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I'm so fucking pissed off right now, I can't see straight...DAMMIT...

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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:35 PM
Original message
I'm so fucking pissed off right now, I can't see straight...DAMMIT...
Edited on Sun Dec-30-07 10:36 PM by rateyes
I didn't get the chance to see "Sicko" in theatres this year, and asked my daughters to get me a copy for Christmas. They did. I just finished watching it.

MANDATED HEALTH INSURANCE PLANS SUCK GRAVY.

FREE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE THAT COVERS EVERYTHING CAN BE DONE, AND WE THE PEOPLE SHOULD DEMAND IT RIGHT NOW!!

Fuck the AMA for their opposition to universal coverage. Fuck the insurance companies that look for every way under the sun not to cover medically necessary procedures.

AND FUCK EVERY CONGRESSPERSON AND ADMINISTRATION THAT DOES NOT SUPPORT FREE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!

:mad:
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for the recs. nt
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
121. read this
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #121
161. ......and this
(in Mexico any American) For a premium of $270 a year, they have access to a network of outpatient clinics, full-service hospitals and pharmacies where care and medicine are provided at no extra charge.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
189. You're welcome! And this is why I back Kucinich
The main reason is Kaiser gave me a Christmas present that jacked my premiums, copays and prescription costs way up.

And Edwards, Obama, and Hillary are doing everything they can to keep the billionaire pimps that run the insurance rackets in the game. None of them want to rock the boat for Wall Street.

My single issue right now is Single payer and Kucinich is the only one backing it.

Obama has three strikes against him--Tweety, Queen Andy Sullivan and Donny Mc Clurkin all love him, any one of those clowns rings an alarm bell in my head.

Edwards comes off as a chicken who ran away when we needed him in the Senate. He also comes off to me as a bullshit machine. Sorry, but he is the Democratic equivalent of Mitt Romney, he'll say ANYTHING to be president.

And the Whore Press wants Hillary to be the nominee so they can string her up and cut her to pieces. You know that Ad Nags, Shitstained Murray, Whoreen Dowd and her fellow Screw York Times whores like Frank Bitch are just slobbering over the thought of doing the Veg-O-Matic on her.

Not to mention Tweety, Tim the Whore, Katie Whoric, Jim Liar and the George Hamilton clone who does the stenographer in chief chores on NBC...All of them are gonna tear Hillary to pieces. When they get done with her, there won't be enough left to put in a single can of Ken-O-Ration.

Only Kucinich has the guts to stand up to these liars. He will get my vote.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. sigh -- I'm planning to watch it tomorrow
...I'd better pick up something for heartburn, eh?
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yeah, and if you needed it in France...
you could get it for free. (Or Canada, or England, or CUBA)
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aggiesal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
157. If you like HMO's, keep voting Republican ...
Listen the recording of Nixon, proved that anyone with an (R) next to their name
could care less about the people and more about the profit.

To paraphrase the recording of Nixon:
"Edgar Kaiser has a great plan called Health Maintenance Organization HMO.
The less treatment that is given the more profit the HMO's make. I think
this is a good idea."

So if anyone says anything about Socialized Medicine, just ask them if they
enjoy their HMO, and then let them know which party originated the idea,
and to keep voting Republican to keep the HMO. That simple!

We need a "Single Payer Medical System"
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #157
179. And if you like HMOs, vote for the Three Stooges!
Larry Edwards, Moe Obama, Shemp Biden, Curly Clinton and Curly Joe Dodd all want to keep the pimps in the game. All of them are doing the damnedest to make sure that the pimps running the health insurance racket are still gonna make their million dollar salaries by having their beancounters deny care to those who paid for it.

Only Kucinich has the balls to send the pimps to hell.


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Ishoutandscream2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. I got it for Christmas, too
And every one of my fundie, winger "friends" need to see it. Things could be so much better in our country if we had the mentality of "we are all in this together." It's unfathomable that the so called richest country in the world would not implement universal health care.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I am seriously thinking about visiting my Representatives office,
taking him a copy, and asking him to come to my office to watch it with me. Arrrrgggghhhhhhhhhhh.
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
129. Wouldn't waste it on my "rep".
She's made a point of voting against SCHIP. If she won't support health care for kids, no way in hell she cares about adults. She's owned.
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
132. In these here parts
even the fundies have dropped "compassionate" from their conservatism. My sister lives in Washington state and hosted a public showing of Sicko, followed by a forum and question and answer session; it went so well that she suggested that I host a similar event. In my response to her I noted that it takes someone healthy and able-bodied to host such events around here, as anything that might help the less-privileged (including the disabled) is viewed as promoting welfare for lazy people. Seriously.
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #132
204. What amasses me ...
is the response I get when I ask if they've seen SICKO, many say they haven't because "they don't want to get up-set". Talk about a nation of cowards! Is it any wonder we have the politicians we do when the people are afraid of knowledge? "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never can be." - Thomas Jefferson

I really do not believe that change can be effected through our current system of government. There is no way anyone can convince me that so-called representatives of the people are representing us - no way. Save for a very few individuals the entire system, legislative, judicial, executive and media is corrupted to it's core and save for a complete collapse, which is coming, I see nothing that will save it.
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LaStrega Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. here here!!!
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Much obliged. nt
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jmmartin Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
88. There's Just One Problem....
There's just one problem: the phrase, "Here here!!" is meaningless. The phrase you were thinking of is "Hear! Hear!" since it has reference to the sentiment that everyone should listen to what the original poster is saying. "Hear ! Hear !"
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #88
94. In this instance, OTOH, we need Universal Healthcare
Here! Here!

Now! Now!
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LaStrega Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #94
220. Please Please even!
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Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #88
120. What's wrong with.....
.... "Hear here!"???:p

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LaStrega Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #88
219. Thank you!
For the correction. I despise grammatical errors, and your clarification makes perfect sense.

Cheers and happy New Year to you and yours. :toast:

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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. Are we already paying for it
Honestly it does make me wonder

They say here in California 20% of our healthcare cost go to cover un-reimbursed medical expenses, (uninsured people) and an additional 20% goes to the profit margin and administration cost of the HMO.

Sounds like we are already paying cost equal to a State operated healthcare system like Medicaid covering 100% of the people. It is just that we need to cut out the greedy HMO and cover everyone
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Yeah. I'm talking no deductibles, free dental & vision,
prescriptions, the whole 9 yards for everyone. And, the savings in paperwork alone would probably pay for it all.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
38. 40% wasted cost
20% profit margin for the HMO
20% to cover the uninsured already

Seems to me the unisured rate in this country IS around 40%
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #38
96. And, adding the underinsured rate, and we get to
100%.
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Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
123. Saw Sicko
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 11:23 AM by Plucketeer
when it was in theaters. Amazing how other, less wealthy nations can provide virtually free health care for ALL who live within their boundaries and OUR powers-that-be are (for the most part) are steadfastly adamant as to the "sickness" our health care system would suffer if we mimicked them!
There's only ONE explanation as to why they could sing in virtual harmony. It's because the health care INDUSTRY has permeated every possible origin of contention with propoganda and bribery!!!

THIS is why I've been behind John Edwards since he's announced he was running for office this time. I want a guy who HASN'T been spoiled by Pharma or AMA moola so far as my medical care is concerned.

GO JOHNNY GO! :woohoo: :kick:

Edit: Yes, I know it wouldn't be "FREE" free. But the ultimate cost would be ridiculously insignificant compared to what it costs us now!
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
45. Kucinich has repeatedly said we are already paying in emergency room...
...costs for people who are uninsured, and other padded administrative costs, to pay for universal health care.

Too many people are scared to death of the idea of "socialized medicine." When they're sick and dying, and have no coverage at all, it all looks different.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
126. Try being self employed; you pay a few hundred a month, have a huge
deductible, and almost NOTHING is covered! I'm over 30k in debt because my National Association for the Self Employed "health insurance" wouldn't pay for two ER visits and a life saving surgery...but they were more than happy to take my $368.00 each month. :grr:

Either way you'll pay, but a Universal Healthcare system would get rid of the "for profit" factor that screws so many of us over. In the current system the doctors get screwed (my dad left the business because of all the insurance costs and hassles), patients die or become disabled from lack of care, and the insurance companies wallow in wealth. Why is this acceptable to anyone outside of the insurance industry?


