Do we know how the mall shooter got a rifle? n/t

[ourbluenation]

[babylonsister]

1. I think I heard/read it was his dad's/stepdad's. nt

[madinmaryland]

2. I think he got it from his step father (or took it from his step father)

[Frustratedlady]

3. I believe it came from his father's collection.

I may be wrong, but I believe that's what they said last night.

I stand corrected..his stepfather.

[SharkSquid]

4. Uh oh here we go again n/t

[ourbluenation]

5. no judging friend, I just wanted to know. Thx all for the answers. n/t

[Poiuyt]

6. He took it from his step father while he was gone on a vacation

While Robert Hawkins was killing Von Maur employees and shoppers with his stepfather's AK-47, the stepfather was vacationing thousands of miles away in Thailand, according to the stepfather's family and people familiar with the shooting investigation.

Although Hawkins' mother, Maribel "Molly" Rodriguez, was divorced from Mark Dotson, she and Hawkins had access to Dotson's Bellevue home while he was away, said Eric Dotson, Mark's brother.

Hawkins, 19, apparently took the rifle from a closet and put it in his car while his mother was gone for a while, Eric Dotson said.

more -

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_page=2798&u_sid=10203759

[tridim]

11. Why didn't it have a trigger lock?

Has that been asked in the MSM yet?

[Irreverend IX]

12. Trigger locks are useless.

They can be removed by sticking a popsicle stick between the lock and the trigger guard to undo the mechanism. They're only meant to prevent non-malicious access.

[MADem]

13. Those are really to stop little kindergarten Georgie or second grade Suzie... nt

[tridim]

16. So just leave them out for your mentally unstable kid to steal it?

:eyes:

[beevul]

27. Only under brady criteria...

you know...the kind they use to inflate the numbers of "kids" killed or injured by guns
is this unstable person a kid.

He was 19 years old, and an adult.

So lose the "kid" arguments already.

[slackmaster]

40. If I had a mentally unstable kid, or ANY kid in the house

I would have kept it locked up in a safe, as I do even without kids in the house.

[slackmaster]

47. Hey tridim - Here is a link to a good summary of state gun laws for your enlightenment

As much as I despise the Brady Bunch, they do a decent job of keeping track of gun laws:

http://www.stategunlaws.org/

Take note of "Child Access Prevention" or CAP laws. Some states like mine (California) have them, some don't; but I do not believe any have one that covers unauthorized possession by an adult.

Trying to hold people responsible for theft and abuse by adults of items they legally own presents a slippery legal slope.

[Tejas]

14. Why should it? Is it

required by law in Nebraska? By the way, maybe you should get on the horn to FOX and remind them of their oversight, goodness knows they're probably dying for new material to add to their tripe.

[tridim]

15. Responsible adults lock up their guns.

Do you leave yours out for the kids to play with?

[Tejas]

21. typical non-answer to my direct legal question

[tridim]

23. It should have a trigger lock because guns are dangerous.

Now answer my question, do kids have access to your guns?

If you don't have kids, do you not worry about someone breaking in to your house while you're gone and stealing them?

[Tejas]

25. 2nd non-answer to my legal question

I bet you were the one that always asked "how come this and how come that" just to be asking a question..........even long after several people had given you sensible answers.....

such as the TWO you already received above before I asked you a simple legal question.

But for some goofy reason, their answers weren't satisfactory to you.

Well, that's your problem, not mine, so I guess you'll just have to resign yourself to run aimlessly around this thread in your crusade in favor of trigger locks.





note to self: never ask tridim if something is legal, either treats legality as a non-issue or worries more about why the sky is blue.

[BadgerLaw2010]

20. What would a trigger lock do when a gun has been stolen?

[hedgehog]

32. DId you check the last line in the lnk?

"At a Thursday afternoon press conference in Lincoln, Scot Adams, behavioral health director for HHS, said the state has gotten offers of help and support from other states that have experienced mass shootings. Calls have come from Utah, Pennsylvania and Colorado.

State and local mental health professionals had a response plan ready and put it into action Wednesday, he said"



Where were the mental health professionals last week?

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. Oh, hell, it's Nebraska.

EVERYBODY's got rifles.

[Liberal In Texas]

10. I know you're being ironic or sarcastic or something, but that just isn't true. n/t

[mitchtv]

8. The Clintons did it

I know

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

9. That would be the Clenis.

[Common Sense Party]

17. I keep reading it was an AK-47. Now I'm a gun ignoramus...

...but I thought the AK-47 was a Russian-made machine gun (automatic weapon).

