What Exactly Is a "Jesuitical Argument"?

[CorpGovActivist]

Yikes.

I'm re-watching the interview that Senator Clinton gave on MTP from earlier today, and the series of questions about her IWR vote produced this quote:

"You know, look, judgment is not a single snapshot. Judgment is what you do across the course of your life and your career ..."

Russert tries to ask a follow-up, and the two talk over each other for a moment.

"You know, well, you know, Tim, we could have this - uh - Jesuitical - uh - argument about what exactly was meant. You know, when Chuck Hagel, who helped to draft the resolution said it was not a vote for war, when I was told directly by the White House in response to my question - if you are given this authority, will you put the inspectors in and permit them to finish their job - I was told that's exactly what we intended to do. Now, I think it's important to take a look at the entire context here. If Senator Obama is gonna get credit for his speech and his position against the war, then he deserves to be asked what happened in Oh-3, Oh-4, Oh-5, Oh-6, and Oh-7."

Oh, brother.

But wouldn't that devolve into a Jesuitical Argument?

- Dave

P.S. On edit, here is the http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/">MTP page with the Netcast and transcript.

P.P.S. On further edit, I thought just about everyone knew about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Russert">Tim Russert's Catholic upbringing, education, and background, given his frequent mentions of http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=tim+russert+sister+lucille">Sister Lucille. Edited to provide that additional context.

[rwheeler31]

1. Jesuit priests are noted for teaching logic and debate.

[CorpGovActivist]

2. A Damn Fine Education, Too...

... and a bit of a swipe at Russert, methinks.

- Dave

[SeattleGirl]

15. I graduated from a Jesuit university, and I have to agree.

A damn fine education!

They want people to think for themselves, to make logical, educated arguments, and to not accept something just because some "authority" says it's so.

[CorpGovActivist]

16. Funny Guys, Too!

Once you get to know one, it quickly becomes apparent that there's humor there.

- Dave

[SeattleGirl]

18. Absolutely!

One of my profs (a Jesuit), who is now president of that university, cracked me up one day.

We'd gotten to be friends, and we were having coffee one day, and I asked him why he decided on the priesthood. Without skipping a beat, he said, "Because I couldn't get a date in high school."

:rofl:

[CorpGovActivist]

22. Some of the Most Pleasant Evenings I've Spent...

... have been spent bent over a chessboard, nursing a beverage, and cursing a Jesuit (figuratively, not literally, of course).

; )

- Dave

[progressoid]

31. Don't you find your statement rather contradictory?

You said "and to not accept something just because some "authority" says it's so."

Your statement strikes me as ironic considering the Roman Catholic Church's reliance on authority, Papal infallibility, etc. Indeed, the entire structure of the Church seems to be built on the idea of accepting the edicts of it's authorities.

My guess is that any Jesuit Priest that questions the authority of the Church a little too much, wouldn't be a Jesuit Priest for long.

[CorpGovActivist]

32. In My Experience with Jesuit Priests...

... I have found them to be extremely open to criticisms of the Church, and often among the most erudite and effective critics of the system from within the system.

- Dave

[progressoid]

33. Sure, up to a point.

They may question or criticize some aspect or tenet of the Church, but ultimately, they must have confidence and faith in the complete authority of the Church.
If not, they could just be Protestants.

Or worse. :)

[CorpGovActivist]

34. "Or worse." It's a Slippery Slope...

:toast:

; )

Some make it to the bottom of the ravine, and live to tell about it.

- Dave

[JerseygirlCT]

82. Yes. I have to agree

they're often the mavericks in a hierarchy getting ever more moribund. Which has been what's made them good educators.

[CorpGovActivist]

Sharp as Tacks, and They Play Excellent Games of Chess, to Boot

They always seem to know the best "hole in the wall" good eats, too.

Many I've spoken with are truly saddened by the current state of the institution.

- Dave

[JerseygirlCT]

91. My dad was educated by Jesuits, and never failed to

tell us about what a good education they provide!

[CorpGovActivist]

92. I'd Entrust My Kids to Their Schooling...

... in large part because it really does force one to think for oneself.

- Dave

[JVS]

85. Jesuits now aren't what they used to be

They used to be a holy terror!

Woe to the Czech protestant who ran into them in the wake of the 30 years war.

[CorpGovActivist]

86. Well, You Know What They Say...

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

- Dave

[JVS]

87. Well over in another thread someone is telling me jesuits were not inquisitors but victims

Now I know that the inquisition was most often run by Dominicans, but Jesuits participated in very similar things, and as perpetrators.

