I'll Get Flamed For This I Know

[SPKrazy]

why is it necessary to broad brush a whole belief/religion such as Christianity based on the actions of the most fundamentalist of its believers?

I'm rather an eclectic person spiritually.

The Jesus action figure doll is weird. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=7233259&mesg_id=7233259 I mean, I don't get why anyone would want one in the first place.

I just read through that thread though and it struck me that while everyone is laughing at the doll and the silliness of it all, it also comes across in a way that people might be laughing at the religion.

We all have a right to believe what we do or don't want to believe.

Democrats and progressives come in all stripes when it comes to that fact.

So I just thought I'd ask, and I'm donning my flame suit, I have been flamed before, and will be again.

:hi:

[KitchenWitch]

1. Good post, K&R

[SPKrazy]

8. Hi Kitchy

:hi:

thanks

[Patsy Stone]

2. It isn't

:hi:

[SPKrazy]

6. I agree

:hi:

[JerseygirlCT]

3. I've often found that a broad brush is the resort of those who don't

care to look too closely into something. Simple answers are what is sought, instead of something closer to truth.

No flames here.

[SPKrazy]

4. Hey you!

I remember you from R/T!

:hi:

I think you are right

[JerseygirlCT]

19. Hey yourself!

Nice to "see" you!

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SPKrazy]

11. that's not my intention

or job

i asked a question

so you are saying that you will think "all" Christians are a few cards short of a full deck, alienate fellow Dems, DUers etc.

I think that the fact that a lot of people consider themselves to be "Christians" and they aren't all believers in supernatural phenomenon either.

[Danger Mouse]

71. a few cards short of a few deck?

that's just insulting.

[D-Sooner]

74. I assume you'd say the same thing

about Jews and Muslims?

[fizzgig]

79. all christians are crazy?

what about those who view the bible as an allegory, not something to be taken word-for-word?

what about those who follow teachings to love others as you love yourself, to be kind and compassionate?

and really? what the hell does it matter to you what beliefs i may or may not hold? if i don't try to convert you, why are you working yourself up over it?

i would say that you aren't playing with a full deck because you would rather just resort to implying that all people of one faith are crazy than engage in civil discourse. do you feel the same way about jews? muslims? hindus?

[Danger Mouse]

82. he doesn't have the guts to say it about jews muslims and hindus

i guarantee it.

[gatorboy]

83. Is it your intention to divide the party?

Do you even care? Why are you even here then? It's suppose to be a community of different individuals, of different beliefs. It's what makes the Democratic party members (Maybe not necessarily the politicians) unique. Why try to break that down?

[boston bean]

7. You sir, are against the atheists. I know it. It's a damn good thing you are

wearing that flame suit, cause god aint gonna help you.

[SPKrazy]

9. Oh I See

bring me here for the slaughter did you?

:rofl:

[boston bean]

14. Just the primrose path! enjoy!!! nt

rofl:

[mmonk]

10. I think people are at the end of their rope

with the militant Christianity that is so vocal now. It's a reaction, especially given the downward spiral in this country. I'm about to give to an organization formed by a religion (American Friends Service Committee). Whenever I get frustrated on the assault on the constitution that many Churches back, I think of them (AFSC) to remind me that all shouldn't be painted with the same brush.

[SPKrazy]

13. I understand that frustration

believe me

I live in the frickin' buckle of the bible belt

I live in the reddest part of a now blue state (Arkansas)

the democrats here are sometimes of all stripes religiously (or non-religiously)

[JerseygirlCT]

26. Yes, and those people make

many, many Christians (I'd venture to say nearly all here) nuts and angry and sad, too. It's really important to keep in mind that though they're very loud and ugly, they're outliers. They absolutely do not represent the vast majority of Christians.

[Danger Mouse]

72. i'm sick of hearing it, myself.

i look around and wonder 'what the hell happened to my faith? who are these people?'
ugh.

[goodgd_yall]

87. Yes, a good reply.

[NightWatcher]

12. Broad brushes are for lazy artists

I harrass people on an individual basis.

[SPKrazy]

16. and that is a good point

thanks

:hi:

[mmonk]

17. Lol

I have to remember that one.

[JerseygirlCT]

28. LOL

Good philosophy!

(I think)

[Gregorian]

34. That's great.

I'll remember that one.

[TZ]

15. Broad brushing is wrong of course..but people are angry

I think there are some real reasons why people attack Christianity on this board....If one is abused by a group long enough, its hard to not feel the whole group is bad...Which is why I wrote this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2451173
BTW- I have had comments made by people who weren't self identified fundies as well....

[SPKrazy]

18. I've experienced severe religious bigotry

and feel anger and resentment that is better today than it was 20 years ago

but not healed

yet I know that many people I care about, Democrats, do consider themselves Christians.

I don't harbor the anger towards them for the Jerry Falwell's of the world, or worse yet, the asshole from Kansas, can't think of his name, who hates gays and protests at soldiers funerals

[TZ]

20. Its Fred Phelps you are thinking about

And its good that you don't harbor anger..I try not to, but its really hard right now. I think that for a lot of people its very very hard to get past that anger. I post in the atheists group and yes, there are some very angry people. Even here, I find myself getting very angry and resentful of some things believers say...I do try to be as nice as possible..but sometimes...its hard...

[SPKrazy]

23. I harbor some

but there was a time when I wanted to do terrible things to people who wanted to push their religion on me

now I just shut the door and say no thanks

other things well, they still hurt

Fred Phelps is who I'm thinking of

:hi:

[Danger Mouse]

78. You shouldn't have to feel like that. Nobody should have to feel like that.

In this country, in this day and age, you'd think we'd get past this medieval shit. Yet still atheists are painted as some kind of bogeyman...look at Romney's comments, trying to kiss up to fundies by bashing atheists. I find it absolutely infuriating, I don't understand why other Christians feel so threatened by atheists...yet I used to have a negative view of them as well, back when I was younger and stupider.
It makes me very sad, though, that gays and atheists have to listen to intolerant fundie bullshit. Who are they, anyway, to judge? Do they even read one word of Jesus' teachings?

[bobbolink]

58. Damned good thing, then, that Martin Luther King didn't encourage

broad-brush anger at all whities, eh?

[Chulanowa]

73. Being white is not a declaration of philosophy, is it?

Being a Christian, however, makes several statements.
"My god is the only god and he created the universe and everything in it" for starters
"I need to spread the 'good news,' whether it's wanted or not!" is a pretty basic one
"My god incarnated himself as a Jewish rabbi in 33 BC" is another.
"Through the extended and eternal betrayal, torture, desecration, and eventual murder of my god-man, all MY sins are washed away" is kind of the core belief
"My god will come back to massacre all the Jews and heathens and unbelievers of this world to cast them down into eternal torment - except for me!" is also a belief - at least of those Christians who don't saladbar.