Is there a non-automatic version of the AK-47 that is legal to own?

Can someone clarify this?

[Richard Steele]

18. Yes. Their are MANY semi-automatic variations of that rifle.

although they LOOK similar on the outside, they
are not "machine guns" and are treated the same
as any other rifle under most laws.

The MSM just has a habit of referring to all of
them by the misnomer "AK-47".

[Common Sense Party]

41. I was wondering if it was the MSM being lazy.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Now, is the real AK-47 Russian made? Or am I thinking of the Kalashnikov?

As I said, I'm a moron when it comes to guns. I have nothing against them, I just know very little about them.

[Richard Steele]

43. AK-47/Kalashnikov: both of those are the same thing.

Mikhail Kalasnikov was a Russian WWII draftee and self-taught inventor
whose natural genius eventually elevated him to "General Designer of Small Arms"
for the Soviet Army.

He designed the AK-47 around the "radical" idea of a medium power, limited-range
30-caliber infantry rifle cartridge (an idea originally conceived by the Germans
in the late days of the war.)

In Russian, "AK-47" was the military ACRONYM for "Kalashnikov Automatic, model of 1947".

He designed a lot of other stuff as well, of course...
but the AK-47 was always considered his greatest engineering achievement.
So when someone uses the generic term "a Kalashnikov", they're generally
referring to the AK-47.

[Common Sense Party]

46. Thanks for the information and education. nt

[Pavulon]

19. Replicas

that look like an AK variant are available. They fire a single shot at a time. They use a very efficient .30 cal round. They do not share the trigger group of an ak (47,m,74) and can not be converted.

In my experience with weapons both select fire and semi automatic, the semi automatic is more effective in the hands of an untrained moron.

An AK whatever or M4 on full will fire its magazine in seconds. The first two shots will land on target, the rest fly up and right. Unless this little jerk off had infantry training he would have wasted the majority of his rounds firing a machine gun at his victims. Most people do not just pick up a select fire rifle and learn to make it work without training.

A semi automatic allows the shooter to fire one shot per pull and not loose rounds to uncontrolled recoil. In the situation he was in a bolt action rifle with open sights would provide a similar outcome.

The AK is made by the millions world wide, but not available in its issue form (safe, full auto, semi) in the us unless you have purchased it under the NFA regulations. That is not the case here.

[ManiacJoe]

22. This is common problem for non-shooters.

And, of course, we shooters do not help things with the way we use the designations. Because the real (full-auto) versions of military rifles are so low in number and so hard to obtain legally for citizens, the military designation gets used for the civilian versions with no qualifiers (out of laziness). Any reference to the real military version usually gets the "real" qualifier attached to it. Thus "ak-47" = "civilian/semi-auto clone of AK-47" and "real ak-47" = "full-auto military ak-47".

Sometimes the manufacturers make things a little easier by giving the civilian versions different model numbers. For example:
M16 vs AR15
HK MP5 vs HK-94
HK G3 vs HK-91

Of course, it would help if the reporters and police spokesmen had any clues about what they were talking about when it comes to firearms...

[tridim]

24. Now tell us about your gun buddies who have modified their semi-autos..

to full auto by replacing one or two parts. Or just pretend that you don't know any gun owner who would do something so irresponsible.

I've known exactly one gun-nut in my lifetime and he told me all about it.

[Tejas]

26. woman! get me some popcorn NOW!

Just when you think you've seen it all...



tridim (1000+ posts) Fri Dec-07-07 07:06 PM

24. Now tell us about your gun buddies who have modified their semi-autos..
to full auto by replacing one or two parts. Or just pretend that you don't know any gun owner who would do something so irresponsible.

I've known exactly one gun-nut in my lifetime and he told me all about it.

Gore.

[beevul]

28. So lets have the details.

"I've known exactly one gun-nut in my lifetime and he told me all about it."


Since he told you all about it, you should have plenty of information to share.

Do tell.

[ManiacJoe]

29. I have no knowledge of anyone who has ever done that.

Be they friends or not. To the best of my knowledge, none of my friends possess both the knowledge and the tools required to make make those conversions work correctly. None of my non-friends are stupid enough to brag about such felonies, if they did it.

In your case, did he actually do it or was he just telling stories trying to impress you? If he did it, was it done illegally or legally? Let's hear the story!

