Do liberals have closed minds?

[baby_mouse]

Extracted this topic from a thread elsewhere.

Its typical of us lot to accuse the pukes of being close-minded. But occasionally someone will make the observation that liberals are just as close-minded.

(This is not something that *I* believe, before you all incinerate me...)

What do you think, liberals?

[Bonobo]

1. Well...

Go and visit our sister forum and you tell me.

[baby_mouse]

10. Ye-es, that's what I think, however...

There appear, interestingly, to be some people currently on this site who have observed us and our... cough, "sister" forum (I think of them more as a sort of "unsightly skin infection" forum) who do genuinely believe that that site and DU are essentially equally close-minded.

[orleans]

12. yes, i've been reading one poster in particular. very new here. argues

and twists words around. i keep thinking that poster has spent too much time at that other place.

[Bonobo]

19. Is it a liquidy kind of name?

[baby_mouse]

20. Certainly the person *I* was thinking of had a fluidish sort of bent. NT

[Bonobo]

21. Agua by any other name is still agua.

[orleans]

36. um...rather liquidy

when melted

[water]

53. Hello :)

To be honest, I wasn't using "closed-minded" as an insult. I actually think there some good in being firm in your beliefs.

If you look at everything objectively, the chances of many posters here becoming libertarian/conservative are just as slim as many posters at FR becoming libertarian/liberal.

[Sanctified]

2. I don't think being liberal or conservative makes one close minded.

I think it's just some people are close minded and have set in their mind on what is absolutely correct and refuse to listen to the other side. I have caught myself being very closed minded when it comes to certain subjects.

[bridgit]

3. i think some do and clearly so, no where near like pugs, neo-nuts & such...

that are dipped in concrete, and yes, again...clearly so

[NashVegas]

4. That's a Pretty Blanket Statement

Mostly, I would say 'no.'

The only liberals I would say 'yes' of are those who so strongly self-identify with what they believe a liberal to be they become rigid in their thinking.

[TygrBright]

5. Which liberals? On what subject(s)? n/t

[baby_mouse]

7. Is that rhetorical?

[TygrBright]

27. Not at all.

[baby_mouse]

30. Well, okay, I don't know how to answer you, then...

... as the poster who prompted this thread was no more specific than I.

[TygrBright]

34. Well, that might be a clue about something...

Generalizing about a whole class of people based on subjective impressions of a subset of that class (or worse, an individual!) shows, to say the least, sloppy and imprecise thinking patterns.

Why waste your time?

curiously,
Bright

[baby_mouse]

37. Don't follow you.

What are you asking of me?

[TygrBright]

40. Well, it appears that your OP was in response...

...to another poster's online actions/posts. And, from what was in your OP and subsequent elucidations, it appears that the precise spur for your response was the other poster's generalization.

Of a whole class of individuals (liberals) based on a subjective impression of a subset (or even a few individuals) thereof.

You might consider whether it's worth your valuable posting time and creative energy (you DO post some very interesting, thoughtful stuff here, y'know) to respond, and solicit others' responses, to such flummery.

Not that the discussion hasn't been interesting, and all.

But with so many topics and opportunities for substantive discussion of real issues...

diffidently,
Bright

[baby_mouse]

41. Ohhhhh, welll

Since you flatter me so, dear... :D

You're right, really. It just touched a nerve in me as I'm getting DAMN curmudgeonly in my liberal "old age". I suppose I thought casting it out to the DU hive mind could produce some clues. Availing myself of the cluefulness of many brains to "clean house"... just in case. I was rather hoping that some people might bing forth some examples of their own...

Still. I guess I do think some liberals are close-minded on *some* things. Some liberals have an anti-authority streak (which I would differentiate from an "anti-authoritARIAN" streak) that can be... unhelpful. Naturally, this would probably deserve it's own thread...

[DS1]

6. Yes, I'm closed-minded

I can't stand people who can't accept the way others live. They turn me off, I wish they'd go away.

I'm closed-minded to people who vote on a candidate based on their looks. I don't think they should vote.

I'm closed-minded towards those who hate others based on their sexual preference. I don't want to deal with them.

I'm closed-minded towards those who would slam unions, while wishing their employers treated them better, and at the same time vote GOP

[bridgit]

"I can't stand people who can't accept the way others live." you must hate the people that hate me

:thumbsup:

[DS1]

28. I'm not afriad to use the word 'hate'

some cover it up with 'dislike', and 'understanding', but I hate people who can't accept the way others live. I know that doesn't make sense on many levels, but that's how it is. I hate their intolerance.

[baby_mouse]

31. I'm comfortable with hate. It's weaselly to tell people to acquiesce to bullying because not doing

so is "hating" the bully. I HATE bullies and I hate snotty arrogance and I hate the people the propagate it. Rush and co are top of my hate list. Vile cretins.

