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Clinton? Obama? C H A N G E my ass. Or, some inconvenient T R U T H

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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:20 PM
Original message
Clinton? Obama? C H A N G E my ass. Or, some inconvenient T R U T H
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 12:04 AM by BeHereNow
Let's have another look at the MSM force fed candidates for our sEection, shall we?
Albright?
Holbrooke?
Keane?
Talbott?
Brzezinski
Lake?
Ross?

Do ANY of you numbnuts who think Clinton or Obama will avert the train to hell
we are currently on actually KNOW who these people are?
Sometimes DU makes me want to :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I'd say that the river of de'nial runs equally through the banks
of both the democratic and republican american idol political fan clubs.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/1/3/vote_for_change_at...

"And start with Clinton. Madeleine Albright, she was the main force behind the Iraq sanctions that killed more than 400,000 Iraqi civilians. General Wesley Clark, he was the one who ran the bombing of Serbia in the former Yugoslavia, came out and publicly said that he was going after civilian targets, like electrical plants, like the TV station there. Richard Holbrooke, in the Carter administration he was the one who oversaw the shipment of weapons to the Indonesian military as they were invadingillegally invading East Timor and killing a third of the population there, and he was the one who kept the UN Security Council from enforcing its resolution against that invasion. Strobe Talbott, he was the one who, during the Clinton administration, oversaw Russia policy, a backing of Yeltsin, which resulted in turning over the national wealth to the oligarchs and a drop in life expectancy in much of Russia of about fifteen yearsmassive, massive death. And you have various backers of the Iraq invasion and occupation and the recent escalation, people like General Jack Keane, Michael OHanlon and others. Thats just Clinton.
AMY GOODMAN: Barack Obama?
ALLAN NAIRN: Well, Obamas top adviser is Zbigniew Brzezinski. Brzezinski gave an interview to the French press a number of years ago where he boasted about the fact that it was he who created the whole Afghan jihadi movement, the movement that produced Osama bin Laden. And he was asked by the interviewer, Well, dont you think this might have had some bad consequences? And Brzezinski replied, Absolutely not. It was definitely worth it, because we were going after the Soviets. We were getting the Soviets. Another top Obama person
AMY GOODMAN: I think his comment actually was, Whats a few riled-up Muslims? And this, that whole idea of blowback, the idea of arming, financing, training the Mujahideen in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets, including Osama bin Laden, and then when theyre done with the Soviets, they set their sights, well, on the United States.
ALLAN NAIRN: Right. And later, during Bill Clintons administration, during the Bosnia killing, the US actually flew some of the Afghan Mujahideen, the early al-Qaeda peoplethe US actually arranged for them to be flown from there to Bosnia to fight on the Muslim/NATO side.
Another key Obama adviser, Anthony Lake, he was the main force behind the US invasion of Haiti in the mid-Clinton years during which they brought back Aristide essentially in political chains, pledged to support a World Bank/IMF overhaul of the economy, which resulted in an increase in malnutrition deaths among Haitians and set the stage for the current ongoing political disaster in Haiti.
Another Obama adviser, General Merrill McPeak, an Air Force man, who not long after the Dili massacre in East Timor in 91 that you and I survived, he wasI happened to see on Indonesian TV shortly after thatthere was General McPeak overseeing the delivery to Indonesia of US fighter planes.
Another key Obama adviser, Dennis Ross. Ross, for many years under both Clinton and Bush 2, a keyhe has advised Clinton and both Bushes. He oversaw US policy toward Israel/Palestine. He pushed the principle that the legal rights of the Palestinians, the rights recognized under international law, must be subordinated to the needs of the Israeli governmentin other words, their desires, their desires to expand to do whatever they want in the Occupied Territories. And Ross was one of the people who, interestingly, led the political assault on former Democratic President Jimmy Carter. Carter, no peacenikI mean, Carter is the one who bears ultimate responsibility for that Timor terror that Holbrooke was involved in. But Ross led an assault on him, because, regarding Palestine, Carter was so bold as to agree with Bishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa that what Israel was doing in the Occupied Territories was tantamount to apartheid. And so, Ross was one of those who fiercely attacked him."

For christsake people- don't you understand that these candidates are more puppets of the SAME people
who have dragging this country over the cliff for DECADES?

GOD DAMN.
Guess we are going to get the government we deserve.
With the help of democratic supporters who don't know SHIT about
history.
So be it.


BHN :rant:
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. I saw that last night, and became rather depressed ...
the warmongers win again.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. It IS SOOOOOOO depressing. These bastards are the most EVIL fucks on the earth.
My question is- with SO many intelligent people on DU HOW
can any one but this shit for ANOTHER FOUR or EIGHT fucking years?
This country is already crawling on bloody knees- and NOW we have
two more CFR/TC MSM candidates to "save" us?
Not EVEN!

FUCK people, do your research!
Understand WHO you are backing when you back these two
puppets of the powers that be-
you know, the powers who put BUSH in the WH.
YES, the VERY same.
BHN
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I'll bet certain candidates can't wait to carpet the Earth ..
with more cluster bombs and depleted uranium, in order to show how tough they are.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Their advisors sure have the track record on that particular method
of establishing complete corporate hegemony through military force.
Fuck, I'm going to go live in a cave now...
We are SO screwed.

BHN
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. Please don't go away.
Maybe each of us will have to take a break now and then; but, we must continue speaking up about the corporatocracy and the military-industrial complex. We must speak up for peace and justice.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. I'm heading out to Joshua Tree for a couple of days...
I need a break.

I just can't stand to watch another day
of my country dying.

People want more of the same shit?
Fine, I don't have to watch them eat it.
I can't watch for a while- it's just too
depressing to witness.

BHN
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #32
43. Enjoy Joshua Tree!
Hubby and I have a few friends that live out there - cool place. One can find a great place to meditate.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. I love it out there, and I need a drink of clear, cool water about now.
This round of election poisoned punch
has given me a severe case of emotional hangover.
Time to take a break from the bar.

BHN
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. Enjoy and rest (n/t)!
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
39. We have always been screwed.
That's what I sometimes forget when I get caught up in hope.

But it's always been about money and power, right from the first day people got together in a cave. And now, it's a fully-developed plutocratic oligarchy.

The only real hope we have is in the progressive evolution of the universe. And that takes its own sweet time.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
108. Got room in that cave?
:-(
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. I hope you're wearing your armored undergarments.
:popcorn:
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
138. Wow. Talk about a MUST READ! k&r!
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is why I am for Edwards, the man on a focused mission.
And it AIN'T to serve the overlords, I really don't think so.

His whole life has been an attempt to tear rich corporations a new asshole.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Who wrote the Iraq War Resolution?
:shrug:
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Man sees it differently now and I believe him. He really APOLOGIZED.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
46. AFTER he helped murder over a million innocent human beings
and AFTER he decided to run for president again.

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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
47. So do drunk drivers who kill people
doesn't bring the dead back or make the families all better

and the war rages on.....

:cry:
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. Edwards wrote the Iraq War Resolution (H.J Res. 114)?
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caligirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. I'm for Edwards, how is he ever going to climb from this? I don't
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 12:13 AM by caligirl
plan to abandon Edwards, i want him to keep going.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. You're missing the point.
Who wrote the Iraq War Resolution and who running voted for it?

What is Obama's stance on Iran?

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caligirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. I was responding second to the post above us both, not to yours
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 12:14 AM by caligirl
Bonobo at #3.
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gsplfnk Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
155. Obama's stance on Iran
AIPAC owns Obama's pledge to the security of Israel financially. Obama owes allegiance to the Knesset, to the cause of Zionism. This is not so alarming. Most US Representatives and Senators have been purchased by AIPAC in this way, including Senator Clinton (who owes Zionism slightly more allegiance) and Senator Edwards, who is slightly less owned by Israel.

Obama's stance on Iran? Like Clinton and Edwards, 'we try to negotiate, but nothing is "off the table"' with Iran.

Good, politically expedient Zionist-contolled puppy dogs.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
75. ...
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #75
151. I have a friend who doesn't have to work at
all, she chooses to work. Well, she has excellent politics. Just because Edwards is a very wealthy man, does not mean he can't be right on many things such as the right to organize and join a UNION!
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #151
178. He worked for it
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank You, BeHereNow!!!
:cry:

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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Pass the tissue will you?
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
When the democrats start looking and acting like
the good Germans, voting for evil because it
hides behind puppets who are complicit...
We should cry together.

That's it- I'm taking off to the desert for a few days.
I can't take anymore.

BHN
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
44. I think you have the right idea.
I ought to take a few days off myself. I can't go to the desert or anywhere else, because anti-welfare America thinks $637 a month in SSI is enough for a disabled person to live on, or simply doesn't give a damn if it isn't. Therefore, I don't have a car. However, one's own backyard can be a surprisingly refreshing place to visit, if one knows how to see it that way.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. I'm so sorry...$637 is NOT enough to live on for a week, let alone a month.
Do you have help?
Family or friends?

You have a friend in me, if you ever need one.

BHN :hug:
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:11 AM
Original message
I live on $500.00 a month
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
53. HELL!!! How??? How do you do that?
Do you live alone?
Please tell me you don't.

BHN :hug:
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #53
62. I have my son and we are
splitting the bills, ie. Rent, electric but I still pay my car insurance, phone and internet and food.
It isn't easy at all and if it wasn't for him still staying here right now, I'd be screwed. My sister
sends me a couple of hundred here and there. I'll be fine as soon as I'm approved for health care
and can get my dental surgery and then I'm going back to work. That should be by March. Don't fret.
I do have a savings account too but I'm using it.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #62
66. Thank goodness your son is with you.
That is a relief to know.
Believe it or not, I really do care
about so many people on DU.
I've gotten really close to so many
good people here- on and offline.
I found DU shortly after 911-
Been coming back ever since.
BHN
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. Thanks.
I care about you and many here as well. :hug:

And my country.... :(
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
58. I hear you.
All this talk of "American prosperity" and the like doesn't mean much to you and I, does it?
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. I don't have much access to financial help.
And in addition to that, I have to support another person.

It's very difficult. Money is a constant struggle and there's no end to bitterness and ill-feeling in the household because of it. But I do have some moral support from friends online, and it helps that I'm not a materialistic person at all. My desires are very modest and easily met. The vast majority of my money problems center around others in the household who want things I can't provide, and resent me deeply because of it.