[tridim]

31. He showed me his semi-auto and a catalog with the parts.

I don't know if he ever did it himself because I only worked with him for one summer.

[Tejas]

33. did the

catologue say TAPCO on it?





hmm, now where'd I put that pic of a barrel shroud...

[tridim]

34. Hell if I know, his gun had me plenty freaked out already.

I wasn't really interested in any more details.

[-..__...]

37. So....

essentially he showed you a semi-automatic firearm (of some type of which I'm curious and a description of would help), and a catalog of parts and told you he had done an illegal conversion.

Is that right?

With no other proof, you seem to think that there's a problem (not that you might have others), with the possession an/or ownership of
particular types of firearms and/or gun owners in general.

Is that right?

Why are you even relating this story (and passing judgment), if you have no idea about any "details" other than what some person you knew for one Summer told you?

[Paladin]

45. "The Knowledge And The Tools" My Ass

In our very own DU Gun Dungeon a while back, a poster discussed converting a semi-auto weapon to full auto status, using a really sophisticated piece of equipment---an ordinary shoe lace.

And just this past week on one of the DU threads dealing with the Omaha tragedy, one of our helpful gun folks posted the link to a home gunsmithing site where instructions were provided for constructing a machine gun from scratch. When I saw that post, I wasn't at a place where I could alert the moderators; I hope it disappeared quickly.

The fact is, posts about skirting the law, or just flagrantly breaking it, are a normal product of the gun culture that has regrettably taken up residence here at DU. Daily proof of this is avilable down in the Gun Dungeon. And AK-47's are sure to be even more popular than ever in the Gungeon, now that yet another psychotic loser has added to the twisted appeal such firearms.....

[Pavulon]

48. I worked in the armory

for a while in the NG. I was not a gunsmith, my function was clerical. I can tell for sure that you CAN NOT take parts from a US Government issues Colt manufactured M16/Ax or M4 and place them in a civilian replica and make the replica a machine gun. Just taking the parts will earn you 10 years. No plea bargain, 10 years.

The hammer and trigger assembly in the issue weapon is not a drop in part to a civ. weapon. It requires knowledge to make a reliable weapon. Filing things and shoe strings do not a machine gun make. A slam firing weapon is useless. To much tv an internet for some.

In my current life I design solutions and sell companies cnc tooling equipment. IE, fancy machine shop equipment. Given the time and plans 3 guys could run an assembly line and mill the (well most of) entire weapon. They hand make them in pakistan.

Remember the Hollywood shooting. Guys firing wildly. No police fatalities. No torso or head scores. Because they were firing wide open uncontrolled.

Now we have cases where one person hits many more using a semi auto. A bolt action would deliver the same outcome.

AK47 are NFA controlled, unless you have about 20K you dont have one. You have a replica.

[beevul]

51. Interesting...

Its off topic, but do you sell stuff like 3R tooling or custom stuff?


I used to work with Charmilles, Mitsubishi, and Fanuc wire EDM's as well as old eltee pulsitron and Mits sinkers...

Most folks wouldn't have the slightest idea of the meaning of what I just said, but I bet you do.

In the business, interest in firearms among machinists was very widespread, at least in my experience.

"Given the time and plans 3 guys could run an assembly line and mill the (well most of) entire weapon. They hand make them in pakistan."

Given the level of automation currently in existance, that there is a fact. I wish more people could see precision machined goods...like firearms and firearm parts, made from start to finish. Not just see, but understand the process, and how simple it really is.

[Pavulon]

56. Firearms are "loose"

by most standards. It was very interesting to see guys in a dirt floor hut in the hindu kush mountains making the AK-47 from scrap metal.

We sell custom cutting systems primarily. We had been priced out by many competitors but are seeing a boost in overseas business, especially in eme. Our machines are high end.

I started out of college and learned from some really smart guys. I have been lucky to see lots of places in my career and really enjoy the travel.

One of the interesting things is the durability of equipment. I routinely see equipment 10 - 20 years old operating with the same tolerance that is ran on day one. With proper care of course.

After many years the process of design to fabrication is still great. An engineer in Boston can transmit specs to anywhere in the world and produce a finished component. Most people are unaware of the level of sophistication in simple goods.

I worked with pc/cnc control systems before loosing all technical skills to become a sales guy.

[Paladin]

53. "You Have A Replica."

I believe you were talking in general terms with that concluding phrase, but just for the record: I do not have an AK47 replica in my gun collection, or anything remotely like it. Such firearms do not appeal to me on any basis: aesthetic, functional, emotional, or least of all, political.....

