Education Level at DU

[cgrindley]

Poll question: Education Level at DU

I'm curious about people's education here at DU. Sometimes I get the idea that I'm getting into debates with people who have pretty good educations, but sometimes I get the idea that I'm dealing with people who are pretty much self-taught. So what is it?

[fascisthunter]

1. I'ma Bush Sipporter

I beleev in comun cents. :crazy:

[robinlynne]

2. silly freeper...

[ChairmanAgnostic]

45. silly. it's "I's a bush support."

[Buzz Clik]

3. Dr. Science is not a real doctor....

"I have a Masters Degree. In science!"

[kentuck]

4. I detect a bit of elitism..

:-)

[skooooo]

5. Elitism?

Why?

Should someone be ashamed of their education? Don't we think it's a good thing?

[cgrindley]

6. Yeah... this elitism charge is asinine

anyone who thinks it's elitist to go to college, or to be proud of going to college, ought to get off their butts and register for some classes and get the chip off their shoulder. Everyone should be college educated. And I mean everyone.

On second thought... I guess the OP was questioning whether or not I was privileging education in matters of political discourse, in effect arguing that those with "better" educations by definition have more cogent things to add to a discussion, that their opinions were by necessity more informed and more worthwhile than those without years and years of college...

YES. That is what I'm saying.

[hfojvt]

13. "The sad thing about a person like you is that one day you will wake up

and do some thinking of your own, and you will realize that there are two certainties in life. One, don't do that, and two, you just wasted $100,000 on something you could have gotten for $3 in late charges at the Public Library."

Sorry, I just had to quote "Good Will Hunting". Bush and I have the same number of college degrees. I have 8 years of college and an M.A. He has 5 or 6 and an MBA. He went to better schools (presumably).

Thus, we prove it is possible for a college educated person to be a dishonest ignorant idiot.

We really have that many PhDs and M.A.s here? Or A) it's more likely for a person with lots of education to answer such a poll or B) people are lying on this anonymous poll.

[cgrindley]

14. I think so... lots of PhDs here

even I have a PhD, an MA, an incomplete MFA, a BFA, an incomplete BA, and an incomplete AA. 12 years of college in all. $475,000. Still owe $10,000 or so.


with regards to Bush... he is evil not ignorant. everything he has done, he has done on purpose.

[goodgd_yall]

44. I think it's the purpose for the OP

that hints of elitism. Why does the OP want to know?

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. I think having money is a good thing too.

Yet, if I were to ask everyone how much money they have, do you think that those who have two dimes are likely to volunteer that information? Would those who post their seven figure net worth come off as a bit smug? Would those who post their seven figure wealth as reflective somehow on their inherent worth appear elitist?

There is a strong response bias in this poll. Further, I find the response of many of those who took the time to post responses to it as borderline unseemly.

"There's a strong correlation between intelligence and wealth"

I trust that you can see the elitism inherent in that view.

[skooooo]

55. No...

Education is not an indication of wealth or intelligence, its mostly an indication of hard work and that is not elitist. No one is branding users by their education. This is an anonymous poll.

If, for some reason, everyone's education level was on display when they posted, then yes, that would be elitist. There are many reason why some people don't get an formal education - could be laziness, disinterest, sometimes a lack of money - but when there's a will, there's usually a way.

[Annces]

7. Education in one area

only means that. It does not extend to all of life or politics.

[cgrindley]

8. Sure it does

the goal of a college education is to prepare a person for life long learning and the ability to apply critical thinking skills to all sorts of problems. The first two years of pretty much every single college in North America and Europe are structured to provide these skills--general education core competencies. Look it up.

http://www.aacu.org/resources/generaleducation/index.cfm

that is a page of links on the issue. As a student, you might not have been aware of what your professors were trying to do with your education, but you can rest assured that *they* knew.

[Ikonoklast]

16. That doesn't explain College Republicans

As a matter of fact, it is an example of the complete opposite.

If critical thinking skills were actually taught to these youngsters, they would not be the willfully ignorant bunch that they are. Of course, I am assuming that they actually are listening to the lectures.

Of course, I have read studies that the more highly educated a person is, the more likely that person will have liberal leanings.

Maybe they're just better listeners.

[cgrindley]

20. You said it... willfully ignorant

the goals of general education are easily defeated by those who desire to remain ignorant through their willpower. College republicans honestly WANT to be asshats.

[MrScorpio]

71. Willfully GREEDY asshats

Motivation is everything

[Annces]

19. I disagree

My critical thinking abilities were developing as a child and school did very little to develop them. I got a degree in Biology. Most of the classes were based on memorization. The teachers that I did learn from, had more of a free style approach to teaching, where you had to be creative and not concerned about a grade. I did have one art teacher that gave me some basics that I continue to use.

