SICKO - breakfast with republics

[radfringe]

Saturday afternoon we watched SICKO. At first my partner rolled her eyes and sighed "not another political movie..." Within 10 minutes she was glued to it. By the time the movie ended, she said she's going to start researching immigration/jobs/housing etc in Canada.

She called her cousin in CA - told her to go out and rent SICKO. She went on line and ordered a copy of SICKO to send to her brother (brother has been through the ringer with a medical problem for the past 4 years). We gave it to our neighbor to watch.

yesterday, the local volunteer fire department had their monthly fund-raising breakfast. We met up with our neighbor and went there for breakfast. Over breakfast we talked about SICKO.

A guy sitting at the other end of the table started with the standard republic kook-aid rhetoric. "Can't pick your own doctor....bureacrats managing your health...socialized medicine...doctors would get out of medicine...yadda yadda yadda"

I started asking him a few questions - his answers are in bold

Who pays for your health insurance now? "employer, with an employee co-pay"

If for what ever reason you no longer have a job, would the employer continue to provide health insurance? "no"

What would you do, could you afford health insurance for yourself and family? "uhh..uhhh..."

Any medical problems that would be considered pre-existing? High blood pressure, cholesterol, diabetes? "Yeah, but.."

Assuming you could afford an individual plan - you would be denied coverage because of those pre-existing conditions. In a Universal healthcare type coverage - you would still have health coverage. Now about picking your own doctor - let's say you want Dr. Jones, but Dr. Jones is not within your current healthplan's network - can you still go to Dr. Jones without paying 'out of network' fees or needing a referral or pre-approval? "no"

then you really can't pick your own doctor can you? With Universal healthcare, all doctors are included. Now, let's say you have a particular medical problem, your doctor wants to send you to a specialist or for a special test - either you or your doctor has to contact the insurance company for pre-approval and it could be denied because either they won't cover the cost of the test or because the particular specialist is not 'in-network'. So you still can't PICK YOUR OWN DOCTOR.

he snorts the quality of healthcare will go down - me: the united states is ranked 37th in the world, just above Slovania in terms of healthcare services for it's citizens.

there won't be any doctors, they'll stop practicing because they can't make any money - me: well, let me ask you this do you want to be treated by a doctor whose motivation for being a doctor is to make money, or to provide the best he/she can in keeping you healthy? right now, they get bonuses from insurance companies by NOT recommending certain treatments/drugs/procedures - or on the flipside get bonuses from drug companies by prescribing stuff you don't need. Don't know about you, but when I see a doctor I would want to see one that is concerned about the health of his/her patients, not one that is concerned about the health of his/her bank account.

I don't want some bureaucrat making my medical decisions me: who makes them now? some bureaucrat at the insurance company - they decide which doctors you can or cannot see, which procedures you can or cannot have, which medications you can or cannot have, which medical conditions they will cover or not cover. these bureaucrats at the insurance companies get bonuses and promotions by DENYING YOU SERVICES or COVERAGE, and they come out and tell you their first responsibility and obligation is to the STOCKHOLDERS. Our healthcare system is based on concern for profits, not people.

-----------

I may not have changed his mind, but I did see alot of people around us nodding their heads. I did tell the guy to go rent/buy SICKO, watch it, do some research on his own and then make up his own mind.

As we were leaving, one woman came up to us, asked for the name of the movie again, said she wanted to watch it, then told us how her husband lost his job a could of years back and they had no health insurance until he found another job, she was scared out of her wits that during the interim time that she, her husband or kids would need medical attention and how would they pay for it.

[Pushed To The Left]

1. K&R! Even if you didn't convince him, you probably made him think about it

and educated the other people who were there. Sicko is a great movie and really drives the need for universal healthcare home.

[radfringe]

2. probably not

but when I saw people listening in and nodding, although my responses/questions were put to the republic - they were meant to be 'overheard' by those around us, in some cases maybe I was 'preaching to the choir', but I think there were many more who never really thought about it and just bought the republic rhetoric and are now re-thinking...