Thanks for your encouragement. :)
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #56
65. I understand that.
My son hasn't paid a dime towards the light bill yet and when I finally demanded
the rent money (he was balking) he actually said; "Again?" :eyes: He's still young
and all but he does have $ for video games, fast food and ski trips. I'm hoping
he'll find his own place this year and I'll move to a one bd rm or a studio.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #65
70. OK, the active posters have had a chance to read what was here
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 02:04 AM by Naturyl
So because it was of a personal nature, I'm going to self-delete before the mean-spirited people monitoring this board decide to put it up on one of their hate sites for mockery purposes.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #70
74. Naturyl & Breeze....I understand.
I never know what my income will be as I am a self-employed artist.Its usually enough to cover the basics, but I never can count on anything for sure til I have that check in my hand.It was pretty rough after bankruptcy some years back and I will NEVER forget that feeling. I have no health insurance, so I just can't get sick. Thank heavens my two grown kids share the house & rent. We squeak by and are doing ok as long as the boat doesn't rock.


I wish there was something I could do to help...I can listen and certainly understand the daily financial struggle.It just wears you down.No one should have to worry about keeping a roof over their head and keeping food in their belly.

I know this doesn't help much buts all I can offer for now :hug:

DR
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #74
162. I empathize as well...
and give everyone hugs :grouphug:

Like you, Desertrose, I'm self-employed, bankruptcy after divorce several years ago, no insurance, etc., etc. Single mom of 14 y/o to boot (but fortunately she has health and dental coverage...whew!).

With the way things are now, and the direction it's going, it is truly frightening for many of us. MOST of us.

My best thoughts go out to everyone...even non-DU'ers who may be reading and going through a rough time.
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terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well at least we are getting less powerful in the world arena.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thanks for this thread. I'm burned out from doing this necessary task. K&R. nt
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. You've done more than your share dear Arendt.
Many of us have.
To what end?

To watch people on DU shout for joy as more
evil comes to power?

BHN :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I'm feeling down about the whole thing also.
I've decided, though, that, no matter who gets in, I will be protesting the continuing sale and distribution of cluster bombs and weapons containing depleted uranium. I will continue protest illegal and unnecessary preemptive and preventative wars.

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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I'm beyond depressed... I am sick to death of it all.
I guess the ultimate blow to any flame of hope
that smoldered in my heart was that MAYBE, just MAYBE
Americans were sick enough of watching and voting for
their own demise that they would get off their asses and
demand a real change. But no, they have accepted
yet another 4, years and perhaps the the rest of our lives.
of the SAME "behind the scenes" powers that be.
People buy into the Kabuki theatre of the candidates
but never look to see who the DIRECTOR and PRODUCERS
of the farce are.
BHN


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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. I agree.
I'm determined to keep protesting loudly, however; we hold a peace vigil every Friday at the local church's 'community house.' We bring peace-related issues into it (and everything can be brought in really).
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #17
85. They are deceived by the ILLUSION of change
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 03:02 AM by Lydia Leftcoast
The candidates' advisers are precisely the people who brought us to this mess.

The candidates who do not listen to these advisers are the ones ignored by the MSM. A person whose only information comes from the MSM could be forgiven for thinking that Clinton and Obama are the only two Democratic candidates.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #85
97. But can they be forgiven for listening only the MSM?
That's a tougher question, eh?
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #97
104. I Listened To NPR Radio For 40 Minutes Tonight I Almost Tossed My Radio In The Toilet
They talked about Obama, Hillary, McCain, Rommney, fucking hell even Huckabee...in all that time they did not mention Edwards....not ONCE.....Ron fucking Paul got a few mentions.....Edwards.....NOTHING. It is a disgrace. They totally shunned him.....on NPR....what a god damn joke.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #104
111. And to find information that doesn't come from either the commercial media
or NPR/PBS takes a lot more research than most Americans are willing to do

They don't like to strain themselves to learn something outside their required coursework even when they're in college, for heaven's sake.

There's also a Middle American cultural bias against intellectual endeavor and non-conformity. When I was teaching, I actually had students declare that no one REALLY enjoyed foreign films or classical music or non-required reading, and that people who claimed to enjoy them were just snobs trying to impress other people.

America may be getting the candidates and the media that it deserves.
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Sam Ervin jret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #111
124. "is this going to be on the test?", "do we have to know this?"
maybe it will be on the test, no you don't HAVE to know it, but the student next to you might and that would be good for him/her bad for you. The same mentality exists in the adults as it does in the students. When I was teaching it used to drive me NUTS! When I'm voting it makes me want to cry.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #97
114. no, there is no human capacity for forgiveness at that level.
to listen 'only to the MSM' means you no longer listen to the words of the past or even of the others around you. that means no reading, no listening to the historical oral traditions, no attention given to elders, no pity to the suffering around them, no commiseration to their equals around them, no understanding to the young and less powerful, etc. such level of single minded devotion to entertainment and propaganda over the truth of your very own eyes and ears from the rest of the world around you is an unforgivable form of escapism, pride, and greed. it is a life devoid of empathy, clutching to projections to maintain their world of illusions. it is sociopathy clear and simple.

no, there is no such human forgiveness available to such people. but all things are possible through the divine...
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. feeling depressed and sick here too.
can't speak.
thanks for saying so well what I'm thinking, BHN.

:(
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I'm numb- absolutely numb.
We have lost the country.
Period.

BHN
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
52. This world is like that by nature.
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 01:12 AM by Naturyl
I've read a lot of Eastern philosophy. Perhaps you're familiar with that sort of thing, also. In the Buddhist/Taoist view, this world is characterized by suffering and misfortune, which includes evil coming to power and similar disappointments. This is why one is well-advised to spend some time letting go of their attachment to the things of this world and developing their insight. This message is also found in Jesus and many others, although certainly not in most forms of American Christianity.

Of course, it's much easier said than done. Despite thinking this way for years, I still get depressed and discouraged with the way things are going. A "Zen" approach has helped somewhat, but nothing changes basic human nature.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #52
57. I'd like to meet you Naturyl- that is a beautiful post.
I think the depression comes from watching our fellow
beings ASSIST evil coming to power.

PM me with your address- I am going to
mail some of the desert to you since
you can't come with us.

I'll send the desert to you.
What part of the country are you in?

BHN
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Cronopio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #52
142. "... but nothing changes basic human nature."
If human nature couldn't change, there would be no enlightenment. But for most sentient beings, it takes eons. It took eons of auspicious rebirths and right action for the Buddha before he got it right.

Beyond that one point, I totally agree with your post. It is incredibly frustrating to watch the political merry-go-round spin again when you can see better options. Often a compassionate detachment is necessary - Milarepa had to find his path of enlightenment in a cave. I think that "if you can keep your head while the rest of the world is losing theirs", you're doing enough.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
16. For the big 2, "change" is just a buzzword for "status quo"
It's Orwellian, like everything else these people do.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Exactly, which is why I give up.
SO many DUers have tried like hell to
illuminate the FACTS for the democrats
who have fallen for the "show."
To what end?
To what end?

BHN
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #19
61. Well, there's never really much chance of "winning"
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 01:35 AM by Naturyl
To break out the Zen perspective again, the trick is to do the work without being attached to the results.

Most people are never going to wake up. That's just the nature of the game, and those in power know it. Only a few will ever stumble across the truth, and usually when they least expect to. But even so, there is a need for people like us to keep advocating for truth and progress. We aren't going to "win" in the worldly sense - meaning we are never going to get through to the majority. But it is the few who do finally "get it" who make the effort worthwhile.

Having said that, I'm certainly not preaching from a high horse here. I know very well how discouraging and depressing this work can get, and I struggle with it frequently. I guess that's how we know it's really worth something. As JFK wisely pointed out, "we do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard."
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. It's a bit like being one of the few sober people partying inside a burning house.
Edited on Tue Jan-08-08 11:44 PM by TahitiNut
The "American Idol" "People Magazine" pop-star kind of advocacy - almost totally bereft of principle and firm democratic values - inundates this forum. Some of the most simplistic, anal crap I've seen. We applaud LIARS and FRAUDS while sneering at the rare honest politicians with the gonads to stand up and be counted.

Well... I said it before and I'll say it again. Conditions in this country are going to get LOTS worse before they get better. The crew is drunk at the bar while the Titanic sinks. We're getting the kind of government we deserve as a nation. Until we're bleeding in the streets and bringing justice to war criminals and torturers, we're nothing but a nation of cowards and outlaws.

We treat the "political process" like Vick's friends treat dog-fighting ... with even less class.

Our children and grandchildren should piss on our graves ... and spit after mentioning our names.

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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Well said.... You have a way with words that I admire.
Thanks.

:cry:
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. PERFECT analogy...
I suggest we turn over our voting records to
the generations (if there are any who survive)
to come.
That way they can know which of our graves to
concentrate on.
The rest of us should leave them letters
swearing that we TRIED to tell the others.

BHN
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
82. Ah this old chestnut sprang to mind:
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
117. Thank You...
....this is the sad truth. :evilfrown:
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
159. I Will Add My Name to What You Just Posted... As A Long Time Activist
I have come to realize that the America I live in NOW is nothing like the Democracy I once believed in! A throw away society full of "material" needs! Go to any Garage sale on a week-end and what someone bought for $250.00 will be set on a table on sale for $10.00!

It says volumes to me about what has happened to this country! Can't wait for the "hype" of the day, the "new" toy to play with... and I'm not talking about children here! I'm talking about GROWN-UPS who can't see what is right in front of their noses. The APATHY is sickening, and I see more and more that American people are too lazy to research facts, but WILL listen to who their next door neighbor when they tell him "they" will vote for so and so, and therefore they should do it too!

I've tried for years and years, this is my last time out if it goes as it seems right now! I can't "play" this game anymore, because it's NEVER been a "game" to me!


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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-08-08 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
26. Who are those people?
Don't trouble my beautiful mind.

Just kidding.

K&R

But it is not true that we get the government we deserve. Too many children fall under that umbrella and that let's too many corrupt fuckers who have grabbed power off the hook.

The part about not knowing history is all too true and that's forgiveable but getting behind a candidate without that knowledge is not.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
28. "...American Idol political fan clubs" is exactly right.

It makes me sick to see so many "enlightened" people, "progressives" fall for the same bullshit spewed by candidates and media time and again. There is a reason that Obama uses the word "change" in his speech 37 times. It sticks in people's minds. They can't see past the image of the man. And Hillary? We don't even need to go there, after the democratic leadership pulled out all the stops and called in all of their favors to put a stop to the Obama juggernaut in N.H. But so many people become emotionally attatched to a candidate, ignoring huge flaws, such as voting for war resolutions, sponsoring war resolutions, voting for Patriot Acts, not once, but twice, and keeping mum on impeachment, in order to advance their blind ambition. Those actions matter. They matter a lot when assessing a candidate's merit to become our next commander-in-chief. Talk is cheap, and actions always trump words. A lot of people talk pretty, but it is usually just a lot of gas escaping from always open pie holes. THEN, as you mention, all one has to do is look around and see what assholes are advising these candidates and coordinating their campaigns. It's almost always the usual gang of suspects.