[Tejas]

57. wrong orifice

"The fact is, posts about skirting the law, or just flagrantly breaking it, are a normal product of the gun culture that has regrettably taken up residence here at DU. Daily proof of this is avilable down in the Gun Dungeon."

If you feel that posts advocating lawlessness are running amuck left and right through the halls of the gungeon, please post a link at your convenience. I'm sure the mods would be more than happy to do something about it.

Also, if you care at all to voice your concern in promoting common sense (whatever your version may be) relating to firearms laws and regulations, I'm sure you'd be more than welcome to start a thread in the Gungeon addressing those issues.

;)

[-..__...]

30. Did your "gun nut" also brag about...

silencers made with potatoes or plastic soda bottles?

FWIW... I've never known one gun nut owner that had done, or would do something like that... and I've been involved with guns and the firearms community for well over 30 years now.

I'm not saying that it has never been done, or can't be done, but I've also never known anyone to deliberately manufacture chlorine gas out of common household chemicals either.

[Pavulon]

35. They may be doing 10 years of federal time

for even possessing one part of a machine gun. It is not a "drop in" conversion to make a machine gun. However one restricted part from a machine gun in a civilian non nfa rifle is a serious violation of federal law.

You will do more time for this violation than for most rape and murder cases (pled down of course).

[Union Label]

55. Well I took some of your post and did a google search

And I found something called an autosear, so it looks like you can make a "drop in" conversion. http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html

[Pavulon]

58. Again without knowledge

that part is useless. It just makes you a felon to posses it.

A sear is a catch that is part of the mechanism. Without other modifications placing an M16 part in a civilian rifle is pointless. It just makes you go to prison for ten years.

Your article is a warning, dont mess with this.

[sandnsea]

36. Yes you're right

And I've not known one gun owner who didn't know how to do it or know somebody who did, and just about everybody I've known in my adult life had guns in their homes.

[Pavulon]

38. Knowing how to do something illegal

is not the same as actually doing it.

[benEzra]

61. He was pulling your leg...

Now tell us about your gun buddies who have modified their semi-autos to full auto by replacing one or two parts. Or just pretend that you don't know any gun owner who would do something so irresponsible.

I've known exactly one gun-nut in my lifetime and he told me all about it.

He was either pulling your leg, or didn't know what he was talking about.

Federal law (the National Firearms Act, as amended by the McClure-Volkmer Act of 1986) requires that all NFA Title 1 civilian firearms NOT be easily convertible to full-auto, and any gun that IS easily converted into a machinegun is considered a machinegun under Federal law, i.e. 10-year Federal felony even to possess. Conversion parts (e.g., AR-15 auto sears) are restricted just as tightly as actual machineguns.

A skilled machinist could convert pretty much any magazine-fed civilian firearm into a full-auto, given a well equipped machine shop and plenty of time, but that person could also make a submachinegun from scratch.

BTW, I own a civilian AK lookalike. It's an excellent rifle on its own merits, thanks.

[Irreverend IX]

52. It wasn't an AK at all.

It was an SKS, a rifle that fires the same round as the AK-47 but has a completely different mechanism and a non-detachable magazine.

[benEzra]

60. Here's a photo of mine.

Is there a non-automatic version of the AK-47 that is legal to own?

Here's a photo of mine:



That's a Romanian SAR-1, 2002 model. It looks very much like an AKM-47 (the late-1950's version), but is non-automatic. The optic is a Russian Kobra.

Here's a Saiga, which is a Russian-made civilian AK with a more traditional 19th-century-style stock:

[krispos42]

62. A real AK-47 is selectable between full- and semi-auto

There are a few of them legally in the hands of US civilians, but they are few and far between, just like all legal full-autos.

The ones you see in your local gun store use a modified, semi-auto-only version of the selectable mechanism. A variety of people make them, and a variety of companies import them after modifying them to be compliant with the semi-auto-only laws. Often they are military-surplus after the Warsaw Pact dissolved and the former communist countries de-militarized themselves.

Similarly, guns like the ArmaLite AR-15 were originally developed as select-fire rifles as well. The Pentagon adopted the AR-15 in the 60's and designated it the M-16, while for civilian sales the full-auto feature was eliminated.

What the gun the shooter used should really be called is an "AK-47-pattern" rifle.

Not that you need a full-auto rifle to shoot really really fast.