[Joe Bacon]

56. My family is just as brainwashed

They still spit out the same Republic Party talking points about Socialized Medicine and they still worship the ground Bush walks on because he is God's man.

Me, I'm for Kucinich and this is why:

The main reason is Kaiser gave me a Christmas present that jacked my premiums, copays and prescription costs way up.

And Edwards, Obama, and Hillary are doing everything they can to keep the billionaire pimps that run the insurance rackets in the game. None of them want to rock the boat for Wall Street.

My single issue right now is Single payer and Kucinich is the only one backing it.

Obama has three strikes against him--Tweety, Queen Andy Sullivan and Donny Mc Clurkin all love him, any one of those clowns rings an alarm bell in my head.

Edwards comes off as a chicken who ran away when we needed him in the Senate. He also comes off to me as a bullshit machine. Sorry, but he is the Democratic equivalent of Mitt Romney, he'll say ANYTHING to be president.

And the Whore Press wants Hillary to be the nominee so they can string her up and cut her to pieces. You know that Ad Nags, Shitstained Murray, Whoreen Dowd and her fellow Screw York Times whores like Frank Bitch are just slobbering over the thought of doing the Veg-O-Matic on her.

Not to mention Tweety, Tim the Whore, Katie Whoric, Jim Liar and the George Hamilton clone who does the stenographer in chief chores on NBC...All of them are gonna tear Hillary to pieces. When they get done with her, there won't be enough left to put in a single can of Ken-O-Ration.

Only Kucinich has the guts to stand up to these liars. He will get my vote.

[truedelphi]

57. Should your health go into the questionable category, you will also

Find that for the return on your hard earned dollars, Kaiser obfuscates and delays.

I needed surgery but the Kaiser Doctor talking points always concerned methods of attack that would not have helped much, but would have been cheaper for them and made it look like they cared.

They never even mentioned the surgery that was the actual tretment for my condition.

You have to be on your toes with those people or they will do you in.

While acting very helpful and concerned.

[annabanana]

3. It doesn't really take a lot of convincing if you're talking to someone

with at least one remaining synapse that fires. Everyone has horror stories with the HMOs, or is related to someone with insurance problems, or knows someone who's had something denied...

That movie is a powerful teaching tool.

[tom_paine]

4. This is a great post. K & R and keep speaking out!

Where there is life, there is hope.

[radfringe]

5. thanks!

for us the issue of healthcare has hit home this year. I was laid off from a place I worked at for 9 years. Couldn't afford COBRA on unemployment, so I had no health insurance, fortunately I found a job within a couple of weeks and one of the benefits was health insurance.

At the end of october I was laid off from that job, and lsot my health insurance, but I lucked out again and was working within a month's time and the company provided health insurance

Prior to my second layoff - my partner was laid off, and is still looking for a job. She has no health insurance, and my company doesn't allow domestic partners to be covered under the plans they offer.

Our joke to each other about lack of health insurance is that we are on the Republics Pray-GO plan. PRAY you don't have to GO to the doctor.

She came down with a cold over the weekend, she's a bit worried about what to do if the cold turns into something worse and would normally see a doctor about it.

[lostnfound]

6. "scared out of her wits"

The freedom from being "scared out of one's wits" over the lack of coverage is one of the most attractive parts of a universal healthcare system.
And probably it is one of the reasons why corporate America has retained the responsibility to offer insurance to its employees, rather than banding together to lobby the government for it.

The management of most companies would probably prefer not having to deal with these costs, and would rather hand it over to the government. But would the Fortune 100 lobby for it? Probably not. On the one hand they see it as an advantage for employee retention, and on the other hand, there may well be an oligarchy of the very richest and most staunchly conservative who recognize that a population that is not "scared out of one's wits" is a population that is free to create social turmoil. That oligarchy has voting rights, so to speak.