And if it is this way on the progressive side, it's absolutely no wonder that the rest of the country is so clueless. People, like my sister, who is a very good person, and has always voted democratic, but hasn't a clue. Try as I may to enlighten her, she refuses to listen because the truth is just too damned depressing, and it would upset her whole world. The majority of Americans fall into that category.

That is exactly why a candidate like Dennis Kucinich never has a snowball's chance. An honest man cannot win in today's political climate. They don't get the political backing, the slick organization or the donations to make a real race of it.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. You are on FIRE tonight Joe.
You just nailed it.
And how.

"And if it is this way on the progressive side, it's absolutely no wonder that the rest of the country is so clueless."

THAT is the truth that makes me wake up screaming these days.
Honestly, I am scared to death about what the future holds at this point.
The coin has officially surrendered all pretense of "two-sides" at this
point and yes, even "progressives" have failed to notice, or care.
They are too busy shaking their pom-poms for the puppets
of the "usual suspects" as you so aptly describe them.

BHN
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. It is I, who needs to take my hat off to you. You're the one who said
a mouthful, and every bit of it needed to be said, EXACTLY as you put it to us.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Wanna bet I make some ignore lists for having said it?
Seems some democrats want to remain blissfully
ignorant; like their bushbot counterparts.

"Rah-Rah!!! I'm going to vote against my own best interest!
But I'M SO different from those republicans who vote for BUSH!"

Like I said- I give up.

Let's hear from them AFTER the elections when NOTHING fucking changes at all.
Let's hear what they have to say when it get WORSE, not better.

BHN
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #38
48. That would be a fool's bet, on my part, my friend.
I know what you mean. Sometimes I wonder why the administrators let me hang around. And sometimes I wonder why I hang around. And, just to cover all bases, I'm sure there are more than a few members who wish I wasn't around.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #48
55. Well I'm GLAD you're here.
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 01:21 AM by BeHereNow
You and certain other DUers help keep me sane.
That is why I come here.
To meet up with folks like you.
It keeps me head from exploding to know
I am not the only one who knows what
time it is.

BHN :hug:
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #38
86. History shouldn't repeat itself so soon
Let's hear from them AFTER the elections when NOTHING fucking changes at all.
Let's hear what they have to say when it get WORSE, not better.


We were already disappointed after the 2006 Congressional elections, and so many people still have their blinders on.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. What's that saying, Americans have the attention spans of a flea?
And as Gore Vidal put it-
We should be called the United States of Amnesia.
The very people who brought us the shit storm of the
last 3 decades stand poised to bring us some more-
Trouble is, no body remembers who these fucks are
or what they have been responsible for.

BHN
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #87
137. United States of Amnesia
Indeed. It is shocking to me so many, especially here, do not fucking remember these war criminals and their atrocities.

:argh:
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. Joe?
:yourock:

:cry:
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. No.


:yourock:

:toast:
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #28
67. Ding ding ding
You nailed it right here:

"People, like my sister, who is a very good person, and has always voted democratic, but hasn't a clue. Try as I may to enlighten her, she refuses to listen because the truth is just too damned depressing, and it would upset her whole world. The majority of Americans fall into that category."

That's the crux of the whole problem. The truth is depressing, and people don't like to feel depressed. One of the wisest and most profound statements ever made is "ignorance is bliss." It can take a long time to understand the true meaning of that statement, but when you do finally get it, a great deal becomes clear. Suddenly you begin to understand why people believe all sorts of false things, and why they fall for the same tricks over and over.
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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
185. Good points, it is the same gang behind the campaigns, isn't it. Impt story. eom
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LiberalMandrake Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
33. the candidate playing the role of who is supposed to lose: Dean (vs. Kerry), Kerry (vs. Bush), Obama
the candidate playing the role of who is supposed to lose: Dean (vs. Kerry), Kerry (vs. Bush), Obama (vs. Clinton)
http://end-times-computers.blogspot.com/2007/05/ronpaul...
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Welcome to DU, and yep same pig, different lipstick.
Where have we seen THIS shit before?
The DEPRESSING aspect is how many people,
EVEN DUers, think the pig is now a silk purse.
We are FUCKED.

BHN :banghead:
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LiberalMandrake Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #34
106. Thank you. I was aready at DU for Bush bv. Kerry.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
37. OMG! A thread where people actually "get it". Thank you. n/t
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. There's a few of us left on DU.
And hopefully a few new ones coming.
I need a rest.
I'm sick and tired of people whose to remain
IGNORANT.
BHN
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. You aint gonna see the folks on this thread jumping off the cliff with the lemmings
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 01:27 AM by BeHereNow
That's for SURE.
WE are going to continue fighting for our country by
shouting the truth as loud as we can.
BHN
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kas125 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #37
71. Wow, that's exactly what I was gonna say
This place has really been depressing lately and I'm glad I read this thread tonight.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. Welcome to DU and yes, we are the realists, a rather depressing lot.
Sometimes I wish I didn't know certain things.
Maybe then I could sleep at night.
Always free free to join our reality based threads-
we assure you the truth.
As horrific as it is.

Better than the steady diet of continued MSM though.
Much more likely to help you survive what's coming too.

BHN
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. That's the trouble with thinking
Thinking for oneself is a VERY dangerous business, which is a big part of why most people don't do it. The main danger in thinking independently is that some thoughts can't be un-thought. Once you realize certain things, you can't un-realize them - and that means you have to deal with the consequences of those realizations, which aren't always pleasant.

Although I feel that those who refuse to think for themselves are at the root of almost all our problems, I know better than to blame them too harshly. They instinctively realize that independent thinking is dangerous and difficult. If a person isn't careful, it can ruin their life.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. Which is exactly why I am taking a break...
What you say is so very true.
You can't undo thinking.
sometimes I just need to STOP.

It's making me soul sick.

BHN
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. I've been there. Multiple times.
And a break is very likely just what you need. Enjoy, and as Chuang Tzu advises, "rest in the infinite." :)
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #78
186. I try to schedule breaks regularly.
It's exhausting being an progressive activist.

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kas125 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #72
118. Thanks for the welcome, BHN. And I know what you mean -
I've said the same thing - I wish I didn't know things. But it's too late for that, we do know. I'm very glad to know other people here who are like me because many people in my life think I'm nuts these days.
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Lugnut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
49. I just don't get it.
A bunch of retreads won't fix squat. K&R
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. Precisely. But hey, look at that shiny package!
They just keep slopping paint on it and people keep
thing it's a different set of tires.
Boy, aren't they in for a surprise when the
entire country has a major blow out.
And that time is coming. Sooner than they think.
AND once again!
They VOTED for it...
BHN

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smokey nj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #49
132. Kick!!
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
59. totally agree
that's why I have been heartsick about this race from its way too early start.

And sadly a McCain v Clinton matchup in the GE means defeat for Dems and even more fucking war.

Sheesh

K&R your post :hi:
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. Makes ya wanna crawl under a rock, doesn't it?
Especially when you realize there are people
in the democratic party who will vote for it.

I don't think they are bad people, they are just
new to politics.
Some of us have been watching the fucks behind
Clinton, Obama and the thugs for a VERY long time.
WE know exactly who they are and what they
have planned for the future.
OUR future.

Time to find a cave I guess.

BHN
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alllyingwhores Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #59
130. I think you're missing the point...
Either way means more corporate backed war--regardless of whether Clinton or McCain (or Obama) is selected in the GE.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
63. Good rant.
:applause:
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
64. Hey you!** Of course you are absolutely right.
But darlin, what choice to we have but to make a choice at this point.

I'm going with the woman of the group.

Hope you are well and Happy New Year*********

p.s. veggie tacos soon!!
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #64
69. HAH-HAH...Just copied your number onto my desk list today!!!
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 01:47 AM by BeHereNow
Part of my New Year resolution is to organize the "stacks."
You know, the ones that pile up on your desk and other places?
I just compiled a bunch of phone numbers to one sheet, and yours is on it.
Yes, it is time for a DU woman to woman veggie taco lunch.
As you can see...I need a shot of tequila sooner than later...
The kid and I are heading to Joshua Tree tomorrow or Thursday.
Let's get together next week?

Haven't seen Cui Bono lately, you?
Kestral want to join us too.
I'll try to reach NSMA.

BHN :hug:
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #69
165. Lets do it then ***
Let's try and touch base with everyone for the new year and for some peace talk and New Year's gathering!!

xoxo

shance :)
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
77. Excellent post as always, BHN
Thing is once you look behind the magic curtain and see the mighty OZ, you realize its all the same thinking-just different faces.

"Guess we are going to get the government we deserve.
With the help of democratic supporters who don't know SHIT about
history."


Too bad we all gave to go along for the same ride...


DR
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. Hey Desertrose...
:hug: :loveya: :hug: :pals:
BHN
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MagickMuffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
79. BHN, great post with valuable information
Are you going to sit out the (S)election then??

I understand your concern and frustration in people not wanting to hear or learn about the people surrounding their candidates. It is never an easy task when people are too caught up in the frenzy of an election. As an electorate we should try and inform ourselves with as much knowledge as we can about ALL our candidates. It should help with how they should cast their votes. You would think they would WANT to know everything about the candidates that want their vote. A vote should always have to be earned.

One of the reasons I have reservations about Hillary is her HUSBAND.

I do not like Bill Clinton. I do not like James Carvile, and I don't like Mark Penn.

I do not trust Bill, James, or Mark.

Why hasn't Hillary surrounded herself with women? Albright excluded of course.

The Military Industrial Complex will always have a place setting on the table. We the people are lucky to get to pretend to be a part of the democratic process.

Unfortunately, I am one of those people. I will have to support whoever the democrat nominee is. I have no choice in the matter really. I do not want the republicons to "win" the WH again. I at least want a democrat to be able to appoint some good candidates to the USSC.

Maybe just maybe (crossing fingers) if the democrats win back control of the WH and congress, we can clean up some of the mess that has been piling up for decades.


Have a relaxing time in the desert. :hi:and I hope you bookmarked your thread before you headed out.





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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. Albright is a tool of the ptb.
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 02:34 AM by BeHereNow
I hope she and the rest of them burn in hell.

