Anyone who thinks gas prices are not high enough

[liberal N proud]

For whatever reason, GO TO HELL!

ExxonMobil sets annual profit record: $40.6B

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/2008-02-01-exxon_N.htm

:grr: :nuke: :cry:

[ordinaryaveragegirl]

1. Screw ExxonMobil.

We get gouged, and they make $40B. And I'll bet a good chunk of it is going to the $ grubbing, Chimpy-loving execs. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[bryant69]

2. What if you think prices should be higher so as to limit production of green house gases?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[gratuitous]

4. If the price goes higher . . .

If the price goes higher because we're levying more taxes to pay for something worthwhile, that's one thing. The price is going higher in this case to line the overstuffed pockets of overrich petroleum fatcats.

[EOTE]

62. I don't think many people are saying that Exxon Mobil isn't making enough money.

Those on the left suggest that gas prices aren't high enough in order to discourage driving and encourage other forms of transportation. Also, I think they're suggesting lower profit margins and higher taxes to pay for those worthwhile things. I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone suggesting that Exxon's profit margins are too low.

[ixion]

8. good in theory, red herring in practice

people have to drive to get to work. They have to drive to get groceries. Our society is built around roads. I see as much traffic today as I did four years ago, despite the fact that the price of gas has doubled. All you do when you raise the price of gas is make it more difficult for people to get along, and make oil companies rich.

[bryant69]

20. Ah - but are people driving to the movies as much? or non-essential driving?

Maybe in some communties people are choosing to use public transportation more?

I'm not necessarily in favor of this line of thinking either, but it is interesting to consider.

Bryant

[focusfan]

73. Around here they drive thier kids to school instead of ridding the school bus

[northzax]

22. true, it's painful

but if you were moving right now, would you take the larger house farther away, knowing you pay another 6 bucks, minimum, a day in gas? or the smaller house farther in? or do you look for a place that does have public transportation?

you're buying a car, do you buy the one that gets 25 mpg or 30?

do you drive to grandma's house for Easter or take the bus/train/plane? There are decisions you make, every day, about whether or not to use gasoline and how much to use. slowly, those decisions are going to start reflecting the higher price of fuel, and we will begin to shift.

[LSK]

24. whats the average MPG of European cars and why is that?

[XboxWarrior]

61. No quote feature......

But I ride my Harley in the Summer, all across the West......

There are way fewer big ass motorhomes towing lexus 4x4's than
back in the 90's.

I drive a suby 4x4 in the winter, 28 mpg........so prices don't bother
me too much @ $2.70 here in the mountains of CO.

But I don't believe Exxon/Mobile should get the tax breaks they do.

I'm kinda socialist that way.......in fact, I would go so far
as nationalizing the petro biz in the US.

p.s. I also drive a '73 VW Bus.......call me a Commie

[MrCoffee]

17. It's the only thing that will force a shift in consumer purchasing

When gas is too expensive to drive the Excursion, no one will drive the Excursion.

[liberal N proud]

21. That is pure bull shit

[LSK]

23. why?

[liberal N proud]

35. This country does not have the mass transit to offset the driving

I have to drive to get to work. Not close enough to walk or ride bike and have time to get there and home again. Plus the climate is not conducive to peddling this time of year.

90% of America is completely dependant upon our gas guzzling autos. We can't change that because that is what the car companies offer.

Most of my family lives 1000 miles away or more, air travel is not an option. I will not drive a tiny tin can because I am not a big enough Tree Hugger.

I realize we need to care for the environment but pricing people out of the automobile is the dumbest fucking plan in all time. Anyone wants to argue that can just go fly a fucking kite.