BTW-I was talking to a friend yesterday who has the same type of insurance I do. I mentioned that I had not had any type of health exam in eight years or more because I knew that if they found anything paying for it would be next to impossible. To my surprise she said that neither she nor three of her co-workers had had exams in as long or longer for the very same reason. I'm in my early forties, and she's in her early fifties. We shouldn't be in this position.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #126
169. Try having health problems your entire life and come of age when
Health Care becomes full blown Health Industry. I refuse to go to the doctor, except for prescription refills once a year. I tell them... This is what I need, and I am not going to discuss any further testing or treatments that have come about in the last 20 years, unless it means a cure. Last year, the doctor called back saying that she was concerned with my 'mildly high blood pressure,' which hasn't gotten any worse the last few years, and she told me that 'studies' (pharmaceutical no doubt) indicated that people were more at risk with mildly high blood pressure and need to be on medication. My response was, no thank you, once I start, then it only escalates and I remain on it for the rest of my life. I would rather not take it and get hit with a massive fatal heart attack. I conceded long ago that I would not live to see any retirement, and I see no reason to pro-long the misery.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #169
235. I have chronic health issues too
so I know what you mean. I have a few prescriptions refilled, but never have any now testing done. Mostly I research alternative treatments and dietary changes that can help with my symptoms.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #126
232. Try being UNEMPLOYED
I will be 52 on January 6, and I have been unemployed or underemployed for the past year and some months. I resigned from a mega-mortgage lender in August a year ago. I could no longer tolerate that company's efforts to compromise my integrity with pimping their high risk loan programs--which I consistently refused to do the entire time I worked for them, much to my manager's dismay. Since resigning that position, I have been a member of an accelerated program to become a teacher (let's not even begin to discuss that venue...).

I have chronic back pain, and can no longer power walk (used to do four miles a day). I have no idea whether the strange growth on my right shoulder is skin cancer or just a bizarre mole. I know I have carpal tunnel syndrome in my left wrist and possibly degenerative arthritis in my right hip. I haven't had a check-up, a pap smear or a mammogram in over two years.

I pray that I don't need any major medical intervention until AFTER I get my first contract. I try not to feel superfluous or unnecessary as a consequence of this reality, but it's hard.

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #232
236. Been there
I spent most of 2006 unemployed when my major client outsourced my position overseas. I also have carpel tunnel, arthritis, failing eyesight (I'm an illustrator and animator), fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome and some neurological issues. Never had a mammogram in my life and all other exams are things of the past. It's absurd that we have to live this way.

Oh, and please have that "mole" checked out. My dad has been battling skin cancer. Nasty stuff.

:hug:
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
183. Ding! Ding! Ding! You have got the winning insight.
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 03:38 PM by truedelphi
And do you wanna know why every time you turn on a local TV channel, you see ads for the one or two hospitals or insurance plans that operate in your area?

It certainly isn't so they can lure you into buying their program - you already know the one or two programs in your area suck.

Well, the ads are created so that the local hospital(s) and the "local" heatlh insurance plan(s) and their ad revenue can have editorial copntrol over the news media.

Every TV channel and every local newsprint media would be in agreement with us, and shouting each day with a half dozen headlines about the need for Universal Single Payer Health Care, if they were not controlled by needing that ad revenue from the local suck-y hospitals and the "local" sucky health insurance orgs.
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. It's one infuriating, depressing movie, no?
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. The jacket says it's hilarious...
I wasn't laughing much, though. Infuriating is right.
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Ishoutandscream2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
37. I didn't laugh once
Where were the laughs?
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #37
66. Ditto
It was anything but funny.
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MaryRN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #66
226. I cried publicly in the theatre. Wearing my stethoscope.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
137. When it first played in theatres, the marketeers put
together a campaign touting it as a comedy. There was an ad in which people coming out of a theatre were interviewed and one said she couldn't stop laughing. After seeing the movie I realized those had to have been actors because there is nothing funny about the film. Either the ad agency was clueless or they deliberately deceived people in order to get them to go see what is a very sobering documentary.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. Are you ready to ask your government to do your laundry?
LOL
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Maybe just iron my underwear...
:rofl:
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ThatsMyBarack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
151. That ending was the ONE funny part.
Everything else was infuriating. I saw it in the theater and won't be able to watch it again for a loooong time.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. Out of curiosity, does the DVD come with extra footage? eom
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Yes. Haven't got a chance to watch it yet, though. nt
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. Yes. and really good stuff too.
extended interview with Che's daughter and that british x parliamentarian, forget his name - Penn? awesome guy.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. I liked the part about the prison in Norway
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. Tony Benn, he's a legend of the British Left
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Benn

For us, it would be like if Paul Wellstone had lived a nice long life. :-)
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
246. Wonderful, wonderful man
Tony Benn is one of those people who start out as a radical firebrand, terrorising the establishment and end up as one of the grand old men of politics. I believe he is the only man in history to turn down a peerage so he could continue serving as an MP.

He also has the distinction of being the only man to appear with Ali G and get the joke. Briefly, Ali G is a satirical interviewer, designed to be the official voice of the youthful moron. The humour comes from watching politicians trying to find ways of getting out of the interview without wrecking their careers by agreeing with Ali's outrageous remarks. Well, Tony Benn appeared with Ali G and about five minutes into the interview, you can see this look of realisation as he gets the joke and then proceeds to not only agree with Ali on everything but one-up him by making even more outrageous remarks. I think the interview ended with Tony Benn and Ali G agreeing to overfund genetic engineering so every child could live the dream of being born black.
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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
138. Tony Benn
Almost became leader of the Labour Party back in the 70's, but was deemed too left-wing. Sigh.
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
205. SICKO free ...
Moore has stated anyone can watch his movie for free as long as they don't make money off showing it. It's been available on the Internet since day one of it's release. There is no excuse for anyone not seeing it.
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Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. No concrete plans and political lip-service by our candidates are killing the issue.
Unless the Democratic Candidate(read Party included) can come up with a plan before the convention and announce it then, Universsal Health care is a DEAD, DEAD pidgeon for a long long time. We are fucked again.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. We the people need a good old fashioned
REVOLUTION.
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Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. ain't it the truth!
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
98. Particularly when we have candidates touting universal health insurance
and calling it universal healthcare.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
17. I have refused to watch it.
I don't need any more evidence to convince me that we are f*****. I need to see some plans on how to fix this shit.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Buy a copy and take it to your congresscritter...
assholes know we can do this...they are bought and paid for by the medical community.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #20
122. That's not the only reason they don't give a shit
and why they are more concerned with legislation to benefit insurance and pharmaceutical companies as well as the medical community. The major reason beyond being in the pockets of said companies is that they have the best health care plan imaginable, for UNDER $50 a month, with no bullshit about pre-existing conditions, and totally free choice of providers, no worries about coverage, etc., etc., etc. And all on OUR dime, the taxpayers dime, the very people who don't have that same coverage and many of them having no coverage at all, even with major illnesses like cancer, etc.

They don't have to worry about financial ruin or fighting with insurance companies if they or a family member gets cancer or another serious or chronic illness. They don't have to deal with ANY of the bullshit that we do. I wouldn't mind paying the taxes for that if we ALL got it as well; then such taxes would be well worth it. But until THEIR health care gravy train is taken away and they have to deal with what it's like for the rest of us, don't expect anything to change.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #20
127. And why would you think it would be effective if I took it to my Congress-critters?
They are all incumbent Democrats and can't be touched and they know it. Our fine system allows me to vote, but not determine who is running. I can't remember a primary where I had any choice. But hey I got to vote, I should feel privileged. With our current system that allows corporations to buy our representatives we will never fix health care.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #17
84. The Way To Fix Things is Available at
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #17
99. Then you SHOULD watch it. It isn't just a rant against the machine.
It shows how it DOES work in other countries. The implicit statement is, We don't need to re-invent the wheel here - all we have to do is look at France, Canada, Britain, etc., and cherrypick the best from each of them. The system could be up and running in a matter of months.

That's how to fix this shit.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #99
112. Before we can "fix" the health care system we have to get our representatives to listen to us.
We have to eliminate or at least reduce corporate control of our government. Get lobbyists under control. Every day we are losing ground and changing out a president will not fix that. We have to take control of local and state Democratic organizations and dump a whole bunch of incumbents. Institute term limits and have public funded elections. The list is long, but that's how you fix this shit.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
18. Yeah. It makes me really mad, too.
It's the one thing that gets me moderated here on DU. I can't contain my rage when someone starts spewing that revolting right-wing crap about "we can't afford it" when we've spend hundreds of billions killing people across the world.

I. Can't. Stand. It.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Like the guy in the movie said...
if we have the money to kill people, we have the money to help people.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. Step back and ask yourself "Why?"
Why would a popularly elected legislative body not vote to provide universal health care for the citizens of one of the richest (if not the richest) nations in the world?