There is an essay by Mort Zuckerman, the staunch conservative owner of the US News And World Report, which highlights 4 reasons why American economy is "superior" . I ran across it in "The Underground History of American Education", whose author, John Taylor Gatto, wrote this synopsis of the four reasons:

First, says Zuckerman, the American worker is a pushover. That’s my translation, not his, but I think it’s a fair take on what he means when he says the American is indifferent to everything but a paycheck. He doesn’t try to tell the boss his job. By contrast, Europe suffers from a strong "steam age" craft tradition where workers demand a large voice in decision-making. Asia is even worse off, because even though the Asian worker is silenced, tradition and government interfere with what business can do.

Next, says Zuckerman, workers in America live in constant panic; they know companies here owe them nothing as fellow human beings. Fear is our secret supercharger, giving management flexibility no other country has. In 1996, after five years of record profitability, almost half of all Americans in big business feared being laid off. This fear keeps a brake on wages.

Next, in the United States, human beings don’t make decisions, abstract formulas do; management by mathematical rules makes the company manager-proof as well as worker-proof.

Finally, our endless consumption completes the charmed circle, consumption driven by non- stop addiction to novelty, a habit which provides American business with the only reliable domestic market in the world. Elsewhere, in hard times business dries up, but not here; here we shop till we drop, mortgaging the future in bad times as well as good.

Workers at major companies can remain blissfully unaware of how weak their insurance net actually is, and the handful of your coworkers who experience problems with the company-paid insurance usually keep quiet about it. People conclude that the non-workers and between-workers "just need to find a job". People with terminal illnesses who have insurance must work right up until the bitter end so as to not bankrupt their families. How many of them want to spend their last six months on Earth engaged in some other activities, and would gladly forego their salary if they wouldn't also forgo their paycheck? The miserable corollaries to this go on and on.

I suppose "he who would trade freedom for a little security deserve neither.." and all that, but people trade freedom so as to not burden their families or to provide security for their families every day. It is an essential part of being a responsible adult in a family.

There are some tradeoffs that are about more than money and time.

[Progressive Radical]

14. Exactly ...

In the movie SiCKO, an American living in France described the situation thusly:

(Paraphrasing)

In France, the government fears the people whereas in America, the people fear the government and don't speak out.

And that's pretty much the case butressed by one of the British MPs saying (paraphrasing):

That a population that's in debt is not free and that fear is used for control.

Those are two reasons why we do not have universal healthcare. That and we keep electing people that don't advocate for it.

It's pretty simple (to me at least).

[loudsue]

16. Corporations are the biggest problem America has. No government

oversight telling them "no". Corporate personhood has to end in this country if we're going to survive. That, and we need to make lobbying illegal, like it is in many European countries.

:kick:

[Progressive Radical]

18. Agreed. n/t

[mac2]

7. Health care is something

people ignore until they need it. It just isn't there or what is isn't very good. We have a health crisis as many in Congress warned but the media and Republicans ignore it.

President Ronnie "Raygun" started attacking health care twenty or more years ago. They don't care to keep us healthy but to profit off our illness and care. Every thing...I mean everything including your life is for profit.

[radfringe]

8. President Ronnie "Raygun" started attacking health care

true but according to the movie - the whole PRIVATE healthcare system had the blessing of Nixon

[Javaman]

9. national health care is a pipedream...

as long as all the "front runner" candidates take money from the pharma corps and health care insurance companies, it will never happen.

They would never invest in someone that would work against their interests.

this is why it was so easy for hillary to crow about it when bill was prez, she didn't have to answer to the health care insurance companies. Note: that is died down because of repuke associations with those industries.

since her launching of here "health care plan" she has be virtually silent on the issue. Why? because it's a big give away to the insurance companies. Under her plan we are still tied to it.

If we depend on this K street sycophants to do our bidding for health care we are going to end up in the same boat.

However, I will be book marking your threat, because you do speak the truth.