[northzax]

38. where can I get me one of them kites?

your chosen lifestyle (where you live, where you work, what you drive) was determined under lower priced gasoline, I assume? Guess what? those prices are gone, and they ain't coming back, without a global economic catastrophe. so what are you going to do about it? you won't drive a tin can, you are going to have to a: move closer to work, b: get a job closer to home, c: buy a more efficient automobile or d: spend more money for gas. You can't afford your lifestyle anymore because it was predicated on a poor understanding of economics in the first place. Sorry.

in five years, when gas is still at these levels, are you still going to be complaining, or will you have made changes to reduce YOUR need to purchase as much? you can't worry about everyone else, you can only worry about yourself.

[liberal N proud]

48. Oh and I can easily sell my house and move to the inner city

LOL!

NOT!

[northzax]

53. then pay more for gas

I'm sorry, I know it is painful, but it's the way of the world. Your lifestyle was based on a cheap, plentiful supply of a non-renewable resource. That resource is no longer as cheap or plentiful, through no fault of your own (actually, the fault is pretty much in the hands of China and India). That must be very frustrating for you. But you are simply going to have to learn to accept that transportation prices are not going back down and adjust your life accordingly.

my condolences.

[liberal N proud]

54. Screwed coming and going

And you think it is tough shit.

When will America stand up and do something about getting screwed?

Damn we are stupid when we legitimize ever fucking time someone rips us off.

[northzax]

57. ok, what do you propose?

let's zero out ExxonMobil's profits from the extraction, transportation, refining and retailing of gasoline. they are doing it simply for cost now, ok? the local gas station doesn't make a profit, the trucking company, the pipeline, the refinery, nothing. So, let's break it down a bit, shall we?

there are 42 gallons of liquid in a barrel of oil. you get about 28 gallons of gasoline from that barrel (And byproducts for the rest, like heating oil, plastics, etc) the current price of a future barrel of oil (to be delivered in 6 months) right now in New York is $89.12/bbl. So, taking the 42 gallons/bbl number, crude petroleum in New York currently costs $2.12/gallon. before it is refined at all. I saw gasoline in DC yesterday for $3.04/gl. That includes federal tax of $.18 and DC taxes of $.17 (for a total of $.35 in taxes. So the actual price the station was charging was $2.69/gallon before taxes. that's really not a lot, when you look at the price someone paid for the crude, right? for $.57, someone refined it, transported it and sold it. not a bad price, really.

or are you planning to do something about the price of oil on the global scale?

[liberal N proud]

59. How about alternative energy sources?

Let's face it mass transit will never work in most of this country, we are spread too far apart.

Electric cars, Hydrogen fuel cell?

For home heating, what ever happened to the heat pump and ground source heating? Many places cities will not allow you to use ground source within city limits.

Solar power, and wind power. But no, all this country can do is continue to consume oil and cry about peak oil.
Then the ultra tree hugger's think it should be priced out of reach to reduce consumption. All that will do is raise the price of everything else as long as we remain on gasoline.

[wuushew]

39. What do you consider a "tiny" car?

:shrug:

[liberal N proud]

49. Prius is too small to ride 1000 miles in

I owned a 1982 Chrysler Le Baron (K car body style). I could not ride 1000 mile in that car and it was considered a small luxury car at the time.

Mid size sedan is comfortable for a family of 4 to ride across country. Large enough that people are not shoulder to shoulder.

[NickB79]

82. Rent a car for the rare times you drive cross-country

It is cheaper than owning a large car 365 days a year that gets poor gas mileage, and saves wear and tear on your primary vehicle.

[El Pinko]

88. I drove from Florida to California in a 1995 Escort wagon.

And it was quite comfortable, actually. Put the back seats down and laid down a foam mattress so the kids could lay down and watch DVDs. Luggage was on the luggage rack. A car needn't be huge to be comfortable, unless you're morbidly obese or something.

Something like this:



Only mine had hubcaps.

Got better than 35 mpg highway and could carry tons of cargo...

[LSK]

40. you would not have to drive a tin can if American cars used diesel

For example:

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/jeep-cherokee-1005833.html

[liberal N proud]

50. IF

But they don't so I shouldn't be punished for what the automakers sell us.

