Maybe Bush WAS at least partially right- for the first time in his life- about Chavez.

[Guaranteed]

Venezuelans don't seem happy with what is happening to their country. I don't like it either. Chavez seemed like a good man because he was willing to stand up to Bush when others weren't, but- no term limits? The media manipulations, the treatment of dissent....

Folks, it's about the means. Not the ends.

If a political leader starts acting like this, it doesn't matter what his vision for the country is. He's already ruining everything.

DUers need to wake up a bit. Chavez needs to hear it from his own supporters- "Not like this."

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. Chavez isn't much different from Shrubbie, or any other communist tyrant.

I had some hopes that he'd be different than the rest of the Central and South American leaders, but I always had a feeling he'd be just as much of a fuck as the rest of 'em.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. Rabrrrrr, whatever Chavez is, it's none of our business, and

the current media blitz is most likely trying to soften the American people to accept a coup a la Allende 1973.

Unlike those idiots in Pakistan (who have had nukes for years), Chavez isn't dangerous to anyone except the oil companies.

[Rabrrrrrr]

19. You are very right on that one - his existence as an elected leader

is not any business of the US.

But we sadly seem to keep wanting to fuck around in that area ourselves, especially to get rid of legally elected leaders and set up our own puppets who are even worse.

Chavez is a fucking psycho wanker IMO (though I do appreciate all his anti-Shrubbie tirades!), but it's up to the Venezuelan people to get rid of him if they want, or to keep him if they want.

The US really needs to stop fucking with other countries.

[EFerrari]

44. Please tell me this is a funny.

He's fed a lot of people since he was elected.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

I can't believe Chavez put Bhutto under house arrest.

And to think we're friends with these people.

[Cha]

3. That's about

the size of it.

[Gabi Hayes]

5. right-O! don't you wish he'd quit making up such fantastical tales, ones like

the CIA/US/big business would ever CONSIDER an idea like staging a coup in his country

such a thing could NEVER, EVER happen

could it?

I think not.

how dare anyone even consider the though

we spread only FREEDOM throughout the world

and it's HARD work

[lumpy]

20. Benazir Bhutto ? If that is, who you are taking ,about, she is

a Pakistani, not Venezuelan.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. That's just what the liberal media wants you to think.

We all know what pro-chavez bias the truth has. Why else do you think he's constantly forcing us to make things up?

[Gabi Hayes]

33. ahhhhhhh bwahhhhhh

el hooko

line

sinker

can you reel any more in?

[EFerrari]

41. lol

:rofl:

[Guaranteed]

51. You laugh a lot, but you're not making much sense.

Truly, your "support" for this guy has no substance.

You seem to be very aware of what is going on, but- you just kind of don't give a shit.

Dangerous, dangerous stuff.

[alittlelark]

52. I have a friend from Venezuela (20+ yrs in the US)

Her family Loves Chavez, their neighbors Love Chavez. The opposition to Chavez is upper class, primarily those of Spaniard lineage (pale skin).

[Guaranteed]

53. Do you think that matters that much?

Likely, when thinking about changing the Constitution, people should be evaluating the wisdom- the long-term effects and risks- of putting so much power in one person.

In creating the foundation of government, if one thinks short-sighted, one will likely be thinking short-sighted once again in the near future- in trying to create another foundation.

Do you think dissenting voices- in a HEALTHY democracy- should be so easily silenced?

[alittlelark]

60. When the 'voices that need to be heard' are backed by corporations...

uh, yeah. When the voices are backed by BIG $$$$ and old Spaniard 'pure-blood' families (who consider Chavez to be beneath them), yeah. When those few w/ HUGE amts of $$$$ and power attempt to conquer the 95% 'beneath' them.

S America has been tending left from the very beginning - WE have thrown $$$, weapons and SOA trained ppl in to get the result 'we want'.


Look at the skin colors of those supporting and opposing Chavez.... 'nuff said.

[ConsAreLiars]

67. Well said. As usual, it just comes down to deciding which side of imperialism

versus the mass of common people one chooses. Some don't see it that way (or maybe they do), bur that is what it is all about. Chimpy and the PNAC gang know this, and those who align themselves with them either agree and support those goals, or they are being played for fools and used as tools.

[alittlelark]

71. 'played for fools and used as tools'... well said, sad that many here are

'played for fools and used as tools'.

[Guaranteed]

74. No. This is about REAL democracy.

Don't use the word unless you mean it, alright?

Thanks.

[ConsAreLiars]

79. Like here?

Where money rules. If that is what you mean then your position in favor of the (previously) ruling elite in Venezuela is at least consistent. If by "REAL democracy" you mean power to the people, well, then, you are deluded at best and deliberately deceptive at worst. It is class war there, as it is here. Which side are you on? Oh, never mind, you've already answered that, but which side do you want to be on? Maybe ponder that for a few days.