To claim Christianity is to declare that you believe the Bible is fully applicable, in some shape or form, to modern life. Much as declaring yourself a communist means that you believe the Communist Manifesto.

[SPKrazy]

120. utter nonsense

I own a car

do you?

what does that tell you about my car? nothing except that i have one

I'm not a christian myself, but at one time i was

i didn't accept all the doctrine of the sect i belonged to

there are so many sects out there

how can you generalize so freely?

i have a car.

tells you practically nothing

someone says "I'm a Christian" tells you little, but you have a preconceived idea that you stated very clearly

utter nonsense

i was never that kind of christian neither were the people i went to church with, in several different places and times, and even denominations

you identify doctrinal ideas of maybe some brands of Christianity

my car has 6 cylinders

some have 4

some have 8

some have 2 doors

some have 4 doors

etc.

:eyes:

[Alcibiades]

143. That's the point exactly

As you well know, certain flavors of evangelical/pentecostal/fundamentalists/Baptists have rebranded the entire concept of Christianity. They only recognize each others as Christian, and demonize Catholics and other sects. They have been so successful at this rebranding that "Christian" has come to take on this meaning, even in the popular culture.

It has been other Christians who have let them do this, largely by underestimating the reach and appeal of these churches, most of which, in the past, were seen as cults for the poor and marginalized by established mainline churches.

[Danger Mouse]

127. Yes, because every single christian believes the exact thing.

:eyes:

[SPKrazy]

138. you know you do

:P

just like everyone that owns a car has a fiat

[timtom]

177. Would that be

a divine fiat?

[Chulanowa]

170. Find me a Christian that believes different then.

One that Doesn't believe in a single supreme god.
One that doesn't believe "spreading the word" is a good thing.
One that doesn't believe Jesus is the son of god
One that doesn't believe Jesus died for their sins

I'll grant you it may be pretty easy to find Christians that scoff at the Book of Revelations - But you'll find lots that don't, as well.

You find me all these things, and whatever you found, is not a Christian. A Christian non-monotheist who doesn't proselytize and who believes Jesus was just a dude who's death has no significance... isn't a Christian. These are the definitive traits of the entire religion.

[SPKrazy]

172. snap

another broad generalization of associating doctrine with individual beliefs

i know plenty of people who are "Christians" and attend churches who don't think such literal interpretation is accurate.


you are too general

I could introduce you to Bishop Spong if I knew him

google him

[Chulanowa]

173. I know of and like the guy

But the theology he espouses is for all intents and purposes, a new religion. What he's going for is a philosophical religion with a base on the four gospels of the New Testament, rather than the theistic revealed religion that is Christianity - A religion that has the traits I outlined as its core. To quote yourself, google it.

If you don't believe these basics, you technically aren't a Christian. Contrary to your vehement opposition to reality, words have actual, fixed definitions, and "Christian" is defined thusly.

[Kajsa]

188. SPK, i did just that--

http://www.livingthequestions.com/xcart/home.php?cat=352&gclid=CO-Eh_GEo5ACFSZbiAodTmiyqQ

fron that one quote alone, he outlines where I stand

“Jesus calls you to be whole, not religious. Jesus calls you to be real, not religious. Jesus calls you to be loving, not moral and righteous. Jesus calls you to be inclusive, not hating everybody that disagrees with you and claiming your superiority over them. That’s what this Jesus portrait is about and that’s why people believed that they experienced all that God is in the life and in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.”
-John Shelby Spong
From Jesus for the Non-Religious DVD

a yes, I'm technically a Christian.
I attend a church that follows the beliefs he outlines above.
I can't remember that last time I heard the word 'sin' uttered
there. I'm SERIES!
We come in many flavors.

[Marrah_G]

189. Okay you have named 4 traits. I agree on 3 of them.

I still don't see what issue you have with those beliefs or why people are somehow bad for believing them.

Could you explain your positions more please?

[bobbolink]

195. I'm sure you got the point.

If all the great civil rights leaders had condemned all but their "own kind", what kind of world would it be now?

Yet, it's OK with DU to condemn belief systems.

Now, I'm *sure* you understand, right?

[Blashyrkh]

21. I'm as tolerant of others, as others are of me.

Christians are some of the most intolerant people on the planet. Just the same as most members of religions that preach obedience and control.

I mean, a religion that has grown and expanded over centuries based on persecution, fear, intolerance and control wants everyone to be nice to them.

Fuck 'em.

If you don't like your religion being (rightly) criticised, find a better religion.

[SPKrazy]

25. "Christians are some of the most intolerant people on the planet"

speaking of broad brushes

i never said it was my religion either as you obviously didn't read my post

:hi:

[Blashyrkh]

45. The last sentence was generalised, not directed at you personally.

And I don't care.

[SPKrazy]

48. not really

and okay :P

[Danger Mouse]

76. Yet your post shows you are clearly intolerant.

How can you expect tolerance from others if you are not willing to return the favor?
You get what you give.

[Blashyrkh]

131. What am I going to learn from someone who lets religion dictate their lives?

Sure, I might get a nice cake recipe, but I'm not going to get the answers to the questions I want to ask.

Say, you're fairly intolerant of people who are intolerant.

[Danger Mouse]

136. Why should you have to learn anything from them?

Just live and let live.
If they're assholes to you, then they're pathetic and not worth your time.
And I don't know that I let religion dictate my life, but that's not the case for your garden variety fundie.

[slackmaster]

22. I'm kind of eclectiastical myself

I used to be Presbyterian, now I'm just Presbyopic.

We all have a right to believe what we do or don't want to believe.

Amen to that, Southpawkicker. I think getting uptight about someone else's personal beliefs can lead to health problems.

[SPKrazy]

27. I agree

I think that live and let live

what do we want as Democrats (as opposed to DUers who aren't all Dems I realize)

do we want to alienate those who we disagree with?

[Nictuku]

41. I'm with you on that....

I have always felt that one should respect other's beliefs, especially if you want them to respect yours (or non belief).

It is all very personal, and while I can't speak for others, Religion seems to me to be a personal thing. I don't need to convince anyone to believe what I do, and I certainly don't wish to be proselytized.

That is it. Kind of plain and simple, but that is the way I like it.

[varkam]

24. My .02 (and that's about all it's worth)

I don't think that most non-theists genuinely think that all Christians can be painted with a broad brush, but a pseudonymous online discussion forum doesn't really let that shine through. I also think a lot of people's issues are with Christianity, and not Christians as people. Of course, that is a very subtle point that is hard to make when tensions are running high and ad homs are being slung back and forth.