"Madeleine Albright, she was the main force behind the Iraq
sanctions that killed more than 400,000 Iraqi civilians."
Most of them children.
When asked later about it, she glibly
piped that she thought the price was "acceptable."
She is a monster.

And thanks for good wishes for my trip.
As you can tell, I need it.

BHN
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Dark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
83. Ugh. I hate these "They're as bad as dubya' people. You actually believe that Gore would have fucked
up this bad? That Obama, Edwards or, hell, Hillary, would have fucked up this bad?

You'd have to be nuts to believe that.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. Well then, go bury your head in the sand and put this thread on ignore!
Problem solved!
Just keep pretending that the same CFR, TC and
global bankers aren't running the show!
You'll be fine.

BHN
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #83
88. No, they would have been kinder, gentler fuck-ups,
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 03:15 AM by Lydia Leftcoast
but fuck-ups nonetheless.

This country won't get back on track until it challenges the power of the military-industrial complex and the fat cat corporatists, who believe that "maximizing dividends for the shareholders" justifies any evil.

The only candidates who advocate a country that actually lives up to its ideals are marginalized in the mass media (working on the Kucinich campaign in '04 was an extremely disillusioning bit of experiential education in how the American political system really operates) and ridiculed by the "practical" and "moderate" types on DU.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. Yep, exactly. (n/t)
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #83
109. What reasonable logic.
"All I have to do is believe that anything that I find to be way outside my comfort zone to be unthinkable and the product of lunacy. Only things that do not scare me are allowed to be real."

It doesn't matter what records people have, what they have done, what can be proven, what they have said, etc., etc., etc.

All you have to do is think happy thoughts and people are exactly as you think them to be.

I am beginning to think the Germans in the 1930's were more rational.

American's Rose-Tinted Reason And Logic makes their Superior Indifference almost seem objective.
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Cronopio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #83
143. "At least he/she's not as bad as Dubya" isn't good enough by a long shot.
We may have had some room to meander about on this issue in 2000, when the economy wasn't tanking and the deficit wasn't sky high, but not now.

This country needs a true populist President and fast, or it's all downhill for America from here.

Just read The Audacity of Hope and look at who is paying Obama's campaign to find out how he would govern as President. You don't have to guess. He's straight DLC with a black smiley face. He's a good orator - a black Democratic Reagan, but that's just not good enough anymore.

Just listen to Clinton's speeches. She's not even making a secret out of the fact that she *will* continue the Iraq War. Hillary supporters who are against the Iraq War (like Bartcop) make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I expected Edwards to be slighted by the media, but I really figured that people who intend to vote Democrat would also be willing to do their homework. Clearly they aren't. If people did their own homework on the candidates, the pollsters and the media wouldn't have a chance.

It's still early in the race, and people here should remember that *it's supposed to be a race until the Convention*. Trying to shut down the race early will no good for the Democratic ticket or the country. You'd think people would have learned this after Election 2004.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 03:38 AM
Response to Original message
90. Overthrowing the military industrial complex in one election isn't realistic
In fact I don't think it's going to be solved by an election at all. The only way it will end is when the people get fed up with it and demand its end. We're unfortunately not at that point yet and perhaps not even close.

My hope is that Obama might bring some new voters into the process who will force politicians to take some baby steps in the right direction. With Clinton I know that won't happen. I don't believe Obama is the savior or that he will deliver anything dramatically different. But I am hopeful that he can do some good in certain areas.

And if Clinton is the nominee I'll still work for her. Stem cell research, reproductive rights, discrimination laws, and all of the other areas that she differs with the Republicans do have great effects on peoples' lives.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. Yes, you're right, of course.
I'm rather discouraged tonight. I get this way sometimes. But tomorrow is a new day, and it's likely I'll be feeling more positive about working toward those "baby steps" you mentioned. I know we can't expect anything significant all at once, or even anytime soon. Progress is slow, incremental, and full of reversals and missteps. Many of us want major change now, because we know that people are hurting. But I know the universe evolves on its own timetable, and sometimes we have to settle for simply doing the best we can.

Thanks for the reminder. :)
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. Honestly for those that are focused on bigger changes...
I'd suggest that perhaps your focus would better be directed on activism instead of electoral politics. It's true that in the grand scheme of things we have two corporate parties, one is pro life the other is pro choice. My friend who is pretty left wing and has worked for Democrats is pretty much through with it because they are too corporate friendly. He's going to dedicate himself to activism instead and frankly I think that's great. People should put their energy into what they want to do.

Personally I like electoral politics and while I would love to get rid of the military industrial complex I think that my energies are best spent working to make sure we have a competent President who doesn't think that the world is 6000 years old.

Obama ain't Jesus and he can't work miracles and it annoys me that people claim all of his supporters think he can. Despite that, though, I do have hope that if elected he might surprise me just a little bit.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. She represents a brief respite between Bushie Vampire Bites
and those bites are getting bigger with each go-round.

That, ultimately is the problem, is that the entire System of Checksa and Balances is tottering on the edge of irrelevance in the face of the Unitary Executive, or by it'r original name, Fuhrerprinzip.

Our media is a pathetic joke...Soviet Pravda with hot blondes and celebrity news.

Our voting system has been privatized and is inaccesioble tothe public nro to our representatives. It is non-transparent and easily riggable. No one seems to care.

There's more, but I've already depressed myself and you too, mostlikely.

But like an alcocholic, the longer we ignore reality or try to sugarcoat it, the harder our fall is going to be.

Ignore it long enough, and We the Alcoholic die of liver failure.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. I'm not ignoring it, I've just accepted that it's beyond the control of electoral politics
As I said in the post above, if you really want to save the world, electoral politics isn't the place to do it. Electoral politics is 90% of the time choosing the lesser evil. Once in a blue moon you get a guy like in my avatar and that can make it seem all worthwhile.

I don't presume that Obama is that once in a blue moon candidate, but there's a chance that he's untainted enough that maybe he could be. I know for a fact that Hillary is not.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. We can all agree on Wellstone.
What a guy he was. Pragmatic and realistic, but also principled and idealistic as hell at the same time. The best of both worlds. Like you said, that doesn't come along often, and that's what makes it so refreshing.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #94
107. I didn't mean to say that you personally were ignoring it, but We the Imperial Subjects of Amerika
are ignoring it, 97-99.5% of us, and with disastrous consequences that grow worse each year and doubly so with each Bushie Vampire bite.

Nothing personal. There is always hope, of that it is true.

Peace.
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #94
128. You have got to be kidding
Obama has been into politics since his 20's, he majored in poly sci in Columbia. He has groomed himself to get to this position. He's got big money behind him. He basically has a preacher's feel good message. And I ain't buying it. He is as ambitious as Clinton is. It has been made abundantly clear that the insiders can't be trusted.

zalinda
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #90
96. hope...
I know everyone's down on everything on this thread. I don't blame y'all. But what Obama keeps talking about is "hope".
In the end, that may well be all it is. Just hope. Maybe misguided, maybe without a chance... but hope.

What the hell though?... he sounds like he's being genuine, and consistent. He may be partially in bed with interests that would like to screw the population of the country... but there are few interests in this country that don't sound like they'd like to screw the population.
I've heard of reservations from Gay rights activists about some of the people he's been around, and now some of the foreign policy people he has around him. He's not them... but who knows what kind of shite they might convince him to fall into... Clinton on the other hand has "experience" with this sort of thing... and seems to have used that experience to jump into bed with these sorts of interests to greater financial gain.

Maybe they all suck. Hell, they've all sucked as long as I've been paying attention.

Feeling hopeless?

Get over it?

Hell, do whatever you want. I'm just suggesting that maybe this once there might be someone in the race with a chance to win who's outsider enough, and brazen enough, that he might actually try to shake some things up. Maybe he'll be killed for it, like an honorary Kennedy. Maybe he'll chickenshit out... Maybe he won't.
I think there might be something real in Obama. I also think there might be something real in Edwards. Clinton's been shaping her voting record, and everything else, for the last couple of years so as not to offend the "moderates" around the country... which in Mainstream Speak means the less-radical right wingers.
She's likely to be competent though. And all of the above will at least be a force of minute alteration, at least, of national politics away from the richest people in the country's interests.

You want to doom and gloom, so be it.
Personally, I live so far out on the margins of "society" that the powers that be matter little to me.
Try driving a cab in the #4 least safe city in the country, 12 hours a day, with no guaranteed income, no benefits, no health insurance, and no retirement plan at all... liable to be killed by your next customer, and doing it all in a vehicle that's patently unsafe.

Hell, don't matter to me who's in the Big House, not really.

But I guess this thread is about hopelessness... so I'll just leave you all to enjoy the Zen beauty of it. After all, once you've learned to suffer enough to truly enjoy it, then even that gets taken away from you... and you achieve Nirvana.
Weee... cab driving as the way to enlightenment. Why do you think so many Hindu's drive? (Most of Buddhism having been co-opted, via the Upanishads {the usual transliteration, I believe}, into the esoteric sphere of Hinduism...)

Who needs the desert, when there are so many concrete jungles in which to meditate?
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. Hehe...interesting post. Thanks. (n/t)
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #90
112. No, but would it be too much to ask to have candidates TALK about it
and the other REAL problems that this country is facing?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 05:20 AM
Response to Original message
99. k&r
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
100. Meet the new Boss; same as the old Boss......
Can we please NOT get fooled again????
:puke:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
101. Thank you BHN for this thread & for staying on DU to educate those who don't have a clue.
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 06:53 AM by TheGoldenRule
It just boggles my mind that some are STILL ignorant to the truth after 7 long years of lies, decent, treachery, treason, and crimes against humanity.

Why aren't people connecting the dots and looking under the surface?!

How can anyone stay on DU for any length of time and not uncover the truth about what's really going on?!

How can people not know that we are being force feed candidates that are no different than who is in office right now?!


I've seen this ignorance in thread after thread and I try to shed some light, but it's exhausting and depressing fighting those who are so blind to the truth or who are here for the sole purpose of spreading disinfo. :argh:



So BHN, seeing your thread is like a ray of sunshine for me. I don't feel so alone. Thank you for not giving up. :grouphug:
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #101
120. Yeah, and I second that!
Its like we get new cheering sections every so often who have no clue what has really been happening these last 7+ years.

I don't get how anyone who posts here for even a short time doesn't see whats happening....

and I agree...its tiring fighting the battle everyday. Most likely exactly what TPTB count on.

Nice to find kindred spirits still here....guess we can't really give up, can we?

:grouphug:
DR
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
102. Bill Hicks' quote still rings true
"I'll show you politics in America. Here it is, right here. 'I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs.' 'I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking.' 'Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding out both puppets!'"