And I have had a few college professors that I was friends with. One of them had very little critical thinking, except as it applied to his particular subject. Take him away from that, and he was lost in the woods. He never developed the ability to look at the world around him and draw basic conclusions. He never read literature or thought outside of the box at all.

[cgrindley]

21. Do you not remember your first two years of college?

don't you remember taking Comp and Lit and Philosophy and all the other Gen Ed requirements?

[Annces]

25. I took those classes

and got the grades and jumped through the hoops. They did not develop my thinking abilities. Often when I used my thinking abilities which I brought with me, that was not what they wanted. Teachers often want you to just repeat what they have taught you, regurgitate. Even art teachers will do this. There were some classes I was not good at, such as microbiology, because my mind just did not have that comprehension level that required. Just as some people will never be able to draw, no matter how much you try to teach them.

I do think you can benefit in specialization, but that is what I said originally. For instance a PhD will help you become a great scientist, but that person would not necessarily be able to discuss the middle east or Bush at all.

[cgrindley]

26. I don't know what to say

perhaps you approached it all with the wrong spirit, or perhaps you went to a college that didn't value general education, or a college that had crappy humanities and arts faculty.

What year was this?

[Kip Humphrey]

41. yup... all 4 of them!

[Igel]

62. I was taught critical thinking first by a professor I nearly hate.

My first year in a PhD program, after I had my MA. It was an MA-level class, however.

Nothing of note during my BA years.

My undergrad profs taught something they called "critical thinking", but either they knew they were lying, or they were stupid. Or both. They didn't subject the theories and facts they taught in class to any critiquing--evaluating their strengths and weaknesses. Their stuff only really had strengths. To the extent we looked at other folks' theories--done more often in some classes than others--their theories only really had weaknesses. The few times they approached critical thinking, it was merely a pragmatic device: It wasn't clear what to make of what they were doing, since it often simply involved admitting that their own theory didn't account for something that another approach did.

"Critical thinking" for them was, in most cases, "being critical of things we don't want to believe or can't fit into our worldview." It was mostly in humanities and social sciences we looked at opposing theories and views; in science and engineering we looked at strengths of our views. In econ and applied math, we looked at theories as part of a toolkit, you use what works.

My 10th grade history teacher taught more critical thinking than my Towson State, Stevens Tech and U. Delaware faculty combined. Engineering, chemistry, Russian and literature ... I fulfilled one set of GE requirements, transferred, lost 15 credits of GE and took more GE classes. A paucity critical thinking. Lots of being critical of others, lots of mounting arguments to show "we" are right, but virtually no critical thinking.

The high history teacher was a hoot. Any assertion would be skewered. "Stalin was a bad man", "FDR was a good president", "The Great Awakening was important in American history" ... whatever. His point: We were ignorant, and had so many facts to learn that the idea of actually critiquing something fairly was beyond us ... and that without facts, both pro and con a view, we had no right to claim that we had a reasoned opinion--instead we merely had an emotional stance. Sometimes he'd just misdirect: "The Holocaust was bad" ... "But look at the US and the Indians." We were all too ignorant to point out his non sequitur and accuse him of a fallacy, and had a lot of reasoning and logic to learn. Of course, he didn't have time enough to either teach sufficient facts or sufficient logic. He said we'd learn critical thinking in grad school.

He was right. Having taught some classes with more than a few college seniors at three universities (none mentioned above), I've seen that their critical thinking skills are no better than incoming frosh, and uniformly suck. They can be critical, and confuse that with critiquing; they can pull apart a theory and show its flaws and point out facts that contradict it (with some work, at least), and they confuse that with critical thinking. They assume that if they show errors in reasoning or fact, it's a given that they've shown an argument is valueless.

[skooooo]

9. Education is about learning how to think...

That is why a liberal education is important - learning how everything is connected. Education is not just mastering one subject. It's broader than that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. No, it's not.

Education doesn't teach you how to think, it directs you in what to think about. Intelligence is a hammer and a saw. Education is a set of plans. The hammer and saw are capable of anything. The plans, once executed by the hammer and saw, will only create one thing.

It's no coincidence that many of the most groundbreaking innovations are created by those with only the most rudimentary education, or one tangential to their field of innovation.

[skooooo]

57. Critical thinking skills....

....yes it does. Otherwise no one would ever be able to apply what they have learned to other fields. Even you allude to this in your next statement...


You say, "It's no coincidence that many of the most groundbreaking innovations are created by those with only the most rudimentary education, or one tangential to their field of innovation."

REALLY? Examples??? Maybe that was true 150 - 200 years ago, but not anymore since knowledge has expanded so much.

[JerseygirlCT]

69. Exactly. Or a good one, anyway. nt

[rucky]

22. Ain't that the troof.

Some of the least well-rounded people I met in grad school.