There is a lot of anger out there, though. As another poster pointed out, a lot of the anger coming from us unwashed heathens is probably blowback from the creeping theocracy we've all been witnessing over the past several years, being told repeatedly that we cannot be moral without god, that we will burn in hell, etcetera etcetera. That isn't to excuse or justify incivility, but merely to explain it.

For what it is worth, I may disagree with you on the unknown (and perhaps the unknowable), and you may disagree with me. I think it is important to keep in mind though, that religion or lack thereof is not all that comprises us. There are a great deal of things on which you and I undoubedtly agree (like the necessity of getting our Pretzledent out of the White House). That is not to say that we shouldn't talk about these things, because I have found discussions on religion to be very intellectually rewarding - but only to keep in the back of our minds, somewhere, that we are supposed to be friends here.

Just my .02.

[JerseygirlCT]

30. My .02:

Your two cents is worth far more than that!

[SPKrazy]

31. great post

worth more than .02

we are all working for the same thing (or should be)

a non theocratic nation

personally I don't know any liberal democrats who are Christians that are for a theocracy, they are appalled by that very thought, yet they are Christians.

[TZ]

40. there you go again....

Causing trouble with your thoughtful and rationale posts!!:) :hi:

[varkam]

44. I know. I can't stop myself.

I'm gonna get tombstoned. I can feel it. :D

[Kajsa]

165. Varkam, you are rational.

that post was worth a lot more than 2 cents, my friend!

:pals:

[Canuckistanian]

47. You've got it backwards

"I also think a lot of people's issues are with Christianity, and not Christians as people."

No, I have issues with people who think they're Christians merely because they mouth the words and practice none of them.

I have no big issue with Christianity. Indeed, I think it's probably the most compassionate religion existing.

It's just a shame that a lot of it's practitioners actually break more commandments than observe them.

[varkam]

53. Note, though, that I did not say every issue is with Christianity and not with Christians as people.

I know that there are many people who feel as you say - that they are fed up with the hypocrisy of individuals who say they are Christians but yet don't seem to take to any of the central teachings.

But, again, there are also a lot of people who have a problem with Christianity as a religion or a philosphical system whose issues have little to do with the individual adherents.

[madrchsod]

29. yes it is

people have to find something to belittle and if it`s not religion it would be something else. i am at a loss why they would waste their time in ridiculing me or any member of the du who are religious. i guess that it makes them feel superior to other people.

if people think that a talking jesus is ok, well have at it...my jesus would prefer you would give the money to those in need

[SPKrazy]

35. yeah, a talking Jesus

:eyes:

I agree with your sentiments

[BuyingThyme]

32. But why would somebody join a broad-brush religion like Christianity?

[SPKrazy]

33. I think that is a rather broad brush statement

about a broad brush idea

there are so many "brands" of Christianity

so many wars fought within the bounds of a "religion" that some people paint as being all the same

we live in a land of freedom where people have the right to believe or not believe

now I lost my point dammit :P

anyway

carry on

[BuyingThyme]

36. Yeah, but they're all called "Christianity."

That's the brush I was referring to (to which I was referring).

[SPKrazy]

39. Gotcha

I guess the name

has many varieties

:shrug:

[timtom]

178. I'm not believin'

the incredible sophistication and complexity of your thought processes.

It's like watching a flipping cartoon made in the 1930's with the dancing cows and dancing trees.

[BuyingThyme]

190. If you actually felt that way, would you be compelled to post?

[alarimer]

37. If religious people don't want to be tarred with that brush

They need to start condemning in the strongest possible terms the hatred and bigotry of their brethren on the right. But they generally do not. I am with Richard Dawkins in that I do not feel the need to respect anyone's beliefs, especially dangerously ignorant ones. Faith is no more deserving of automatic respect than lack of it is.

I am really tired of Christians (in the majority in this country) complaining about being treated badly. I will declare victory for rationalism the day a candidate for President can openly declare his or her atheism. Until then I have to seethe in silence as people of "faith" are pandered to and the wall of separation between church and state continues to erode.

[SPKrazy]

42. I wonder what percentage of Democratic Christians

are the ones complaining though?

:shrug:

seems that while I get where you are coming from, I think that we all need to sit back and think of what we want from our country.

i don't want a theocracy

i want a country where my child can go to school and not be led in prayer

i want a country where our president doesn't claim that "God" is telling him to attack other countries

to get there

we have to work together

there are some very rational liberal Christians if you can drop the idea that they are all the same

[alarimer]

119. Not too many, that's true

I don't think the liberal Christians are the ones we as a nation have to worry about. Working together is fine as long as everyone recognizes that this is not a Christian nation. I also believe that the First Amendment guarantees freedom from religion as well as freedom of religion. As it stands right now, non-believers and people who have other non- Christian faiths are not allowed to run for office (and be honest about their beliefs). So all those moderate Christians and Jews and whomever else need to stand up and help us.
We need to rid this country of the radical, religious right. And I blame moderate Christians (and Republicans, naturally) for not standing up to these radicals enough to marginalize them.

[Danger Mouse]

81. I do condemn on a daily basis the shit that rabid fundies do.

I despise fred phelps and his sleazy spawn. I have to laugh when Christians complain about being oppressed...you won't hear a liberal christian do that, it's always fundies...and why? Because they think they have the right to shove their faith down everyone else's throat and not have to acknowledge that other faiths exist.
That kind of 'logic' infuriates me.

[Bake]

193. I'm right there with you, Elrond!

I despise the actions of the Phelpses, Falwells (RIP), Haggards (good riddance), et al. And I DO decry them on a daily basis. As a liberal Christian, frankly, I became a liberal because of the teachings of Christ (I know some of you just can't fathom that!). As did most of my liberal Christian friends. None of us like being lumped in with the Phelpses et al. And none of US feel like we're being persecuted.

Someone asked whether it is possible for a Christian to have a civil conversation with a non-theist ... it is certainly possible. I do it on a daily basis. It's founded upon a mutual respect between the parties. Of course that mutual respect isn't exactly illustrated when someone starts ridiculing my faith in "some Invisible Cloud Being" (I think that's the term that was popular around here a while back).

Bake

[spoony]

179. Nothing like adding extortion to bigotry

[A-Schwarzenegger]

38. Thanks.

:hi:

[SPKrazy]

43. sure

:shrug:

:hi:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

50. thanks ... for your tolerant & heartfelt post ...

which was more important to me than the question. Peace.

[SPKrazy]

51. peace

:hi:

[The Backlash Cometh]

46. I know the answer to that!

Because the radicals like to speak for all Christians, and since no one steps up to contradict them, we have to assume there is a lot of herd thinking going on.