:evilfrown:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
103. I understand.
Too many don't want to understand. :(
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CGowen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
105. Brzezinski endorsed Obama


Brzezinski Endorses Obama; Calls Hillary Clinton's Foreign Policy "Very Conventional"

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/002294.php
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Indie Girl Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #105
133. Not good
Barak Obamas principal foreign policy adviser, according to Nairn, is Zbigniew Brzezinski, the worst warmonger on the Democratic side of the past third century. He was calling for a new Pearl Harbor before the Project for a New American Century, and in his 1998 book, The Grand Chessboard, he argued that as the sole superpower it was our destiny to control the oil of the Caspian basin, which, by the way, is the real reason for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the threats to Iran. The U.S. imperialist clique imagines they can dominate south Asia and take the oil of the Caspian basin, and to fulfill this mistaken, doomed strategy, they have our young men and women in indefensible positions in the remote desert crags and canyons of Afghanistan, with the goal of building and protecting an oil pipeline to transport Caspian oil through Pakistan to the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean.

Not only are these people evil, they are idiots. The actual lesson of the Great Game, and this used to be accepted as fact, is that no matter how big or powerful, no outside power can dominate the areas of the big mountains of south Asia. The geography is just too difficult. Outsiders are universally despised, and will always be driven out in the end. It happened to the Brits and the Russians and it will happen to the U.S. imperialists.

But the military contractors and C.I.A. connected heroin dealers are making billions off the blood of our children and the blood of the Afghans and Iraqis, so more billions are appropriated and thousands upon thousands continue to die.

There are roughly 300 million people living in the area the Imperialists are foolishly trying to dominate. The Chinese are next door, and have already built a pipeline to tap Caspian oil. The Russians have a pipeline.

Cheney and the boys might as well forget about it. They have already lost.

And if Obama is listening to Zbigniew Brzezinski, he will stupidly lead us down the same disastrous path we are blundering along already.

Credit: common dreams

I think if people did their research Edwards would be ahead by a landslide. Shame
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #133
158. Welcome to (Here), Indie.
Now That's the real thing you posted Here that sums it up clear, and true. Thank you.

They have already lost, but in doing so, they've won (no, stolen) material comfort for a (little, or a longer - time will tell -) period in their own selfish lives (except for perhaps their yearly round of $1-each "charity" donations).

The "We The People" Ideal is the one loser in their foolishness (for greed), or if not completely lost yet, we're getting there fast, along with this ugly "climate CHANGE" that won't "CHANGE" in the direction it should, but only get worse as the years go by.

However, we must keep doing what we do. Push for the truth. Never stop. Because we hope they will listen sooner than later, and we know it's the only way this world gone mad, because of stolen power and money, will ever stand a small chance to keep on creating life in a perfect environment.

Otherwise, life will die (except for maybe not in a very few ultra-deep oceans' areas).

Great thread, BHN, and all. Thanks, and never give up.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #133
164. Fucking WELCOME TO DU!!! Boy do we need you!
What a relief new posters are when they actually KNOW something.
BIG FUCKING BHN Kisses to YOU!
BHN
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Indie Girl Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #164
166. Thanks, doll!
A big M'wah to you and also to Amonester. :)

I think threads like these are so important right now where we should be discussing the real issues. Best thread in my short days here, I've been on the election discussion side here too and it seems to be filled with just polls, who would you vote for and no real substance as to why. Mind you, I'm not complaining, but there should be more discussion.

I've stated before I'm on the fence, leaning towards Edwards or Clinton. I will not be voting for Obama. Early on I was Obama or Clinton, but taking a long look and listening, IMO Obama is a mere puppet. Edwards stands on his own and can deliever without catchy phrases and cutsie words. The man has SUBSTANCE.

I'm really afraid all this talk about pulling out of Iraq is just that. Talk. Whoever is the next POTUS will pull out a few troops to throw us a bone. There is too much chaos and of course, there's the issue of OIL.

I've never been so infuriated with the media since they hyped up the shrew Bush as a "compassionate conservative". They never report on Edwards, they only put Obama on a pedestal or trash Hillary Clinton. It is shameful! We are facing tough times here (I'm a day trader and I see it, since September the market has taken a 2000 pt hit) and it feels like the media is trying to feed us all Prozac with their Peace, Love and Happiness is what Obama stands for garbage! This is just MASKING our problems, a quick warm and fuzzy feel fix, but what are the solutions? Get off the meds and guess what, the problems are still there.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #133
180. Thanks Indie Girl, this is a big concern to me,too.
Obama said this:"We must maintain the strongest, best-equipped military in the world in order to defeat and deter conventional threats."


Sounds like the same crap we hear from this regime...I mean administration.
Same words...same actions...change my ass.

Welcome to DU.

DR
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #105
147. Obama Foreign Policy
At his Campaign web site under Issues his Foreign Policy plan has an Adobe link that I have not been able to open. No such address. Please check to make sure you have the right address and try again. Or words to that effect.
On the numerous other policy plans it had a brief synopsis of what Obama "thinks," and I was directed to read a handful of speeches Obama gave on the idea.
What actual plan does he have for any policies?

Can anyone here tell me where, other than his speeches on his ideas, I can find his thought out plans on implementing policy so I can decide whether I want to join The Movement or not?
Oh wait, nevermind.

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CGowen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #147
150. You'll probably have to look at his advisers
Edited on Wed Jan-09-08 09:17 PM by CGowen
If Brezinski is going to run the show, it won't be good for Russia and central Asia, some suggest he could be trying to get China out of Africa to use them to fight for Russia's resources.
I don't know if this is true or will play out, I haven't even fully read "The Grand Chessboard" or his newest book.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
...
Nonetheless, Russia is an increasingly revisionist state, more and more openly positioning itself to attempt at least a partial reversal of the geopolitical losses it suffered in the early 1990s. Cutting off direct U.S. access to Caspian and Central Asian oil is high on the Kremlin's list. Moreover, longer-term geopolitical threats are seen by Moscow's elite as involving potential Chinese encroachments on Russia's empty but mineral-rich eastern areas and American political encroachments on the populated western areas of Russia's recently lost imperial domain.

In that context, the outbreak of a political conflict in the Persian Gulf may not be viewed by all Moscow strategists as a one-sided evil. The dramatic spike in oil prices would harm China and America while unleashing a further wave of anti-American hostility. In that context, Europe might distance itself from America while both Europe and China would become more dependent on Russia's energy supplies. Russia would clearly be the financial and geopolitical beneficiary.

The stakes of a serious crisis in the Persian Gulf are thus far-reaching. They could cause a more dramatic shift in the global distribution of power than even the one that occurred after the Cold War ended. Given this, a comprehensive, strategic dialogue between the United States and China regarding the relevance of their shared experience dealing with North Korea to the potential crisis with Iran could be timely and historically expedient.
...
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
110. well, kabuki theater was always a topical entertainment for the masses...
don't be sad. there's lots of people on DU and elsewhere who get it. it's just there's plenty of people all around, including DU, who have vested interests in propping up the scenery. all vessels of power need their hierarchy of lackeys. but all vessels of power eventually corrode and fade into obsolescence, too.

what you are witnessing is the slow dive of a young (deeply violent and hypocritical, but ironically promising) nation's meteoric rise is all. it's been happening well over both our lives, too. we are reaching the crescendo now; things will become interesting in short. when the scenery is on fire it's hard to maintain a theatrical sense of atmosphere, y'know.

if it helps some we are currently going through the reversed knight of cups: the decadence, false hopes, and two-timing lover. we've already passed out of the lone woman of courage, but their effects will stay with us for a while yet. after 'da playa' (hate the game not the player) we'll careen into the Tower, and thus the machines of power holding this nightmare up will collapse. it's really not that bad of a situation right now; well, unless you're trying to save america, that is.

the world as you know it is going to collapse, so the best you can do is enjoy the slow dive. take a bump of coke off the tummy of a beautiful but untrustworthy lover, slap on your pirated music, and watch that DVD you stole from the library. enjoy the betrayal and coming collapse for what it is, a fascinating facet of eternity.

O8) :hi:
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bpeale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
113. wow. just wow!
great piece. going to bookmark this one for future use. thanks!
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
115. I know EXACTLY how you feel. n/t
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
116. I don't and never did but thank you for the long explanation for any unknowing sheeple
We need people to wake up from the sleepwalking. That so called government is more like a gang of thugsters.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
119. Here's a post I wrote just yesterday that reminds me of your post.
Am I the only one who is extremely wary and suspicious of anyone who wants to be a leader?

I have been quietly observing the primaries (okay, not quietly..I've made a couple of inane comments here and there ) and I'm sort of disconcerted by how easy other people find it to follow leaders.

This is not an anti-Obama thread. It is not an anti-Hillary thread. It is not an anti-Edwards thread. I really have no preference for any of them. And that's sort of my point. I can understand how somebody can mildly prefer one candidate over another...especially if they share their policies on issues that matter to you.

What I don't get is how anybody could let their emotions take over their reasoning so much that they feel personally threatened when someone disses their candidate. I've always been anti-authoritarian and extremely cynical of people who seek power. In my view, it is likely that all the candidates running for president really don't care about you and I as much as they care about power, control, money and priveledge. It's not that they don't care at ALL about us, but it is really secondary to their ambitions and their egos. It's the way it's always been with leaders throught-out history.

I HATE feeling like livestock. I HATE feeling like some sort of sheep. I HATE that people will fight and argue over people who don't have a clue who the fuck you are, and could really give a shit about you. I HATE that almost every Charismatic leader and cult leader has a huge group of people who will follow them to the grave if they have to. I HATE that people have no awareness of how they are being used by the rich and powerful. I HATE that people are so easy to manipulate and are willing to give their power as readily as their leaders are willing to take it.

I don't know how this post is going to be taken. I don't know if I'm going to be flamed or not.

But I'm still going to ask you to be more cynical. And not just with the presidential candidates or primary candidates. I'm asking you to be more cynical about your church leaders, your business leaders, you spiritual leaders, and your political leaders.

And remember this: I'll bet you that any random DUer, even one who doesn't support your candidate, would probably be 100 times as likely to help you out of a bind than any one of your supposed leaders. And if anyone ever calls you a sycophant or a sheep, maybe you should listen to what they have to say.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #119
167. Excellent Advice. Be wary. Be cynical. Keep your guard up. K & R this post too. nt







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tex-wyo-dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
121. Thank you, thank you, thank you, BHN...
for being the voice of truth in the electoral muck that DU seems to have become as of late.

