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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:48 AM
Original message
The Crisis of Confidence (Plame #5)
"He gave me a little lecture about breaking a conspiracy like Watergate. You build convincingly from the outer edges in, you get ten times the evidence you need against the Hunts and Liddys. They feel hopelessly finished they may not talk right away, but the grip is on them. Then you move up and do the same thing at the next level. If you shoot too high and miss, then everybody feels more secure. Lawyers work this way. Im sure smart reporters must too. I remember he gave me a look as if to say I did not belong in that category of smart reporters. " -- The Secret Man; Bob Woodward; 2005; page 91.

When the FBI investigators and Mr. Fitzgerald were attempting to uncover the truth about what the OVP/WHIG operation to damage Joseph and Valerie Wilson, the tactic that Mark Felt had described to Bob Woodward certainly applied. Yesterday, we looked at one of the players from the outer edge, Ari Fleischer, and by the mid-afternoon, Teddy Wells had made clear in open court that Fleischer had indeed felt the "grip" of the investigation. He looked out for #1.

The investigators and prosecutor try to use the "grip" to cause a degree of tension that fractures the suspects cover stories. Again, with Fleischer, we find that he immediately took the 5th, and requested immunity before he would testify. Mr. Eckenrode and Mr. Fitzgerald had looked at the WHIG/OVP, and had focused on events surrounding the African trip. Fleischer was something of an "outsider" within the primary suspects. Immunity was granted.

As the trial unfolds, we will see some of the other fractures. For example, today Marc Grossman will be back on the witness stand. We know he is friends with both Wilson and Armitage. But there are also tensions between Grossman and some of the others involved in the case. In their book "Hubris," Michael Isikoff and David Corn noted, "At times, tensions between Feith and Undersecretary of State Marc Grossman over matters relating to Ahmad Chalabis INC grew heated, so much so that Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley at one session had to order the room, the official said." (page 109)

Perhaps the most interesting fracture that became more evident yesterday was that between Scooter Libby and Karl Rove. Teddy Wells made it clear that VP Cheney was firmly in Libbys corner on this one. This came as no surprise to anyone who has read Joseph Wilsons book: "According to my sources, between March 2003 and the appearance of my article in July, the workup on me that turned up the information on Valerie was shared with Karl Rove, who then circulated it in administration and neoconservative circles. .Apparently, according to two journalist sources of mine, when Rove learned that he might have violated the law, he turned on Cheney and Libby and made it clear that he held them responsible for the problem they had created for the administration." (pages 443-444)

The number of times that Rove testified before the grand jury, the role played by Viveca Novak, and the private meetings at Robert Luskins office with Mr. Eckenrode and Mr. Fitzgerald, are all clear indicators that pressure was being applied to Karl.

A Washington Post article on 10-20-05 noted, "White House adviser Karl Rove told a grand jury in the CIA leak case that I. Lewis Scooter Libby, Vice President Cheneys chief of staff, may have told him that CIA operative Valerie Plame worked for the intelligence agency before her identity was revealed, a source familiar with Roves account said yesterday. In a talk that took place in the days before Plames CIA employment was revealed in 2003, Rove and Libby discussed conversations they had had with reporters in which Plame and her marriage to Iraq war critic Joseph C. Wilson VI were raised "

The prosecution is also aware of where the stronger links are. The obvious example is the relationship between Libby and Cheney. In "Hubris," the authors write, "But his ironic detachment vanished when it came to the boss, as he called the vice president. He was enamored ofCheney, he was almost an acolyte, said one friend. Libbys life revolved around Cheney, He took his vacations in Wyoming so he could be near the vice president. He even took up hunting. After September 11, he came to view Cheney as a historical figure who saw the dangers facing his country with greater clarity than anyone. In December 2001, during an interview with journalist James Mann, Libby read aloud a passage from Winston Churchills memoir of the years leading up to World Wart II: I felt as if I were walking with destiny, and that all my past life had been but a preparation for this hour and this trial. Libby told Mann these words could be applied to Cheney in the post-9/11 period." (page 238)

What is fascinating is that now, in the context of this trial, Team Libby must also attempt to exploit the fractures within the Bush administration. And that will include pointing out to the jury that Libby exercises a sense of loyalty to Cheney that is greater than that which Cheney shows for Libby.

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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks H2O Man for this thread nm
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. Ah, my next recommend.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
3. Divide and conquer
It is so awesome to watch how Fitzgerald split the Bush Administration in two. Now we can sit back and enjoy watching them devour each other.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. It is.
When Team Libby attacks current/former members of the Bush administration, progressive democrats can take pleasure in knowing that this is what we've been saying for years.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
76. When we see the worldly-wise good guys outsmarting the
worldly-wise bad guys in their deviousness, it's really something to behold, isn't it? Hilarious!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
4. I Whooped With Joy
When Wells said Rove did it. So many things then became evident and I love the fact that these rats will all now be at each other's throats. Couldn't happen to a "lovelier: bunch. Can't wait to see what today brings. And another I Liar bonus are these fantastic threads. Wonderful.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. This is what I said all along when people were angry with Fitz.
Great damage was being done to bushco behind the scenes every day.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. I think the media did this nation a disservice when they talked about 9-11 in religious terms
Edited on Wed Jan-24-07 09:03 AM by blm
and gave Bush so much cover as a 'leader' chosen by God. Who can forget that the most influential broadcast newsman of the day (Tim Russert) would find the time to ask his guests if they agreed that God chose Bush to lead the world through this time.

