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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 09:16 PM
Original message
American Troops Killed with Armor-Piercing Munitions Reverse Engineered from Iran-Contra Arms Sales
For a list of the current munitions known to exist in the Iranian arsenal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_Equipment_of_the_Iranian_Army

Take particular note of the Toophan missile types. These armor-piercing munitions were reverse engineered from the missiles that the pardoned Reagan/Bush Administration officials sold to the Iranians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toophan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toophan_2

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=iran+contra+toophan

When Bush 43 claims that the Iranian government is operating against our troops, just remember - they're doing so with weapons systems his father helped slip to the Ayatollah: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatollah_Khomeni

- Dave
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Keep that information rolling on down the highway...
Thanks!:hi:
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Remember Our Concern When the American Aircraft Crash Landed in China, 2001?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=american+ep-3+aircraft+shot+down+china+2001

The worry was that the Chinese would be able to reverse engineer much of our most sophisticated tech. The crew worked frantically to scrub systems and prevent reverse engineering, from which the Chinese military could build.

It's the same principle with the tech sold to Iran.

- Dave
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mloutre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yikes. Everything old is new again.
Thanks for the heads-up. K'd & R'd.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. History Requires a Long View (Exhibit A: World War I Weapons Prototypes)
Any American military planner worth his/her salt should have known that providing this technology to the Iranians in the 80s would lead to improved systems within a matter of years.

Just look at the prototype systems battle tested in WW I. In every field - aviation, mechanized infantry, bomb yields, submariner tech, etc. - those prototypes found their way back into battle, new and improved, by WW II.

- Dave
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Of course they realize it...
I dare say they count on it, or at least management does. How else will there be a large need for improved systems to be developed here? I mean the cow needs fed before it can be milked.

-Hoot
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Lockheed Lynne and 'lliburton Larry
"Lynne Cheney served on Lockheed Corporation's board of directors from 1994 to 2001, a $120,000-a-year post she gave up shortly before her husband's inauguration; Cheney served on the board's Finance, and Nominating and Corporate Governance committees."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynne_Cheney

That's just one example - of many - of how the lines blur between the "management" of the military-industrial complex and the "management" of the inner circle of the EOP.

- Dave

P.S. Lawrence Eagleburger's directorship at Halliburton - and his rotation in to replace Gates on the Iraq Study Group - is just another example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Study_Group

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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
37. I wish I had a bar that I could shove in the revolving door.
I'd like to see that thing come off its pivot.

-Hoot
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. Kick. n/t
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brer cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Dave, you are a gold mine of great information!
Thanks. K&R!
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thanks! A Government Degree...
... ought to be good for something, after all.

; )

- Dave

P.S. All kidding aside, I am deeply indebted to some "old school" librarians at Harvard, for teaching me how to delve into the archives.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
7. Not quite enough.
Edited on Sun Feb-18-07 09:57 PM by igil
Post hoc ...

"The United States has delivered 3400 TOW missiles to Iran since 1973. A total of 4760 TOWs and 250 launchers will be supplied." That was in addition to licensing an Iranian company to build, assemble, and repair TOW missiles.

"Since 1973" extended all the way to 1975. That was before Khomeini returned from France.

There's no evidence that I know of that Iran copied the TOW before Iran-Contra, but they had all the info and models they needed. Some of it was that Iran had simply no need to copy it before the Islamic rev.--they could simply produce it under license, something not possible after the US broke off relations with Iran. Some was the Islamic regime certainly had greater need--the shah had a military, but he wasn't in a serious war.

The response from Iran since then has been to innovate and build up their military by hook or by crook.

To show that it was Iran-Contra that provided the model for the Toophan (II), you have to show that Iran had no access to the tech before Iran-Contra.

Edited to add link: http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Iran/Missile/1788.html
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. See the Timeline for Armor-Penetrating Upgrades...
... and juxtapose that with the timeline of the revolution in Iran (1979): http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-71.html

"In 1978, the ITOW (Improved TOW) program was initiated to develop a TOW variant effective against new types of armour. The BGM-71C ITOW reached IOC (Initial Operational Capability) in April 1981. It had a new copper lined warhead of slightly larger diameter, and also an extendable nose probe fuze. The probe extended after missile launch, and ensured that the warhead detonated at a stand-off distance from the target for optimum efficiency of the shaped charge. The new warhead and fuze improve the armour penetrating capability to about 700 mm. The BTM-71C is the corresponding training round.