[CorpGovActivist]

88. That Would Be a Dominicanical Argument, Right?

; )

- Dave

[JVS]

89. I think the Domincan (or Dominicanian/Dominicanical argument) is...

This is new. It must be wrong! Dominicans are still sore over the promulgation of the Assumption by Pius XII in 1950

[CorpGovActivist]

90. When Python Speaks Ex Cathedra...

... I http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=monty+python+monks+pies+lesu+domine+dona+eis+requiem">kneel and obey.

- Dave

[JVS]

83. Especially considering that Ignatius Loyola's 13th rule

Thirteenth Rule. To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it, believing that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, His Bride, there is the same Spirit which governs and directs us for the salvation of our souls. Because by the same Spirit and our Lord Who gave the ten Commandments, our holy Mother the Church is directed and governed.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/loyola-spirex.html

[CorpGovActivist]

84. Maybe Hillary Is Communing with Him to Run Her Campaign?

Eleanor Roosevelt and Ignatius Loyola - war council from the beyond.

- Dave

[Bigmack]

44. Dangerous ideas.... logical argument and reason.

All it took was 4 years of a Jesuit High School and I learned religion is superstition. One year at a Jesuit University iced that cake!

[maddiejoan]

3. enjoy!

http://dailycon.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/jesuitical/

Very early, owing in part to English Protestant propagandists, the word “Jesuitical” came to characterize a form of argument designed less to seek the truth than to make a case, a form of argument that was aggressive and clever but perhaps not always sincere - indeed, one that was at times cunningly equivocal or downright deceitful. Aside from pure anti-Jesuit animus, this nuance probably arose from the work of some 17th-century Jesuit theologians who imperfectly employed a method known as “casuistry” in resolving questions of moral theology - an approach that gave the broadest possible leeway to individual behavior. This form of justification, which became known as “laxism,” may explain why Jesuit priests were the confessors of choice among Europe’s Catholic aristocracy.

[CorpGovActivist]

5. The Counter-Reformation Is a Favorite Period of History for Me...

... but I am more interested in its context and meaning on today's interview.

- Dave

[maddiejoan]

7. In context

I would imagine Senator Clinton meant an endless hashing over little details.

[CorpGovActivist]

23. Given Russert's Frequent Mention of His Jesuit Education...

... I thought it was an intentional barb.

Very shrewd move, two days before she faces Russert at the debates.

- Dave

[maddiejoan]

24. didn't know that about Russert's education

wonder if Russert took it as jab --or a compliment to his education then?

[CorpGovActivist]

25. View for Yourself...

... the link is in the OP.

- Dave

[Dogmudgeon]

4. Long-winded, not long

"Jesuitical" is like "sesquipedalian" or "recherche".

Parsing Obama's words in his absence is "Jesuitical". Asking him about his votes directly is not.

Hillary is getting slammed for a position that is not substantially different than Obama's; of course she's going to raise the point.

I don't hold support for the war against either of them. I kept up with the votes, and they were can't-win situations tailored to make the GOP look good at the expense of the Democratic Party. All the talk about backbone and principles is hot air; if you don't win, you don't govern.

--p!

[CorpGovActivist]

26. "if you don't win, you don't govern"

Very true.

- Dave

[bemildred]

6. That would depend on what the meaning of "is" is. nt

[CorpGovActivist]

8. Touche!

:rofl:

- Dave

[bemildred]

10. I thought an example was called for.

Dumbsfeldt was a superb source of jesuitical arguments too.

[CorpGovActivist]

21. And a Stunningly Jesuitical Example It Was, at That! n/t

[0007]

38. Jesuitical Argument = slow motion train wreck.......n/t

[CorpGovActivist]

42. I Think by Tuesday Night, She Regrets Saying It... n/t

[SharonAnn]

99. Bill Clinton graduated from Georgetown, a Jesuit university.

[CorpGovActivist]

100. LOL! Maybe It's a Deeper Freudian Slip on Her Part Than First Suspected!!!

:rofl:

- Dave

[silverweb]

9. Interesting choice of words.

_"Jesuitic"_. -- 2. One given to subtle _casuistry_.

[CorpGovActivist]

12. Good Hangover Cure, Too

; )

- Dave

[silverweb]

77. ?

Dumb or naïve... I don't get it. :shrug:

[CorpGovActivist]

79. Practicing Casuistry...

... sounds like the "perfect" cure for a hangover!