I think the WH became Messianic as a matter of political intent, and that the aura of 'destiny' was another creation of theirs to control everyone else.

What's pathetic is that so many in the newsmedia went along with it. It gave the WH all the cover for their extraordinary hubris, especially the hubris behind their acts of treason.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. A Mark Twain quote ......

(From: "To the Person Sitting in Darkness")

Having now laid all the historical facts before the Person Sitting in Darkness, we should bring him to again, and explain them to him. We should say to him:

"They look doubtful, but in reality they are not. There have been lies; yes, but they were told in a good cause. We have been treacherous; but that was only in order that real good might come out of apparent evil. True, we have crushed a deceived and confiding people; we have turned against the weak and the friendless who trusted us; we have stamped out a just and intelligent and well-ordered republic; we have stabbed an ally in the back and slapped the face of a guest; we have bought a Shadow from an enemy that hadn't it to sell; we have robbed a trusting friend of his land and his liberty; we have invited our clean young men to shoulder a discredited musket and do bandit's work under a flag which bandits have been accustomed to fear, not to follow; we have debauched America's honor and blackened her face before the world; but each detail was for the best. We know this. The Head of every State and Sovereignty in Christendom and ninety per cent. of every legislative body in Christendom, including our Congress and our fifty State Legislatures, are members not only of the church, but also of the Blessings-of-Civilization Trust. This world-girdling accumulation of trained morals, high principles, and justice, cannot do an unright thing, an unfair thing, an ungenerous thing, an unclean thing. It knows what it is about. Give yourself no uneasiness; it is all right."

Now then, that will convince the Person. You will see. It will restore the Business. Also, it will elect the Master of the Game to the vacant place in the Trinity of our national gods; and there on their high thrones the Three will sit, age after age, in the people's sight, each bearing the Emblem of his service: Washington, the Sword of the Liberator; Lincoln, the Slave's Broken Chains; the Master, the Chains Repaired.

It will give the Business a splendid new start. You will see.



http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_4.3/twain.htm
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Amazing for its insight - horrifying in its reality.
.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. We remember LBJ
on February 12, 1965, saying, "History and our own achievements have thrust upon us the principal responsibility for protection of freedom on earth ... No other people in no other time has had so great an opportunity to work and risk for the freedom of all mankind."

Or Secretary Rusk saying on February 9, 1968, "There gets to be a point when the question is, whose side are you on?"

These are the fairly recent echoes of the messianic thinking that has infected this country, and allowed the disease of Bush/Cheneyism to damage us to the extent it has.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. Clairvoyant in its reference to 'our fifty State Legislatures'.

:shrug:

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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
60. Precognitive, more like it.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
77. I didn't know they did that! Truly, the more you find out about them, the more improbably
Edited on Wed Jan-24-07 07:43 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
insane their machinations turn out to be.

Provided the MSM are never allowed to fall into the clutches of the far right again, no sane people would be crazy enough to attempt to engage in that kind of crazy, faux religious manipulation. It would be met with incredulous laughter and endless satirisation.
Well, no sane peole would do it any circumstances, anyway.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
7. This Is How Fitz Got George Ryan
Ryan was Fitz's target, but it took squeezing up Ryan's tight chain of patronage that led to the ultimate conviction...and it took time.

Watching Fitz work is like watching surgery. Each step he takes, each move he makes, each thing he says is calculated to both prove his point and invoke even further doubt/questions. It's definitely playing to the "looking out for #1" as he'll focus on a target or key wintess and bring pressure that can extract lots of useful information...some that came out in open court yesterday...and I suspect there's more on the way.

H2O Man...thank you for your thoughtful and insightful posts that fill in a lot of the gaps between what limited and superficial headlines the corporate media is throwing around and the disjointed live blogging that is great to follow and where your insight really is invaluable.

Cheers.

:toast:
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. Thanks for this, H20 Man. Please post links to parts 1-4.
You might also want to go back into the threads on earlier parts and post links. :thumbsup:
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. You'll Find Most Of Them In The Research Forum
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
83. All of these threads to date (1-5)
are now in the Research Forum. :)

H2O Man got ahead of me there for a couple of days...
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
9. So Ari Talked To Russert?
as reported by Schuster. Says it could be good for the defense, though I don't think AF will slant it that way. He has nothing to lose, as he has immunity.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I know that Ari
talked to David Gregory. I am not aware of him talking to Russert; in fact, I think that Mr. Fitzgerald's case includes information that indicates Mr. Russert was not aware of Valerie Plame's identity.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
40. David Gregory
was supposed to be part of MSNBC's post-SOTU coverage last night, but never appeared.

I have to wonder if it's because his name came up at the trial earlier in the day. Did he need to spend his time elsewhere?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I think it might be.
David Corn wrote on his blog that when an NBC co-worker e-mailed him a question about the news, Gregory e-mailed back, "I can't help you, sorry."
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
13. The story so far: Libby adores Cheney. Cheney loves Libby. Rove very bad man
who does horrible thing to Valarie.
Rove tells Fitz "Libby did it, not me."

Will Cheney rush to Libby's side?
Stay tuned.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
14. Scooters' Tragic Innocence
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/01/24/scooter...