The further improved BGM-71D TOW 2 was first delivered to U.S. Army and USMC units in 1983. It has a still larger and heavier warhead, which increases the diameter of the warhead section to that of the main missile body. It also has a slightly longer nose probe, an improved double-base rocket motor, and a new countermeasures resistant digital guidance system. Armour penetration capability is increased to about 800 mm. Although I haven't found any reference to it, there is probably also a BTM-71D training round for the TOW 2."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran

Perhaps one of us can find a specific reference from the Tower Commission, citing the precise make/model.

Best,

- Dave
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
27. I've been rummaging through
Google for Tower Commission chunks (if anybody has a link to the report on-line, not on-dead-tree, it'd be helpful) searching for bgm-71 references (= TOW).

All the references I can find stop at bgm-71, and don't give any more info (i.e., whether it was an upgraded version of the bgm-71, and if so, which upgrade).

I'm not saying Iran didn't reverse anything provided to them under Iran-Contra. Just that when making claims, it's best if they're not rendered both completely unnecessary within the first 2-3 links provided by a simple 2-3 word Google search.
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Traveling_Home Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. It is perfectly legal under international law...

for the Iranians to buy the latest anti-aircraft missle system from Russia.

Why would you think it necessary to create some conspiracy when it is perfectly legal for the Iranians to go out on the international market and buy the latest and greatest military cartridges from any of a hundred States willing to sell cartridges to them? Why would the Iranians waste time "reverse-engineering" something widely available and always open source? They'd simply buy a license from some Nation to include the production machines for state of the art 2007 cartridges instead of reverse engineering a cartridge from the 1970.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Reverse Engineering from the 1980s Shipments Wasn't the End Point...
... and they continued innovating and improvising.

You're absolutely right about one thing: the Iranians have bought weapons systems from many suppliers, cobbling together a mishmash of some pretty sophisticated base systems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_Equipment_of_the_Iranian_Army

But they didn't just buy and use up these systems; they adapted them, they improvised, and they innovated.

How far of a leap is it from armor-piercing anti-tank to armor-piercing anti-aircraft? Change the guidance and delivery systems, but the core of the tech (the armor-piercing component) remains the same.

The armor-piercing munitions showing up on the Iraqi battlefield today? We supplied those, and there is line-of-sight traceability to the Iran-Contra affair.

The paleocons got played by Iran; the neocons are reaping their blunder.

- Dave
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
14. clever
got to hand it to the Iranians, my "ex"-countryfolk (yes, at one time I did have an Iranian passport). They have the advantage of taking the long view of things. They also are used to living what we would call a "Depression-era" lifestyle- they make do and improvise. Not always having the resources to purchase new things from outside, they copy them and modify them to their own needs. I have no doubt they have done this with munitions, etc.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Gunpowder: Fireworks, or Weapon?
The story of how gunpowder was adapted is a classic example of how - once traded away - a technology can come back to bite the seller in unexpected ways.

- Dave
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
15. Thank you, Ronald Reagan ...
... you insufferable rat bastard. And that goes double for your henchman GHWB.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Those Cold War Proxy Battles (e.g., Afghanistan vs. USSR, or Iraq vs. Iran)...
... the gifts that keep on giving.

- Dave
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
18. Jail time
This is why NO MORE pardons can be issued for the "good of the country" or to "heal the divide". Fuck that! You can't heal till you remove the infection. Otherwise it just keeps coming back stronger than ever. It began with the Nixon pardon and that directly led to Iran Contra which directly led to the Nazi we call president now. These rethuglican bastards need to rot in jail.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Amend to Allow Post-Conviction Pardons Only?
I'd be in favor of that.

- Dave
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Post=conviction pardons only,teamed with
the proscribed penalty for treason,along with the freeper wish to end the legal manuevers that drag out carrying out death sentences sounds like a good idea to me.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. I think a pardon
should be subject to confirmation by the congress, just like an appointment.

