The extermination of the american natives needs to be held in the same regard as the holocaust.

[Smith_3]

The notion that the holocaust, committed by the german nazis against the jews, was a singular historic event, unprecedented by any other event by its scale and gruesomeness is false. The systematic genocide of the native american population, committed by the white settlers of america, should have the same status.

[EFerrari]

1. Agreed.

K&R

[old guy]

2. True, but not in this world I'm afraid.

[Donnachaidh]

3. og but wait -- America DOESN'T do genocide!

I worry for the Lakota. I really do.

[aquart]

4. If it makes you happy, go for it.

But I gotta tell you, it's not the honor you think it is. I'm more than happy to share.

[lonestarnot]

5. Absolutely!

[rubberducky]

6. Very, very sad, but unfortunetly true.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. And, so should the enslavement of millions of people.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatv.htm

Slavery
African American Slavery

In American Holocaust (1992), David Stannard estimates that some 30 to 60 million Africans died being enslaved. He claims a 50% mortality rate among new slaves while being gathered and stored in Africa, a 10% mortality among the survivors while crossing the ocean, and another 50% mortality rate in the first "seasoning" phase of slave labor. Overall, he estimates a 75-80% mortality rate in transit.

In Slavery A World History, Milton Meltzer estimates that 10 million slaves arrived in the Americas. This would be the residue after 12.5% of those shipped out from Africa died on the ocean, 4-5% died while waiting in harbor, and 33% died during the first year of seasoning.

In "The Atlantic Slave Trade and the Holocaust" (Is the Holocaust Unique, A. Greebaum, ed., 1996), Seymour Drescher estimates that 21M were enslaved, 1700-1850, of which 7M remained in slavery inside Africa. 4M died "as a direct result of enslavement". Of the 12M shipped to America, 15%, or 2M more, died in the Middle Passage and seasoning year.

Jan Rogozinski, A Brief History of the Caribbean (1994): "s many as eight million Africans may have died in order to bring four million slaves to the Caribbean islands."

In The Slave Trade, Hugh Thomas estimates that 13M left African ports, and 11,328,000 arrived. Here are a few other numbers from Thomas:

* No year-by-year stats, but by piecing together scattered decade stats, I figure that 5M slaves were shipped in the 18th Century.
* Shipboard mortality among slaves:
o Mercado in 1569 estimated an average shipboard mortality of 20%
o Brazilian historians: 15-20% in 16th C; 10% in 19th C.
o English trade:
+ 1680s: 24%
+ early 18th C: 10%
+ 1780s: 5.65%
o Hugh Thomas: 9% reasonable est. for 18th C.
o 19th C
+ Cliffe: 35%
+ House of Commons: 9.1%
+ Thomson: 9%
+ Hotham: 5%

In the chapter on African population in the Atlas of World Population History (1978), Colin McEvedy estimates that 9.5 million African slaves were imported into the Americas between 1500 and 1880. He also suggests a 15% mortality rate on the ocean.

Rummel estimates a total death toll of 17,267,000 African slaves (1451-1870)

* Among slaves going to Orient: 2,400,000 dead
* Among slaves staying in Africa: 1,200,000 dead
* Among slaves going to New World: 13,667,000 dead

Fredric Wertham claims that 150,000,000 Africans died of the slave trade.

[dpbrown]

8. The same? 60 million in North America versus 6 million in Europe?

The genocide of the native peoples of the Americas was devastating on a far grander scale. Whole cultures, languages, and civilizations were wiped out forever.

[wundermaus]

9. The Americans commited genecide just as the nazis...

By Systematically, Methodically, and Relentlessly exterminating whole populations of indigenous peoples across the entire north American continent. People and cultures that had existed for thousands of years. To say that WE saved the world from fascism is the very pinnacle of hypocrisy.

[pansypoo53219]

10. the jews just have pictures and

a paper trail.
happened many times in history.

[pnorman]

11. What's missing in this example,

is that of the cold-blooded intent of total extermination, not only from the top level but shared even down to some lower levels. I see that clearly in Nazi Germany, but I don't see that in many other examples including our own nation. But as a thought-provoking hot-button word to provoke discussion, it's certainly justified.

pnorman
On edit: I missed NOTHING. I've been engaged in studying non-mainstream history from about age 18 (I'll be 78 next month). and I'll stick with my original wording. I operate in FAR more "contentious" forums than DU, and am usually in the minority. But I generally prevail, because I use my words as carefully and accurately as I can. I'm no longer interested in "feel-good consciousness-raising" in a like-minded crowd. I want to go outside and kick some ass, and I want to be as effective as I can be.

[knitter4democracy]

12. What about the smallpoxed blankets?

What about the government schools that children were kidnapped and forced to attend? What about the Trail of Tears? You really don't see intent to exterminate?

[stranger81]

15. you must have missed your American History classes . . . .

because extermination of the Indian peoples was most certainly an orchestrated, deliberate effort that involved not only the U.S. government (fighting "wars" against Indians, passing out smallpox-infected blankets to kill entire populations, driving them across the country in Bataan-style death marches), but also individual U.S. civilians in massive numbers (settlers striking out individually against Indians in their own locales). Just because it didn't happen in the last century doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[nannah]

13. how about english genocide against the celts in scotland and ireland n/t

[begin_within]

14. It's the unspoken war.

When they list all the wars that the U.S. has engaged in, they invariably omit the hundreds of years-long war against the native population. A war that in some ways is still going on.

[yellerpup]

16. Keep telling the truth.

K&R! And telling, and telling, and telling the truth for all the many millions who suffered and died and for all those who survived and never knew their blood. :kick:

[SnowGoose]

17. History doesn't repeat itself ~ but it rhymes

If I recall, it was Solomon who said, "There is nothing new under the sun". Still, huge events like these are always going to be unique, I think, in the same way as notes in an orchestral composition. A middle C is a middle C, but the notes will carry different meanings depending on how you got there and what else is going on at the same time.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to argue that what happened here in the Americas was (and is) worse in many respects ~ more people (many more) died, whole languages and cultures disappeared from the face of the earth, the ghettos (in this case the rez) are still firmly ensconced, and we're still living, for the most part, on stolen land. Oh yea, and 'they' were here first, which ought to count for something, shouldn't it?

While all that is true, it's also true that the indigenous peoples of the Americas were in the path of expansion for an expanding population, hungry for land and resources. People have been invading and conquering lands and people since time began. The Jewish scriptures contain all kinds of stories about how god wanted them to wipe out whole civilizations in "their" "promised" land. Really bad stuff, too, if you'll remember "leave nothing alive" except for the young virgin females which they could "keep for yourselves". And the English (the primary "bad guys" in North America) were also invaded, conquered, and subjugated at earlier points in their history.

If we need to place the genocide of the Native Americans in the display case of horrors with the Holocaust of the Jews in 20th century Europe, then we should also include the many other cruel tragedies of human history. I don't imagine there are many cultures or ethnicities who were not at one time the victim of horrific injustice.

It seems to me that the most useful point of reckoning for us now is how much the injustice persists into our own day. It's also the only thing we have the power to change.

Thanks for reminding us of this.

'Goose

[arikara]

18. Agreed

K&R

[Fire Walk With Me]

19. Kick and recommend.

It's bad when the Nazis do it, but when WE do it (and gain the all-powerful CONVENIENCE from having done it), it's okay.

:sarcasm:

May the American Indian have their day. May we actually learn something from them.

[flashl]

20. Agree. nt

[Sabien]

21. ahem...some of us are still here!

:hi:

[roguevalley]

22. agreed.