>>
As someone who's an old friend of Scooter Libby's and at the same time a frustrated critic of the Bush administration, I find I can see Scooter's trial in just one way. What we are witnessing here again is an old drama of ambitious innocence foundering in and probably drowned by a world much more wicked than it ever knew. To be sure, Shakespeare would not have penned a plot that hinges on the hero's claim that he simply "forgot." But this is an American tragedy, after all. The backdrop here is not the steeps of Mt. Parnassus or the gorges below Delphi. It's the Washington Beltway, clogged with SUVs and littered with half-eaten Whoppers and Big Macs.

Until yesterday, the riddle that preoccupied the press was the apparent "paradox" of Scooter Libby. Some pundits wondered how a first-rate legal mind could have forgotten such crucial details of his professional life or told such clumsy lies. Others wondered how a "buttoned-down lawyer" could wear a cowboy hat and drink tequila. And still others wondered how such a canny operator could be persuaded to fall on his sword to protect his superiors.

Now we have something new to wonder about: Was Scooter really a "scapegoat" used to protect Rove, as his attorney alleges? Or is this just a strategy Scooter's lawyers have devised to portray a shrewd insider as a victim of palace intrigue?
>>

Why did Libby have such loyalty to Cheney?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
18. The high-quality reporting
from the courtroom is being brought to the grass roots by FireDogLake.

http://www.firedoglake.com/
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. And for court documents,
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
20. If you were Cheney and if you, as Cheney, were most interested
in bringing down the Brewster-Jenning investigation/analysis team - would you stay mum about B-J and concentrate on stopping all the attention by stopping the Wilsons - keeping it personal?

Stopping the Wilsons - means getting the WIlsons to shut up and fade into the wall and do it by allowing the Victoria Toensing's and Joe DeGenova's and corporate network types to set the pace of discrediting the claim and the claimant? In other words - would you never mention to Libby or Tenet or your favorite CIA contact or other staff or partners that B-J had to come down?

Or, is there nothing to B-J and everything is about the players, not CIA fronts?

Whether there is or is not something to the B-J takedown, could B=J be found in messages passed back and forth between Cheney and others - through Libby or direct?

I read the article saying the Libby defense lawyers were very eager to have Fitzgerald make damage claims and it would seem they would have done that to affect the civil suit if it goes forward. Since the civil suit is about damages the WIlsons would risk having the case thrown out if damages are taken up in the Libby trial - the entire civil suit could be presented as already tried?

Guess I'm trying to figure out if B-J enters into any of the Libby trial or behind the scenes testimonies. Has anyone who is lucky enough to follow this closely heard or read anything related to B-J and the Libby trial?
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
22. How does Wells defend the indefensible?
He aims to blur, distort and confuse the facts through omission and comission and finally blaming the president for hiring incompetents - conveniently forgetting that one of Scooter's three official titles was as Special Assistant to the President. This is more dangerous as Wells has stated the Libby forgot defense right up front.

It really is creative tension in his narrative that will trip Team Libby up - everyone else was bad (see Rove), craven (see Ari's immunity deal), stupid (see CIA en toto) or outright wrong (see media) and we only had bad memories (Team Libby). The defense rests on the whether the jury can believe that Bush set up an incompetent administration and the OVP were the only competent people anywhere in it. Libby has chosen Cheney to be his repository of Good Will while embarrassing Bush. I think the embarrassment is to get Bush to consider how much more damage team Libby can do beyond the narrow confines of this trial. Its almost a blackmail about legacy as to whether Bush wants to get in the mud even after the trial. Cheney is belligerent because Rove gets a seat at the table while Libby faces federal prison. The tension is palpable and the administration has to choose sides while giving the Wilsons avenues for pursuit in their civil trial. This is the stuff of political legends...

:popcorn:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. There is a danger
in claiming that "the entire WHIG consisted of crooks and fools .... except our client, little Scooter."
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Sounds like Grossman is having lots of memory problems?
He can't remember what he said and didn't say to the FBI. Didn't mention that Wilson was furious to Libby? Yeah, sure.

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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Ya gotta go with the lame excuse you have
not the spectacular one you want... For that much legal money, that IS the best they can do. Scooter's Risk and reward ratio is not in his favor.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Wow that was a pretty nice summation.
And that jury is not going to buy it. I cannot forget all the courtroom bloggers commenting when the defense said Libby was known to have a bad memory. The jurors and courtroom members gasped, as if to say "I don't believe you're using THAT as a defense!"

To me, it seems like they've got too many different excuses going on. I know they have to raise reasonable doubt, but when you point the finger at everyone except yourself, you start to look guilty by omission.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. My interest in the jury
was whether they were highly educated or worked in environments that would expose people who habitually blame everybody else and play the victim if they are found to have done something wrong. Libby can't admit one thing or his house of cards goes up in flames. His best shot is making a deal, but the price is Libby's beloved Darth Cheney.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. I think that people
can have that same "life experience," no matter if they work on a farm, in a factory, or a government agency.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. My concern was people who were saying
they didn't question authority (John Dean kept running in my head) and that there were some who worked on govt contracts so the mix was important of real life experience and iconoclastic intellectuals. Juries have not been the best here on some high profile cases in California for just that lack of thinking diversity on a jury.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. John Dean running through my head, too --authoritarianism
I keep thinking of Olbermann's interview with Dean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jA0OVtvqjk