Pardons should be used VERY sparingly and only when there is a compelling case for the national interest or, occasionally, for humanitarian reasons (like if someone is dying anyway)

They should NOT be available as cronyism or cover-your-ass tools

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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
20. Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFPs), Shown in White House Pictures? Derived from Iran-Contra Sales
"EFPs have been deployed as warheads in several weapon systems, including the TOW-2B anti-tank missile..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_Formed_Penetrator

The TOW missiles are the selfsame type shipped to Iran during Iran-Contra: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=iran+contra+tow+missiles

- Dave
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
21. morning kick
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
23. My letter to Rep Waxman
Rep. Waxman
Please initiate hearings into how US Tow Missile Technology and the explosively formed penetrators currently being used to kill US soldiers in Iraq where given to Iran during the IranContra affair.
The actions of high ranking members of GHWB and reagans administrations border on treason and should be exposed to the light of day.Especially since US soldiers arebeing maimed and killed as a result of their actions.

Thank you for your work in exposing the crimes being committed by the bush administration in our name.I especially appreciate your work to protect whistleblowers who are trying to expose corruption in goverment and private industry.Such brave patriots deserve all the protections they can get.

Thank you


Everyone should take a moment to write their own letter.
Her is a link with contact information: http://oversight.house.gov/contact.asp
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Helps to Add Detail
The White House spoke last week of "explosively formed penetrators," or EFPs, as if they are something new.

If/when sending letters to your favorite members of Congress, seeking oversight hearings, it helps to note that the Jane's description for the TOW missiles includes this notation:

"In 1980, a programme was started to develop TOW further. This resulted in BGM-71C Improved TOW (ITOW) which incorporated a modified warhead and a 127 mm probe on the nose to improve armour-penetration. ITOW became operational in 1981. This was followed by BGM-71D TOW 2 which has a longer probe, a larger warhead and motor and improved guidance electronics. TOW 2 entered service in 1983. The Israeli Army developed a laser beam-riding guided version of TOW, known as MAPATS, which was first revealed in 1984."

...

"A development contract for a fifth-generation missile BGM-71F TOW 2B was awarded in 1988. This improved 2B missile incorporates a dual-mode target sensor, and twin explosively formed penetrator warheads."

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jalw/jalw001013_2_n.shtml

EFP tech is not new, and the armor-piercing tech was handed to the Iranians by Reagan and GHWB.

- Dave
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. I'll add that in my letter to the Judiciary Committee nt
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happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
44. and at the same time we were backing Iraq against Iran
that "Gulf War". Hussein went ballistic when he heard about the TOW deal, but then quieted down when the US wagged a finger at him threatening to pull out support.....:crazy::crazy: :eyes:
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
25. Maybe we should be attacking ourselves?
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happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #25
45. Or now develop armor-piercing bullet-proof armor.
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

I think Ollie North and Dupont make the Kevlar product, but don't quote me on that.
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
28. Does Ollie North still have his show on Fox News?
with Hannity still kissing his ass and calling him a hero?

http://www.olivernorth.com/
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. not for long!
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/01/09/north-troops-oppose-escalation/


I expect his "coming out" just MIGHT have something to do with his knowledge of his direct involvement in the very existence of those weapons. He may just have hit the wall. Despite my general dislike of the guy, his politics, and his "cowboy" activities, I actually believe that he came out with this truthtelling because he DOES care about the troops and DOES know that they are in a meat grinder.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. When the White House Said "EFPs," Ollie Heard...
... TOWs, aka, the missile tech he sold.

- Dave
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. "I am proud to be a republicon traitor against America." Jolly Ollie
"After all, that's where the moneybucks are." - Jolly Ollie


Images of Hawk missiles Ollie North gave Iran so they could shoot our sons and daughters in uniform. Typical republicon traitor. He pretends to be a Super Patriot, but its just a pack of republicon propaganda.

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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Pix of TOWs
"The TOW 2 launcher is the most recent launcher upgrade. It is compatible with all TOW missiles. The TOW 2 Weapon System is composed of a reusable launcher, a missile guidance set, and sight system. The system can be tripod mounted. However because it is heavy, it is generally employed from the HMMWV. The missile has a 20-year maintenance-free storage life. All versions of the TOW missile can be fired from the current launcher."