[tech3149]

10. Intelligence and education don't have a concrete association

My ex was one of the smartest people I know, but never got a degree for any of the education she received. I got a degree in a very specific field but must admit to not always being the most clear thinking in some areas.

Personally, I have more respect for someone who learned things on their own. I think history would show that most innovative and creative people did not require a formal education, just the access to information.

[cgrindley]

11. Sure they do

A careful study of history would most certainly show you that the most important, influential and creative people to ever live had extensive formal educations by at least an order of magnitude more than those who did not.

Education and intelligence, by the way, have been linked. The average IQs of people holding various advanced degrees are indeed higher than those who do not hold advanced degrees. That is not to say that uneducated people do not have high IQs, but merely suggests that highly educated people usually have higher than average IQs.

My ex-wife was a high school drop out but was exceptionally intelligent. She should have done something with that big brain of hers. Pity she didn't. She might have done something useful or important with her life if she had lived up to her potential.

[Richard Steele]

23. You mean the "most important, influential and creative people" people like Thomas Edison?

:rofl:

[cgrindley]

27. Einstein, Marx, Freud, and Wilson all had PhDs

I'm thinking that for every one name you can give me, I can give you 100 with a university education.

[Richard Steele]

34. And how many of them would agree with your elitist, transparently overcompensatorial premise, hmmm?

nm

[cgrindley]

35. All of them

get real.

[Richard Steele]

36. LOL! You're really going all-out to win that DUzy, aren't you?

[cgrindley]

37. What have you got against education?

having a college education is better than not having one. Everyone should have one. The more education, the better.

[Richard Steele]

40. Wow, constructing a strawman while moving the goalposts! You're one hell of a multi-tasker!

[cgrindley]

43. Why do you use "elitist" like you think it's an insult when education is being

discussed? an educated populace is *better* than an uneducated or poorly educated one. It should be the goal of a progressive society to push its citizens to 100% participation in college. The uneducated and poorly educated do not make as good a citizens as the educated. You can see this in everything from health trends and other lifestyle choices to parenting practices and even voter participation rates. You've lost this argument time and time again. I don't know why yu bother.

[Richard Steele]

60. Do you think that pile of blather will make us overlook your desperate attempt to change arguments?

I'm guessing you weren't on the Debate Team- or at least, not for long.

Such an extracurricular endeavor requires both logical consistency, and a
consistent grasp of terms and definitions. This thread is a veritable SHOWCASE
of your inabilty and/or unwillingness to competently apply either concept.

Your logic ranges from sloppy to absent, and your use of terms in
what I'll kindly call "rebuttals" displays a degree of willfully
opportunistic cluelessness seldom seen outside of kindergardens,
secured mental health facilities, or "B*sh '08" websites.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

65. ...

:evilgrin:

I'd say you nailed it DS... great observations and commentary throughout this thread. :thumbsup:

[harun]

46. I think what the OP was trying to say is that degree's should

not be equated to intelligence and your list helps make that point. What those on your list had was intelligence, education and were extraordinarily hard working.

You can be really hard working, well organized and gain about any degree you want but you might not actually be that intelligent. Those in your list had the whole package. So someone could be the most intelligent person on Earth and if they are too lazy to leave the house, it still doesn't make them any less intelligent, just no one would ever know they were intelligent.

[Richard Steele]

53. Trust me- he knows perfectly well what I was saying.

Please don't waste your time imagining that he is actually
interested in anything you have to say. Most of us here
have long recognized that he isn't.

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. It indicates that IQ, wealth and education are associated.

It can as easily be argued that wealthy people are the most intelligent and that education is a side benefit of familial wealth.

American elitism is all wadded up into one unhealthy ball o' shit.

[pleah]

28. I totally agree with you. I know people with degrees and those without,

and I would not say one group is more intelligent that another. You cannot measure a person intellect by a piece of paper.

[cgrindley]

29. Not you cannot measure a person (sic) intellect; however,

you can predict it at least in one direction.

[warren pease]

12. Mastur's degree in jurnalism...

I were a reportur about 20 yeers ugo, butt mye skils hav been erodin four sum thyme.

wp

[shadowknows69]

59. You're fine

Just need a good editor.

[DemGa]

15. Associates now, Bachelors next year...nt

[cgrindley]

17. Good for you

Keep on studying. It's a great thing.

[CTyankee]

48. It certainly is. It saved me from insanity at a horrendous job.

I went back to school as the "world's oldest grad student" to get a Master's in Liberal Studies (yes, I'm a generalist). I took courses in political science, history, poetry, religion, sociology, art history, music history and economics. They were all a joy (with the possible exception of econ) and took my mind away from my relentlessly stressful job of raising $750,000 a year for a nonprofit statewide agency in CT. Fundraising can be just souless, using people to rack up dollars. Even tho it was a great nonprofit whose goals I heartily endorsed, it was still awful. Thank god for my MALS courses!