In reality, Hillary or Barack, it simply won't matter, particularly with regards to Amerika's criminal foreign policy, which is designed to maximize the profits for the uber-wealthy no matter how inhumane and immoral the methods and results may be. As you've shown, the people surrounding the Dem candidates are from the same Beltway club that had a hand in most of the conflicts and wars over the last few decades, so if you're expecting the neo-con excursions into the mid-east and our blackmailing third world countries to gain cheap access to their resources to suddenly come to an end, you are in for a big disappointment.

I support Edwards and I realize that he has a far from perfect record, but if he is sincere about what he is campaigning on, I see him as the only candidate who has both the possibility of being elected and making any meaningful changes. I also realize that even if he does become president, there will be serious resistance from the entrenched powers-that-be to any of his initiatives wrt limiting corporate power over politics.

Saving and fixing our republic will take a very long time; unfortunately I fear we don't have that long.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
122. It was a Lieberman victory on both counts
and still folks around here are being fooled :shrug:
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lazyriver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
123. This thread reminds me why I originally fell in love with DU
Thank you for posting it and thank you to those who contributed to it. Today, I really needed to know there were some sane people left in the world. I hope you find some peace out at Joshua Tree.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
125. But...but...but...you're just beating up on Hillary cuz she's a woman. And...and...
you're ignoring Obamania!



:eyes:

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pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
126. K&R
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Blackdog4241 Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
127. They say that an alcoholic has to hit...
rock bottom before they might seek help.
As a country I thought we were there but I guess not.
At least there are some people that feel the way I do. :toast:
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corkhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
129. nothing to add that you haven't already K&R
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
131. I'm scared to death
I have nothing, no savings, no retirement fund, no job, no nothing. I have a micro business, but that was so bad last year that it was a joke. If my son hadn't found a job, I don't know where we would be. And, I don't think anything is going to change. First of all, I don't think Clinton or Obama would ever end up in the White House if nominated. And even by some miracle they get in there, by the time I get medical help, I'll be in a wheel chair because my knees will no longer function.

Edwards is my only hope. He's my only hope that anything will change and that us poor folk will ever get a voice.

zalinda
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
134. not everyone sees as clearly as you do
We are going to need another 4 years of corporate-sponsored suicide and then maybe people will see.
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AliceWonderland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
135. The Zbigniew Brzezinski angle is particularly disturbing
Maybe because DU is the place that schooled me (and how) about "The Grand Chessboard." Perhaps it's such a disturbing instance because Senator Obama is running an entire campaign as "new" while the Clinton days are old and dirty -- yet, he's surrounding himself with Clinton people.

Thank you for posting this. I'm in the same place as many on this thread; we will never solve problems we are even unwilling to name the beast.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
136. I have posted this several times
in several threads. No one has given a decent response to defend these choices. Actually, no defending at all.

Thank You BHN! K&R!

:hi:
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
139. Excellent post. Thanks.
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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
140. THANK YOU ! Proud to K&R !
:applause: :patriot: :yourock:
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
141. BRAVO!
Recommended, of course. This is exactly why I will likely NOT be voting democratic next november-- the dem candidate will probably be just another flavor of the republican candidate, and they'll both be serving the same agenda. America does not need a DEMOCRAT-- America needs a CHANGE. None of the current front runner dems will provide that change.
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Cronopio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
144. Big K&R! nt
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
145. Wow.
:banghead:
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
146. A Clinton or Obama Presidency = bandaid over a mortal wound.
Are democrats the same as republicans? No.

Will some better things happen with ANY democratic congress and any democratic president? Yes.

Will Clinton or Obama bring us real "Change" significant enough to avert the continuing track of total downward spiral this country and this culture is on?

No.


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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #146
174. The next President will be our Gorbachev
Presiding over a nation on the irreversible slide into oblivion.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
148. Government of, by and for Think Tanks
behind, in-between, intermingling, entrenched, etc., in the Washington Media-Political-Corporate-K Street Establishment, the status quo ... where the elite, the plutocrats, finds 'non-partisanship' ~ wink, wink, nod, nod ~ and seeks ways ("policies") to profit ("problem solving") via think-tanking governmental affairs ... corporate funded

I don't think the people associated with these groups are thinking "change".

i.e., The Aspen Institute http://www.aspeninstitute.org /

where Madeleine Albright mingles with Nixon-man Fred Malek and Prince Bandar bin Sultan and Henry Kissinger

The Board of Trustees

Active Trustees | Lifetime Trustees

William E. Mayer
Chairman of the Board

Henry E. Catto
Vice Chairman

Lester Crown
Vice Chairman
Walter Isaacson

President & CEO

Active Trustees

Madeleine K. Albright
Principal
The Albright Group LLC

Ann McLaughlin Korologos
Chairman Emeritus, The Aspen Institute
Chairman, RAND Board of Trustees

Mercedes Bass
Sid R. Bass Inc.

Timothy K. Krauskopf
Principal
Round Lake Designs, LLC

*Berl Bernhard
Chairman Emeritus of the Board of Directors
Partner
DLA Piper Rudnick Gray Cary US LLP (who does DLA support? - opensecrets.org)

Leonard A. Lauder
Chairman Emeritus of the Board of Directors
The Estee Lauder Companies, Inc.

William D. Budinger
Founder, Former Chairman and CEO
Rodel, Inc.

Elisabeth Lulin
President
Institut Aspen France

Stephen L. Carter
Professor of Law
Yale University Law School

*Frederic V. Malek
Chairman
Thayer Capital Partners

*Henry E. Catto
Former U.S. Ambassador to Great Britain;
Chair
Atlantic Council of the United States

Robert H. Malott
Retired Chairman and CEO
FMC Corporation

*Lester Crown
Chairman
Henry Crown and Company
Vice Chairman
The Aspen Institute

James M. Manyika
Partner
McKinsey & Company

F. Peter Cundill
Founder
Cundill Investments Research

*William E. Mayer
Chairman of the Board
The Aspen Institute;
Partner
Park Avenue Equity Partners

Andrea Cunningham
Chief Executive Officer
CXO Communication

Bonnie Palmer McCloskey
President
Cornerstone Holdings, LLC

Tarun Das
Chief Mentor
Confederation of Indian Industry

Anne Welsh McNulty
Senior Director
JBK Partners

**William L. Davis
Chairman and COO
WLD Davis Holdings, LLC

Karlheinz Muhr
Managing Director
Credit Suisse First Boston

John Doerr
Partner
Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers

Clare Muana
President
Ancora Associates, Inc.

Sylvia A. Earle
Chairman
Deep Ocean Exploration & Research

Elinor Bunin Munroe
President
Elinor Bunin Productions, Inc.

Michael D. Eisner
Tornante Company

Jerry Murdock
Managing Director and Co-Founder
Insight Venture Partners

Leonhard Fischer
Chairman
Aspen Institute Berlin

Roberto H. Murray
Chairman
Fundemas;
President, Agricola Industrial
Salvadorena, SA

Alan Fletcher
President and CEO
Aspen Music Festival and School

William A. Nitze
Chairman
GridPoint, Inc.

Stephen Friedman
Senior Advisor
Stone Point Capital

Her Majesty Queen Noor
Humanitarian Activist; UN Expert Advisor

Henry Louis Gates, Jr.
W.E.B. Du Bois Professor of the Humanities
Harvard University

Olara A. Otunnu
President
LBL Foundation for Children

Mircea Geoana
President
Aspen Institute Romania

Elaine Pagels
Professor of Religion
Princeton University

David Gergen
Professor of Public Service
John F. Kennedy School of Government,
Harvard University;
Editor-at-Large
US News & World Report

Michel Pebereau
President
BNP Paribas;
Chairman
Institut Aspen France

*Alma L. Gildenhorn
Honorary Trustee
Kennedy Center

Lord Powell
Chairman
Sagitta Asset Management Limited

Jamshyd Godrej
Chairman
Aspen Institute India

Michael K. Powell
Chairman
The MK Powell Group

*Gerald Greenwald
Managing Partner
Greenbriar Equity Group

*Margot L. Pritzker
Chairperson
Zohar Education Project Incorporative

Patrick W. Gross
Chairman
The Lovell Group

Peter Reiling
Executive Vice President for Leadership and Policy Programs
The Aspen Institute*

Arjun Gupta
Founder and Managing Partner
Telesoft Partners

*Lynda Resnick
Co-Owner and Vice Chairman
Roll International Corporation

*Sidney Harman
Executive Chairman
Harman International Industries, Inc.

Isaac O. Shongwe
Chief Executive Officer
DNA Supply Chain of South Africa;
Chairman
Letsema Consulting Company

Hayne Hipp
Chairman and CEO
The Liberty Corporation

Albert H. Small
President
Southern Engineering Corp.

Gerald D. Hosier
Law Offices of Gerald D. Hosier Ltd.

*Robert K. Steel
Chairman
The Aspen Institute;
Under Secretary of Domestic Finance
U.S. Department of Treasury

Ann Frasher Hudson
Partner
Javelina Partners

Andrew L. Stern
International President
Service Employees International Union

Robert J. Hurst
Managing Director
Crestview Advisors, LLC

Giulio Tremonti
Chairman
Aspen Institute Italia

*Walter Isaacson
President & CEO
The Aspen Institute

Roderick von Lipsey
Vice President
Goldman Sachs & Co.

William N. Joy
Partner
Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers

Vin Weber
Managing Partner
Clark & Weinstock

Yotaro Kobayashi
Chief Corporate Advisor
Fuji Xerox Co., Ltd.

Frederick B. Whittemore
Advisory Director
Morgan Stanley & Co., Inc.

David H. Koch
Executive Vice President
Chemical Technology
Koch Industries, Inc.

Alice Young, Esq.
Chair, Asia Pacific Practice (U.S.)
Kaye Scholer LLP


* Executive Committee
** Trustees on Leave of Absence

Lifetime Trustees

James C. Calaway
Chairman of Lifetime Trustees

Prince Bandar bin Sultan
Former Saudi Ambassador to the United States

John P. Mascotte
Former President and CEO
Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Kansas City

Keith Berwick
Keith Berwick Chair
The Aspen Institute

Robert S. McNamara
Former President
The World Bank

John Brademas
President Emeritus
New York University

Olivier Mellerio
Institut Aspen France
Interfinexa

James C. Calaway
Chairman, Lifetime Trustees
The Aspen Institute;
Investor

Hisashi Owada
International Court of Justice

Lisle C. Carter, Jr.
Attorney

John J. Phelan, Jr.
Chairman Emeritus
The Aspen Institute
Retired Chairman and CEO
New York Stock Exchange

William T. Coleman, Jr.
Senior Partner and The Senior Counselor
O'Melveny & Myers

Thomas R. Pickering
Hills and Company

Al Dietsch
Chairman
Best Year Yet LLC

Warren B. Rudman
Partner
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton and Garrison

William H. Donaldson
Donaldson Enterprises

Jay Sandrich
TV and Film Director

James L. Ferguson
Retired Chairman and CEO
General Foods Corporation

Lloyd G. Schermer
Retired Chairman & CEO
Lee Enterprises

Jacqueline Grapin
President
The European Institute

Carlo Scognamiglio
Honorary Chairman
Aspen Institute Italia

Irvine O. Hockaday, Jr.
Retired President and CEO
Hallmark Cards, Inc.