[lame54]

13. Dare to dream, Dare to dream

[radfringe]

33. only if we let remain a dream

it's a pipe dream if we let it remain a dream and not do what we can to make it a reality

of the many things in the movie that hit me, one thing sums up not only the issue of healthcare, but that of the iraq occupation, terrorism, impeachment and a multitude of other issues

we, as americans, fear the government. for all the talk of our freedom, and how great this country is, we live in fear of the government - from the can't fight city hall mentality to fearing impeachment because it may hurt the elections. or fearing to vote only for a candidate we think is "electable" instead on one we believe in.

In Sicko Moore points out how in Europe the government fears the people.

200 years ago, a people had a dream, a pipe dream if you will, of being free. They made it a reality.

this morning - I had to run out to the store to pick up some cold meds for my partner. I'm standing in line at the cashier counter - I can see two cans, wrapped in paper on the counter. There's a slot in the top of each can. One can was asking for donations for a girl with leukima - they needed money for medical expenses the insurance company would not cover. The other was also asking for donations for medical expenses because the family had no health insurance. I dropped in a couple of dollars in each can. On the way out there was a poster announcing a fund raiser to help out yet another family with medical costs.

My dream is for there to be a day when we won't need to put out tin cans and hang posters to pay for medical treatment.

pipe dream - yeah, but it's my pipe to smoke

[dflprincess]

43. As Bush would say

"Heh, heh, isn't that something? Only in America!"

[cynthia]

10. thank you for speaking out on this issue

My college age son is thinking of taking time off from school, but he can't afford health insurance and my policy only covers him if he stays in school. It is an insane system that has to change. Great retorts to that republic's arguments

[Progressive Radical]

11. The next time you see him, give him a copy of this:

The Case For Universal Healthcare

[warren pease]

21. Link doesn't work for me. Can you try reposting or just send me the name...

...of the organization and I'll google it myself. Is that from PNHP, btw? Curious because I haven't seen that on their site yet.

Thanks,

wp

[Progressive Radical]

23. My apologies:

Here's the link (very informative)

http://cthealth.server101.com/the_case_for_universal_health_care_in_the_united_states.htm

[warren pease]

24. Thanks a lot...

On edit: If you haven't already seen this, here's a link to the WHO's 2000 landmark study comparing the health care systems of 190 countries. For just the numbers, download the statistical abstract pdf file. Then read, weep, get pissed and agitate like hell.


wp

[Progressive Radical]

25. Thank you and I will!

[Progressive Radical]

27. Are you referring to the statistical annex?

Thanks!

PR

[warren pease]

29. Yeah, sorry, I meant "annex" ...

Those words starting with "a" always confuse me... :P


wp

[Progressive Radical]

30. LOL ...

No worries. I'm currently in a battle in another thread where I accidentally typed DemocratUnderground instead of DemocraticUnderground. Now I'm being skewered by someone who apparantly doesn't believe in typos, or perhaps that everything is a "Freudian slip."

:silly:

What do you think about the debunking of myths link? Pretty informative, no?

[warren pease]

36. Watch out for the seven deadly DU sins...

... and you just committed one of them with that "democratunderground" typo. You've got to get that post count up asap, so spend some time just replying to posts with a K&R or "Agreed" or "Right on"... or something that doesn't actually require thought. Saves the axons and dendrites for more demanding work.

Another sin would be suggesting that if Hillary is the nominee, you might just stay home. I've been ritually slaughtered over that one several times, although I'm not yet subdued enough to actually vote for that corporatist harridan demonspawn.

And I like that page on debunking myths. Very nice, tight no-nonsense presentation. For the very loooong version, have a look http://www.pnhp.org">here. This organization has been advocating for single-payer for quite a while and only recently have they been getting any traction, largely thanks to Michael Moore, I suppose.

Also, shamelessly tooting my own horn a bit, you might want to have a look at these two articles I did for Online Journal on the utter insanity of allowing for-profit corporations to determine who lives, who recovers, who gets to walk again and who dies.

And here's a third I did on the Canadian system, with much help from actual Canadians here on DU.