Pics: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/tow.htm

- Dave
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
34. The accusation is about IEDs and RPGs, not about TOW-type weapons
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 03:15 PM by leveymg
You posted something similar earlier about how Iran-Contra led to Iranian TOWs, and I had to point out that we had been selling the Shah TOWs since the 1970s, years before Iran-Contra. You didn't respond.

As far as I've read, the munitions that Iran has been accused of providing Iraqi insurgents includes Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDS) and RPG types 7 and 29. There have been other references to shoulder-fired SAMs. But, I haven't seen mention of TOWs, until now.

The argument cooked up about Iranian responsibility for American losses in Iraq due to IEDs and RPGs is pretty thin. Large, effective IEDs first appreared in Sunni areas west and north-west of Baghdad in May 2005 after the first round of Parliamentary elections brough a Shi'a dominated regime to power, effectively cementing Iran's control over southern Iraq. The Iranians have had little reason to upset the status quo, but the Sunnis and Saudi Arabia, have a lot of reason to want to reshuffle the deck. The breakaway Shia militia, al-Sadr's Mahdi army, is known to have worked in the past with Sunni militias.

As for RPG-29s, these are Russian sourced and aren't known to be manufactured in Iran. RPG-7s are everywhere, and frankly are considered to be light arms at this point.

I wouldn't reinforce the message that Iran is actually responsible for manufacturing and providing the devices that have killed US troops. The case isn't at all conclusive.

Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFPs) in Iraq likely are not the result of reverse-engineering of TOWs. The use of EFPs date back to WWII, and are essentially shaped charges (plastic explosives) clad in metal cones, that upon ignition turn into a molten plasma jet that penetrate armour at short distances ahead of a larger charge that gets detonated miliseconds later. These aren't smart munitions, like TOWs, but are instead stationary munitions usually buried or sometimes dropped from overpasses. This type of stationary munition has been used quite effectively for years by Hezbollah against Israeli tanks, and the technology is now widely known throughout the region. None of the components are terribly sophisticated, and the materials are widely available inside Iraq.

Here's the history of shaped charges and EFPs: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/bullets2-shaped-charge.htm

Shaped Charge History

Charles Edward Munroe was the inventor of "The Monroe Effect" in explosives in 1885. He noted that a high explosive with a cavity facing a target left an indentation.

SNIP

Shaped charges were first developed after World War I to penetrate tanks and other armored equipment. A cylindrical charge that lies flat against the armour and is being initiated in one end gives a directed detonation effect so that a hole is created at the point of contact is Generation I. If that charge is equipped with a conical hole the force of the explosion will be channeled further and increases the chances for a penetration it is Generation II. The most common type of hollow charge munitions is the jet creating hollow charge, also called Hollow Charge Generation III. The other type of hollow charge munition is the projectile creating munition. It is referred to as Genetration IV. Gen I and Gen II (developed during the WW II) are predecessors to Gen III and IV but they are no longer in use in any munitions.

The "shaped charge" was introduced to warfare as an anti-tank device in World War II after its re-discovery in the late 1930s. In 1935, Henry Mohaupt, a chemical engineer established a laboratory in Zurich to develop an effective anti-tank weapon that could be used by infantry soldiers. Henry Mohaupt was the inventor of the lined shaped charge. Other accounts mention earlier work by R.W. Wood of the John Hopkins University Physics Department as the discoverer of the metal liner principle. After the war started, Mohaupt came to the United States, and in October 1940 he took over direction of the bazooka project.

In January, 1945, Ramsey C. Armstrong founded Well Explosives Company, Inc. in Fort Worth, Texas. He decided to pursue perforating technology related to the bazooka, an anti-tank device based on the shaped charge concept. Armstrong contacted Mohaupt in Washington, DC, where he was then working for the Navy, and in October of 1946, Mohaupt and his wife made the long drive from Washington to Fort Worth.

The Beehive Charge was a six in diameter shaped charge demolition/sabotage device devised by the UK in October 1941.

The RPG-43 Ruchnaya Protivotankovaya Granata ("Hand Anti-Tank Grenade") Model 1943 was Russia's first shaped charge grenade for anti-tank purposes. It replaced the RPG-40 which was an ordinary stick grenade with an oversized high explosive head. It had an impact fuze with a 95mm diameter warhead containing 612g of TNT which could penetrate 75mm of armor.