Answer:



They are not our representatives and haven't been for quite a while. If your name doesn't end with "Inc." or "Corp." then you are persona non grata. Sorry. Bzzzt! Thanks for playing!
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Follow the damned money...
That should be the country's new motto.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #23
46. Spot on, and very clever! nt
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
25. k&r
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
26. I agree with you except for the part that it's
free. It will be very expensive no matter what we do. It just that the money comes from different places. Don't kid yourself that it will be
free...they'll find a way to take it out of our hides by hook or by CROOK.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Well, I mean free at the point of purchase...
SOCIALIZED is what I'm talking about.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. Of course it's not free. But who is "they"?
Medical care costs money. Just as roads, schools, and libraries do. But what makes our medical care so expensive is the additional entirely superfluous layer of insurance company costs.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Plus their pricey prescriptions.
Sorry, I was just being a smart ass.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #31
100. Not to mention the collaboration between them and the big
Pharmaceuticals, and the pharma companies pressuring doctors to prescribe the latest hot thing even if there are older, cheaper, effective alternatives.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #26
51. it's already coming out of our hides
we pay by dying earlier than any other "first" world nation

i think if you pay by DYING that's pretty much the definition of coming out of your hide

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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
167. We outspend the entire rest of the world combined on defense...
That is every other country tallied up all together, and the good ole' USA still spends more. They get government health care, and we get a bloated military industrial complex. Obscene!
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
214. Doesn't have to be expensive
We have socialised healthcare on everything except dentistry here (Britain) and we pay far less than you do.

We pay less than you for drugs too. The medical business has been profiteering off you guys for years, simply because they can.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. sorry dupe
Edited on Sun Dec-30-07 11:08 PM by Auntie Bush
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
30. Why do the French hate America so much!
With their national health care and free nannies and 5 weeks vacation to start and their free college and doctors making house calls and their damn 35hr work week! Evil Frenchies!





Take me in, please? We wont eat much or make trouble.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. I was watching with one of my daughters and asked her
if she was ready to move yet.
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Lugnut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #33
47. My daughter is ready to move.
She'd go to France in a heartbeat. Seeing "Sicko" with me reinforced her desires.
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #33
56. We have already voted in my house
It was unanimous. If 2008 is just going to be between a dem corporate war monger and a rep corporate war monger, we are gone.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #56
192. come on over
we need leftist to fight against our bastard of a President Sarkozy.

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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #30
53. no point - smoking ban
A smoking ban comes into effect in France starting January 2nd. I'm here for my holiday vacation, but haven't been to a bar once.... I need to go in the next two days to enjoy smoking and having a beer at the same time. Maybe this doesn't matter to you, but for me, France is over.... too bad.... I fucking love this place.
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ForeignSpectator Donating Member (970 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #53
68. Are you aware of some irony here? In a thread about lacking health insurance...
...you complain about not being able to smoke... just quit it. A cousin of mine just did, said one morning he was just sick of it, took him a few months of patches or whatever but he did it.

Makes no sense whatsoever. And don't tell me about "taste" and "lifestyle". It's something completely unnatural, it's self destruction.

Google some history of tobacco industry, how they "educated" people to smoke in the first half of last century, the lies they spread. Saw a documentary about it the other day...
Thought to myself I would NEVER want to support such an "industry" with my money AND health.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #68
141. I'm aware of the irony, that's why I posted it - for a laugh
Still, it is sort of how I feel. I'm not going to try to convince people to smoke - it's awful for you, and you shouldn't do it, but I do. As a French woman said about the ban, France should now take "Liberty" out of there moto of "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity". It's not like it was illegal to have no smoking restaurants here before. Still, France is totally awesome, and I think everyone should check it out - some things about it are infuriating to Americans, but some of those same infuriating things are what one can warm up to and begin to love about the country.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:50 PM
Original message
this is about the health
of people working in the restaurants. In more and more coffeehouses in the Netherlands there are seperate smoking rooms where the coffeehouse workers do not breath in the smoke all day long.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
199. I think that's a great idea - it's just expensive for the owners/employers
I think if governments are gung-ho for these smoking bans, they ought subsidize construction of smoking rooms or something. Apparently that will be an option in France. In California I know of one bar/music venue that has a separate ventilated smoking room because of some grandfather clause. I'm also skeptical of people saying that it's for employees' health (though it may not hurt), I feel that these things are too often passed out of self-righteousness to shame a minority that a majority finds distasteful. Any and all health arguments can be bandied about, but I'm not buying it - I didn't start smoking until I was an adult, I enjoy smoking, and I don't want to quit. I really don't see any harm in a bar or cafe wanting to serve me in what many agree is a comfortable environment.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #53
193. France is still great
to live in. I do, however, go to the Netherlands to be able to smoke what I like smoking in cafs. If only the Socialists would have won the presidential elections, they wanted to legalize.....
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #193
198. I've never been to the Netherlands, but I might go this year
I could care less about drugs, but I have friends who live there who tell me I'd really like the place. If it's anything like France, I'd like it - and most Dutch speak English, which is great for a nincompoop like me who can't get beyond being able to buy cigarettes and order food and drinks in any foreign language.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #198
212. museums
if you go in the spring check out the keukenhof garden
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #212
231. thanks - I'll try to remember that name, since I may be there this spring or summer n/t
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
35. Funny how that movie has that impact on people.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
39. Dennis Kucinich - single payer, not for profit health care...
And you all want to vote for somebody else?
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
40. Dude!
:thumbsup:

That's what I been talkin' 'bout.

I'm glad you're pissed off. Welcome to the club.

FREE (paid-for-by-taxes) HEALTH CARE FOR ALL.

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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #40
60. Hey, Steve...
whassup? Yeah, I'm going to act on this pent up frustration, and that is a good thing.
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blondie58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
41. I think that this should be a priority for this country
getting a single payer health insurance for everyone. Someone here at DU had compiled the salaries of the CEO's of the various healthcare companies recently. I wish that I had bookmarked it, as I can't find it. But it was astronomical. One CEO made 16 BILLION dollars per year for a salary. There were many others not quite as generous, but still way too generous. We need to get profit and the insurance companies out of health care.
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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #41
58. "One CEO made 16 BILLION dollars per year for a salary."
Sorry, I simply don't believe you.

Better find that link...
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blondie58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #58
87. well, no luck- does anyone know of this posting
I am probably wrong. I just remember it being an astronomical amount. Does anyone else remember reading the list that someone had compiled of their salaries? When I have time I may have to do some research myself. I took a quick look on the web and most of the info out there was old, from the late 90's. I did find this http://www.outcrybookreview.com/HospitalMishaps.htm from 1995, that stated that some CEO's made a much as 15 MILLION dollars per year. Irregardless, that is part of the high cost of health care, these obscene salaries that the CEO's make.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #41
104. IIRC, he was WORTH 16 billion. Salary of $100 million, or something
like that. Plus benefits.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
42. K & R. nt.
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cutlassmama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
43. k and fucking r!!! n/t
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
44. I Know how you feel. F.U.H.C. is what we need now.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
48. Why would anyone vote for someone other than Kucinich?
After I saw that movie, that was my question.

Still is.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
49. Amen
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 01:27 AM by proud patriot
The only debt my family has currently is about 2000.00 in Medical bills ..

after seeing Sicko ... I felt a bit of envy toward others nations .

It infuriated me that we Americans are being laughed at .

We must do better for our citizens .
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
50. And, while you're at it, stop saying "universal"! It's SINGLE-PAYER! nt
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #50
61. Good point. nt
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #50
108. There is no discrepancy between 'universal' and 'single-payer'.
Universal speaks to who is covered; single payer speaks to who pays.

DK's plan is "universal, single-payer".
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #108
118. You've described the discrepancy.
"Universal" healthcare can mean all kinds of different things, including forcing people to buy insurance from private companies. Which is what we don't want.

Thus, say single-payer.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #118
136. I think we are victims of Hillary's semantics of universal healthcare -
meaning universal health insurance, which is what she (and some others) advocate. She continues to insist that what she offers is universal healthcare, when it is NOT. She is deliberately confusing the message. The result of that message is that those who support her plan support keeping private insurance in the system and, worse, mandating their use. I'm sure it is just a coincidence that she has received more contributions than any other candidate from the pharma/medical/insurance industries.

We must continually fight the notion that universal healthcare = universal health insurance.

Universal healthcare simply means everybody gets it, regardless. Single-payer specifies that what they are getting is NOT private insurance. Universal single-payer could be considered redundant, but as it is Medicare is, in effect, single-payer without being universal.

Thus, universal single-payer healthcare. IOW, Dennis' plan.