[DCKit]

38. I prefer the word "detest".

To me, "hate" implies a knee-jerk emotional response, while "detest" seems to encompass not only a cerebral and emotional component, but also a deep seated disdain - as if the thing you are criticizing is beneath contempt, low, mean and dirty.

It's only two letters more, but, to me, it speaks volumes. Further, if you say it just right, it sounds as of you're spitting at the same time.

[baby_mouse]

42. Beard-stroky CONTEMPLATION of your suggestion...

I like it...

[BeHereNow]

8. Hell YES.

People who worship the "idol" without
examining the agents promoting him/her are every bit as
tunnel visioned as the folks who
voted for the Bush and the neocon regime.

This is to the advantage of the neocon regime who are
currently producing the show called "Democratic Candidates"
and a complicit congress.

BHN

[MADem]

9. Ideologues of any stripe tend to be close-minded. They also tend to be scolds.

If you don't march with them in lockstep, you're a heretic.

Ideologues are tiresome. And you find them at every far end of the spectrum.

[Raejeanowl]

24. What You Said x 2 n/t

[orleans]

11. ? i confess: i used to be very accepting of EVERYONE, very tolerant of

EVERYONE, very understanding of EVERYONE

now?

politically--i have little acceptance and tolerance for the bigoted, prejudiced, intolerant, selfish, greedy & cruel. i have far less understanding of them than i did.

[baby_mouse]

13. But is that what one might understand to be "close-mindedness"?

I don't that its meaningful to call that response close-minded, I think it's just the result of a completed process.

What further information should one be open to, to accept, regarding bigotry, selfishness and greed? Close-mindedness is an inability to accept new VALID information.

[orleans]

22. here's the thing--

i USED to be so fucking open minded that when friends of mine or acquaintances would tell racial jokes, ethnic jokes, etc. i would not say a fucking thing. sometimes i would smile politely.

i found it very sad and offensive. but i wouldn't speak out.

one day i read something that had a major impact on me (written by a black author--but i forget who), saying that if you don't speak up and you don't react, your silence is basically approval for what is being said.

so...i tried it. and i spoke up again and again. i wasn't as quiet and polite as i had been. it went from: "i don't think that's funny" to "i find that offensive" to "i don't want to hear that offensive shit and if you're going to talk like an asshole around me then i'm getting the fuck out of here."

i think that was the problem with a lot of laid-back, tye-dyed, bleeding heart liberals. we were so fucking accepting of others that people who were real pieces of shit thought it was okay to be the way they were, do the crap they did, talk the way they talked.

and it's not okay.

so now--i don't tolerate that anymore. i won't put up with people like that anymore. and i make it real clear why.

now, if you want to explain to me why it should be okay for anyone to act out their hatred on someone else (due to skin color or sexual orientation or for whatever reason) i'm letting you know i will not be bothered listening. because, for some things, there is no excuse or justification.

i'm just not as open-minded as i used to be. (but in a good way)

[DemGa]

14. Oh no, no

I'm only unreceptive to new ideas or arguments when I know I'm right. ha ha

I think it's a question of rigidity in thought over a period of time. Who will evolve or become more expansive in their views? My bet is the conservative easily remains more static.

[flowomo]

15. well, here's a test:

Ask people to post one significant political issue/idea on which they have changed their minds in the last, oh, two years. Presumably, open-minded people change their minds now and then after hearing/seeing new evidence. Of course, some call that flip-flopping... but that's another story.

[baby_mouse]

16. DING DING!

I like you!

[flowomo]

17. I'll leave it to you to post that question as a separate thread...

could be interesting.

[John Q. Citizen]

23. I'm not sure that really discloses if a person has an open or closed mind. It's

too simplistic of a test.

If I said, (this is hypothetical) "I used to believe that peaceful protests should be allowed, since it's peoples right under the constitution, but now I believe all protestors should be shot, peaceful or not" Let's assume the new evidence was that protestors are protesting my candidate. Would that indicate I had an open mind?

Yet it would meet the criteria as put forth in your post.

[flowomo]

25. not everything that meets the criterion is proof of an open mind...

but open-mindedness requires the criterion be met, at least now and then. A permanently unchanged mind is a closed mind, no?

[John Q. Citizen]

35. No one has a permanently unchanged mind. And changing your mind on an

issue in the last two years doesn't indicate a necessarily open mind.

I see it more as a spectrum, not as either open or closed.

[DS1]

29. Crap argument

I've been open to gay rights, as an example for the last lets say 5 years, and haven't changed my opinion on it. Does that make me closed-minded or does that make me a republican.

I suppose that one of my friends, a duer named meegbear should expect me to turn on him any minute now.

[baby_mouse]

32. Woah! You're entangling several strands there.

It's a test, not an argument and the poster doesn't seem to me to make any claim that it proves anything.

[rasputin1952]

18. Yes...regardless of political stripe, there are always...

closed minds.

I think the GOP has far more than D's, but we have our own, and it is often quite obvious.