Kathy D. Smith
Former Board Member
Daubert Industries

Nina Rodale Houghton
President
Wye Institute

Phillips Talbot
President Emeritus
The Asia Society

Shirley Hufstedler
Senior Counsel
Morrison & Foerster

Solomon D. Trujillo
Chairman, CEO and President
Graviton, Inc.

Jrme Huret
Former President
Institut Aspen France

Paul A. Volcker
Former Chairman of the Board of Governors
Federal Reserve System

Robert S. Ingersoll
Former U. S. Ambassador to Japan

Leslie H. Wexner
President and Chairman of the Board
The Limited, Inc.

Henry A. Kissinger
Chairman
Kissinger Associates, Inc.

Clifton R. Wharton, Jr.
Former Chairman and CEO
TIAA/CREF

Gerald M. Levin
Retired Chairman and CEO
Time Warner, Inc.

Dolores Wharton
Founder and Chair
Fund for Corporate Initiatives

http://www.aspeninstitute.org/site/c.huLWJeMRKpH/b.6120...


i.e., Center for Strategic and International Studies http://www.csis.org /

meeting ground for both Kissinger and Brzezinski

Chairman
Sam Nunn* ** -- Cochairman & CEO, Nuclear Threat Initiative

Vice Chairman & Co-Founder
David M. Abshire -- President, Center for the Study of the Presidency

Chairman of the Executive Committee
William A. Schreyer* -- Chairman Emeritus, Merrill Lynch & Co., Inc.

Vice Chairman of the Executive Committee
Anne Armstrong* -- Former U.S. Ambassador to Great Britain

President & CEO
John J. Hamre* -- President & CEO, CSIS

Trustees

* George L. Argyros -- Chairman & CEO, Arnel & Affiliates
* Richard Armitage -- President, Armitage International
* Betty Beene -- Former President & CEO, United Way of America
* Reginald K. Brack -- Former Chairman & CEO, Time, Incorporated
* William E. Brock** -- Counselor and Trustee, CSIS
* Harold Brown** -- Counselor and Trustee, CSIS
* Zbigniew Brzezinski** -- Counselor and Trustee, CSIS
* William S. Cohen -- Chairman & CEO, The Cohen Group
* Ralph Cossa -- President, Pacific Forum/CSIS
* Richard Fairbanks -- Counselor and Trustee, CSIS
* William H. Frist -- Trustee, CSIS
* Michael P. Galvin* -- President, Harrison Street Capital, LLC
* Helene D. Gayle -- President & CEO, CARE USA
* Linda W. Hart -- Vice Chairman & CEO, The Hart Group, Inc.
* Ben W. Heineman, Jr. -- CSIS Trustee and Senior Adviser
* Thomas O. Hicks -- Chairman, Hicks Holdings LLC
* Carla A. Hills** -- Chairman & CEO, Hills & Company
* Ray L. Hunt -- Chairman & CEO, Hunt Consolidated, Inc.
* E. Neville Isdell -- Chairman & CEO, The Coca-Cola Company
* James L. Jones -- Trustee, CSIS
* Henry A. Kissinger** -- Chairman & CEO, Kissinger Associates, Inc.
* Kenneth G. Langone -- President & CEO, Invemed Associates, LLC
* Donald B. Marron -- Chairman & CEO, Lightyear Capital
* Joseph Nye -- Distinguished Service Professor, Harvard University, Kennedy School of Government
* E. Stanley ONeal -- Former Chairman and CEO, Merrill Lynch & Company, Inc.
* Thomas Pritzker -- Chairman & CEO, The Pritzker Organization, LLC
* Joseph E. Robert -- Chairman and CEO, The J.E. Robert Companies (JER)
* Felix G. Rohatyn -- Senior Adviser, Lehman Brothers
* David M. Rubenstein -- Cofounder and Managing Director, The Carlyle Group
* Charles A. Sanders -- Former Chairman & CEO, Glaxo Inc.
* James R. Schlesinger** -- Senior Adviser, Lehman Brothers, Inc.
* Brent Scowcroft** -- President, Forum for International Policy
* Rex Tillerson -- Chairman & CEO, Exxon Mobil Corporation
* Frederick B. Whittemore -- Advisory Director, Morgan Stanley


TRUSTEES EMERITUS

* Amos A. Jordan -- President Emeritus, CSIS
* Murray Weidenbaum -- Hon. Chair, Weidenbaum Center, Washington University
* Dolores D. Wharton -- Retired Chairman and CEO, Fund For Corporate Initiatives, Inc.


COUNSELORS

* William E. Brock -- Counselor and Trustee, CSIS
* Harold Brown -- Counselor and Trustee, CSIS
* Zbigniew Brzezinski -- Counselor and Trustee, CSIS
* Frank C. Carlucci -- Counselor, CSIS
* Richard Fairbanks -- Counselor and Trustee, CSIS
* Carla A. Hills -- Chairman & CEO, Hills & Company
* Henry A. Kissinger -- Chairman & CEO, Kissinger Associates, Inc.
* Theodore McCarrick -- Counselor, CSIS
* Sam Nunn -- Cochairman & CEO, Nuclear Threat Initiative
* James R. Schlesinger -- Senior Advisor, Lehman Brothers, Inc.
* Brent Scowcroft -- President, Forum for International Policy

http://www.csis.org/about/trustees /


i.e., Council on Foreign Relations http://www.cfr.org

with Madeleine K. Albright and Leslie Gelb and other characters


Board of Directors

Carla A. Hills
Co-Chairman; Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Hills & Company

Robert E. Rubin
Co-Chairman; Director and Chairman of the Executive Committee, Citigroup, Inc.

Richard E. Salomon
Vice Chairman; Chairman, Mecox Ventures, Inc.

Richard N. Haass
President, Council on Foreign Relations

Peter Ackerman
Managing Director, Rockport Capital, Inc.

Fouad Ajami
M. Khadduri Prof. of Middle Eastern Studies, Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University

Madeleine K. Albright
Principal, The Albright Group LLC

Charlene Barshefsky
Senior International Partner, Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP

Henry S. Bienen
President, Northwestern University

Stephen W. Bosworth
Dean, The Fletcher School, Tufts University

Tom Brokaw
NBC News

Sylvia Mathews Burwell
President, Global Development Program, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

Frank J. Caufield
Co-Founder, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers

Kenneth M. Duberstein
Chairman and CEO, The Duberstein Group, Inc.

Martin S. Feldstein
President, National Bureau of Economic Research

Richard N. Foster
Managing Partner, Millbrook Management Group LLC

Stephen Friedman
Chairman, Stone Point Capital

Ann M. Fudge

Helene D. Gayle
President & CEO, CARE

Maurice R. Greenberg
Chairman & CEO, C.V. Starr & Co., Inc.

Richard C. Holbrooke
Vice Chairman, Perseus LLC

Karen Elliott House

Alberto Ibargen
President & Chief Executive Officer, John S. and James L. Knight Foundation

Henry R. Kravis
Founding Partner, Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co.

Jami Miscik
Global Head of Sovereign Risk, Lehman Brothers

Michael H. Moskow
Senior Fellow for the Global Economy, The Chicago Council on Global Affairs

Joseph S. Nye, Jr.
Distinguished Service Professor, John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University

Ronald L. Olson
Senior Partner, Munger Tolles and Olson LLP

James W. Owens
Chairman & CEO, Caterpillar Inc.

Colin L. Powell
United States Army (Ret.)

David M. Rubenstein
Co-Founder and Managing Director, The Carlyle Group

Anne-Marie Slaughter
Dean, Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs, Princeton University

Joan E. Spero
President, Doris Duke Charitable Foundation

Strobe Talbott
President, Brookings Institution

Vin Weber
CEO and Partner, Clark & Weinstock

Christine Todd Whitman
President, The Whitman Strategy Group

Fareed Zakaria
Editor, Newsweek International


Officers and Directors Emeriti:

Leslie H. Gelb (President Emeritus)
Maurice R. Greenberg (Honorary Vice Chairman)
Charles McC. Mathias, Jr. (Director Emeritus)
Peter G. Peterson (Chairman Emeritus)
David Rockefeller (Honorary Chairman)
Robert A. Scalapino (Director Emeritus)


International Advisory Board

Peter G. Peterson, Chairman, International Advisory Board (the Blackstone Group)
Chairman Emeritus, Council on Foreign Relations;
Senior Chairman and Co-Founder, The Blackstone Group

Syed Babar Ali
(Pakistan) Chairman, Interbank; Advisor, Packages Limited; Former Minister of Finance, Economic Affairs and Planning, Pakistan

Khalid A. Alturki
(Saudi Arabia), Chairman, Trading and Development Company (TRADCO)

Mukesh D. Ambani
(India), Chairman and Managing Director, Reliance Industries Ltd.

Ahmad E. Bishara
(Kuwait), Secretary-General, National Democratic Movement

Mark C. Chona
(Zambia), Chairman and CEO, Sumika Consultancy and Management Services Ltd.; former Political Adviser to the President of Zambia

Gustavo A. Cisneros
(Venezuela), Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Cisneros Group of Companies

Gerhard Cromme
(Germany) Chairman, Supervisory Board, ThyssenKrupp AG

Abdel Raouf El Reedy
(Egypt) Chairman, Egyptian Council on Foreign Affairs

Jacob A. Frenkel
(Israel), Vice Chairman, American International Group; former Governor, Bank of Israel

Mikhail Fridman
(Russia), Chairman, Alfa Bank

Toyoo Gyohten
(Japan), President, Institute for International Monetary Affairs; former Vice Minister of Finance, Japan

Baba Gana Kingibe
(Nigeria), AU Special Representative in the Sudan; former Minister of Foreign Affairs of Nigeria

Yotaro Kobayashi
(Japan), Chief Corporate Adviser, Fuji Xerox Company, Ltd.