I really think a lot of this involves clarifying our definitions. For decades, the republicans have twisted the polity to their will by twisting definitions to suit their purpose. One of the biggest problems I have with Hillary is her penchant to do the same - calling universal mandated insurance "universal healthcare", for one. It was just such playing with definitions that gave us the warped, pro-pharma prescription bill a couple years ago (with the backing of the AARP insurance companies).
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #50
174. To be more precise, it's
"single-payer, not-for-profit."
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
52. K&R 40
My friend and I wanted to see it, but it went out of the theaters before we could get together. I hope to see it soon. Great rant, and it's for a great reason! rock on and amen!
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. If you're anything like me...
... you'll cry when you watch the movie. Then maybe you'll remove your Edwards avatar and vote for Kucinich. This really is the single most important issue in our country - it will determine if we are even to remain a first world nation, IMO.
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #54
116. I did.
I bawled. Then I went in the bathroom and threw up. I have MS, and horrific endometriosis. I'm afraid that as I age either one or both of these are going to cost us a mint.

The MS has been manageable so far with Betaseron, but the mail order pharmacy we were on before was a lot cheaper. It was $80 copay for a 90 day supply. The new one told me the other day that they don't DO 90 day, only 30. And they were charging $75 copay for 30 days. Something stinks there. And everyone insisted that was the correct amount.

Thank God reprehensor is Canadian, we still have an out. But I need to stay here just a little longer to get some more research done for my book. Then I think we'll hotfoot it out of here.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #116
139. good thing you can get out - lots of people, unfortunately, have to rely on being lucky
My quasi-inlaws (the lady and I aren't really married), are fairly well off and have good insurance, but they'd be dead in the water if it weren't for the VA supplementing what they can afford, because 'Dad' has had a heart transplant and needs medications (much like you do, I would guess) for the rest of his life. Too bad about your skyrocketing prescription charges (thank god I'm healthy - I'm so proud to be getting by now with a job that I love - and illness would wipe me out), but it seems like you can make it happen, if only barely. That's the thing, isn't? They think these amounts are "correct" because people will still pay them, by hook or crook. Capitalism has become so entrenched, that to not make a profit seems to many to be crazy.... sweet lord.
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #139
166. Thank your lucky stars.
Your health can change in an instant.

2005 was the magic year for me. I'd barely been sick a day in my life-- had pneumonia in 1990, and that was as sick as I'd ever been.

March 2005, I had horrific stomach pain on Friday, and by midnight Saturday I was in emergency surgery having an ovary removed because of a ruptured chocolate ovary (endometrial tisue caused a growth around it and then burst into my abdomen). I'd never had a symptom of endo in my life, but when it did finally decide to show itself, it was nasty.

Only a mere month and a half after that, the weird numbness began all over, and I ended up having a "cramp" in my spinal cord, which caused a nasty incident where my whole left side felt electrifed, going hot, then numb, then my arm pulling up in a claw next to my body. An MRI revealed what it was.

I kid with people that my warranty expired that year, but it really was the truth. Everybody starts having problems with something after a certain age. You just have to hope yours waits as long as possible to manifest itself, whatever it is.

To avoid my issues with immune system problems STOP DRINKING DIET SODA! Equal, Splenda, and MSG are the big 3 to avoid. They are NEUROTOXINS! Do not ingest them!!! Look up "excitotoxins" on the internet, and you'll see what I mean.

Take care of yourself.
fsc
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #54
168. No, it too is a symptom.
Of the Class War.

And even if every DUer voted for Dennis, he still wouldn't win. Not the primaries, not the GE. Then where would we be?
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #168
175. I don't know, but I know that I don't like politics are usual, and that could be changed - nt
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
55. Just finally watched it yesterday
And I'm ready for a revolution!
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #55
62. Revolution is the word. nt
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ScooterFibby Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
57. Edwards has a plan that moves us toward single-payer

New Competition for Private Insurers: The Edwards plan creates new choices for American families. The new Health Care Markets will be available to everyone who does not get comparable insurance from their jobs or a public program and to employers who choose to join rather than offer their own insurance plans. Families and individuals will choose the plan that works best for them. The markets will include a new public plan similar to Medicare. If enough people choose the public plan, then the US will evolve towards a single-payer plan. As a result, private insurers will face new rules and competitive pressures to hold down their costs and deliver better coverage.


Imagine trying to start a single-payer system from scratch, while telling multi-billion dollar health care and insurance industry they are toast. Do you think they would not fight tooth and nail for survival?

Edwards has a smart plan, and if enough companies and individuals opt for the public plan, we get to single-payer with a private insurance option.

Could be the best of both worlds... and one that the industry could live with.
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ForeignSpectator Donating Member (970 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #57
67. If I am not mistaken, that private insurance option would result in 2 class medicine...
1st class for those who have it, the "leftovers" for those who don't. But you're right, doing it all from scratch would be very difficult. However, you'd have to get rid of that private insurance option in the long run... That is something that conservatives in some European countries defend to stay while it created a 2-class medical system.

Oh and to find a solution "that the industry could live with" is the wrong motivation to start with, imo. They have "prospered" taking lives long enough now.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #67
147. Medicare isn't second class medicine
Edwards plan allows people to choose between private insurance and public health coverage programs like Medicare.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #147
184. Yeah, but once you are taking people out of the poor, the poor isn't as successful ---
and then, when the insurance companies have a problem with those people, they come back to the Medicare plan in worse health!

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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #147
216. it's either a single payer, or 300 million...
the concept of 'medicare' hinges entirely upon the idea that the suppliers of services can't sell to competing payers, since there's only one payer. End of debate... And one payer removes the profiteering motive ...after a couple generations, the government knows what everything costs, knows what makes fair rewards for the suppliers, knows what it cost to make the drugs etc, iow the very thing that pisses off the patient in US for-profit system can't happen, because even the poorest most illiterate, foolish Canadian patient gets represented by people who also speak for the most powerful, most knowlegable. This aspect (that top flight professionals represent YOU, regardless of who you are, as routine) and gets you the best deal possible, is probably the thing that utterly enrages the pigs. and there's something wonderful about that...another thing peculiar to Canada is that, being next door to USA, huge numbers of americans somehow get serviced in Canada (humans being crafty fukkers) and wealthy Canadians spend money in US for treatment etc, money which counts as pure loss to Canada system- but despite this, and despite years of anti-insurance program propaganda poisoning opinions against the system, the Canadian system somehow STILL WORKS!
It would work alot better if US also went single payer (something noone dares mention)
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #216
234. Single payer is my dream, too
Lets hope we make it soon. But Edwards plan is the closest we will come.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #67
185. Any privatizing of Medicare or "means testing" will result in second class
status for some recepients --- and a "welfare" system of medical care ---
which is what they are trying to do ---

Little by little --- and as fast as possible --

If they destroy Social Security --- and they're trying like hell! ---
you will never get it back ---

Neither will you be able to recover Medicare ---

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maxanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #57
86. or maybe
it could be that Mr. Two Americas gives us Two Health Care Systems - one for the rich and one for the poor.

It's a smart system for pandering to corporate interests. It's not a smart system for taking care of people.

Do we want single payer now, or do we want to wait for another 20 years or more? If we don't take radical action, we'll continue
to be stuck in the holding pattern of "doing it incrementally" which is another way of saying "doing NOTHING."
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #57
110. I really don't care what the health insurance industry thinks
They kill people with their bean-counting and destroy countless other lives. Kill them.

They have screwed so many people out of basic healthcare that I do not care if they all get pink slips and are told to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. That s about as much courtesy as we should show them.

They can "live with" nothing, as far as I'm concerned. The grunts that work for them can be transferrd over to civil-service jobs for single payer and the CEOs can go jump off a bridge.
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 05:21 AM
Response to Original message
59. 5 cent meds in Cuba and those Cuban fireman standing at attention made me weep.
Don't they know we're enemies? :cry:
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. I know. nt
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
64. Yeah, that's how I felt after I watched SICKO...nt
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Rene Donating Member (758 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
65. We need a Democrat President and more control in Congress
to get approprite Med care/coverage laws passed.
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
69. Nothing is free - Universal Healthcare can be single payer but it still costs $$$
Just a heads up.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. I think when people use the term "free" they mean you go to the doctor,
hand them your card and don't have to part with cash at the time of service or worry about a bill that will wipe you out. Everybody would have the card and, of course, it would be paid for by some form of taxation. It makes so much sense and it would simplify the healthcare payment system which, by itself, would save a mountain of money.
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blondie58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #69
93. yeah, but we alrady pay through the nose
I am a federal employee, so I have decent benefits, but every year, I have to pay more and more for my insurance- and less is covered. I have a medical condition that requires periodic MRI's and my co-pay is now up to $200. I dread it when my neurologist says that I need one, finding an extra $200 in my budget is tough. And then there is the dental. I have a crown issue going on now that will cost me around $1600- with the insurance that the dentist offers. If we could get the profits out of healthcare, we could all be covered.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #69
176. What $$$?
I live in Canada and I pay a grand total of $0.00 for my healthcare.