It should be noted though, that just because someone does not accept another's POV, does not mean they are automatically closed minded or bigoted. Each person have their reasons and priorities, and it is their right ot follow the path they choose.

Just because someone else has a view, does make that view correct for all others, and a person should not be crucified because they go against the grain...most of our great thinkers have gone against the grain, and in time, some of them have become heroes...:)

[Political Heretic]

26. Everyone is capable of being closed minded at times - left or right.

Human beings tend to have cherished beliefs or favored truths. It is very easily to become rigid in defense of them, and avoid consideration of factors that might challenge them.

I think it would be a tragic exaggeration to suggest that in general, liberals are just as likely to be closed minded as conservatives. The reason for this is that the very conservative ideology is inherently built on a certain degree of closed-mindedness. It is much more dependent on black and whites, concrete absolutes, best practices, universals and simplified thinking. Liberal thinking, by its very nature is more fluid, more interested in exceptions to the rule, more able to see variance, shades of grey, etc.

So liberals and conservatives, in general, are not "the same" in terms of the potential for closed mindedness. But just because we're not "the same" does not mean we should ignore the potential for dogmatism or closed mindedness on our side of the fence. It's there. Some areas where such dogmatic absolutism often rears its ugly head:

-- guns
-- religion
-- personal choices that offend the sensibilities of someone (ex. smoking, how one raises children)
-- freedom of speech when it comes to speech we disagree with

To name a few.

[mikus1975]

33. Conserves want to control our life.

Liberals want to live and let live. Not to be dictated by someone else.Conservative want forced and legislated morality.

[RaleighNCDUer]

39. Depends on how you define it.

Liberals are liklier to listen to the other side than they are to us, but as liberals live in a place called 'reality' it would take some seriously cogent arguments to change a liberal's mind to a conservative stance.

As my dad used to say, there's a difference between an open mind and a hole in the head.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swamp Rat]

44. By definition, no.

However, they may be some who call themselves "liberals," but are in fact conservative thinkers.

[readmoreoften]

45. I don't want an "open mind"; I want equality, justice, and reason.

I'm not open to fascism, predatory economics, or religious dogmatism. I'm not open to cowardice and capitulation. I'm not open to using individuals as means to an ends. Individuals are ends in themselves.

If you are committed to injustice, predatory behavior, exclusionism--you are my enemy and I will fight you. If you suddenly have an "awakening" and take up a commitment to justice, equality, and reason I will be happy to fight beside you. But if you enjoy injustice and benefit from inequality and you make up silly, irrational arguments to back up your privileges, I will fight you to the death with the same passion as someone trying to kill someone beloved to me. Because you are a predator and your behavior is destroying someone who is precious to someone. And, believing that people are equals, I am required to fight for justice no matter who it concerns.

Open-mindedness and radical ethical relativism are not identical (or even closely related, really...)

[MedleyMisty]

49. I think we could be great friends

I totally agree.

[Greyhound]

46. In general, I've found that most Americans are very narrow-minded,

and "liberals" are no exception.

For example, it was "liberals" that set up and administered the programs established in Johnson's "war on poverty" which guaranteed that the participants would be forever locked into the cycle of poverty. It was through their own built-in prejudices and inability to conceive of, let alone accept, lifestyles and cultures other than their own, that they ensured it's ultimate failure.

Their basic fallacy was that if there was a man in the house he could and would have the ability to support the family. While this was true for white, middle class, Americans, it was not so for those that didn't fit this profile. They simply dictated that it would be so for everybody, regardless of the facts, and effectively broke down the only support structure that existed for the lower classes, the nuclear and extended family. There are numerous examples of "liberals", as a group, being completely closed-minded throughout our history.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. no but asking people to have an open mind to what is unscientific and just plain illogical

is idiotic

ie: why can you be open minded about donnie mcclurkin?

[U4ikLefty]

48. I refuse to engage in such thinking.

[hack89]

50. They can be - University speech codes come to mind. nt

[NuttyFluffers]

51. of course, they're human just like everybody else. but it depends on the subjects.

and even then, they aren't as narrowminded as reactionary type people. we all have our biases, that cannot be overcome. what we can do is mitigate as many as we can by patience and listening.

now ask yourself, are people here on DU always patient and listening? nooo. but people in general are not always patient and listening. to have an open mind requires listening to others and giving them the space to speak. we as humans cannot always reach that ideal. we short-circuit discussions frequently with what we are edit from what others say, extrapolate according to our assumptions, cross-reference it with our values, and either a) accept and agree b) reject and attack or c) tolerate and wait for further info to push speaker back into A) or B).

listening is a very difficult skill. and though there may be a larger group of people with good listening skills in a progressive category, that in no way precludes that people can be progressive with deeply atrophied listening skills.

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. Maybe yes, maybe no. I've yet to be convinced either way. n/t

[tabasco]

54. Liberals are intolerant of bullshit propaganda.

The truth does not lie "somewhere in the middle" of the truth and lies.