For example, the evangelicals have been trying to break the separation of church and state, claiming that our country is a Christian nation. Do you hear any church leaders disagreeing with them? No? Then what are we left to assume?

[SPKrazy]

49. "Church leaders"

as if all Christians are under one roof

there are lots of outspoken Christian leaders speaking out

the news media chooses who it covers, why?

guess they aren't so damned liberal after all :shrug:

[The Backlash Cometh]

54. But there *is* herd thinking. If you repeat something long enough, it

becomes true. In church at Xmas time last year they were pushing the crap that there was a war on Christmas. They were saying this during the sermons! And those sermons are not a debate. People walk away with that stuff engraved in their brains. And, yes, they repeat it.

[Danger Mouse]

80. I know that I step up all the time to speak out against that kind of garbage...

but who's going to listen to me?
I have a small sunday school class, and at the very least I do my best to impart peace and love and tolerance on them...rather than bible thumping.

[The Backlash Cometh]

84. Keep up the good work.

[gatorboy]

85. Help me with a Bible story.

I remember it from Sunday School but can't remember exactly what book it's in. There's a story about Jesus in the house of worship and there's a taxman (I think he was a taxman) who is quietly worshiping on his own. Another group is praying loudly just so everyone can hear just how holy they are. But Jesus chooses to pray with the man who is humble rather than with the blowhards.

[Danger Mouse]

88. It's essentially that. Jesus acknowledges that the tax man's profession of faith is more meaningful.

because it is done with sincerity rather than for show.
It's not just how loud you shout your faith, it's what's in your heart.

[gatorboy]

95. I brought it up because it basically pegs down the problem we have.

The fundamentalists are the Pharisee. They are very proud of just how holy they are and they want everyone to know it. Then you have Christians much like those on this board, who, like the taxman, pray for their own personal choices humbly, quietly.

I've heard people here ask why the "moderate" Christians don't pray louder, but they don't seem to understand that THAT is not the point.

[Danger Mouse]

116. Well, I've always said it matters most what's in your heart...

personally, I do not feel myself to be a 'good' christian...i am constantly ruminating on all of the bad choices i make.
but ideally, love and understanding and tolerance, big parts of christianity, practiced by so few fundies...sigh

[Critters2]

89. There are leaders disagreeing with them.

But they don't get invited on Larry King.

[SPKrazy]

140. unless

they have seen God herself :rofl:

[Lex]

52. I hardly ever use my broad brush.

See?




:)

[MedleyMisty]

55. No flames, but people have the right to laugh at religion

People deserve respect, not beliefs. Individual humans and beliefs shared by a wide group are actually two separate entities and one can respect an individual human while ridiculing a widely held belief.

Okay, like today at work I had to go to this house and ask about a key. The nicest sweetest old man was there. There was a cross on the house and a sign stuck to the front door with a quote about his house obeying the Lord or something. And during the conversation he said that "Everybody has to have children", but not in a loud shouting you must do exactly what I do way but rather in a shrugging gotta deal with the people renting the house next door having kids kind of way.

Anyway, the point is that I just smiled and nodded and was very nice and respectful to him because he was a gentle and sweet old man.

And afterwards I was thinking about the differences in interaction on the net and IRL. I think that maybe a lot of DU'ers come here expecting real life interaction, where people use social grease and are polite and respectful and don't say what they really think. Especially DU'ers who are members of powerful groups like white people or males or Christians and are not used to being challenged.

But the net is not the world of face to face individuals. The net is a world made of ideas and concepts and beliefs, independent of the people who hold them. Here, everything is fair game. There is no IRL social interaction to grease - I don't depend on any of you for anything and I am free to put people on ignore or hide threads or go to another site at any time so it's not like a family get together where you'd be imprisoned with people who were angry with you for a while if you just let your real thoughts go.

The net in general and discussion sites like DU in particular are, or at least ideally should be, realms of pure thought and honest open discussion. And I think that's a shock to people who aren't used to free expression and the questioning and examining and criticizing, and yes, ridiculing, of widely held and accepted opinions and beliefs and ideas. I like to think that once they get over the shock and the vapors and the "OMG, you can't say that!", they learn something and gain some empathy with people who don't think the same way that they think.

That's also why TPTB are trying like hell to shut the net down.

Note for the reading comprehension challenged - I don't mean stuff like "OMG, Xtians are teh suck.", but just honest open talk about religion that may include laughing at the belief if you find it funny. Which is not the same thing as personally seeking out an individual who calls herself or himself Christian and pointing at them and going "Ha ha."

[PassingFair]

64. Good post, Slee.

In real time, face to face, I generally just nod or mumble something.
I usually don't have the time or the inclination for confrontation.

Not that I ALWAYS sit still for it, mind you.....

[SPKrazy]

169. I think atheism is funny

it makes no sense to me

it makes me laugh

but i don't look down on anyone who has no beliefs

i have come up with my beliefs after many years of sifting through them

questioning

reasoning

my conclusions are different is all on one area

i don't believe my beliefs or anyone else's have a place in government

i don't believe that rabidly atheistic people should push their non-belief in government either\

let's let government govern people so they have freedom of and freedom from religion

[Hoof Hearted]

176. You make a good point, but those who express "ha ha" "amusement " - as you put it -

towards spirituality here on DU rarely demonstrate the civility you claim as example.

[porphyrian]

56. Oh, all you people suck! People who believe things are stupid!

:evilgrin:

[Raine]

57. Agree

I'm an agnostic but sometimes I hate the continually dumping on Christians. Jesus no matter what one believes seems to be a really OK guy.

[CT_Progressive]

59. Because it teaches its followers to kill those of a different faith.

Its just that most followers "choose" to ignore that part of the book. But its still in their book.

Its like being in the KKK and saying "But I actually like black people." Bzzt. Sorry. You're still a member of a racist group.

Religion teaches you to forego logic and rationality for blind faith in a divine being, and that you can't be moral or good unless you live your life according to the teachings of the faith. Sorry, thats total crap. I live completely moral and ethical life without a single shred of religion in my bones.

Religion offers us nothing whatsoever of real world value. I am smart enough to know that Man does not understand everything, and may never. I'm ok with that. I don't need to "invent" an invisible super-being to explain everything that I don't (yet) understand. I know that's just my mind's way of expressing fear of the unknown. And I've overcome that feeling.