And is it this "authoritarianism" that explains Libby's loyalty to Cheney?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Good point.
I assume that you are speaking about Dean's recent book (Conservatives Without Conscience) and his thoughts on people who accept the authority of "father figures." I was surprised that Dean didn't make reference to Erich Fromm's works, which had put this tendency into a fascinating cultural context that might have added to John's book. In this case, though, people who are rather rigid in their views in that way are perhaps more likely to respect Mr. Eckenrode that VP Cheney. When there is an FBI investigator saying he could tell the defendant was not telling the truth, that defendant will not do well with authoritarians. Cops rank higher than politicians in that world-view.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Yes, I was referring to Dean's book
The link I gave was to an interview Olbermann had with Dean about the book.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
79. Don't clarify Libby's position to him too much, Pithy! Tee hee.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
78. So is that!
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
24. "He took his vacations in Wyoming so he could be near (Cheney). He even took up hunting."
I suppose Libby even volunteered to let Cheney shoot him in the face, but Harry whittington had already applied for and been granted that spot.

============

I hope Fitzgerald is the one who teaches Libby the difference between destiny and fate.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
27. K&R!
Can't wait til the Fitz calls Eckenrode as a witness.
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La_Fourmi_Rouge Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
28. A Shakespearean Plot...
Oddly, it brings to mind the hijacking of the Achille Lauro in 1985, which story was the basis for an Opera, of all things. I believe the title was "The Death of Leon Klinghoffer".

Someone should be working on the Libby libretto at this very moment Hell, this is beyond opera or the Bard and rapidly approaching the Biblical Epic realm. The whole spectacle is absolutely Riveting.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. In July '05
I wrote, "Bolton's Adagio in DU Minor," about John's participation in the Plame scandal.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
80. Truly, "matters of great pith and moment", as I believe the Bard put it.!
Edited on Wed Jan-24-07 08:08 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
32. MSNBC: David Shuster
is reporting on Grossman's testimony. He is talking about how it impacts the Libby stance, and how it sheds light on the inner-workings of an administration leading the nation to war.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. More Please
Impact?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Scooter had
discussions on Wilson and the Niger trip with Grossman. He was interested in the subject. He was approaching people in other parts of the government, seeking information. The 6-10-03 report was being passed around. It might not have been the #1 issue facing the administration at the moment, but it had caught everyone's attention -- including Mr. Libby's. The stage is set for the following witnesses to detail how Scooter came to focus a good deal of attention on the Wilsons.
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La_Fourmi_Rouge Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Scooter pulled Grenier out of a meeting, also.
Nothing like an urgent call from the OVP to make someone remember a conversation - I. Liar Libby was all over the Wilsons like ugly on moose.

I'm thinking Scooter wishes he had pled out about a year-and-a-half ago.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. "I'm thinking Scooter wishes he had pled out about a year-and-a-half ago."
That would have been the smart play, and they say he is a smart guy. His time would have run by now, and he'd be back skiing the Aspens.

He must have faced something worse than a couple of years in prison.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. The plea deal offered
by Mr. Fitzgerald included "significant" incarceration. He would only be out had he been granted a pardon.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. I also think he would have had to give up Cheney.
Which I don't think at that time he was prepared to do.

However, I think you are right on the point that "Team Libby" will give up the entire administration if it will get Scooter off. Scooter looks really bad.

I'd say the chances of Scooter getting a Presidential pardon are nil, especially after implicating Karl and Ari. I wonder if he will actually do prison time for these folks. Perhaps he thinks the jurors will be lenient during sentencing.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. You do wonder what Libby is thinking, don't you? n/t
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Murray Waas: Observers say: Libby Lawyers Signaling for Pardon?
Edited on Wed Jan-24-07 02:43 PM by antigop
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002401.php

>>
I had a chance this morning to check in with Murray Waas, the National Journal scribe who's done a lot of the most illuminating reporting on the Plame leak investigation and the White House's machinations in response.

Waas sat in on the trial yesterday, and watched as lawyers for former Cheney aide Scooter Libby unfurled their argument that their client was set up as a fall guy for Bush's top political adviser, Karl Rove. Readers will recall that we thought that was both the most interesting and most perplexing part of the defense's opening argument.

"Some observers think that they're trying to send a message to the White House" with the references to Rove, Waas told me, "saying that they hope their guy is pardoned."
>>

<edit> to correct misleading subject line
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Yes, why didn't he take a deal?
Edited on Wed Jan-24-07 02:11 PM by antigop
What is the source of this loyalty to Cheney?

Is it the authoritarianism that John Dean writes about in "Conservatives Without Conscience"?

Or is it something else?

If the deal included "significant incarceration", then was he hoping for a deal? And is he still hoping for a deal? Does he expect to be found innocent?


<edit to add> Does he think that if found guilty, his incarceration would be any less than what he would have gotten with a plea deal?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. I Think They All Thought They Were Too Smart By Half
Back when all this started, Asscroft was still the AG, so it didn't occur to them they might get in trouble by lying and obstructing justice. They were all in a headset. They were the "in" crowd and nothing could hurt them. Didn't Rove promise that the publicans would remain in power for generations. And then something shocking happened. The AG had to recuse himself and he put Comey in charge. Comey raised the ante by choosing FitzG. as prosecutor, a real, buttoned down, law and order guy who doesn't think anyone is above the law, a man who is offended by criminality, especially those who kick sand in the face of the umpire. That was/is the reality.