; )

"Leave me alone, I want to die. That's my thesis, and you'd be unethical to deny it"

(Overheard in a college dorm, circa 1994.)

- Dave

[silverweb]

93. Got it!

I missed the college dorm experience, so couldn't make the connection. :D

[CorpGovActivist]

94. College Not Required...

... for hangover-induced practice of the art.

; )

- Dave

[Rydz777]

11. My wife's reaction to the interview was that Hillary is a "clear

thinker." I was also impressed. Russert was playing checkers with his usual "gotchas" and Hillary was playing chess. She won.

[CorpGovActivist]

13. "... and we'll see you Tuesday night in Nevada."

I would bet my bottom dollar that Russert and his research staff go "Jesuitical" in the next two days, to hurl a brushback pitch at her with respect to a triangulation - er, answer - she gave today.

- Dave

[DaLittle Kitty]

28. Yep... And Just Wait fer Ole Pro John Edwards to UnMask The Phonies in what is now a debate

environment free of distractions and just the three of them... Should be a clinic! :kick: 'em Johnny!

[CorpGovActivist]

30. And We All Get to "Audit" His Seminar, with the Only Prereq Being...

... eyes, ears, open mind, and - optionally -

:popcorn:

- Dave

[durrrty libby]

14. I agree with your wife. And she is very intelligent.

[CorpGovActivist]

17. Yeah, It Was a Masterstroke to Take a Jab...

... at Catholic voters.

- Dave

[durrrty libby]

19. You are just a sad little insecure fellow. The exact type who

obsesses of Senator Clinton.Truly pathetic

[CorpGovActivist]

20. No, I'm a Reformed Hillary Clinton Supporter...

... who could no longer keep his blinders on.

- Dave

[leftchick]

27. good for you

welcome to reality! Scary as it is.

:toast:

[CorpGovActivist]

29. Facts Are Stubborn Things...

... and the enormous well of goodwill I had stored up for her was simply exhausted by repeated reference to facts.

:toast:

- Dave

[DeepBlueC]

35. I like that description

bang on.

[CorpGovActivist]

36. Too Bad She Only Sees a Single Plane of the Board...

... and Mark Penn might - MIGHT - have one square in his view.



- Dave

[IdesOfOctober]

37. Maybe she didn't know the mic was on?

She could appeal to Reagan Lovers by playing it off as an unknown open mic.

Ides

[CorpGovActivist]

60. Enjoy the Reagan MX Missile Mix

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOTbVDPnM5g

- Dave

[bridgit]

39. Oh please, it's akin to: The Talmudic Splitting of Hairs

[IdesOfOctober]

40. Is that like Tantric Tweezing of the Nosehairs?

:9

[bridgit]

41. i do have a *tantric pic* but it will get this thread locked...

:wow: :blush: :)

[IdesOfOctober]

43. Oh, the things you learn about your fellow DUers on here.

Do tell.



Ides

[bridgit]

45. well, alright, maybe just this once...enjoy!

[IdesOfOctober]

49. My eyes! My eyes!

It burns, it burns!

Now that you have sullied me, will you make an honest man out of me?

Ides

[bridgit]

55. "sullied", I love that line from Pirates of the Caribbean, Dead Man's Chest

I think it is, when Davey Jones shakes, well 'shakes' but he does so with his tentacles & goo Jack Sparrow's hand, but then Sparrow says, "Mr. Gibbs, I feel sullied and unusual." a great line imo :hi:

[IdesOfOctober]

57. I went as Cap'n Jack last Halloween.

"You're not a eunuch are you?"

"All by me onesies."



Ides

[bridgit]

61. a great film character, word was Depp went into the casting sessions...

with nealy all gold teeth, the studio guys were all, "Uh...we're not sure." Depp started pulling out the so-called gold till he got it down to where they were comfortable and the rest is film & popcorn history :hi:

"You want to know me?"

[IdesOfOctober]

62. "I definitely deserved that."

:rofl:

You're quick on the draw.

Ides

[bridgit]

64. then cheers it is...

:toast:

[IdesOfOctober]

65. "But how's your footwork?"

:toast:

Ides

[CorpGovActivist]

75. I Do Believe...

... you should quit while you're ahead. You just may be outmatched. She has you on the ropes.

:spray:

:popcorn:

- Dave

[IdesOfOctober]

59. You know about IMDB, right?

http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=pirates+of+the+car

The quotes for each movie are a study in hilarity.