[SPKrazy]

62. somehow i grew up

without those ideas

but i know people that think that way

it is scary

[Danger Mouse]

70. I don't recall learning about that in Sunday school.

The bible has some sick stuff in it, and I can't even read the Old Testament without getting depressed. It's just awful. Passages of the Bible pretty much condone genocide, and there's really no good reason why. I'll be the first to point out that the Bible is a work of man, because if it's the work of God, then it is a very very scary God.
It has some really lovely passages. Some great teachings on compassion, giving to the poor, accepting those that are different from you, etc.
And it has all of this awful stuff too. I don't believe that morality requires faith of any kind. I believe that morality requires morality. I don't believe everyone has to believe what I do.
There are a lot of Christians out there who would disagree with me, but hey, don't put us all in the same boat.
We're all individuals, we're all different.

[SPKrazy]

90. well said!

:hug:

cookie cutter approaches to understanding a religious belief or set of actually many diverse beliefs don't work

it's like if you have a hammer, and that is your only tool for perception, then i guess everything starts to look like a nail.

Diversity man, it's what it is all about

where's the tolerance for that in this forum these days?

:shrug:

[Danger Mouse]

100. Thanks...

I get infuriated when constantly i have beliefs attributed to 'all' christians that i do not have.

[SPKrazy]

126. btw

are you packed for the rapture

:P

i know what you mean man

and i'm not even a Christian

:hi:

[Danger Mouse]

130. oh sure, any day now, but my ass would be left behind, i just know it =P

i'm one hell of a flawed individual.

[Kajsa]

148. Hi Elrond!

If that rapture ever comes,
I'm SOL!

I've got waaay too many flaws to be picked up and
carried away.

Nope, I'm one of those weird Christians who believes ( and knows for
a fact it's not BS) in second chances and forgiveness. I'm living proof
of that.


The fundies are heretics, plain and simple.

They haven't strayed from the flock, they were never in it
to begin with. They wouldn't know Christ's teachings if they
were hit over the head with them. Fundies=Heretics.

They make him weep.

:hug:

[Danger Mouse]

149. you're one of the good ones...

:hug:

[Kajsa]

Right back, atcha!

:hug:

[Danger Mouse]

154. i have trouble seeing myself as good by any stretch of the word...

but thank you.
:hug:

[Kajsa]

155. You are a very good person, Elrond!

You have shown that many times.

:hug:

[Danger Mouse]

158. meh, ask the many people that i've used neglected or hurt how good a person i am...

i am sure they will not have nice things to say.
i won't lie to myself about myself.

[Kajsa]

161. Like I said,

I'm a big believer in second chances and making amends.

It really works.

;)

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Danger Mouse]

So now you equate being a christian to being in the KKK?

how classy of you.
i don't need to justify anything to you.
would you say the same about muslims? hmmm?

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Danger Mouse]

157. as far as i know, islam judaism and christianity do not 'officially' promote killing other people.

just because it's in the Bible, Torah, or Koran, doesn't make it 'official' unless you believe in inerrancy, which i do not.
again, lumping religions in with the kkk is completely without class and offensive.

[CT_Progressive]

159. Sorry, thats complete bullshit.

The Pope has refused to remove those passages from the Bible.
The bible is the official "word of God" that all Christians MUST FOLLOW.

The same is true for the Torah and Koran.

Its totally indefensible and you damn well know it.

[Danger Mouse]

162. i won't defend the passages of the bible that glorify genocide, because i can't.

they're sick, they're wrong, but they're there.
and like i said, as far as it being 'must follow' and all of that, it depends on if you believe in inerrancy.

[Pushed To The Left]

60. K&R! I agree 100% n/t

[SPKrazy]

61. thanks

:hi:

[Ino]

63. After being brought up Catholic...

...8 years of Catholic grade school, 4 years of Catholic high school, dressing up like a child bride for First Communion, going to Mass 6x/week, religion class 5x/week, Stations of the Cross every Friday during Lent, confession 1x/month, rosary every week during something-or-other, being pulled out of class to sing at funerals, learning to "defend my faith" from the "public school hoodlums," etc. etc....

...then painfully learning to think for myself with NO support, dealing with the guilt brainwashed into me...

I've earned the right to laugh my ass off at the religion and those who believe in it if I damn well want to.

[SPKrazy]

65. and laughing is your right

and i wouldn't take that away

my point is that as Democrats who want to keep the house and senate and take the presidency need to remember that a lot of voters are Christians

we just don't want to support a government that is a Christian one

does that make sense?

I grew up in a screwy world too

so i value your right and mine to have the freedom not to be forced to believe anything

i guess i'm just saying

peace

[gatorboy]

69. Aw man!

And we almost had the love-in.

[ileus]

66. Christians are the devil don't ya know?

[fizzgig]

67. what did you dooooooooooooooo!?!!/!/

seriously, i think you make some good points.

it can be difficult to separate the tree from the forest, if you will.

there are going to be unpleasant/nasty/horrible/etc. people in any group, but i am not going to judge the group based on the actions of those people.

i can understand the frustration at the religious right/evangelicals/whatever, but how do du'ers react when it is another group? what if it is glbt or women? i am not going to say there are not people who don't make or agree with such statements, but the backlash is much more severe.

i know christians who practice love, compassion, giving and other basic tenants of the faith. i am not going to lump those good people in with those who spew rapid and illogical hate.

[Danger Mouse]

68. You won't get any flames from me. Excellent post.

:hug:
We're all in this together...people of faith are progressives, too.
I loathe people like Phelps and Falwell who have made a mockery of my religion.

[MilesColtrane]

75. "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of ANYTHING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE

...or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments." -Exodus 20:4-6

The toy's manufacture issued a press release saying that since Pat Robertson attached a signing statement to the first commandment the Jesus doll was A-OK. (and a great Christmas gift)

[gatorboy]

77. I guess George Burns is SCREWED! n/t

[Critters2]

93. That's exactly what I thought when I saw that doll.

I don't own a single picture of Jesus, because I don't want some artist telling me what he looked like.
I do think there's a danger of idolatry--loving the Jesus who looks like me. So, I think this doll is a sacrilege on several levels.

[goodgd_yall]

86. Some people are still in the rebellious stage

They may have been brought up in a religion they now reject and have a lot of resentment.

You can choose to focus on the bad every religion has done, in which case it's all bad and open to ridicule. Or you might acknowledge there is some good that has come from religions and decide it's not fair to ridicule anything and everything about every religion.

I used to ridicule it all (and I admit I had some issues with the particular religion I grew up in), but I don't "paint with a broad brush" as much as I used to, and that's not only in religion.

[SPKrazy]

96. and i relate to that well

you speak truth

all religions have had literalists, and those who look and think outside the box, and into grays

liberals think in gray not black and white

so why is it that people who are liberal in many other areas get stuck in an all or nothing approach to understanding?

I think it is probably rebellion, bad experiences.