Mind you, our taxes are slightly higher than yours to pay for it, but in terms of out-of-pocket expenses, we're FAR, FAR ahead.

Once you take the massive PROFIT out of the system, you'll find out that health care really doesn't have to be expensive at all.
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DeeDeeNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
70. The movie should be required watching for all candidates
Not to mention every Congressperson too. Oh wait - they have their own excellent health care for life, so they don't have to worry.


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KarenS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
72. Michael Moore's movies and books
have the same effect on me,,,, That man is going to cause me to have a heart attack or stroke!!! I gave up trying to read "Stupid White Men",,,,,

Anyway,,,, we received Sicko as a Christmas gift from our EMT son and watched it yesterday afternoon with him and Daughter who is going to school to be a Nurse,,,, damn!! It had a huge impact on them as well,,,, The scene that caused the most noise here was the cashier in the British Hospital reimbursing folks for their transportation expenses!!
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #72
78. That was something else! nt
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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
73. Congress
They have health coverage and they also do not get drug tested.

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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
74. I'm a working class union man, and I couldn't have said it better.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #74
80. Kudos to you...
my Dad is a retired Teamster! :patriot:
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #80
154. Same, retired teamster living on modest (can anybody say) pension.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #154
155. Do you remember the Mason-Dixon Trucking Lines?
My dad was union. My mom was management. That made for some interesting times during the Teamster strikes.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #155
178. Yes I do remember Mason-Dixon.
I was born, raised, and lived in Chgo area for 54 yrs until I retired and moved to Arkansas. I moved here mainly because of cost of EVERYTHING down here. I am 61 now and was a Teamster union member for more than 30 yrs. The majority of truck lines left today are NON-UNION. I worked for C-F for my last 16 yrs of work and they were one of the "big ones". They went broke almost a year to the day after I retired in 2001. What if the percentage of union jobs in the US today? Last I looked it was something like 13% and most of those are in various government areas. A really sad fucking state of affairs.
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Blue Gardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
75. A Tax on Imports to pay for health care
Is still the best idea I've heard. Why wouldn't it work?
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
76. Standing ovation! Clap!Clap!Clap! K&R
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Canadiana Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
77. Yea I'm Canadian
and I can't believe people are just now waking up to how ABSOLUTELY MIND NUMBINGLY INSANE it is that you guys have to PAY for health care...it's...unbelievable. Immoral. I dont understand how it happened.

Actually, I kind of do. I think that not only does it make HMOs millions, but its a huge part of the culture of fear in the United States. Maybe even the biggest part. I cant imagine how much anxiety I would have if not only did I have to worry about actually being sick...but I had to worry about being treated and paying as well. Be afraid of terror, be afriad of losing your house, be afraid of getting sick, be afraid of going to the doctor...

PS all that shit propaganda Fox et al spew about our "socialized" system is obviously COMPLETE crap. Please, ask me anything about wait times, service etc.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #77
197. Come on be real
I was born in Kingston, Ontario in 1966 and lived in Victoria, BC until I was 26 and then from 30-34, finally moving to the US in 2001. I strongly support our nation's health care system (Canada's, not the US's, which really does suck). But let's not kid ourselves.

My 72 year old father waited 9 months to have his carotid arteries cleared out. My best friend's father was denied a kidney transplant. Another friend's grandmother was on a waiting list for hip surgery until she died.

I have no problem with that, but let's not mislead the Americans. The Canadian system uses wait lists to ration health care to the elderly. Good thing, is what I say. For example... here in America, my wife's 89 year old grandmother had a double hip replacement in the last year of her life. What a senseless waste of money.

Do you really think that Americans would tolerate granny being on a two year wait list for a new set of hips? Do you really think all these vain boomers would tolerate being told that the sun doesn't shine out of their withered butts and that they're not getting a new kidney?

Yes, the US system is broken. My newborn son managed to earn us $8k in bills (after insurance paid an additional $42k) for 11 days in NICU back in November. I hate the US system and would gladly trade it over to our system, but.... do you honestly think that Americans would be able to cope with Canada's system?
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Canadiana Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #197
247. This is a very good question
Sidenote: I lived in kingston for a long time!! and I work in health care. In Kingston I think KGH needs to simply have more funds --as do pretty much all hospitals in Canada. Also there are lots of afterhours clinics there, and so even if you don't have a GP or your doc cant see you you can get seen that day by a doctor. Period.

But back to the topic -- could the US handle it? I don't know. I don't think most people in the US (or Canada probably..but atleast we see we have a good thing as far as health care goes) can grasp the complicated moral, ethical and economical factors of running a health care system.

For example, my republican uncle in the United states does not want our "socialized health care system". Yet he went to the ER one day recently and had to wait 5 hours to be seen in their wonderful private system!! What if you don't have health insurance and you get lukemia...chemo is damn expensive and a 2 year course can cost in the millions. People just dont want to think about the complexities of the problems with the system.

This post was kind of unfocused. Basically I agree with you -- the United States has to get out of the "everybody for themselves" mentality before a health care system like ours could work. I don't think they are there yet.
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Truthy Nessy Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
79. I'm curious about myself and AMerican Medical insurance
I'm American born and came to Canada as a refugee in 1969. I am now a Canadian citizen.

My mom keeps asking me to come back and live but I tell her I couldn't possibly afford the health care insurance or the doctor /hospital extra charges.

My son and husband both died of cancers here in 99 and 01. Their treatments cost millions of dollars from 3 brain surgeries, chemos, radiation treatments, surgery for my husband and chemo and radiation treatments as well as stem cell transplant. meds and intensive care, and finally both had palliative care . IT costs us nothing!
I also was treated at same time for fybromyalgia and depression. I had meds and therapy No cost to me.

I was able to go on without med bills after their deaths.


How much would a 60 year old woman with bone loss, thyroid and bladder meds have to pay a year for medical insurance in the USA?...Any idea?

I've told my relatives in the states to see SICKO but I am afraid they are all of the DEER HUNTING WITH JESUS mindset. They are "patriotic" and will not criticize the American government.
They are ticked off at me I guess because everything I said would happen has happened.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #79
82. Are you fucking kidding me?
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 09:19 AM by HamdenRice
No snark intended! Stay in Canada! I don't have much experience in individual plans, but I can certainly see the insurance costing you at least $15,000 per year (at least $1,000 plus per month).

Others can probably give you a more accurate estimate.

And if you get sick, they'll do every thing possible not to pay! All your existing conditions would be excluded and therefore not covered. And if you get any illness that you might reasonably have predicted, it will probably also be excluded.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #79
85. I'm not quite 60 yet, but I have no major health problems, and
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 09:43 AM by Lydia Leftcoast
the BEST deal I can get in Minnesota, which is supposed to be the BEST state for insurance, is a $5,000 deductible at $210 per month. Doesn't sound TOO bad--except that the company keeps telling me I'm getting the PREFERRED rate. I shudder to think what would happen to my premiums if I ever really got sick.

I used to have a $1000 deductible, but then the price for that shot through the roof.

I recommend staying in Canada and having the relatives visit you or you visit them.

By the way, I supported Kucinich in the primaries last time and will do so again this time, because he's solid on my two main issues, health care and the Iraq War.
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EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
81. I know how you feel, felt pissed as well after watching it. I think what
pisses me off the most is the American people who continue to allow this to happen. WTF does it take to get the information out to them to make them take action?

Look at the girl who was denied the kidney transplant just the other day.

Americans are getting what they deserve in a lot of cases and the unfortunate result of that is all the others such as us that suffer because of their doing nothing.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
83. I Hope You're Pissed Off Enough to Vote Kucinich!
I think after watching SICKO it really becomes clear which candidate is an advocate of the people, and which candidates are advocates for corporate and self interests. FOrget who the media and the talking heads tell you to vote for...they have interests in the election that do not reflect your own. Rather, vote your best interests by standing with the Kucinich campaign and really STICK IT TO THE CONTROLLED MEDIA.

Kucinich 08...Right Then...Right Now...Right For America :patriot:
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
89. I'll second that rant
Well, ok, I'm 67th-ing that rant, but whose counting. :hi:
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
90. Anger.... Vision Problems....
sorry, we can't treat you.
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Jokinomx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
91. Healthcare in America is our only true crisis.
That is how I feel about this issue. It should be the #1 issue for all Americans.