I doff my hat to thee.

Ides

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

46. Ya Know, She Totally Kicked Ass This Morning. That Must Be Eating You Up Inside.

Just sayin...

[CorpGovActivist]

48. She Snarked from a Position of Strength, No Doubt about It...

... she was on a roll.

The "disciplined candidate" thing strikes again.

- Dave

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. Eatttttttttin Ya Up Inside. LOL

:rofl:

[CorpGovActivist]

53. You're Projecting...

... your issues onto a surface that doesn't reflect them.

- Dave

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

56. Eatttttttin Ya Up Inside, That Competent Performance From Her Is.

I can hear ya munchin on your TUMS all the way over here!

And for the record, your surface may not reflect, but it most certainly is transparent...

Nighty nite!

[CorpGovActivist]

58. Nitey Nite! n/t

[CorpGovActivist]

63. BTW, Thanks for the Jesuitical Argument!

:rofl:

:hug:

- Dave

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

68. LOL No Problem!

:)

[CorpGovActivist]

70. As a "Case in Point," This One May Have Been...

... a DUzy.

:rofl:

; )

- Dave

[scarletwoman]

47. Not an official definition, but I think of it as an argument that resorts to such absurd degrees of

minutia that only a full-throated and impassioned exclamation of "WTF?", and the immediate exit from the field of rhetorical combat will preserve one's sanity.

But, I'm not a Jesuit.

(Raised Roman Catholic -- but I moved on.)

sw

[CorpGovActivist]

50. Good Practical Working Definition!

But was it a regret-inducing comment, given Russert's background?

- Dave

[scarletwoman]

67. I didn't watch MTP this morning, so I am unable to answer your question. (nt)

[CorpGovActivist]

71. Don't Run for Office...

... that answer will *never* do if you're a candidate.

; )

- Dave

[scarletwoman]

73. Don't intend to. But if I did, I'd want to have Timmeh's balls for breakfast on national TV

for all to see. I have an extremely low tolerance for bullshit.

[CorpGovActivist]

74. But You Didn't Say "No," You Talked about "Intent" - ARE YOU RUNNING?

:rofl:

; )

- Dave

[scarletwoman]

76. I'll have to consult with my strategists and pollsters -- I'll get back to you. (nt)

[CorpGovActivist]

80. So You've Established an Exploratory Committee; Come on, That's NOT A NO!

:rofl:

(Maybe you *should* run, after all.)

- Dave

[scarletwoman]

95. You offer it to me freely. I cannot deny that my heart has greatly desired this.

In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the seas! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair...

;)
sw

[CorpGovActivist]

96. Aw, Come on, Galadriel: You KNOW That's Not a Sherman Statement!

:rofl:

- Dave

[scarletwoman]

101. Sherman will make his statement AFTER Mr. Peabody instructs him on where to set the WABAC Machine.

You are SO pushy!

[CorpGovActivist]

102. "I'm just doing my job, ma'am."

As for the WABAC Machine, savvy intellectual property proprietors talk to Archive.org to remove / block archiving.

- Dave

[EFerrari]

52. That's right. It's legalistic with one more syllable and a collar. n/t

/oops

[CorpGovActivist]

54. *puzzled look*

???

:freak:

- Dave

[EFerrari]

78. The term is just a more figurative way to mean "legalistic".

:)

[CorpGovActivist]

81. Oh, I Thought It Was Dirty

:spray:

Now I get it.

I was trying to figure out a suffix for legalistic that involved a "collar" - YIKES.

- Dave

[scarletwoman]

72. LOL! That works quite well. (nt)

[Radical Activist]

66. Its when you have to take 1/2 hour explaining your vote

because the simple truth is that you voted the wrong way. Surprisingly, it doesn't seem to work well with voters.

[CorpGovActivist]

69. Maybe She Can Revise and Expand Her Remarks in the Congressional Record...

... to make it clearer. My vote is for her to have the opportunity to do so all the way thru the end of her current Senate term.

- Dave

[spoony]

98. Only those voters who demand bumper sticker philosophies

Some of us can actually listen to an answer longer than ten words. Simple truth is an oxymoron.

[mmonk]

97. Maybe it has to do with consistent thinking.

For example, if being against the war is the correct position, then so would be voting against funding it. Even though I'm Catholic, I still think it's a stretch to compare this with a Jesuit school background. The explanation I gave you is the only thing I can think of of what he might have meant.