Well we all know how this WH deals with reality! IMHO, in the beginning I don't think I Liar thought anything would come of this. Then I think he thought he could wiggle out and compounded what he did by lying to a GJ. His defense fund was formed by Barbara Comstock and Richard Carlson (Tucker's father) who pushed for a pardon and raised millions. I'm sure they told him to hold the line, they'd stand by him. They've been pushing for a pardon for him. I'm sure these big republican donors don't want the truth out and have been whispering promises to him.

Then there is the ego, of this James Bond wannabee. I'm sure he is finding it hard to believe that they will actually convict him. When it comes down, the guilty verdict, he will be shocked and he won't be surprised.

Prison? Doesn't have the stones for it. Rather take his chances, really has nothing to lose.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Thanks, me.
You may be right.

>>Well we all know how this WH deals with reality!

Silly me. Of course.

Scooter Libby Legal Defense Trust Advisory Committee Members:
http://www.scooterlibby.com/committee/
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Scooter probably thinks he will be rescued with a pardon
I'm not so sure that Bush is going to come thru
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #47
81. You obviously all know what you're talking about, but I find it stunning
Edited on Wed Jan-24-07 08:19 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
that you all seem to accept this political pardoning nonsense continuing in perpetuity without a murmur.

You are always going to encourage a higher level of criminality among your politicians than would otherwise obtain. It's asking for it, begging for it. Yet it seems to be accepted as though it were enshrined in the Constitution - while they will continue to make a mockery of the Constitution, usually in the sure knowledge that it will be with total impunity.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Due Respect But What Are You Talking About
Nobody has accepted anything, but the fact is that Libby's friends, those with close connections to the WH had hoped, and had campaigned for a pardon, hoping for one this last Christmas. In fact, there is a history of Republican presidents pardoning their political associates (Watergate, Iran Contra). Presidents can do this and no one knows that better than Libby for he was the lawyer who did the work that got Mark Rich pardoned by Clinton. It was considered not out of the realm of possibility that * might do the same for him. That option has always been a reality, and has nothing to do with us begging for it. The likelihood of it happening is a different matter and that has been the focus of the discussion on this and other Plame threads. And as each progressive witness appears on the stand, the chances of it happening diminish.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #82
90. I agree.
Since the 2004 Plame Threads, when some expressed concern that Bush would -- like his father -- pardon anyone at risk of being convicted in this scandal. I responded that, while possible, there were reasons why I thought Bush could not pardon people. Those reasons are coming to light in this trial.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. It's the possibility H2O; in the longer term, others will escape punishment.
The possibility should be eliminated, since its very existence is not so much an invitation as a positive encouragement to criminality. I don't say it has to be now - I expect you are right concerning that. If so, the same miscalculation will embolden future malefactors. It's not just the punishment, but also the crimes. Forfending against them.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #82
91. It is considered improper
for a sitting president to pardon wrong doers within his own administration. The only one who ever broke that unwriten rule was Bush Sr. and he did it sparingly and only at the end of his term.

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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. "....he did it sparingly and only at the end of his term."
Scant palliatives, just as undesirable as if they had been granted in greater numbers and at other points during his incumbency, imo.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #82
93. If it is enshrined in the Constitution, then I'm sorry, but that was one area
Edited on Thu Jan-25-07 04:09 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
where your Founding Fathers were anything but far-sighted.

I am marvelling that no-one else appears to see it and clamours for the possibility for a pardon to be narrowed to exclude "substantial" political activists. It shouldn't even matter that they support the other party, the right wing is so sly that they often seemingly have fifth-columnists among Democratic activists. Like for like, in the UK, too.

Of course, if financial clout were to be removed from the equation, the primary area of malfeasance, campaign funding, would cease to figure to any appreciable extent. At present, it's a bit like top athletes not taking the latest undetectable drugs; it leaves the good guys at a sore disadvantage. Hence even wild Bill pardoned some rogue(s).

It may be that the right to such pardons in the UK are vested in the PM as well as in the sovereign, but if so, I have never heard of a political criminal being pardoned here by either sovereign or PM. And goodness knows, our body politic stinks to high heaven.
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La_Fourmi_Rouge Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #81
87. I do understand your sentiments, but...
Presidential Power of Pardon has a Constitutional Basis:

The President's pardon power is established under the United States Constitution, Article II, Section 2:

"The President ... shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."

Ford pardoned Nixon, Poppy Bush pardoned about a dozen of his minions after Iran-Contra, and there was nuttin' we could do but piss and moan.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
43. Another thank-you for this, H20 Man.
I appreciate your efforts and guidance on the Plame affair.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
50. Marc Grossman:
Edited on Wed Jan-24-07 02:13 PM by mod mom
Just found this on another thread:

The relationship between the US and the ISI is hard to fathom. On September 4, 2001, ISI Director Mahmood
Ahmed arrived in Washington, D.C. On September 10, a Pakistani newspaper reported on the visit, saying that it
had "triggered speculation about the agenda of his mysterious meetings at the Pentagon and National Security
Council" as well as meetings with CIA Director George Tenet, unspecified officials at the White House and the
Pentagon, and his "most important meeting" with Mark Grossman, US Under Secretary of State for Political
Affairs. In May 2001, both CIA Director George Tenet and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage had
visited South Asia. It's not known if they met with Mahmood or anyone else in the ISI, but according to credible
news reports, Tenet had "unusually long" consultations with President Musharraf. It is also worth noting that
Armitage is known for his "large circle of friends in the Pakistani military and ISI" as well as his connections to
the Iran-Contra affair. On the morning of September 11, Lt. Gen. Mahmood was at a breakfast meeting at the
Capitol with the chairmen of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, Senator Bob Graham (D) and
Representative Porter Goss (R). The meeting was said to have lasted at least until the second plane hit the
World Trade Center. Goss is a self-admitted 10-year veteran of the CIA's clandestine operations wing. Goss and
Graham were later the heads of the joint House-Senate investigation into the September 11 attacks, and Goss in
particular made headlines for saying there was no "smoking gun" indicating that the government had sufficient
foreknowledge to prevent the September 11 attacks.
(http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essays ... )




MS PLAME'S ROLE W BREWSTER JENNING THREATENED A LOT OF FOLKS IN THE ISI. WONDER WHAT MR GROSSMAN DISCUSSED THAT DAY.

THANKS TO SEEMSLIKEADREAM FOR THIS: http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/AMERICANJUDAS.pdf

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Good UK Guardian article confirms Grossman's meeting w ISI Director:
Good article worth reading:

The Pakistan connection


There is evidence of foreign intelligence backing for the 9/11 hijackers. Why is the US government so keen to cover it up?

Michael Meacher
Thursday July 22, 2004
The Guardian

Omar Sheikh, a British-born Islamist militant, is waiting to be hanged in Pakistan for a murder he almost certainly didn't commit - of the Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002. Both the US government and Pearl's wife have since acknowledged that Sheikh was not responsible. Yet the Pakistani government is refusing to try other suspects newly implicated in Pearl's kidnap and murder for fear the evidence they produce in court might acquit Sheikh and reveal too much.

Significantly, Sheikh is also the man who, on the instructions of General Mahmoud Ahmed, the then head of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), wired $100,000 before the 9/11 attacks to Mohammed Atta, the lead hijacker. It is extraordinary that neither Ahmed nor Sheikh have been charged and brought to trial on this count. Why not?

Ahmed, the paymaster for the hijackers, was actually in Washington on 9/11, and had a series of pre-9/11 top-level meetings in the White House, the Pentagon, the national security council, and with George Tenet, then head of the CIA, and Marc Grossman, the under-secretary of state for political affairs. When Ahmed was exposed by the Wall Street Journal as having sent the money to the hijackers, he was forced to "retire" by President Pervez Musharraf. Why hasn't the US demanded that he be questioned and tried in court?

-snip

It has been rumoured that(Daniel) Pearl was especially interested in any role played by the US in training or backing the ISI. Daniel Ellsberg, the former US defence department whistleblower who has accompanied Edmonds in court, has stated: "It seems to me quite plausible that Pakistan was quite involved in this ... To say Pakistan is, to me, to say CIA because ... it's hard to say that the ISI knew something that the CIA had no knowledge of." Ahmed's close relations with the CIA would seem to confirm this. For years the CIA used the ISI as a conduit to pump billions of dollars into militant Islamist groups in Afghanistan, both before and after the Soviet invasion of 1979.

more at:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1266317,00.h...
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. You can find that info in several sources such
as "Intelligence Matters" by Senator Graham.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
51. OK so based on Ari's immunized GJ testimony I'm revising my implicated persons list.
I've got so far:

1) Karl (WH)
2) Ari (WH)
3) Richard Armitage (OVP?)
4) The CIA (?)
5) Dan Bartlett (WH)

Who else?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Dick Cheney.
Newt Gingrich.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. Well DUH!
Edited on Wed Jan-24-07 03:45 PM by Tatiana
1) Cheney (OVP)
2) Karl (WH)
3) Ari (WH)
4) Richard Armitage (OVP?)
5) The CIA (?)
6) Dan Bartlett (WH)


It will be interesting to see what consequences each of those people (if any) suffer.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
53. As always, thank you, H2O Man.
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
56. It is a real treat reading the transcripts of the trial
and reading your take on this H2Oman. Thank you.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
61. Interesting testimony from Robert Grenier.
I was concerned about not getting back to Libby before my 4:15 meeting.

What happened at the meeting.

Someone came to the door and beckoned for me to come out. Had a note from Libby to call him right away.

I had never been pulled out of a meeting with DCI before.

snip

Told him that it was true, CIA had sent Wilson.

How much else I said I don't recall. I may have mentioned debrief was written up.

Second major point I made the people had verified that not only OVP, but also requests as well from State and Defense.

What was his response to hearing that State and Defense had also been interested.

Asked if CIA would be willing to release that publicly.

I believe I did mention only in passing about Wilson's wife. In fact Wilson's wife works there and that's where the idea came from.

snip

Is it fair to say that all of these conversations, the note and phone calls with Mr. Libby all occurred on June 11.


http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/01/24/libby-liveblog-ro...

This falls in perfect lock-step with Fitz's opening statement - You can't find out about something on Thursday that you were talking about on Monday.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Yes, it is.
In the morning, I will try to start a new thread that focuses on some of the tensions between the OVP/WHIG/OSP and the CIA. I think that it might be of interest to DUers as the case moves forward.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
64. H20 Man did you see this Salon Article from Libby's childhood friend
because reading your post...I thought that somehow this article plays into what the Defense is trying to say "was and is" Libby's Psyche:

.........


Scooter's tragic innocence

Why my friend Scooter Libby is loyal to Bush, Cheney and an arrogant administration whose values are not his own.

By Nick Bromell
Pages 1 2
Print Email Digg it Del.icio.us My Yahoo RSS Font: S / S+ / S++
News

AP Photo/Pablo Martinez Monsivais

I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, walks to a cab as he leaves court Jan. 23, 2007, in Washington.

Jan. 24, 2007 | As someone who's an old friend of Scooter Libby's and at the same time a frustrated critic of the Bush administration, I find I can see Scooter's trial in just one way. What we are witnessing here again is an old drama of ambitious innocence foundering in and probably drowned by a world much more wicked than it ever knew. To be sure, Shakespeare would not have penned a plot that hinges on the hero's claim that he simply "forgot." But this is an American tragedy, after all. The backdrop here is not the steeps of Mount Parnassus or the gorges below Delphi. It's the Washington Beltway, clogged with SUVs and littered with half-eaten Whoppers and Big Macs.

Until yesterday, the riddle that preoccupied the press was the apparent "paradox" of Scooter Libby. Some pundits wondered how a first-rate legal mind could have forgotten such crucial details of his professional life or told such clumsy lies. Others wondered how a "buttoned-down lawyer" could wear a cowboy hat and drink tequila. And still others wondered how such a canny operator could be persuaded to fall on his sword to protect his superiors.

Now we have something new to wonder about: Was Scooter really a "scapegoat" used to protect Karl Rove, as his attorney alleges? Or is this just a strategy Scooter's lawyers have devised to portray a shrewd insider as a victim of palace intrigue?

Just below the surface of all these ruminations on Scooter's character lies the question that has tortured me for the past six years. I've known Scooter since we were both 11-year-old "new boys" at a boarding school in New England. Later we were roommates, co-captains of the debating team, and later still we both went to Andover. We had the same teachers, read the same books, and played hundreds of hours of touch football together. We were close friends, drawn to each other not just by shared interests but by a shared position on the cruel status ladder of these elite prep schools. In a world dominated by rich WASP jocks, we were both too small to play varsity sports. Scooter was a Jew. I was a scholarship boy whose family never owned a new car.

To me, the puzzle of Scooter Libby is not that he's a highly paid lawyer who likes to drink shots of tequila now and then. Nor is it the question of whether he was betrayed by his superiors. The deep mystery to me is that for years Scooter somehow managed to reconcile who he is with what his masters and mentors demanded of him. Easygoing, tolerant, humane, balanced, modest and witty, he is precisely everything that the Bush administration is not.

So, I ask: How could Scooter work enthusiastically for politicians who enflame and profit from anti-gay hysteria, when he is not himself a homophobe? How could he work untiringly for politicians who denied the fact of global warming, when he himself respects science? How could he pledge fealty to men allied with the Christian right, when he himself is secular and rational? (If his local public school started mandating the teaching of creationism alongside evolution, Scooter would certainly yank his kids out and send them off to Andover.) In short, how could someone like him work for the likes of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney?

The simple answer often given is "naked ambition," but that obscures what's most mysterious and compelling about this case. After all, if Scooter had been content with the standard American dream of power and wealth, he could have spent his life making millions very safely for a corporate law firm.

To understand Scooter Libby, we have to think about the particular form of his ambition. And to perceive that, we have to look at the peculiar education Scooter and I received at New England prep schools in the 1960s.

At Eaglebrook and then at Andover, Scooter was always a model citizen. He got excellent grades, and he participated enthusiastically in all aspects of school life. He cared whether the school teams won or lost, and he developed close, even sycophantic relationships with the teachers we had -- including teachers who had about half his IQ. I remember being especially puzzled by Scooter's high regard for one "master" (that's what prep-school teachers were called back then) -- a classic football-coach type who drilled us in marching and taught us how to salute the flag smartly. Most of the other boys in our little clique called him "Dumbo," but not Scooter. Scooter flattered him, and joked with him, and seemed genuinely to respect him.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/01/24/scooter...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. I saw it.
I think it is either a person looking for their 15 minutes of fame, or a person looking to polish Libby's image.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. ROFL...I thought the SAME THING...but as with all "Disinformation"
there's always a "kernal of truth." This was obviously a Libby buddy trying to shore up his buddy from Prep School Days...but in a way it does verify that Libby always liked to "suck up" to power that would promote him. From the "preficts" to the rest in his life's journey.

BUT...reading more about Libby...he had a very dark side that came out in his Novel and his path to fame and position included some "quirks" that his "prep buddy" might have missed along the way.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Scooter's dark side ....
His book "The Apprentice" is mentioned in "Hubris":

"The book, published in 1996, was sexually graphic. It included a reference to a bear copulating with young girls and a scene that featured the line, 'He asked if they should fuck the deer.' (As The New Yorker would later quip, 'The answer, reader, is yes.') In one chapter, the protagonist, the innkeeper's virgin apprentice, is tortured with a hot coal for refusing to yield a secret. Libby spared few details in describing the action. Rather than reveal the truth, the young man took the pain." (page 238)
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Better not mess with the deer



Its wonderful to see
the reindeer come down
from the forest,
and start pouring north
over the white tundra,
anxiously avoiding pit-falls in the snow.
Jai-ja-jija.
(eskimo song)

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #72
89. I thought it was a Bear his character was twiddling with...but then
I only read the most controversial passages from Scooter's book...and frankly it was kind of "offputting" to me in his weirdness as writing about "twiddling a bear" when he works for Dick Cheney. :eyes:

Anyway...all of the people in the Bushie II Admin are VERY WEIRD...and while I like some weirdness in my friends I like to think our "elected officials" have more BALANCE. :shrug:
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. Interesting article
excerpt ""I remember being especially puzzled by Scooter's high regard for one "master" (that's what prep-school teachers were called back then) -- a classic football-coach type who drilled us in marching and taught us how to salute the flag smartly. Most of the other boys in our little clique called him "Dumbo," but not Scooter. Scooter flattered him, and joked with him, and seemed genuinely to respect him.""