Bump-firing a semiauto AR-15. It's only 39 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Va1TXGSCXk



Bump-firing a semiauto M1 Garand from World War Two. 27 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBQrtzSdVDo&feature=related

[slackmaster]

39. He acquired it illegally

It's been reported that he took it without authorization (i.e. stole it) from his stepfather.

[Hoof Hearted]

42. It was an ASSAULT WEAPON, and it belonged to his stepfather.

Which goes to show you, as long as AK-47's are out there, fucked up assholes will find a way to get their hands on one.



The glorification and the culture of guns as a lifestyle, as a "trademark" of America is not going well.

We need a way out that saves face for all sides and respects the second amendment while also changing drastically the current paradigm.

[slackmaster]

44. Teaching time - It was very likely not an "assault weapon"

Strictly speaking, since the federal AW ban expired in 2004, the term no longer has any legal meaning. A few states like California have their own definitions that differ from the obsolete federal one, but have no meaning in any other state.

However, even if you apply the expired federal definition it is very likely the rifle could have been purchased legally during the ban, in most states.

All that was necessary to make a semiautomatic AK-type semiautomatic rifle legal was to delete the following features:

- Folding or collapsible stock
- Threaded muzzle
- Bayonet lug
- The name "Avtomat Kalashnikova" or "AK-47" stamped on the receiver

Rifles lacking those features were sold in great number in the USA from 1994 through 2004. The AW ban DID NOT stop the importation or sale of AK type semiautomatic sporting rifles for the civilian market. A lot of people don't realize that basic truth.

An untinded consequence of the ban was to foster creative (and not very difficult) ways of complying with it so that the demand for rugged, reliable, military style rifles that shoot inexpensive ammunition could be met. That period also coincided with the rapid increase in speed and power of communication via the Internet, which led to widespread awareness of the ban, its pointlessness, and the risk it represented of a slippery slope leading potentially to bans on other kinds of popular firearms.

I believe there would be fewer semiautomatic AK type rifles in circulation in this country if the ban had never taken place. I cannot prove that, but it seems to me there are many people who are attracted to things that are forbidden. I am guilty of this myself, having acquired several of the firearms in my collection in response to impending bans.

BTW - I do not own any AK type rifles. I've never been interested enough in them to spend the money.

[Hoof Hearted]

49. Omaha cheif of police says it is. I'll take his word for it. n/t

[slackmaster]

50. Believe what you wish, but appeals to "isness" never accomplish anything useful

See if you can describe what characteristics of the firearm you believe make it especially dangerous, without deferring to someone else's opinion or using the crutch of the verb "to be".

[Paladin]

54. Give It A Rest, Slack

All you're doing is dealing in the standard gun activist "isn'tness" drivel ("That gun ISN'T an assault weapon, because...."), trying to control the argument by controllng the vocabulary, and honing in on the esoteric details of the gun involved to deflect attention from the horror of another murderous shooting spree. Same little tapdance we see here after every one of these incidents from you and your guncentric pals.

I'm with Hoof Hearted on this one---if the Chief of Police said it's an assault weapon, that suits me fine....

[Tejas]

59. selective idolism will get you everytime

"Rosie and Chucky and Sarah and CNN and...................said it. That makes it so!

"Look, even some LEO said it! That makes it double-so!"


speaking of drivel...

[slackmaster]

64. The Chief of Police is just one person with one opinion

And you know what they say about opinions. His position does not give his opinion any special weight.

My view, as stated many times, is that taking the rifle out of the hands of a deranged lunatic doesn't fix the problem - You still have a homicidal lunatic who will be inclined to find a different weapon. The Omaha mall shooter could easily have done as much damage with a pump shotgun or homemade bomb, or an automobile.

The problem is the person, not the weapon.

[krispos42]

63. Of course it was an assault weapon

Since the meaning of 'assault weapon' is arbitrary, might as well use the term, right? After all, what harm can possibly be done by using arbitrary, perjorative terms in the American political scene???

So I'm going to go off now and write my congressman about how much I support tax relief and enhanced interrogation techniques, the repeal of the death tax, creationist teachings in my school, and partial-birth abortions banned. I'm not going to write about how much I want tax cuts for rich people and torture, the repeal of the estate tax, un-Christian education removed from my school, and late-term abortions banned. Nope, because that would not suit my political goals.

<sigh>

This might be good reading for you if you're curious about when the Democratic Party jumped on the "ban assault weapons" bandwagon.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x136200