I can only say it is our job as humans to get over it. Seriously. At one time in my life I harbored enough anger to have been dangerous towards members of a certain religion probably. I would taunt people I knew that belonged to that religion.

Thankfully, I no longer harbor that kind of anger and resentment.

As democrats, and i realize this is democratic underground, not the democratic party, as democrats we need to bring people who have different ideas together on the things we have in common.

I don't know why as a party we let the media dictate for us where we are going.

The media sets the agenda sometimes.

We need to say, hell yes Christians are important, so are Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Hindus, whatever

we are a diverse and great party when we work together and focus.

thanks

[Parche]

91. Great Post Allahpicker

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :hi:

[SPKrazy]

99. in walks Jim

allahpicker

:rofl:

:hi:

[Solon]

92. All Generalizations are wrong, including this one.

On a more serious note, I try to avoid broadbrushes, it can be hard sometimes, but at least I try.

[SPKrazy]

101. where have i generalized?

:shrug:

we all broadbrush at times

i may have too

i try not to as well

so where have i generalized here?

I'm not saying all people are trashing people of faith.

[NMDemDist2]

94. to quote a very great man, "I like your Christ...

I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

like anything, when you walk the talk, I'll respect you.

If all I see is lip service, you may not like my responses.

:hi:

[SPKrazy]

102. that's one thing

generalizing that all people who profess to be "christians" are alike is like generalizing that all people who believe in a higher power believe in the same thing.

I am with you on walking the walk.

too much bullshit in the world

i just want us to have some semblance of unity so we can win a fucking election again!!!!

:hi:

[NMDemDist2]

118. I gotta tell ya, I work and live in a very "Christian" community, like you.

there is a homeless couple my hubby has kind of adopted and when the snow was coming at Thanksgiving he asked me if we could give them some blankets.

I grabbed the two sleeping bags we had in storage (that we have NEVER used) and took them and some food, down to the folks one day.

As fate would have it, three different people I work with saw me giving them the food and bags. My coworkers made a big fuss of how "Christian" that was of me and they "always knew you were good people"

I would have preferred that no one had seen me, charity given in public is no virtue IMO and I was somewhat irritated that a good deed was immediately labeled as "Christian" while here in this 25,000 person community with over 30 churches not one of the 'congregations' had opened their basement for the handful of homeless we have around here when the freezing storm was coming.

Virtue is as virtue does.

I am like the famous Arab who, when the Angel was writing names in the book of those who loved God, preferred to be listed in the book of those who love Man.

edit to add, this is the poem

ABOU BEN ADHEM

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold.
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?" -The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men."

The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest.

[Danger Mouse]

125. See, that's a silly thing to do...assume that good acts are exclusively 'Christian'...

i mean, if the person's christian, you can say they're being a good christian, if you want, but in reality, they're just being a good person.
anybody, ideally, should do that.

[NMDemDist2]

132. right

and since I'm not Christian, their assumption was wrong. but it was weird that 3 different people, instead of saying "What a kind/thoughtful/nice thing you did." said "What a Christian thing to do"

:shrug:

[SPKrazy]

137. it was a good thing to do

as a non christian myself

i commend you on being a good person

who did a good thing

:hug:

[NMDemDist2]

141. here's the poem, in case you missed my edit above

Abou Ben Adhem
by James Henry Leigh Hunt

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold: -
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said
"What writest thou?" -The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still, and said "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men."

The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest.

[SPKrazy]

167. cool

got a chill :hi:

[Danger Mouse]

144. a foolish assumption which shows their ignorance.

[Kajsa]

150. That was a beautiful and kind thing to do, AZ Dem.

To you and your husband.
:hug: :grouphug:

[NMDemDist2]

156. how could we have lived with ourselves if we heard these folks had frozen to death on Thanksgiving?

it was so little to give and truly the very least we could do.

They are good people (albeit a tad crazy) who have so little and need so much. I would have been devastated if I had read in the paper they died from the elements. They are still around and seem to have found a kind property owner who has let them set up 'camp' by the river.

If I did belong to a church around here I'd be begging the congregation to help them and the handful of other street people. I don't care that they are crazy or drunk or whatever their story is, they were cold and they are homeless.

She wears a dress and hat and all summer she would dance and sing gospel songs in the most beautiful voice on the side of the road. He is obviously disabled and in poor health yet they live on the side of the road.

It's criminal.

[Kajsa]

160. Yes it is!

I couldn't agree more.

;(

[Bluebear]

97. "I'll get flamed for this I know" posts always START as "martyr" posts.

It's hard to respond, because if one disagrees, they are fulfilling your persecution prophecy, if that makes sense to you.

[SPKrazy]

103. All replies that start with quoting the OP and calling them "martyr posts"

are hard for me to take seriously

jmo

ymmv

[Bluebear]

106. Which shows you were not into this for discussion, just "Well said!!!" agreements.

:silly:

[SPKrazy]

112. I've discussed this pretty thoroughly

but you're right

I posted my opinion

you posted yours

yours sucks btw

:rofl:

wipe that silly grin off your face :P

[Name removed]

105. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nealmhughes]

98. Christianity is such a broad religion that one basically cannot make blanket statements

about app. 1/4 (nominal or by at least heritage) of the globe.

Some will laugh at the thought of a Rapture or a Tribulation. Others will ask WTF are those? Others actually believe a dash of Daniel, a pinch of Isiah, and a heaping cup of that book traditionally the last in the New Testament that should never be said aloud or typed.

Some nominal Christians are Christian by culture only, even clergy (I offer the mink stole brigade and country club set at my local parish and a bishop of my aquaintence). Others are like Martin Sheen. Now that is a range. In even one congregation there will be few agreeing upon every policy, every sermon, every meaning of every verse, etc.

Some sects are vastly easier to ridicule than others, some not. I find the teachings of some noxious, others sublime.

Neither all nor most Christians exist. It would be like thinking every Haradi and Reconstructionalist Jew were identical in thought, culture and action!

[SPKrazy]

107. very true

and there is so much difference in sects and denominations that sometimes they are not that similar at all except that they call themselves "christians"

kind of like cars

there are a lot of cars, big ones, little ones, fast ones, expensive ones, cheap ones, ones that get good mileage, etc.

when someone says "I have a car" that means little except that they have some kind of vehicle

most don't generalize about something as tangible as that

it is the intangible quality of a person's beliefs that makes it hard for some maybe?

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SPKrazy]

110. it prolly makes

him feel better to think he had something to add to the thread when all he had was snark about my OP

which is fine

I don't give a shit

what I do care about is the monstrosity of anger and snark that has been here lately

:grr:

:hi:

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SPKrazy]

113. if he's a grown up

about damned time to learn

[alcibiades_mystery]

117. Ahhhh

Another one of my fans, is it?