[Guaranteed]

80. No, that's not what I mean at all.

And the side that I'm on is the one that wants to set up a foundation for its government that will last- not be changed every ten years depending on who happens to be in power at the time.

HEALTHY democracy.

That means the influence of the people must be strongest- stronger than that of corporations (who themselves should perhaps have no influence at all)- but it is NOT to say that those iindividuals who have money have nothing to say. A rigorous discussion about the consequences of policy is ALWAYS necessary.

That is the democracy that will have the best interest of its people in mind.

[Guaranteed]

73. So- you don't think rich people should have the same speech rights as poor people.

I suppose that if you won't let them express themselves, you wouldn't let them vote, either.

So- why even have an election?

Or- maybe this isn't an election? ARE rich people going to have their votes counted like any others?

[alittlelark]

76. Are you for REAL?!? You think the rich are possibly oppressed?

Their voices are unheard, even w/ the ownwership of media and mega-corporations? That oppressed >1% needs to be protected (especially their $$$$$).


They are SOOOOO OPPRESSED ... Please, call 'Human Rights Watch' and record your concerns w/ them.

[Guaranteed]

77. OK, you don't get to talk about democracy anymore.

Everyone gets to vote in a democracy. That's a pretty basic one.

[alittlelark]

78. Uh, Yeah, they 'get to talk'... those w/ +$$$$ have MANY more words.

Always have always will.

What is your issue w/the rest of us. Why are you supporting BIG $$$ interests. Look at the Venezuelan ppl., they recognize what their interests are.... do you think they are uninformed or stupid?


Why is it that our US Corporate MSM is sooo anti-Chavez?


Do you get it, or are you just 'rabble rousing'?

[razors edge]

92. Damned good point.

I agree totally, Do you think Hillary will get rid of the patriot act and reverse all presidential signing statements?

Edit: sp

[me b zola]

63. No, BGL, your post(s) have no substance (on this subject)

Beth has given substantive posts on this subject repeatedly. How often does a person need to repeat truths & facts? I do see, however, posts like yours lacking in facts or substance meant to inflame and/or misinform (I don't believe that you are intentionally trying to misinform).

I will agree with you that Beth seems to be very aware of what is going on, but I believe that it is because she does give a shit that she mocks the premise of your OP.


Dangerous, dangerous stuff indeed.

[Guaranteed]

72. When you ignore or pass off as insignificant the method by which a political leader

consolidates his power, because you don't like SOME of the people he opposes, you have lost the forest for the trees. And you don't get to justify those actions by their results- because the oppressive structure and function of the government will remain.

You want substance? Have a look here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2381055&mesg_id=2382354

But try not to let your preconceptions get in the way of what is happening there.


The only responses I've gotten from any of the pro-Chavez people are joking or otherwise evasive. They don't WANT to see this.

[Fed_Up_Grammy]

2. Chavez is a psycho and all of those Hollywood folks that

have been kissing his ass should be ashamed of themselves.

[AlCzervik]

9. wow Grammy, eat the rich hollywood types then?

[razors edge]

48. I heard the psycho once invaded

another country and killed like a million of them for their oil, and his people reelected him afterwards.

No, wait, he's got oil, that was some other country, never mind.

[Zhade]

54. Plus, he fomented a coup attempt that ended with the deposed leader returned to power by the people!

Oh, wait, that was the U.S. that did that to Chavez.

[razors edge]

85. Yep.

Bout sums it it up.

[JanMichael]

4. Bullshit. "Venezuelans don't seem happy"? Don't dare speak for them all!

The rich (Relatively speaking and in real terms) in Venezuela are indeed upset...that does not include the People who are the vast majority.

Don't let our Corpo media make "reality", thanks.

[ret5hd]

10. Oh don't get your panties in a knot!!!

He was only talking about the ones that COUNT! You know, the light-skinned ones. The ones that call Chavez a "monkey".

[Guaranteed]

11. Well, how would- strike that, how DO you feel about these types of tactics

being used by your own political leaders?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. What particular tactic do you take issue with?

Holding elections?

[JanMichael]

27. An anathema to all tools of the plutocracy.

The will of the rich (those who own the press too)is all that counts.

[Zhade]

55. Yeah, what WERE the UN, OAS and Carter Center thinking when they ratified Venezuela's elections?

All that transparency and accountability! The horror!

[leftchick]

31. thanks for the reality check JM

it amazes me how many progressives are believing the M$M bullshit in regard to Chavez. Simply shocking!

[Zhade]

57. It's not all that surprising - this is what decades of propaganda do to a people.

Especially to stubborn, I'm-always-right-fuck-your-facts citizens like in the U.S.

[Guaranteed]

75. If you're referring to studying the U.S. Constitution in 8th and 12th grades, the

the ideas of our founding fathers, the fundamentals of democracy, as propaganda- well, I think it would be harsh to call it that.