If you're not bored beyond tears after reading all this, let me know and I'll dredge up even more stuff. God knows there's volumes of info on single-payer, most of it mercifully free from the spin and corruption of US mass media infotainment.


wp

[Progressive Radical]

39. I very much appreciate it ...

... and I will take your advice as duly noted regarding Hillary. Though, I might just stay home if she's the nominee. No need for me to take part in more of the same. ;)

Anyway, I appreciate the links and will bookmark them for further reading. Healthcare is a serious issue (matter of life and death) and it's about time that we Americans stop thinking we have to pay to live.

Again, much appreciated.

Peace and Happy Holidays to you, my friend.

[B Calm]

12. Great job telling the facts rad.

[Bjorn Against]

15. K&R. You made a argument here, and it is clear you won the debate.

You may not think you had an impact on the guy, but you very likely did. You probably made him think about things he never thought about before, and when people start understanding the facts they will start thinking about these things more thoroughly.

[tom_paine]

17. One more K & R for a good list of "talking points"

Usually I loathe these things, as my core ideal is that people should analyze and think for themselves.

But this is such a good template for a discussion on the topic, and refutations to what are obviously cookie-cutter Bushie Talking Points, that I think it should be seen by everyone.

[radfringe]

37. my core ideal is that people should analyze and think for themselves

mine too - if it's obvious to me, why isn't it them? but then sometimes when you lead a horse to water you have to shove him in it so he knows there's water...

[helderheid]

19. GOOD ON YA! I need to see it. I haven't yet.

[radfringe]

34. when you do see it

just keep things out of your hands that you may want to shred or throw...

my partner wanted to throw and shred everything she could find by the end of the movie...

[walldude]

20. Great job! You may not have changed his mind... yet

but you can bet your ass he's going to be thinking about what you said.. K&R and have a Happy Holiday!

[fascisthunter]

22. OUCH! In One Post You Destroyed the Right's Talking Points

Excellent! And Recommended.

[MadMaddie]

26. Well done....you may have made him think.....but it's the others

that were listening in that's important....you planted a seed with them. They are interested now and they will plant the seed.

When it gets right down to it..if the Rethuglicans can't scream and shut the opposition down their talking points are empty sentences with no facts to back them up.


Ah to have been a fly on the wall..

[Blarch]

28. good for you

I also bought the DVD and passed it around.

[rockymountaindem]

31. There really is no argument against it

The truth is plain to see. Industrialized states with nationalized health care have better quality of care, longer life spans, and spend less as a percentage of national income on health care than the United States, the only industrialized state without nationalized health care. Does anybody think all those statistics are just a coincidence?

[K Gardner]

32. Kudos, and good work ! :-) n/t

[CrispyQ]

35. Error: You've already recommended that thread.

Kick, recommend & bookmarking to make note of your excellent responses. The last one is especially good. They are so afraid of "some bureaucrat" making their health care decisions & don't even realize that that is already the case.

Excellent responses, rad!!

[diane in sf]

38. This is quite elegant, thank you.

[B Calm]

40. I sent the OP to all my e-mail contacts, hope you don't mind!

[shanti]

41. K&R - watching it now!

everyone should watch this!

[MindMatter]

42. We need to be prepared to address a key point

When we talk about a government-run single-payer system, we really are talking about a big bureaucracy. People on the other side have bad experiences with government bureaucracies, and automatically have a hostile stand. Debacles like the Walter Reed mess don't help build confidence that putting government in charge is the answer.

I think Michael Moore occasionally touches on the best way to frame this. Instead of arguing for the system being government run, we should be arguing to take the profit motive out of the system. Going one step further, profits are not the enemy. The enemy is a system that give the profits to the companies who are most effective at WITHHOLDING CARE. That's the problem.

Personally, I don't think it is realistic or necessary to demand that the whole system be run by government, and that may not even be desirable. I believe the thing we should be fighting for is a system that takes the profit out of denying care. I'd be OK with a for-profit system as long as the profits go to the providers that give the most efficient care and have the best health outcomes.

That is a fight we can win. Why fight the battle we cannot possibly win?

[dodger501]

45. One word response for this:

Medicare.
Already in place and it works. If only people would stop trying to defraud them so much.

[MindMatter]

52. OK, but let's take it one step further

Medicare is not a "government program". Well, it is a government program of sorts, but the government doesn't actually administer any of the care, and much of the administration is actually outsourced to private businesses. That is a formula that can work. We should not be demanding a "government program", per se. That only alienates people we need on our side, and it isn't going to happen anyway.

We should be putting all our focus on achieving 100% coverage and eliminating the incentives to deny care. Some public-private partnership is OK if the incentives are the right ones. For the private businesses, we need incentives for efficient, economical service with the best health outcomes. We need a system that eliminates the incentive for cherry-picking and over-prescribing the most expensive medicines. We probably cannot achieve this without fundamental reforms in the pharmaceutical industry. Instead of allowing these companies to spend twice as much money on marketing as they do on R&D, we should change their world to get them focused on producing the best medicines at the lowest cost possible. More researchers. Fewer cute young ladies visiting every doctor's office weekly flirting with the docs and handing out the free samples.

[dflprincess]

44. As far as the "doctors not making money" arguement goes.

You're points were excellent, but you could also mention that the British doctors Moore interviewed seemed quite happy with their incomes.

[radfringe]

48. that did cross my mind

if he had continued with the "not make any money" argument I would have brought up that point.

I remember seeing some commercial years and years ago, don't remember what it was about - but there was a series of 'snapshots' of 20-somethings being interviewed for a job. the commercial opened with an HR person asking "why do you want this job". the 20-somethings replied "I want to help people", "I'm a people person", "I care about people" etc.

I'm just wondering, if you asked high schoolers and those in college why they want to be a doctor/nurse/etc - how many would say "I want to make oodles of money" as opposed to "I want to help people"

[Roland99]

46. EXCELLENT retort!!

[orleans]

47. great post--breakfast with republiks (what a drag)

after all that talk and he still wasn't convinced you should have put a breakfast pancake on his head

[cyclezealot]

49. This is a conversation we need engage

to the right wingers. Questions I doubt they ask themselves.

[radfringe]

50. this thread in GP also brings up another point

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3884762

when we hear someone advocating mandatory health insurance (much like you are forced to buy car insurance if you own a car) - we have to be careful

health insurance is NOT health care...

big difference between universal health INSURANCE and universal health CARE

[truedelphi]

58. Thank you for that piece of advice.

California is about to go into the mode of looking into Single Payer Universal Health INSURANCE.

One of the things is that it will be on the ballot, probably Nov 08, so people will have to really educate themselves as to all the ins and outs. I am sure the insurance industry will spend hundreds of millions to make this bill the one they want.

And they are capping the amount that the insurance companies can take at 20%.

But it is obvious to most of us on DU that the first thing that should ahppen is to get RID OF THE FRIGGIN' Insurance COmpanies.

Period.

[Vinca]

51. You made an excellent argument. Every time I encounter a

Republican with the old socialized medicine mantra I get mad and flustered. Although I might have turned my neighbor's mind around when he heard we couldn't afford health insurance anymore. People assume people "like them" are just fine and it's only the really poor people who can't afford insurance.

[radfringe]

53. we're in that boat with my partner

she's been laid off since September - and we can't afford the premiums to get her an individual policy. What we can afford has such a high deductible and no prescription that it's useless.

[radfringe]

54. neighbors watched SICKO

late yesterday afternoon, the husband called us to tell us they were going to hang onto the movie one more day - tonight (thursday) they are having a few relatives over to watch it.

he said packing up and moving to Canada immediately isn't a possibility - it is something to think about.

[truedelphi]

55. I am downloading your responses. Wow!

Right on the money.

[CorpGovActivist]

59. Kick + Happy New Year! n/t