Do you keep a notebook, or is it just vivid memories?

:rofl:

[SPKrazy]

109. Well thanks for your opinion

and that is all it is

mine is that I posted what i thought

the subject line

unimportant

could have been << or -- or "hey you fucks"

but so what?

JMO

YMMV

thanks!

glad you love me :eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

114. Hey, if you show up to a party

in a shit-stained t-shirt, you might be the nicest person ever, but you should expect people to comment on your smelly, shit-stained shirt. In the same way, your initial "I know I will get flamed for this..." gambit may be inessential to your argument, but it still looks and smells bad, and will therefore impact reception. I don't distinguish between form and content for this reason. Your subject line is the shit-stained shirt in the room, so I'll feel free to tell you that it fucking stinks.

[SPKrazy]

115. Thanks for your shit stained opinion

my shirts are very clean

what's your problem anyway?


:shrug:

bye

[alcibiades_mystery]

128. It was an analogy

Your subject line is to your post
AS
Shit-stained shirt is to very nice person.

But you're right. I should rescind that. Your post is nothing but platitude and claptrap. We shouldn't overgeneralize and we should accept all faiths, la-di-da. Tell me something I didn't know when I woke up this morning. What's really funny is that you think the content of that third grade ethics lesson would get you flamed, when it is the most common platitude in our culture!

[Rex]

121. I laugh at all religions! They all seem batshit crazy.

But that is just me. And I could be wrong, about one of them, at least. :hi:

[SPKrazy]

123. laugh all you want

its good for the soul

:hi:

oh wait

I said soul

I meant heart

did you know the heart has it's own "brain" essentially?

[Rex]

129. Thanks

Now my heart, it and another part of me (you know that thing) seems to go about doing whatever they want...without my minds consent!

Plus laughing is fun, does God laugh? Any God? Anyone?

Who has the laughing God?

[Danger Mouse]

133. if God is up there, He'd have to have a sense of humor...

otherwise, how could He not look at this mess and not get depressed all the time?

[SPKrazy]

134. i dunno what this God is

but

if there is one

i bet laughter is part of what is good

laugh

:hi:

[Kajsa]

122. Great post, Southpaw!

You speak for me and a number of us here in DU land.

K&R. :hi: :hug:

[SPKrazy]

124. I love the ones i don't speak for too

they are fun

well most

some have made my ignore list for the night at least :D

prolly makes them proud

:rofl:

[Kajsa]

135. I wouldn't doubt it, SPK!

:rofl:

[hyphenate]

139. I agree.....

but then, it's difficult to imagine how you can simulate turning water into wine if you're only 13 and can't buy liquor. ;) (The action figure)

On a more serious note, unless you haven't been at DU for long enough, you would pretty much know that "Christian" here at DU means "one of those looney-toon, uptight asses who can create the proverbial lump of coal into a diamond, whacked out, wide-eyed young Earth creationist types, homophobes who are 'really just projecting,' conspiracy theorists who believe that George is really the second coming, 'wait for me Jesus!' dispensationalists just itching for Armageddon" people. Just saying. :) (BTW, you've been here long enough on that score.)







on edit: made a finer clarification than I had originally

[SPKrazy]

142. and i'm just saying

that the snark level here has been registering very high lately on this issue

[hyphenate]

151. This kind of war

has been fought so often in R/T and in the Atheist/Agnostic forums that most of us have learned to confine our outrage at the religious right to those areas. I apologize if I've come off snarky, as I usually only use my "serious" voice in GD and for a change decided that I needed to lighten up a bit. I guess it wasn't the right thread to do that, huh?

I've gotten tired of saying ad infinitum how much I despise the religious right. How I lost a friend who went over to the dark side and became a fundie, and how I simply can't believe that anyone in their right mind could believe in inerrancy in the bible. I've wearied over how often I find my mind boggling at how far the religious right is willing to go to make us nuts like them.

I've seen smarter pigeons than I have fundies, and I really have gotten more and more disgusted at the pomposity and indignance expressed by anyone on the right who believes their rights are being violated. Try being the only agnostic at an employer where "christian" values are mentioned every single day, and fearful that if you say you're not a Xtian that you will be "let go" for that confession; try being at a holiday dinner and hearing all the Xtians talking about how "godless" this country has become, and about how some "good old-fashioned religion" will heal everyone who doesn't deviate from the "righteous" path; try having a discussion with anyone about not believing in the same thing, and being told that they will "pray for you" or have put your name into Pat Robertson's "prayer circle" for you--they've all happened to me, and I got fucking sick and tired of being told that I was somehow inferior for not believing in their jack shit.

It gets old. And I've gotten touchy about it. And I held my tongue for a very long time against that self-righteous stench, and when I finally found people online who shared my distaste of these dickwads, I felt as though I were in Nirvana.

I'm not always right, nor do I pretend to be, but I've learned that if someone thinks you're talking about them, then they must have a guilty conscience, or they have some kind of a guilt complex to begin with. Or that you were right in the first place. I will never step on someone's foot if I can help it, but if they stick out their own foot, daring me to step on it instead, they shouldn't be so surprised when I take them up on their offer. And 99% of the religious right whackos in this country have put their own feet in harm's way without any hesitation.

[Danger Mouse]

153. Biblical inerrancy is something that people who have never actually read the bible believe in.

:banghead:
my heart goes out to you.

[SPKrazy]

171. having spent plenty of time in R/T

i know of which you speak

it just seems that for whatever reasons

the silly season or what

the snark level is high

not your post just in general

:hi:

[Alcibiades]

146. Why is anyone surprised that something tacky

Is popular with fundies?

These are people who want their kids to be preached to by talking vegetables.

Many go in for that Christian "Precious Moments" kitch. (The Precious Moments shrine/chapel/entertainment complex in Carthage, Missouri has to be seen to be believed, BTW. When I went on an ironic pilgrimage, they had a 40 foot laserlight Jesus, a huge fountain surrounded by "precious" cherubim, and a preaching Elvis impersonator who emceed and who also happened to be a little person).

These are the folks who made the torture device their messiah was executed upon their holy symbol.

And the different sorts of Christian action figures have been around for a while. See http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/easy_find?N=0&Ne=0&Ntk=keywords&Ntt=biblequest&action=Search&cms=1&event=AFF&nav_search=1&p=1027100

[Danger Mouse]

147. Big mouth billy bass...most tacky thing ever...popular among fundies?

most likely.

[Hoof Hearted]

163. I'm with you! We espouse evolution, we love science, we insist on separation of

church and state.

We're also Christian Democrats who go to a liberal church.