Of course none of this will get me monetary gain, but I can sure tell you about the paintings of Caravaggio or the works of Emily Dickinson!

[taught_me_patience]

18. I'm currently getting an M.B.A.

While also working full time. It is a part time program and I go to class every mon. and wed. night from 6pm to 10pm. It is a tremendous sacrifice, as it is going to cost me 70k and take three years of a lot of work, but you gotta do what you gotta do to maximize your chance of success in a very competitive business world.

[College Liberal]

24. 2010. Then my degree will be in hand.....

And i will have a Bachelors or Arts degree in English. Then it's off to graduate school....

[11 Bravo]

30. BA and MA in Education (Thank you, GI Bill).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. Ph. D. from an Ivy League institution

Taught on the college level for 11 years.

[JustAnotherGen]

32. Two B.A.'s in B.S.

Mass Comm (concentration in Adv. and PR) and Political Science. I wanted to be a lobbyist when I was younger . . . or work for The Southern Poverty Law Center, NOW, the NAACP, ACLU, etc. etc. doing Public Relations work.

[gowexler]

33. degree or no- obviously the smartest people on the net

When DU polls show time and time again- Kucinich is the clear winner- DUers know what's going on!

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. M. A in History

and lord I loved that time in school

[RedCappedBandit]

39. I'm still a student..

My intention is to go to graduate school and eventually work toward a PhD or a PsyD.. Only time will tell..

[McCamy Taylor]

42. Ummm.... this is a flawed survey. People with higher degrees will be drawn to the poll.

So it will present a false picture of the education level of people at DU.

Most schools suck until you get to graduate course work (and this includes Ivy League and so called "elite" schools, too--I went to Rice U. and I saw some pitiful undergraduate humanities there), so if you do not make an effort to educate yourself in this country, you are undereducated. I think the state does this deliberately, so that we will remain politically apathetic.

[Lex]

50. I have to say this: 2 of the smartest guys I know don't have college degrees.

nt

[gatorboy]

52. STFU!

"Ow, My Balls!" is on!

[lovuian]

54. Hey lots of smart people here at DU

this proves it

[porphyrian]

56. I have a lot of some college, but no degree. -n/t

[balantz]

58. I got edycated watching School House Rock

and H.R. Puffenstuff with a diet of P.D.Q. chocolate milk and Scooter Pies. The Vietnam War could be seen through the door of my parents room as I ran outside with my plastic M-16 with the bullet-sound trigger. I rarely touched my homework and started getting D's and F's in 3rd grade. Then came drugs and High School which I don't remember much. In my twenties I got a little College.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

61. Not to sound elitist, but . . .

B.S.--Bullshit
M.S.--More of the Same
Ph.D.--Piled higher and deeper

[Ilsa]

63. Okay. All we need is for the other 111,700+ DUers to poll in. nt

[Kurovski]

64. Kick.

High school graduate.

[uppityperson]

66. Need a college degree for "professional" like lawyer or doctor. Flawed bit there.

DoI vote my college degree or my profession?

[dysfunctional press]

72. i would assume the poll is intended to gauge the highest level you have attained...

obviously one generally needs a bachelor's degree before obtaining a higher degree, and one could probably assume that they all graduated high school as well.

:eyes:

i figgered that all out by myself- on the first try, even...and i didn't even earn a college degree.

who gave you yours...?

[uppityperson]

74. Try reading this and see if it makes more sense.

Some "professional degrees" are ADs, some BS's, some PhD's. Hence, not as you say. My first professional degree needed an AD, later I went on and got a BS. My colleague's profession required a PhD. Do we enter AD, BS PHD or "professional"? See, some are college degrees, some "professional". Not all college degrees involve a further li censure of "professional", and different professions that require further li censure do not require the same college degree.

Got it?

[superduperfarleft]

67. *cough*

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2546237&mesg_id=2546976

I wish people would consider context before responding to BS polls like this. It's obvious to me, in my very extensive time at DU, that the poster is trying to make a smart-ass point about people with whom he doesn't agree.

But since this is the internet, I have four PhDs, three masters degrees, two associates degrees, and a Nobel Peace Prize.

[greguganus]

68. RUN AL RUN! n/t

[superduperfarleft]

70. No.

I'd rather spend time at home with my large-breasted lingerie model wife, cleaning my collection of vintage Ferraris, and counting my millions of dollars.

[KillCapitalism]

73. Bachelor's here.

I'm not all that smart though, I'd just consider myself pretty average for the most part.

[Redstone]

75. High school graduate. No college.

Redstone