K & R
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
92. Good content, lousy delivery - are the obscenities REALLY necessary?
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #92
95. Letting off the steam helps my blood pressure.
The first so-called "obscenity" was in the subject line. If you don't like reading them, then was it really necessary to open the thread?
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #95
130. This isn't the place for it - sit in your bathroom and scream obscentities
or at least hide them in your post, NOT the subject. By putting them in your subject you expose people to them whether they like it or not.

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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #130
142. You still didn't have to open the thread.
Bye, now.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #142
164. But I still couldn't avoid seeing:
"I'm so fucking pissed off right now" plastered across my screen, whether I read the post or not!!!! Use a little class and discretion, ok?
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #164
210. i don't have a problem with obscenities
it's just OUTRAGE about an OBSCENE reality.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #164
238. But, you could have avoided giving the lecture.
It did no good.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-03-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #238
252. Not in this case but
maybe it will make other obscene posters in the future think twice before posting their garbage.
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meowomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #92
97. FUCK FUCK FUCK
It's just a word
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #97
131. It's just a word that some people find offensive.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #92
101. You don't make the rules here. Get used to it. Welcome to DU. n/t
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #101
102. delete
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 10:27 AM by Texas Explorer
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #92
109. I have thought about asking the mods about a voluntary subject-header ban on nasties...
I am thinking that, perhaps, DU might be picked up by more search engines and such if it were a little more "work safe", wherein we could agree to at least leave the obscenities out of the subject headers. (I've been guilty of such practices myself, mind you, at times when I've been angry.)

But there needs to be a consensus among participants here before such a policy should ever go down, methinks. This is a place where people feel free to let loose, and such freedom should not be dampened in any way without careful consideration... even when it's for such common-sense reasons as accessibility to the outside world.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #109
111. Sometimes I give curse words a second thought and I don't
use them. But, like you, when I am angry and I post immediately, I post as if I were talking to a friend. I am in the moment and though I do think about the use of socially questionable language, it's usually a passing thought.

Free expression is important, though it can get rough around the edges. My take is that if someone cannot deal with foul language or bad words, they have the option to move on. Those who are offended by this language must remember that they are just as entitled to free expression as those who offend them.

As for your ban in subject lines, I have to respectfully disagree, though I would join you in urging restraint with their use in the subject line.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #111
124. I would like to consider not a ban on subject line profanity, but a polite request from the mods.
If this would make the site more likely to be considered "work safe" and carried by more search engines (i.e., when a "moderately safe" search is enabled in Google).

I don't really want a ban. I just want to see if we might increase our reach by some modest restraint in a specific place (the subject header.)
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #124
163. We should consider a new person opening the DU website
How would you feel if you just heard about this website and logged on, seeing the first "Greatest Thread" right smack in the middle of the screen, reading:

"I'm so fucking pissed off right now, I can't see straight...DAMMIT..."

Not really a way to encourage repeat visits, huh?
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #163
191. That's not so bothersome to me.
I'm really more interested in ensuring that the "alarm words" don't keep DU from turning up in google searches; I also want to see DU in the google and yahoo news listings along with such knuckle-dragging sites as Redstate and Free Republic when you (say) go search for news items about a particular topic.

From what I understand, if there's too much blatant profanity, particularly in the subject headers, those search engines will not list such references.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
103. Gravy is good.
Gravy is worthy of being sucked by humans (in moderation, of course).

Please do not trash gravy's good name by linking it to profit driven health insurance.

Thank you.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #103
148. Yes, I see, but...
gravy should not be sucked. :rofl:
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
105. Uhh, nothing is free.....
so how would you suggest it gets paid for?
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Franc_Lee Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
106. sICKO tidbit> interesting how US. M$M got us to hate France for not backing Bush Iraq war invasion..
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
107. Rest in peace, dear
Nataline.

At 17-year-old Nataline Sarkisyan's funeral Friday, no one mentioned the insurance company that denied a potentially life-saving liver transplant and then reversed the decision hours before the girl died.

Instead, mourners remembered Nataline as an optimist, who loved to dance ballet and tap and never complained about the leukemia she was battling. Nataline lost her three-year fight with the bone marrow cancer on Dec. 20.

-snip-
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
113. The one thing that I'm worried about is where the profit oriented health care industry,
including big pharma, collides with "health care for all". It's one thing to provide basic quality health care for all, but quite another to provide health care that our government (and we) can afford.

And if folks don't like when a patient doesn't get a transplant now, just wait until such coverage is denied by a universal single-payer program, or the papers (and fox news) start filling up with this or that immigrant getting this $2M procedure, or this or that "person" (immigrant) ripping off the system for $2M. The fallout that will ensue could be enough to bring down the party in power. That is, the democrats.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
114. Not free - we pay for universal care with our taxes and use it responsibly. (n/t)
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #114
150. Yes, I know...
I used the word to talk about "point of purchase."
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
115. GOP...PRO CHEAP LABOR... AND THAT IS THE END OF IT
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Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
117. K&R.
You tell it like it is.

:applause:

'Sicko' should carry a warning on the DVD cover.

Warning- watching this movie may cause unmitigated
rage!
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
119. The AMA has been a major obstacle
to every single reform measure that has ever benefitted most citizens. Remember, it was only after they finally dropped their organized opposition to Medicare and Medicaid that those were finally able to be enacted and implemented. And why did they finally drop their many years of opposition to those extremely beneficial programs that have been a lifeline for millions of people, especially older Americans who would have suffered a lot more without it? One simple word. MONEY. That's right, MONEY. They finally realized they'd actually get much more money, and reliably and steadily, with those two programs than without them. And they HAVE, believe me, especially with Medicare.

Since, frankly, their main concern now, as it has always been, is money, what we need to do is tailor our message to that, as was finally learned with Medicare and Medicaid. Once those working for the enactment of those programs changed their message to show the AMA how their income and patient base would actually be greatly increased, that's when they changed their tune and finally not only dropped their opposition, but worked for the passage of the legislation enacting them. So THAT is EXACTLY what we need to do in this instance. And, honestly, most doctors HATE insurance companies for many of the same reasons that we do. They hate the paperwork, the extra expense in billing departments, and they especially hate that medically untrained bean counters on the dole of the insurance companies are the ones making medical decisions about coverage and they HATE having to deal with such bean counters and they HATE seeing their patients go without the treatments they've ordered and that they know are necessary because of said medically untrained bean counters.

But most of all, they hate the extra expense of paperwork, billing and then having to give a cut to collection agencies when they sic those bloodsuckers on people who can't afford their treatments. So, show them how they wouldn't have to deal with most of that, how a single payer system would cut out all that bullshit, show them how much more money they'd actually be able to make and keep, and hand they may very well jump on the bandwagon. It's sad that concern for patients doesn't often come first with them, as it should, and it's sad that we have to appeal to their pocketbooks first before anything else, but that's the way it is. That's how it was with Medicare and Medicaid, and that's what we need to do now. Our very lives depend on it, especially as we get older.

And, speaking as someone who's been a paralegal for nearly fourteen years, I can honestly say that the really bad rap that attorneys get when it comes to money is largely undeserved. Whereas it's very deserved where doctors are concerned, and yet doctors don't get nearly the bad rap regarding greed and money that they should.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
125. k&r
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DarleenMB Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
128. Universal gov't sponsored health care is NOT
the answer.

What needs to be done is REregulation of the insurance industry and to remove ALL health care from the hands of private industry.

Back in the '70's I paid about $5 a month for health insurance and I was totally covered for EVERYthing. I had an appendectomy. Full coverage. I had knee surgery. Full coverage.

Then Reagan was elected and the decline began. government regulations were removed and suddenly health insurance was a for profit industry. HMO's took over county and city hospitals.

And even WITH decent health insurance we wound up over ten grand in debt because our carrier kept denying a huge portion of our bills and then only paying 80% of what they deemed was "appropriate."

We need to stop allowing private corporations to control the government. Period.

Demanding government health insurance will not fix this problem. It will only make it worse.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #128
149. Medicare works very well
If you think private health insurance AND govt programs like Medicare are bad, what do you propose for a solution?
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #128
207. I See No Benefit of Having a For-Profit Insurance
Company middleman between me and my doctor making decisions as to what is covered and what isn't. It's inconceivable exactly what the upside of an Insurance Middleman who's primary function is to increase company dividends to make investors happy through denying coverage to it's policyholders wherever and whenever possible. Such a vampiric system is so incredulous that most progressive countries have abandoned it in favor of programs such as HR 676 sponsored by Congressman Kucinich that benefits ALL their people.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
133. Front page story yesterday's LA Times: 12 year old
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 11:52 AM by LibDemAlways
boy with severe brain damage functions at the level of a 4-month-old. Since infancy, Blue Cross has been paying for full time at home nursing care. This year Blue Cross pulled the care, determining it's no longer "necessary." Parents are suing the fucking company. The story alluded to many people now fighting back when denied coverage. In this boy's case, Medi-Cal, the state insurer of last resort, is currently paying for the care.