I get sick of the derogatory remarks here that are taken without aim, like buckshot, at anyone of faith in general.

edit for clarification

[SPKrazy]

166. xactly

:hi:

what I'm talking about

[Dr Fate]

164. I am now flaming you!

Just kidding- I pretty much agree...

[SPKrazy]

168. oh man

:evilgrin:


flame a little?

[Fire Walk With Me]

174. People don't like the concept that they have to be responsible for their actions.

That's where I think most of the rejection of spirituality occurs.

I was vitriolicly against religion at one point, due to the hypocrisy evident in those I saw around me (not taking the time to be aware of my own); now I have to live a life of spiritual principles to survive.

My anger was at the weakness I perceived within myself, which later became evident in needing to live a life admitting the weakness, and dealing with it directly. I projected it onto religion, and to any within religion who demonstrated having used it as a crutch. Because I needed a crutch, and my pride would not allow me to admit needing it.

Coming into a spiritual path requires total self-honesty. Those who do not wish to be self-honest might slap around those who seek it, in self-defense at the expense of others. These are the marks of fear, and the lack of knowledge/support to attempt to take up this path. They are the ones who need it most, and will hopefully see and understand this without self-criticism.

I don't ask anyone to do what I do, I just hope that they can be decent to one another. There are enough types out there who seek to cause damage in order to gain a temporary sense of control and abeyance of the fear of not being in control, that America would benefit from a change of behavior. If you are damaged, and wish to damage others and continue the chain of pain and fear, I hope that you may seek out the support needed to transcend it.

[sandnsea]

175. Okay, this is the "images" thing the Bible speaks of

The one where Christians call Catholics idol worshippers over, yeah that one. And then one of them turns around and SELLS images???

Yeah, they deserve to be mocked.

[hyphenate]

187. Are you aware that there are actually more than one version

of the 10 commandments? Yessiree bob! You would think that an inerrant god would only need to make one set, huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

[spoony]

180. Scorn is the only tool some people have at their disposal.

[Evoman]

182. It's not the only tool.

But it has it's uses.

[Evoman]

181. I don't broad brush a whole belief based on the actions of the fundies.

I just think the whole religion, liberal or otherwise, is dumb.

[Prophet 451]

183. What do you expect?

The fundies and the Religious Reich (i.e. Robertson, Falwell) have expended massive amounts of time, effort and money establishing themselves as the public face of Christianity, aided and abetted by a media which revels in sensationalism (which scores more ratings, Father John Smith doing something kind or Pat Robertson saying something outrageous?). DU posters are often brighter than most but we're not immune to that kind of societal training.

Also, Christianity is the only faith (certainly, the only one in the West) which has this whole industry grafted onto it, suppling everything from Jesus action figures to "Christian debt relief" and to those of us who aren't Christian, that seems, well, weird.

[TheFarseer]

184. I can almost see the action figure.

You know, the kids are playing with it thinking "what would Jesus do", maybe? Or maybe they're just making it fight Optimus Prime.

[MiniMe]

185. I think most people are using "Christians" to describe the fundamentalists

That is where most of the vitriole is aimed. I am Christian, I am not "a Christian", and I don't like the fundie form on Christianity shoved down my throat.

I think it really started in the 70's. I just remembered this incident last night, so let me share it with you. When I was in college in the 70's, I ran into a casual friend from high school that I hadn't seen in several years. We talked for a few minutes, and both of us had to go to class. We exchanged phone numbers and went on our way.

Later, we made arrangements to have lunch to catch up. When we got to lunch, she told me that on the day we met, she had been in the library studying for an exam all day. She was on her way to the exam when she ran into me. She took that as a sign from God that it meant that she was supposed to "save" me. I didn't need saving. They were called born-again Christians back then, and I remember that we considered them a bit of a cult. Well, I told her, Thanks, but I'm not really interested. Unfortunately, she had my phone number. She hounded me to death, calling me almost every day, and trying to talk me into going to one of their Thursday night prayer meetings. My response was, Thursday night is party night on campus, and I really wasn't interested. Hey, it was college.

It took several months for her to finally give up on "saving" me. I am Christian, and I have my own beliefs and relationship with God and Jesus. I don't care what anybody elses religion is, I don't even know what religion most of my friends and acquaintances are, it doesn't matter to me. I don't identify people by their religion. In this instance, I felt like I was having beliefs shoved down my throat.

I don't begrudge her that she asked, more power to her. What bothered me is that she wouldn't take no for an answer. We had Moonies who got into the dorms then who were the exact same way. Its kind of like that stupid bill that passed the house last night declaring that Christmas and Christianity are important. They are to me, but they may not be to all americans, and it doesn't belong in congress. The "born again Christians" have turned into the fundamentalists, and they are still trying to shove their brand of religion down peoples throats, and everybody (at least the congress) seems to be afraid of saying no to them.

Sorry about the rant, but I tend to think that extremism in anything is not a good thing.

[mikeytherat]

186. Welcome to the "Mikey's five to 10 percent" rule

I have always held a theory that five to 10 percent of ANY identifiable group (religious, ethnic, political, hobbyist, social, etc.) is comprised of complete and utter assholes. I have also postulated that these "five to 10 percenters" are, consistently, the ones most likely to: 1: speak for the group as a whole or, 2: given their provocative statements, be sought out as a spokesperson for the group as a whole.

See how many times the group to which you belong has a public spokesperson who, when speaking for the group, causes you to say, "Please stop speaking for my group. Please stop adopting my positions."

mikey_the_rat

[Cronus Protagonist]

191. You have a right to believe it - we have a right to laugh at your beliefs

It's free speech. What's not to get about that?

[DCKit]

192. If I have ever neglected to make it clear that any reference I make...

to religious people is to the radicals and fundamentalists who threaten our Constitution, environment and world peace, I am sorry.

Any Christian who LIVES their faith is an asset to atheists, agnostics, Muslims and all their other neighbors - As long as those who chose to witness are willing to take "no" for an answer after I've patiently explained that I do, in fact, believe in Christ's teachings and the Ten Commandments, but see no reason to ascribe to any particular "brand" of Christianity.

Xtians and Christofascists, on the other hand, are mad, bad and dangerous to small children, brown people, animals and anyone/anything else that gets in the way of their manifest destiny. I am unrepentant in calling them out on their hypocrisy. Don't think I've ever seen any on there, though.

If you feel that people are laughing at you or your beliefs, turn the other cheek and go on with your day. Or don't: Confront their lame asses with logic and respect. They may learn to become more tolerant or, at least, keep their hateful opinions to themselves.

[TrogL]

194. Because they haven't denounced the most fundamentalist of his believers

Even though the "fundmentals" they believe in are non-Christian and they routinely preach rampant heresy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

196. So?

I find religion funny.

:shrug: