check out the timeline...none of this story makes sense...


2/14 -- Man calls ambulance and taken to hospital... I assume he has been in a coma since then.

2/22 -- Cousin contacts hotel about the Pets.... Did he just find out his cousin was in the hospital? Why the delay?

"Tuesday" -- The hotel manager finds the guns and "anarchist" book. But not the ricin?? Why was the manager pilfering through the stuff before the cousin arrived?

2/28 -- Cousin discovers the Ricin and turns vials over to hotel.

Now -- They want to search the cousin's home but are still waiting for a search warrant..... Why the delay???

I gathered information from here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23426784

[orleans]

10. if that stuff is so lethal then it must have been sealed up pretty

good in those vials to not have any ill effect on anyone else.

it just sounds rather odd.

the whole thing sounds weird.

[DeSwiss]

11. Also from the MSNBC article....

"Authorities have not said how much ricin was involved but expressed confidence they have it all."

- And just how the hell would they know this???

K&R!!!

[mtnester]

12. Your answer may be found in post #2

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2949210&mesg_id=2949230


I am no tinfoiler either, but this one stinks

[DeSwiss]

13. That what I was thinking....

Because they couldn't know they had it all, unless they knew how much he had to start with.....

[madokie]

17. Its amazing how much one can learn simply by reading and listening to what is said or typed

our present government is the biggest terrorist in the world at the moment, I believe that.

[existentialist]

19. Horse pudding?

Got a recipe?

Very good point.

[formercia]

20. One man's terrorist is another's Freedom Fighter.

The FBI was in control of Elohim City and the boys had one of theirs from Germany training the right-wing groups there.

Either it was a major fuck-up or it was an inside job. I vote for option number two.

[frogcycle]

21. It would only have been terror related

if they had successfully associated it with their terror group of choice. But they screwed up and the guy didn't grow a beard and get a turban before he got sick. "Terrorism" by some white guy dilutes the message. We have to keep the focus on Al-Kai-Da. It is easy to say, easy to recite, easy to invoke at the drop of a hat. We can't be cluttering up people's minds with stuff like the Weather Underground bombings in the 70's, or the Unibomber, or the Murrah building, or the Tylenol tampering, or all the hijackings in the 60's/70's, or crimes by drug cartels, or the myriad other threats to individuals that have always been present. We have to focus on a single villainous enemy, just as the Wilson Administration did in WWI (people were arrested for even saying something nice about Germany - there were government ads saying if you didn't buy bonds you were helping the Kaiser).

They would love to copyright the words "terra," "terrism," and "terrist," make them require capitalization. It would be copyright infringement to have ricin or anthrax, or make threats, or try to blow up your shoe without getting an official government certification that you were associated with Al-Kai-Da, and thus furthering the cause of national paranoia and abdication of individual rights.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/23/AR2007032301613.html

[LWolf]

22. A different metaphor, please.

I'm going to go out and give my horses a hug with their morning hay ration.

[wildflowergardener]

24. ricin

Unless he was planning on murdering a person with it, and ended up inhaling it himself.

Meg

[lapfog_1]

30. That would be a hugely boneheaded thing to do.

Let's commit murder by using a toxin that is

a) a WMD, just so we can get the attention of every TLA (three letter agency) there is!

b) is very difficult to handle, making the delivery against a single target almost impossible.

c) is just as likely to kill the assassin as it is to kill the target.

d) while it can be lethal, it certainly isn't that high of a percentage.

e) can be easily traced, especially by those TLAs from a)


There are many ways to murder someone, especially using a poison... Anthrax and ricin would be waaaay down the list of possible choices.

[pdxmom]

26. Evidently, the administration has redefined terrorism to only include

anything done by Arabs/Muslims. Gotta keep that fear factor out there. They have replaced the fear of Communism with the fear of Muslims. It was really evidenced for me when I heard Bay Buchanan talking on CNN about Obama having "Muslim blood". No one called her on it and it will continue, because they have to have some group to hate to unite their party.

[spanone]

27. a reporter? ask a relevant question? bwahahahahaaaa

[notadmblnd]

31. No, they would be blaming a borwn skinned person ,

pretend to be looking for him and calling him a terrorist. My question; could this have been a black ops gone awry? Is that why there is no concern about a white guy being a terrorist? Does what happen in Vegas really stay in Vegas? Is my tinfoil on too tight?

[lapfog_1]

34. bungled inside job.

Yet another ops screw up by the idiots at OSP.

The did the Italian burglary OK, stole the stationary and forged the yellowcake letters. That one allowed for the charges to be made that Iraq was developing nukes.

Probably did the Anthrax mailings as well (after getting some weapons grade stuff from Detrick)... THAT got them the Patriot Act.

Still, they weren't all that smart about things, to many telltales left... like using weapons grade Anthrax, of even bungling the embassy break in enough so that people KNEW there was a break in AND what was stolen.

One wonders what else they've been up to?

It's not the OSP really, that's just the inside Pentagon front operation that funnels the money around. And controlled by those loyal only to Dick Cheney.

[bluesmail]

33. yes, The * Administration

I've said it for years, they are Numero Uno Terrorists. KICK