In 1965 a Russian scientist proposed that a shaped charge originally developed for piercing thick steel armor be adapted to the task of accelerating shock waves. The resulting device, looking little like a wind tunnel, is called a Voitenko compressor. The Voitenko compressor initially separates a test gas from a shaped charge with a malleable steel plate. When the shaped charge detonates, most of its energy is focused on the steel plate, driving it forward and pushing the test gas ahead of it. Ames translated this idea into a self-destroying shock tube. A 66-pound shaped charge accelerated the gas in a 3-cm glass-walled tube 2 meters in length. The velocity of the resulting shock wave was a phenomenal 220 000 feet per second. The apparatus exposed to the detonation was, of course, completely destroyed, but not before useful data were extracted.

The US Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, an ARL predecessor organization, made several important contributions to the development of shaped-charge technology. BRL scientists delineated the penetration mechanics of the stretching, high-velocity jet of metal that is formed by the warhead, thus making it possible to design relatively light, inexpensive weapons to defend against tanks. Guided missiles, such as Shillelagh, TOW, Dragon, and Hellfire, exploited the high penetration capability of such warheads with accurate fire at long range. Further contributions included the demonstration of tandem shaped-charge warheads and the application of advanced liner material technology that increased jet velocity and ductility and provided enhanced lethality within existing weapon system envelopes.

SNIP

In early 1997, Lawrence Livermore successfully tested a shaped charge that penetrated 3.4 meters of high-strength armor steel. The largest diameter precision shaped charge ever built produced a jet of molybdenum that traveled several meters through the air before making its way through successive blocks of steel.

SNIP
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Self-delete. Dupe
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 02:56 PM by leveymg
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OxQQme Donating Member (694 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. A bargain
at $180,000 each folks. Step right up.


OMG

David, thank you for all the information you've been bringing.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Mark, See LA Times and Others Last Week; "EFPs" Were Cited in Briefing
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 04:02 PM by CorpGovActivist
http://www.latimes.com/wireless/avantgo/la-021207iran,0,6146501.story

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-cockburn16feb16,0,6714688.story

"You posted something similar earlier about how Iran-Contra led to Iranian TOWs, and I had to point out that we had been selling the Shah TOWs since the 1970s, years before Iran-Contra. You didn't respond."

Sorry I missed your response. True, TOWs had been sold to the Shah, but: (1) the Iranians had likely used up that stockpile, leading to their request to purchase new ones from the Reagan Administration; and (2) the ones purchased by the Ayatollah were more advanced (e.g., armor-piercing capabilities). See the Tower Commission Report.

"As far as I've read, the munitions that Iran has been accused of providing Iraqi insurgents includes Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDS) and RPG types 7 and 29. There have been other references to shoulder-fired SAMs. But, I haven't seen mention of TOWs, until now."

According to the news organizations briefed last week, the White House raised the EFP tech issue, and pointed to Iran. That doesn't mean that TOWs have been fired at American troops; simply, that they've been studied and used in innovative ways.

But - if we accept the White House's twin accusations: 1. that EFP tech is being used; and 2. that tech is being supplied by Iran - that naturally begs the question of where Iran has obtained its EFP tech in the past.

- Dave
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Nothing unique to Iran. EFPs are used worldwide in armour-piercing munitions.
Shaped charges have been used against tanks since WW1 and EFPs are WWII technology. Basic EFPs are nothing more than shaped charges sheathed in copper or moly jackets. If an Iraqi has access to pipeline fabrication tools, pipes, a supply of high explosives, and an instruction manual, he's got all he needs to make an IED. Oh, yes, a shovel to bury the thing and some wires, an infrared switch, or a cell phone to set it off.

Why are we supposed to believe that these things are uniquely sourced from Iran?
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. The TOW in all its versions are armor piercing
Its an anti-tank weapon.

There have been various improvements over the years but the really advanced stuff didn't start to appear until the late 80's.



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DrBlix Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. IMHO this post is a reverse engineered propaganda attempt
to falsely show Iran interference in Iraq. So Iran/Contra did supply arms to Iran...are we now to imply that that is proof they are now guilty of supplying arms into the Iraq war?
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happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Welcome to DU. Man, this situation is insane in so many
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 08:04 PM by happydreams
ways.


Interesting to take.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
40. K&R.(nt)
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volstork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
43. K&R!
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