[Michigan-Arizona]

74. I have a diesel pickup

I'm paying 0ver 70 cent's more per gallon over unleaded. Diesel repair's & part's seem to cost more so I'm not sure where the saving's today would be owning a diesel vehicle. Just my opinion of course

[wuushew]

78. A agree the savings are largely illusory

For instance comparing otherwise similar cars like the 2006 Volkswagen Jetta shows us the following information.

The 4-Dr Sedan diesel has/had an MSRP of $23,990

The 2.5L non-turbo gasoline edition develops similar levels of torque and trim package for a MSRP of $20,290.


If we amortize those two prices over a 36-month loan, assuming 7.3% nominal interest rate we get the following: (Diesel)$158.60 a month (Gasoline)$134.14.


So what then is the cost of fuel assuming 10,000 miles a year?
Current diesel prices = $3.26 a gallon
Current gasoline prices = $2.98 a gallon


Diesel: $1,009 a year/$84 a month
Gasoline: $1355 a year/$113 a month


I have no source of data for typical car repair costs or insurance costs.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm">fuel economy by model

http://www.cars.com/go/compare/trimCompare.jsp?acodes=USB60VWC033A0,USB60VWC033B0,USB60VWC033D0,USB60VWC033F0&compType=D">Volkswagon model info

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp">national fuel prices

http://aol1.bankrate.com/selaol/rate/auto_home.asp">current car loan rates

[Pavulon]

85. You forgot Time between major overhaul...

average diesel beyond 250,000. Average gas, much less.

Diesel is by design a heavier constructed machine. It is more efficient and can be just as clean.

Many modern diesels from mercedes and gm (europe) measure telemetry of each rpm. So they constantly adjust for efficiency and emissions.

[wuushew]

86. Yeah, I realized that after the fact

plus I think most normal people probably drive 15,000 miles a year or more so a person would definitely see a savings over the life of the vehicle.

[Pavulon]

84. I own 3 diesel vehicles

I pickup which gets 17 - 22 mpg and runs on b20. This costs more. My wife drives a bluetec diesel and it gets 38 - 42 mpg. It runs on b20. It has 33k miles on it and should have no maint cost until beyond 100k miles.

An e320 is a full size car that you would happily drive cross country, it can cruise at over 120mph, and is built like a brick shithouse. Great used car deal.

The last diesel is an 240d circa 82. It has over 300,000 miles. I swapped the dash a while back so not sure the exact mileage. I drove this car for years. This is a project car, but gets 35mpg. Also runs b20.

Diesels last forever.

I work for a tool and die company and we use diesel trucks and suburbans for fleet. They run forever so by not replacing them every 5 years you save big money.

The diesel is 20% more efficient than an equiv gas engine.

[bryant69]

41. Well are pepole going to have the desire tochange that if Gas is cheap? n/t

[The2ndWheel]

44. Or was pricing people into the automobile

the worst fucking idea of all time?

Either way, you have to give to get. Easier long distance travel, more environmental impact. Stuck with the two legs, can't do as much. The best anyone can do is break even.

[CRF450]

58. I'm not a big enough tree hugger either.

Thats why I drive an 01 Trans Am which is so much more fun to drive than a little tin can:) But for such a high powered performance car it does get respectable fuel milage. I average around 22-23mpg and have reached 31mpg on the interstate going 74mph. Thats coming from a 345hp 5.7 v8.

[dysfunctional press]

63. you posted before that you live 5 miles from work, and 2 miles from the grocery store...

LOTS of people bike those kinds of distances, even in cold weather. my former neighbor was a chicago school teacher who rode his bike to work 6 miles each way, year round.

and pricing gas so that people are motivated to find alternatives would be one of the best things we could do environment AND economy-wise.

[bobbolink]

26. Yeah, screw poor folk! It's the Democratic way! The party of the People!

Fuck those poor people...... let 'em eat cake!