Think of the tremendous hardship involved in having a helpless 12-year-old at home who must be cared for like an infant, and then have that care yanked by bureaucrats only interested in the bottom line.

My mailman, an evangelical conservative, told me recently that he's voting Dem next year because "we have to do something about health care in this country. It ought to be a basic right." This is an issue that will resonate with voters across the spectrum. I hope to God it's the winning issue and finally at last we join the rest of the countries that actually take care of the health needs of their citizens.
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sk8rrobert2 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
134. Wat you have anger and vision problems...
Sorry it turns out when you were 7 you got angry when your sister poked you in the eye both of these are pre-existing conditions and can't be covered.............
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #134
152. Uh,
I don't have a sister. :rofl:

I get your drift, though. :hi:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
135. I don't like the use of the term "free" in this context
It's not accurate.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
140. Kicking 'cause I can. If I were a techno-wizard.. I would interrupt all
programming with a special showing of SICKO on All venues, for a 24 hour period, every week.. until we had this straightened out.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
143. The only mandated plan that works
is one that requires people to buy into Medicare or other govt health coverage program and subsidizes the cost if they can't afford it.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
144. Single Payer not "Universal". People get confused over the terms.
If we say exactly what most of us mean, Single Payer, then we can get the private insurance sharks out of healthcare forever.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
145. If this country can afford to piss away 1.3 Trillion
on a pointless War, this country can afford free, single-payer heath care for all citizens.

Health care is money well spent.
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
146. All elected political representatives and every government employee
should forego their insurance - as it is paid by the taxpayers - they have us working for them and they do not represent us -

all of them should try to be self- or under- employed and get healthcare.

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Frogger Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #146
249. you caught on to that, huh?
And you are absolutely correct.

It's been that way for many, many years.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
153. I just finally watched Spike Lee's "When the Levees Broke" the other night and couldn't
sleep-I was so flustered with anger!

IMPEACH THE BASTARDS!
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #153
156. I'll have to calm down before I watch that one. nt
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
158. I like the socialized medicine I receive from the VA. It is means tested,
and affordable for all. If you don't use the system, it costs nothing. I only pay $8 for my prescriptions, everything else is free.

My glasses did cost me $148, but that is a hell of a lot better than $400- $500 for the trifocals I use.



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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
159. isn't it what Leeland Eisenberg want?
A MAN who took hostages in a Hillary Clinton campaign office had demanded to speak to the presidential candidate about access to mental health care...

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?a...
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TexasBushwhacker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
160. And remember, Sicko is about people WITH insurance!
That's what is so stunning about it. As much as people talk about how much it will cost, I would think that taking the profit motive out of the mix would save enough to cover it. Not to mention the cost of treating uninsured people in emergency rooms for non-emergency ailments - we all pay for that. Think of the cost in real dollars of lost productivity and permanent disability because people can get the care they need WHEN THEY NEED IT. I don't know of anyone who has surgery for fun. People taking multiple prescriptions of non-generic drugs are because their doctors write the scripts for stuff that big pharma pushes.

Make it like Medicare - everyone pays. Let the health insurance companies administrate it (as they do Medicare) and sell supplemental policies. It should be our national shame that every developed country on the planet has universal health care except for the US, and tieing health insurance to your employer makes about as much sense and tieing your auto insurance to them. I can assure you that most, if not all, employers would love to get out of the health insurance administration business. Most doctors hate dealing with insurance companies, and doctors, hospitals and drug companies would all make more money IF EVERYONE WAS COVERED.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
162. K&R #100 n/t
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
165. K&R
My letter to my representative regarding universal health care follows.

Dear Congressman Marshall:

The purpose of this letter is to urge you to support universal, single-payer health care for all Americans. My wife and I, part of the 50 million Americans who are without health insurance, live every day in fear of illness. After watching Michael Moore's Sicko, it has become clear to us that Americans are the laughingstock of the civilized world for refusing to insist on single-payer, socialized health care. Yes, the insurance industry is an evil, corrupt monolith of which we all live in fear, you included, but we urge you to do the right thing, for the benefit of your own people, and support a single-payer health care system for all Americans. Don't believe the right-wing propaganda about socialized medicine. The system works, and that's why not a single country that has adopted socialized medicine has ever gotten rid of it. The people love it.

Thank you for your attention to this matter and for your continued service to our district and the American people.

Sincerely,


Like the OP, I was angry after seeing Sicko, and I had to do something.

-Laelth
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
170. If you haven't seen "Sicko" then you don't have a viable opinion on health care
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proud_Kucitizen Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
171. main argument of Repugs to not support it
Most Repugs I talk to about it seem to be under the assumption that universal health care means long lines to get care. They all say they've talked to people in one of the countries with socialized medicine and they hate their own system.

My in-laws said they knew someone who came here from France to get care because they didn't want to wait months to get surgery in their own country. I told them this sounded ridiculous to me since it was obviously an elective surgery and that person would either have to be damn stupid or wealthy which is one of the groups they were saying could buy a better place in line and therefore making the wait times even worse for everyone else.

But I guess as Michael Moore says you get shorter lines when you knock 50 million people off the line. Unfortunately, Repugs are not going to feel a slight bit guilty even if some of those people are children. They just don't care even my mother in law who you would think from talking to her that she might have compassion but doesn't.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #171
188. Strange though how people in those countries are healthier than we are ---
and don't want anything to do with privatized systems ---

Of course, as much as possible, the right-wing in their country will try to starve their systems ---


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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
172. Latest Sicko news from Michael's website
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
173. what i don't get
ok, I do get it - it is purely Nixon's henchmen getting obscenely rich fighting it.

But what I started to write was

is why people get so hung up over the very concept of publicly-funded healthcare but don't blink at publicly-funded roads, education, army, navy, air force, marines, EPA, FDA, state and local police, fire departments...

Why does it make perfect sense to tax us to protect our health from invading armies, polluted waters, untested medicines, criminal assault, wildfire, etc., etc., but NOT make sense to tax us to fix the damage when one of those protections fails?

If you took all the healthcare costs precipitated by auto accidents, assaults, substance abuse, environmental hazards and said "well, yeah, they are a logical extension of what we already do" and added costs due to aging (already covered - medicare), workplace accidents (workmen's comp), you're no left with much. Common adult/childhood illnesses, other accidents like my bike accident broken collarbone, and some biggies like childhood leukemia, diabetes, heart disease - a bunch of others with huge costs that frequently bankrupt families and put them on guess what? Medicaid. Ultimately, one way or the other, we as a society pay ALL the medical bills. Its just a matter of whether to do so efficiently without excessive administrative costs and obscene profits, or to maintain the status quo. If the former, there will be savings overall both in the admin/profit arean and in delivering service earlier, generally reducing lifecycle cost of an episode of illness.

It is ultimately a very simple argument to make. Single payer. Managed efficiently. Treat the US population as if it were the workforce (it is) of a giant corporation (the US) that needed to be kept as healthy and productive as possible to stay competitive. Tackle that job efficiently and intelligently. No business in its right mind would opt for the idiocy we have now. Even people who are not working productively, as long as they are alive, need to be kept healthy as efficiently as possible. Unless you are ready to just say "let 'em die" (while espousing your so-called pro-life stance, no doubt) then from a purely pragmatic point of view, disregarding any compassion, in makes sense to provide the care without fooling with administrative overhead.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
177. yes but then BIG PHARMA and INSURANCE would not send you $$$$
have you seen who gets the most from the HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY ?

:grr:

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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
180. It is a crime to let people die when you take an oath to help them live.
IMO.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
181. Well, go out and tell everyone about it --- !!!
And let's hope the DU vote is going to be for someone who sponsors real
single-payer health care!!!

Also -- get your kids passports ---
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
182. rec 117!
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
186. Watched it "On Demand" last night
Thanks to our good friends here on DU, I already knew most of the anecdotes from the film but seeing it played in context was devastating. My wife, who works in the industry, was apalled...absolutely apalled......

I hope everybody is this outraged
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
187. Every candidate should simply be talking about extending MEDICARE to every citizen ---
Poof!! One fell swoop, we would have single-payer health insurance for everyone!!


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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
190. Bush and Congress have no problem signing away $trillions to spend on war....

but when it comes to much needed social programs, the funds simply aren't available. Impeachment needs to be carried out if, for no other reason, to counter the sickness taking over our government.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
194. Free universal health care won't help you if you're a boomer
check out comparative dialysis rates based on age in New Zealand. Check out wait times for major orthopedic surgeries on the elderly in Canada.

Personally, being Canadian, I grew up under socialized medicine and I like the system, and I certainly think that it should be rationed so that the bulk goes to preventative care of the young and NOT wasted on the vain desires of the elderly... but I doubt that very many Americans would tolerate it.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #194
200. You are forgetting that we already spend twice as much per capita as Canada
If that money was actually spent on health care, our single payer system would be goldplated by comparison to Canada's.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #200
203. That's actually true
but I'm thinking that instead of medical coverage, there'd be a huge huge huge bureaucracy.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #203
208. there already is...it's called the insurance companies eom
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 06:32 PM by noiretblu
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #203
209. Bureaucracy as in the Private System?
Getting rid of the "middle man" would remove that bureaucracy and make it less expensive.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #203
233. There isn't for Medicare, which is a very hopeful sign
Global budgeting would cut down on fraud quite a bit also.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #194
201. Orthopedic surgery is a 'vain desire' of the elderly? Wanting to walk is a vain desire?
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #201
202. it is if you're over 70 and a young person needs an operation (nt)
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #202
225. Bullshit. This is the kind of attitude that got us into this mess. WE NEED HEALTHCARE FOR ALL...
...and if we cut just SOME of the wasteful CEO salaries and paperwork ALL could have what they need. It's an outrage what some of these people are raking in over others' dead bodies.



PS -- Poster #194, will you be proposing disintegration chambers for all the "vain" elderly next? Heck, why not? Kill the old farts off before they cost too much money. Sounds like a plan....

:eyes:
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #225
248. Soylent Green anyone? (nt)
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #194
206. Well, dialysis in this country is mostly socialized because
the insurance industry wants nothing to do with it, so if you can't pay the $3,000 or so out of pocket that it costs every month, you are covered under Medicare which covers the elderly here, but also covers special diseases like end stage renal disease.

Socialized medicine is not free. You have to pay into it just like insurance to be enrolled. The difference is that you won't be turned away for a pre-existing condition or if you can't pay into the premium because you are too sick and unable to work. I believe you pay into your system somehow in Canada too. It's just that you won't be overwhelmed with medical bills when you do get sick. You have that security of access to health care when you need it.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #206
229. In Canada, there's a monthly premium based on income
and it's also funded by tax money. When I last lived in BC, it was 72 bucks per month for a family at my income level.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #194
215. Boomers are aging...

unless you enjoy watching the elderly suffer and die needlessly, then social programs are a necessity. I agree that there should be some kind of incentives for preventative care. If more boomers could live healthy lives into their 90s, then it would help free up the system for those who are sick.
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #215
228. No way... living into your 90s is hugely expensive
boomers should start smoking three packs a day and drop from massive, instant coronaries.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
195. Double-triple-Guantanamo DITTO!
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MOJOFILTER Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
196. Health Care
Take away the health care benies from all of the government workers, at all levels, including the congressmen and women and legislators and watch how fast the health care system gets fixed.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #196
217. amen! i am about to go on disability
Edited on Mon Dec-31-07 07:23 PM by noiretblu
for a medical condition and i have to pay Cobra...to the tune of $500.00 per month. my condition has already put a financial burden on me (my insurance doesn't cover alternative care, and i need special food and supplements), and now i will take a pay cut AND pay my insurance premium. i am thankful to have insurance, but damn it will be hard to pay for it. it doesn't make sense to put a financial burden on people who are already dealing with the huge burden of having a health issue. at this point, my financial stresses are worse than the illness itself, and that certainly isn't helping me heal.
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MaryRN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #217
223. If it's going to be a long term thing to the best one can predict,
File for SSD now.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #223
241. i'm in california, short-term disability is one year
and i will need only three months or so. thanks for the advice...i will heed it if necessary.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
211. Free Universal will be Cheaper and More Efficient!!!!!
We are already paying for it now! Don't let the right wing or the health insurance industry tell you any different. Private health insurance is a useless bureaucracy that rips off people already. It's a "middle man" that isn't necessary.
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #211
218. Provably so
I'm British, the only part of our healthcare that isn't socialised is dentistry (which is why Brits traditionally have bad teeth). Funded by taxes, administered by professional civil servants. I pay 7 (about $15) per prescription as a contribution to the cost of drugs (the old, young and poor are exempt from that) and it's STILL cheaper than your system.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #218
242. I Wondered about Dentistry in Britain
and this isn't meant as a slam, but you just acknowledged something I and my partner have noticed for a while. This privatized healthcare system really is idiotic.
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #242
244. I know it's not a slam
As Brits, we tend to have bad teeth. That's not a slam, it's simple fact. We have fluridated water which helps to a certain extent but the main reason is our piss-poor dental care. What happened was that when the NHS was set-up, no-one thought to make rules for dentists. In theory, it is possible to get dental care paid for by the NHS but because of a technicality in the rules, detists are not obliged to offer service to NHS patients and (even more crucially) there is no limit on the fees they can charge. The result is that the overwhelming majority of dentists do not take NHS patients and charge through the nose for any kind of dentistry exam.

Last time there was a dentist in this area taking on NHS patients, there was a queue two and a half miles long (and no, that's not an exageration).
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #244
250. Thank You....
I feel less ignorant hearing it straight from a Brit. Are you in the states now?
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #250
251. Nope
I'm in a weird situation where I live in the Midlands but work with and for Americans. The site I work for (Beliefnet) is based in New York but I work over the web.
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
213. It's not free
It's "free" at point of delivery but funded out of taxes (which is what we have here for everything except dentistry).

I know that's probably what you meant but figured it should be made clear.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
221. long live the NHS!
if the UK can do it then we can
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MaryRN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
222. Damn straight. Happy New Year, Everyone.
:party: safely.
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CelticWinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
224. You sound just like my hubby did
after he watched SICKO. I have been saying for years that we need a universal health care plan and he agreed but it wasnt until he sat and watched the movie that his juices began to flow. He just finished with a utilization review board (where they try and deny your medical care and get bonuses for it) it went in his favor but he was totally amazed at the actions of insurance companies. Like he said the insurance companies want us dead than to pay for treatments. I agree with what you have said about the insurance companies they can all piss up a rope. Those in public office better take a good look at their jobs because hubby and I are not voting for anyone who doesnt support universal health care.
CelticWinter
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junebug51 Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
227. Free Heath Care is not Free
Nothing in life is free. There is always a cost, sometimes it is hidden. I agree their are parts of the health industry that needs adjustment, but socialized care isn't the answer.

Ask how many of your friends use antibotics for their colds? Ask them why are they burdening the health industry for drugs that won't work with a cold.

Just remember when the government gives away something for "free", someone like you and me gets taxed alot more. Personally, I think I pay enough now, do you want $500 or more taken out of your current paycheck to pay for this "free" service? I sure don't.

Also imagine this, if the service is free how many more people are going to bog down the system for insignificant health issues and non-emergency services. Who will suffer, those that really need the care.

Be careful for what you wish for?
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jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-31-07 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #227
230. Sorry you're wrong and your arguement falls far short
Frankly nothing could be more costly and cover fewer people than our current system. Your antibiotics for colds analogy doesn't apply.

I really feel bad for anyone trying to defend the current system. Even raw capitalism (which I oppose) would work better than the HMO nightmare we have now.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #227
237. Oh my.. there's that awful word socialism... Hell the military is the biggest
socialized program the USA has, how do you feel about that?
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #237
240. There's ALWAYS money for wars.
Hundreds of billions of dollars just materialize!!

But if it's something to help people here, it's "Oh no, taxes! Evil taxes! Don't punish the rich!"
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #227
239. Oh for cryin' out loud.
The cost of insurance is tremendous as it is, and a lot of it is WASTED. The cost of effective care for all is NOT more than what's being spent now.

Obviously, government funding is required -- but we have that now for government employees and through medicare. We also pay for 'socialized schools' and much more. And we talk about "free" public education. This is the same.

You should see "Sicko." This country's system -- or lack thereof -- is a disgrace.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #227
243. You PAY MORE FOR A PRIVATIZED SYSTEM
duh

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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-01-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #227
245. The facts are against you
I'm British. Medicine (except dentistry) is socialised here and we pay LESS than you do for comparable standards of care. Also, if the system is socialised, there is no incentive for doctors to prescribe antibiotics for colds since they don't make anything from it (which is why doctors here don't). As for how many people bog the system down, I accept this is anecdotal but I can usually get an appointment the same day if I need one.

Finally, you wouldn't be paying "extra" since a socialised healthcare system removes the need for private insurance and, once again, is actually cheaper than what you pay now since middlemen are kept to a minimum and there is no burden to make a profit.
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