Rahmi M. Ko
(Turkey), Honorary Chairman, Ko Holdings A.S.

Luiz Felipe Lampreia
(Brazil), Chairman of the Board of Trustees, Centro Brasileiro de Relaes Internacionais; former Foreign Minister of Brazil

Maurice Lvy
(France), Chairman of the Management Board and CEO, Publicis Groupe

Brian Mulroney
(Canada), former Prime Minister of Canada; Senior Partner, Ogilvy Renault

Sari Nusseibeh
(Palestinian Authority), President, Al Quds University

Sadako Ogata
(Japan), President, Japan International Cooperation Agency; former U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees

Lubna S. Olayan
(Saudi Arabia), Chief Executive Officer, Olayan Financing Company

Ana Palacio
(Spain), Senior Vice President and World Bank Group General Counsel

Surin Pitsuwan
(Thailand), Member of Parliament; former Foreign Minister of Thailand

Prannoy Roy
(India), President, New Delhi Television Ltd.

Zalman Shoval
(Israel), Head, Foreign Policy Bureau, Likud Party; former Israeli Ambassador to the United States

Khehla Shubane
(South Africa), Director, RMB Holdings

Washington SyCip
(Philippines), Chairman and Founder, SGV Group; Chairman, Asian Institute of Management

Horst M. Teltschik
(Germany), Chairman, Teltschik Associates GmbH

Jacob Wallenberg
(Sweden), Chairman of the Board, Investor AB

Jusuf Wanandi
(Indonesia) Senior Fellow, Centre for Strategic and International Studies (Jakarta)

Shirley V. T. Brittain Williams
(United Kingdom), Member, House of Lords

Yuan Ming
(China), Director, Institute for International Relations, Beijing University

Ernesto Zedillo Ponce de Len
(Mexico), former President of Mexico; Director, Center for the Study of Globalization, Yale University

http://www.cfr.org/about/people/international_advisory_...


i.e., The Nixon Center http://www.nixoncenter.org /

(raise your hand if names recur)

Board of Directors

Honorary Chairman: Henry A. Kissinger

Chairman: Maurice R. Greenberg

Dwayne O. Andreas
Jeffrey L. Bewkes
Conrad M. Black
Charles G. Boyd
Tricia Nixon Cox
Julie Nixon Eisenhower
Robert F. Ellsworth (Vice Chairman)
Leslie H. Gelb
Henry A. Kissinger
Eugene K. Lawson
Joseph I. Lieberman
John McCain
Lionel H. Olmer
Peter G. Peterson
Richard Plepler
Pat Roberts
James Schlesinger
Brent Scowcroft
J. Robinson West
Dimitri K. Simes, Center President (Ex Officio)
John H. Taylor, Executive Director of Richard Nixon Library & Birthplace Foundation (Ex Officio)

Advisory Council

Chairman: James Schlesinger

David Abshire
Richard V. Allen
Christopher Cox
John Deutch
David Eisenhower
Susan Eisenhower
Evan G. Greenberg
Lee H. Hamilton
Rita E. Hauser
Josef Joffe
Donald M. Kendall
Peter Kovler
Charles Krauthammer
Robert C. McFarlane
Janne Nolan
Joseph S. Nye, Jr.
Alexei K. Pushkov
John E. Rielly
Peter R. Rosenblatt
William V. Roth, Jr.
Thomas A. Russo
Angela Stent
Marin Strmecki
Yuli Vorontsov

http://web.archive.org/web/20050205063607/www.nixoncent...


The U.S.- Azerbaijan Chamber of Commerce http://www.usacc.org

HONORARY COUNCIL OF ADVISORS

James Baker III
Zbigniew Brzezinski
Henry Kissinger
Brent Scowcroft
John Sununu

FORMER MEMBERS OF THE ADVISORY COUNCIL AND THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS

The following individuals of high distinction have previously served on the Advisory Council and the Board of Directors:

Dick Cheney
Vice President of the United States of America

Richard Armitage
Deputy Secretary of State


--------------------------
to name a few organizations
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ShadesOfGrey Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
149. K&R
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gsplfnk Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
152. Change, my ass
You omitted John Edwards. As much as he mouths against corporatism and for populist causes, he is a corporatist. Most importantly, he has been purchased by AIPAC,and AIPAC rates him between Hillary Clinton (she loves Israel the most) and Barrack Obama (he is on board and can be trained to love us more). The three of them are AIPAC shills. It has to do with promises made to Israel, and awards to the candidates/Senators/Representatives for said promises and allegiance to Zionism.

This is why Obama, Clinton and Edwards have Israel's security first and foremost on their minds, why they are willing to keep forces in Iraq (instead of making direct pledges to redirect war funding to pay for, say...national health care--ever wondered about that?), and why none of the top three will take shock and awe against Iran off the table.

This is the root cause, the nexus of why there is little difference between GWB and the top three Democrats when it comes to foreign policy. They each owe their primary allegiance (financially) to the security of Israel. Get that? Not the United States. Israel!

You are right. There is a net no-gain with the top three Democrats in '08. Your rant was absolutely correct, but you need to look at the fundamentals of what really merits your anger.

It is possibly scarrier than you may have thought.

c.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
153. Then why not become a Republican and post on Free Republic?
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #153
161. because change for the good of the country must come from the people.
Where does it say that the rich and powerful must dictate the direction we head? We've live several administrations under strict corporate control-how's that working out for the country?
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
154. Yep, it is indeed the two party/same corporate master system of government
Just another mummer's play to keep the public pacified and believing that they actually make some sort of difference.

Hopefully enough people will wake up and realize this before it is too late. Sadly, I don't think that will happen.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
156. Bush,Clinton,Bush,Clinton. Yup , You too could be President.
:sarcasm:
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
157. I thank you for this post
It burns my britches that so many otherwise intelligent people can't be bothered to look beneath the surface and see the level at which we are being played.

Through deception we lift up our destroyers, divide and conquer is the name of the game. Recognize your enemies, support your fellow victims.Please.

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
160. Yup
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-09-08 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
163. Thank you so much for your righteous post! Rec'd, of course. You speak for me!
I'm sorry I didn't see this last night -- I was already in bed when you posted.

But, DAMN! You are absolutely right on! I cannot thank you enough for putting in all the work it took to make your OP.

It makes me sick as well.

Electoral politics changes nothing. And it's extremely painful to watch so many people fall for the surface song and dance, when one can see that the powers behind the curtain do not change, no matter who you vote for.

The only possible path of REAL change lies through building a progressive movement from the ground up, outside of electoral politics. The sooner people understand this, the sooner we can get to work.

Thank you again for your eloquent and insightful post.

:loveya:
sw
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #163
168. Hi, scarletwoman!
Too bad you missed our Minnesota gathering on 12/28.

Check back to the MN Forum periodically to find out when the next one is!

Anyway, I have had no illusions about elections in this country since seeing the Kucinich campaign from the inside four years ago. It's frightening to talk to people who know nothing except what the mass media have planted in their heads.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #168
172. Hi Lydia!
I actually do check into the Minnesota forum now and then (as a silent lurker), the 12/28 gathering just wasn't possible for me with my current work schedule.

Anyway, 2004 burned me out on politics big time. I dutifully voted straight Dem in 2006, like I've done every election for four decades. But I honestly don't much care about electoral politics anymore. It's a rigged game, the Money People will always make sure they come out on top. I think it's foolish and naive to put ones hopes into it.

Things aren't going to change until we build a movement outside of the entrenched power structure, which means outside of electoral politics -- except on the local level.

It's certainly discouraging to me to see so many people being fooled. And the worst is seeing so people who are willing to be fooled, because they simply cannot bear to let go of their illusions.

sw
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
169. Kickety Kick!
:kick:
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
170. Error:
You can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours.

You have inspired me, BHN. I knew there was a reason I've always liked you!

To be continued...
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
171. Reality-based souls think 2006 was a "disappointment?"
WHAT a fuckin' set-up you're in NOW! Yo, BHN, you have the right idea, it's time for a break. Just scanned a few "shuck & jive" threads and watching Amis heads explode right, left and center, is quite the spectacle. But the REAL ISSUES are NOT being dicussed. I admit it's been entertaining up to his point watching this predominately white board implode with accusations of racism and sexism. Today the "heavies" are weighing-in with their "endorsements" and the set-up is totally transparent to those with the experience to believe their "lying eyes." Commenting is no more than pissing in the dying ocean...
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #171
173. "...pissing in the dying ocean." Wow, what a turn of phrase! I love it!
Hey, Karenina. I'm sure grateful that I've gotten to meet you on this dying ocean.

Mostly what I think about nowadays is that the ordinary people of all empires have managed through the centuries to quietly persist with living their quiet ordinary lives. That's pretty much all I want anymore, to quietly live my life, passing on what I've learned and know to be true to my children and whomever else might be open to listening.

Seems to me that these times call for carefully protecting seeds and embers, and making sure that we have people in our lives to whom we can pass on this task of protecting seeds and embers once we are gone.

I may not live to see the seeds blossom or the embers fanned into a great fire, but I'll do what I can while I'm here, because I refuse to give up hope altogether.

:loveya:
sw
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #173
176. I'm with you SW & Karenina...
"...to quietly live my life, passing on what I've learned and know to be true to my children and whomever else might be open to listening."

I'm still hanging on to hope,too....sometimes by a tiny filament of light, but it ain't dead yet.


:loveya:
:grouphug:
DR
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #176
177. I love that you are an artist. Artists tap directly into the collective consciousness.
I've always told both my sons, one a musician and one a graphic artist, that what they do is extremely important. Artists are some of the most powerful sowers of the seeds necessary to move human consciousness forward.

:loveya:
:grouphug:
sw
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #177
179. Aww, thank you, SW.
:loveya: :hug: :grouphug:

I wish all artists were nurtured and supported more in this world....I find it very sad that so many creative people are deemed less valuable in this society. Its a constant struggle to do what we came here to do....

Bless you and your creative sons. My son is a writer/photographer and my daughter is also an watercolor artist as well as a writer....it can be pretty tough to live by your art, whatever it may be.....


:loveya: :hug: :grouphug:
DR
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #179
181. Creative people are rightly perceived by society as a threat. That's why society won't support them.
Artists hold up a mirror, most of "society" would prefer not to see itself.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #181
183. You're just so wise, SW.
:hug: :loveya:
DR
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #183
184. Don't know about that. I just say what I think.
Dust in the wind, and all that...

:loveya:
sw
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
175. Kick...
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Digit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
182. K&R
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
187. Let's see who's paying attention...
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