Fuck this shit!

[wuushew]

33. What is the alternative?

Maybe if the stupid Michigan Congressional delegation would stop fighting higher CAFE standards we could acutally get somewhere.

Global warming is a real threat you know.

[bobbolink]

45. Poverty is a real threat, you know. People DIE from it.

Does it matter to you?

What the fuck has happened to the Democratic party?

You shit on us, then laugh and say, "But you have to vote for us."

Look at yourselves!!

Shame!

[bryant69]

42. Or, alternative, we could chamption effective mass transportation

That would be cheaper from both an individual and community perspective.

Bryant

[bobbolink]

46. Hey! Here's a thought! This worked before!

Try rationing!

It worked.

But, of course, it would hurt you, too, and we can't have that, now can we??

As long as it only hurts poor folk, then you're fine with it.

FUCK!

[redqueen]

47. Yup... worked fine before...

even though spoiled citizens thought it was just AWFUL. :eyes:

[bryant69]

52. You got it - fuck poor people.

Thank you for diagnosing me so accurately. And while we are at it, there's another person I'd like to say fuck off to, but rules prohibit it, so I will hold my tongue.

Bryant

[librechik]

81. I think a vast majority of that increase should be paid by the oil companies

in order to pay for the problems caused by their dangerous products--and the rest to research to get off polluting technology for good.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

3. Yet the government gives them extensive tax breaks to keep gas prices low

Does it make any sense to anyone why we're giving them these tax breaks and paying inflated gasoline prices while they're posting record profits?

Didn't think so.

[Spider Jerusalem]

5. Ummm...

gasoline prices are significantly higher in the US than *everywhere* in the developed world, still.

There's also this little thing called 'supply and demand'; maybe you've heard of it...it's the reason crude oil is trading at near $100 a barrel (demand from India and China added to demand from US/Europe/Japan/Oceania, plus the little fact that net petroleum production seems to have peaked in 2006 and not increased above those levels since).

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. And yet, this oil company - one of MANY - takes in 40.5 BILLION

in PROFITS.

The high price may reflect peak oil, but how many hundreds of billions do the oil companies take off the top, and pass THAT cost down to the consumer?

There is a disconnect there.

[Spider Jerusalem]

7. Market dynamics drive the price up.

Production costs don't increase as much. Therefore, profits increase. It's simple and basic economics. (And given the evidence of peak oil, I don't really see that, say, price controls, which would encourage GREATER use of oil, are a good thing.)

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Market dynamics my sweet white ass.

They are grabbing everything they can while there is still something there to grab, and screw the rest of us.

You just don't get it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

10. No, you don't get it

Demand increases; supply remains flat; prices go UP. It's an inevitable fact. As long as oil remains a commodity traded on an open market, this will remain the case. Oil prices were significantly lower a decade ago because supply greatly outpaced demand (before the explosive economic growth of China and India). And there's *nothing* that can be done about it; price controls on oil in the US will not affect world market prices, and the US doesn't, and can't, produce enough oil to meet demand without imports.

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. You are ignoring part of the equation.

Demand increases; supply remains flat; prices go up TO MEET DEMAND. They do NOT go up to such a degree as to provide the industry with hundreds of billions of PROFITS. THAT is called 'gouging'. They effectively have a monopoly, and can charge whatever they want, because they have no competition. In normal competetive markets, the competition mitigates the price rise because the consumer will always pay the lowest possible price for equivalent products. Though prices may rise, the profit margin remains roughly the same - such a profit margin does not account for one company making 40 billion dollars in profit.

They control production, distribution, and price without competition and we have no other place to go - THAT explains those profits.

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. you're neglecting the open market.

Also, see below re profit margins; that's addressed elsewhere in the thread.

[northzax]

31. 'they'? you mean ExxonMobil?

seems that there are a few other companies and countries with a noted interest in production, refining, transportation and distribution, I can think of a couple off the top of my head: CITGO (damn, chavez IS screwing us over, gas ain't no cheaper at CITGO than ExxonMobil), ChevronTexaco, BP, Shell/Royal Dutch...you want I should keep going? you think they're all in on it? together?

[lildreamer316]

OT. WHERE have you been????

SO good to see you!
Hope you are well.

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. I've been away from DU for a while...

burnout, I suppose...but politics is like herpes; once you have the bug, it has a tendency to flare up again...heh

And I'm good; thanks for asking :) Hope you're well, too.

[northzax]

25. you mean 'lower', right?

gas prices in the US are lower than in the rest of the developed world? :hi:

[Spider Jerusalem]

29. Right...

mistyped

*smacks self*

[northzax]

32. figured

didn't make a whole lot of sense the other way!

[bicentennial_baby]

43. Hey hey! It's YOU!

Long time no see brother! :bounce:

:hi:

[Spider Jerusalem]

70. Yeah, I've been away...

:hi:

[Lilith Velkor]

56. Spider!!!

Good to see you again!

:toast:

[Spider Jerusalem]

71. Thanks...

you too :)

[melm00se]

11. have you looked at their revenue?

a 10.3% net margin isn't overly excessive. it is a lot less than some companies earn: Cisco 21%, Apple 14.5%, Intel 14%, Pepsi 15% and Proctor & Gamble 13% to name a few (in fact I don't think that Exxon is in the top 100 when it comes to profit margin).

Yes, both numbers (revenue and profit) are absolutely staggering in sheer size but when compared as a percentage of total revenue it kind of snaps into focus that there are other companies who, if they scaled, to the same size, revenue-wise, their numbers would actually be higher.

[RB TexLa]

15. And their profit margin was down for the quarter from a year ago

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. Who Is Stupid Or Selfish Enough To Think They're Not High Enough???

Special kind of dumb to think that.

[LSK]

27. people concerned about Global Warming n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. I'm Concerned About Global Warming, But I Could Never Say Something So Blatantly Selfish And Asinine

Such a sentiment is beyond narrow minded.

[Subdivisions]

36. I am stupid ehough to think that. I happen to want my

children and my grand-children and their descendants to have at least a little time before all the oil is gone. If the price was higher, people everywhere would think twice about how they use it - or how they waste it.

And there will come a time when there is no more oil available to us. After all, every action our government has taken for the past 8 years can be traced back to oil.

[ReformedChris]

14. It's a Triple Threat: Future Traders, Oil Companies, and Governments

Governments play games that cause unrest, traders sieze the unrest to jack up prices, and oil companies scape up profit from the consumers. Absolutely despicable. The only way to defeat this is through superior technology and alternative transportation. Im going to get the Chevy Volt the second the damn thing hits the market.

[Initech]

16. This is why I think profits should be taxed the same way lotto winnings are.

What the fuck do they even do with this money? Or the obscene profits they made any of the other years since this god forsaken war started? Get it taxed and get this money out of their greedy fucking hands and back in the economy, our infrastructure, and our schools where it fucking belongs. :grr:

[northzax]

28. well, they either invest it

or they pay it as a dividend to stockholders. what else would they do? you don't think it's in hundreds under someone's matress, do you?

[Initech]

30. I thought it sat in some overseas bank account generating interest.

Or it goes to the huge hundred-million dollar retirement/severance packages their CEOs get.

[northzax]

34. and what does that bank do with it?

oh right, lend it out. doing things like giving you a mortgage. bastards.

[liberal N proud]

72. Indoor Ski Resorts in the Desert

[northzax]

87. that is not a company

that is an oil producing country. It is, afterall, Dubai's oil, they can spend their profits as they will, you wouldn't suggest we force them to sell their natural resources to the west at less than market value, would you? Seems unfair to ask them for that, don't you think? Oil and sand are pretty much all they have. Should Venezuela also sell oil at below market value to the US? what do the OPEC countries, who have been nothing but fucked over by the west for hundreds of years, owe us, exactly?

[melm00se]

37. You can find that

out, it is all included in the annual report in the financials. You amy want to review it.

In 2006, a large portion of their profit went to a stock buy back which did put that money back into the economy as for every buyer there is a seller and those sellers could range from institutional investors (mutual funds, pension funds and the like) to Bob who bought his shares thru a DRIP or ESPP program.

[uppityperson]

55. Less to profits, more to taxes, and then I get to decide what to do with tax money

That is my plan.

[RadiationTherapy]

60. Just to be clear; that is 40,600 MILLION dollars.

Dr. Evil's head is spinning!

[One_Life_To_Give]

64. Add $1 per gallon

People might actually use less. We might start to "Gasp" pay down the deby and have a currency thats worth something again.

[taterguy]

65. Do those us with mixed feelings about the issue go to purgatory?

I agree with the theory with higher gas prices might lead to lower consumption which would be a good thing.

Here's the problem: Most of the wasted gas involves short trips. People get in their cars to go everywhere, even places that can be easily walked or biked to. And since the trip is short most people don't pause to consider how much it adds up. Half of my co-workers live as close to work as I do. They're all good liberals and none of them are rich. However, I'm the only one who bikes to work because there's not enough of an economic incentive to do otherwise. My motivation for biking isn't economic and there are days when I drive.

For my co-workers to seriously consider alternatives the price of gas would have to be about four or five times what it is now, and well, I'm opposed to that because I do enjoy the occasional road trip. :)

[GOPBasher]

66. It's true that they can bring the prices down, if we didn't pay for excessive profits. However,

oil prices will keep going up, so even if the gas companies stop ripping us off, we'll still be paying a shitload at the pump. Sorry. That's just a fact of life for all of us. My family and I have no choice but to drive, just like you, and these prices are killing us. But we can't change geology. The car companies can make cars much more fuel efficient, we can use diesel, we can slowly move toward electrification and biofuels, we can build some more mass transit infrustructure, etc. There are plenty of things we can do, but if you think that gas will ever be $2.00/gallon again, you're sadly mistaken.

[liberal N proud]

68. I don't ever expect to see $2.00 gas again

but to think it should be priced higher to curb consumption is just ludicrous.
Maybe those people should just pay double when they fill up.

[doc03]

67. Well if the price of gas was too high

so many people wouldn't be going out and buying bigger and bigger vehicles would they? I personally think they are too high though.

[depakid]

69. Logically, a windfall profits tax is in order

as are higher gas prices.

Shortsighted Americans have doomed themselves- but more importantly, they've royally screwed over their children through cheap subsidized petroleum.

[JosephSchmo]

75. Short term it is painful, long term it is necessary

It takes thousands of years to create a drop of oil and only a fraction of second to use it. We are using oil faster than it is being created.

It will run out. This is a simple fact.

If we build our whole infrastructure around gas prices kept artificially low, then when the day comes that we must conserve it will be a pain much worse than a 50 dollar fill up.

I'm no expert on world oil supply, but a lot of smart people suggest that we have already peaked.

So the sooner we get our society to prepare for this, the better. That means driving more fuel efficient cars, living closer to work, growing food closer to where we live etc.

Keeping the price low (with our tax dollars) will not diminish the pain, only concentrate it.

[liberal N proud]

76. Raising the price is not the answer - Providing alternatives is.

[JosephSchmo]

80. High price and looking for alternatives are very correlated

Why would anyone look for alternatives if gas was a buck a gallon?

[B Calm]

77. If only my wages would climb as fast as gas prices...

[Xenotime]

79. I think I am going to be sick....WHY AREN'T WE TAXING THOSE FUCKERS!?!?

[NickB79]

83. Enjoy it now, for in a few years you'll be lucky to afford a tank of gas

Make whatever adjustments you can now, because nothing is going to change the fact that the era of cheap oil is over.