He seems to have no real convictions of his own, even though he is very smart.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #64
73. I Take Issue With This As Being A Matter Of Innocence
Adolescent in ways, yes. They knew what they were trying to do/doing and it made them mad that someone called them on it. Taunted the bully and his sidekick. So they got even. It was an act of revenge combined with self preservation. And they enjoyed it, don't think for a minute they didn't, that flexing of power. Just like two laughing boys ganging up on a third who wouldn't turn over his lunch money or accept them cheating on a game, so horribly adolescent.

The innocents whose trust had been betrayed are the American people who believed they could trust their leaders only to discover it was a trust betrayed.

There is one thing I agree with and it is this "While the men who benefited from his desire to serve them are still at their desks and phones across the Potomac River, Scooter is looking in the mirror, knotting his tie, and preparing himself for another day in court". I've always wondered if it ever occurred to I Liar to ponder the fact that his sub-subordinate Addington (witness for the prosecution) now has his job.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Right.
If a person gets pulled over for speeding on an interstate highway, it's not unlikely that as the officer writes out the ticket, that driver will gaze into his rear-view mirror, and think it unfair that other speeders were not pulled over. Guilty people often think in those terms. If he were driving safely, and obeying the law, he wouldn't have been pulled over.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
65. Do you think the "throw Karl Rove under the Bus" strategy will work
considering that Rove is a Bush Loyalist and Libby is a Cheney Loyalist.

Who's "Ox will get the worst goreing" ...and do you think that it might end up in a "stalemate" where the jurors will not be able to figure out which side to go down on?

It' may be too soon to ask you that because the "Dance" between Prosecutor and Defense is just in it's early stages and we don't yet know the "secrets" that both sides hold? :shrug:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. The business with Rove
is interesting. I know some have said that it is merely a tactic of the attorneys, to distract attention from Libby. However, the interactions with Libby, Scotty, and Cheney document that it was something that was real and serious long before the attorneys came in to play.

Were I to speculate, I would think that it is in part what Wilson noted in his book: the OVP used Rove to spread sensitive information, and when Rove found he was at risk of being charged with a crime, he was furious at Cheney and Libby. Remember, both Cheney and Libby understood the intelligence community at a far, far deeper level than Rove. They allowed guys like Fleischer and Rove to do much of the dirty work.

There were reports about a year ago that indicated Rove had helped Mr. Fitzgerald locate a significant number of "missing" documents. It may be that we are going to see a number of these as the trial moves forward. It could be that these will go a long way in convicting Scooter Libby. And they might reflect rather poorly on the vice president.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. Interesting what you are saying: "Seasoned "Secret Govt" vs "Politico Handlers"
Put Cheney Gang (seasoned from Cold War Govt Beaurocrats..serving multiple Presidents and embedded with the "Military Industrial Complex") against Karl Rove, Ari Fleisher and Politial Ops (from Texas and South)who came up through the "Young Republicans Gang" funded by Evangelicals (but in the background had RW Think Tanks guiding and funding the Evangelicals) and you come up with a MESSY SOUP of Vegies thrown in the pot that just don't jive and make the thing totally inedible for consumption. :shrug:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #69
84. What you say get's into Jason Leopold's reporting and to some extent
Edited on Wed Jan-24-07 09:47 PM by KoKo01
what Murray Waas reported. And I've always left the book open on Leopold's reporting, in that Leopold was TOLD OR FED Information or Disinformation and that he got "much of it correct" but the "disinfo" caused his trashing here on DU and elsewhere for not being "verifiable" by the Corporate Media. :shrug:

What do you think?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. They're Still Ready To Pounce
I'm still waiting for the tale to be told in its completeness, and hope the trial will provide answers.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. I hope so too...feeling that Leopold let himself out there to "hang" knowing
that his past would lead bloggers to discredit him. Who knows the "Truth of It" but I think we might find out.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
70. Another great thread
Thanks H2O Man.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
88. Can anyone shed light on the advisory members of Libby Defense Trust and what they might think?
Here are the
Scooter Libby Legal Defense Trust Advisory Committee Members:
http://www.scooterlibby.com/committee /

H20Man's original post said:
>>

Perhaps the most interesting fracture that became more evident yesterday was that between Scooter Libby and Karl Rove.
>>

Do you think that the people who contributed to Libby's Defense Trust were
1)surprised at the defense strategy shown in Wells' opening comments?
2)wanted or anticipated a showdown between Libby and Rove?
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blondie58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
92. what a soap opera!
Gee- I didn't think that I was into soaps, but this real life soap is fascinating.

Thanks for all you do, H20 man!
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