I think you've gotten pretty caught up in a position and lost your principles.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

6. What I don't like is that with all the real, no-holds-barred dictators

in the world, there seems to be a concerted media effort to focus on Chavez's shortcomings.

I'm not saying that Chavez is a saint, but what has gotten him on the establishment's shit list (even before he made these proposals) is not being properly subservient to the oil companies.

This kind of anti-Chavez media blitz is exactly like what happened before the CIA instigated a coup against Salvador Allende in Chile in 1973 and during the time that Reagan was "covertly" (except that everyone knew it) funding anti-Sandinista guerillas, during precisely the time when our "friends" in Argentina, Uruguay, South Africa, Guatemala, El Salvador, and Saudi Arabia were committing incredible human rights abuses.

[Zhade]

58. Not to mention, it's exactly the same as before the 2002 admin-backed coup against Chavez.

We've already SEEN this movie, and people have completely forgotten it.

[Selatius]

7. We will see how happy Venezuelans are when they vote. Let them speak for themselves for once.

I welcome the referendum as a chance to hear what voters down there have to say.

[IsItJustMe]

8. You may wish to learn the result of the referendum in Venezuela before you start telling us how

unhappy the people are there. But it sounds like you have already made up your mind about how folks feel over there.

Are you from there? How do you know this? Just wondering.

[Guaranteed]

13. No, but one of my best friends has been there-

actually working for Chavez- for a number of years.

I haven't talked to him directly about this yet. But I just got an email from him and he's at least recognizing that there are some real issues here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. I know this guy whose uncle says Chavez did the 9-11.

I swear to God!

[Guaranteed]

22. Tell ya what.

Why don't you listen to him tomorrow? He's doing a radio show with the mayor of Caracas here:

http://radiovenezuelaenvivo.blogspot.com/

7 to 8 PM Venezuela time (I don't know the conversion).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Tell ya what.

If Venezuelans are unhappy with the referendum, they can vote against it.

[mitchtv]

34. any relation to Fed up Grammy?

how'd she get a post with no number anyway?

[Zhade]

59. Or he's swallowing the spin from Venezuela's version of Fox News.

You know, the broadcasts that label Chavez a monkey and shit.

You're assuming your friend is immune to the propaganda from Chavez's righwing opponents. He could be very wrong on this, who knows?

[Guaranteed]

70. He WORKS FOR Chavez.

That seems unlikely.

Have a look at the website, as well. It's pretty pro-Chavez.

[Donnachaidh]

14. your post would have relevance if you had a LINK to back it up.

Exactly what are you basing the "Venezuelans don't seem happy with what is happening to their country" bit on?

[Guaranteed]

15. The report of 100,000 people in the streets of Caracas chanting

"Not like this!"

[devilgrrl]

46. Got any photos of the rally????

Bet it looked a lot like this....

[Guaranteed]

50. Yes, here.

But it didn't exactly look how you wanted it to look.

Here's a whole article and a three-minute video from the Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,2219720,00.html

I gotta say- and this is the Guardian- The Chavez supporters in this video seem like the stupid ones, and the people opposing seem like the smart ones.

It's really not a good idea to put so much power in one person. I think that statement speaks its own truth.

Chavez' speech said a lot about him, too. Look at what happened to the demonstrators. And Chavez basically said that the people he characterized as rich people, some of whom probably are, don't get to protest anything.

[devilgrrl]

56. I remain unmoved but nice try.

:hi:

[Guaranteed]

68. Hey, you asked. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. Term limits. The terrible tyrant FDR was elected 4 times.

The 22nd Amendment was fostered by Republicans to prevent another Dictator like FDR ever achieving and establishing another such tyranny again.

Most democracies don't have term limits.

[cali]

36. True enough

and I don't have any problem with democracies without term limits. I do find a leader proposing changing the law to benefit himself, a bit self-serving however.

[AlCzervik]

17. i bet there are many more people in Venezuela right now saying "those Americans are really unhappy"

[liberalmuse]

23. The thing is, Bush is NEVER right.

If the people of Venezuela don't like Chavez, they will take to the streets in very large numbers. Unlike Americans, they won't sit on their asses if they don't like their government's policies. I think it's the corporate media and the top $5% who don't like Chavez. Anyway, I don't like what I'm reading about him in the mainstream media, which is very unfavorable (that's your clue right there-FUCK the MSM). Knowing how the MSM distorts in favor of the wealthy and powerful, I will reserve my judgement of Chavez. The Imperialist natural resource rapists and looters really have a lot to lose with Chavez in power.

[Cha]

39. Yeah, m$$$$$$m?

Chavez? Oh, that's a tough one. Chavez is for the Pobrecitas not the fascist elite..and they can't stand that.

They hate him.

[Zhade]

61. Heck, they already took to the streets to RESTORE HIM TO HIS OFFICE.

You know, after our government gave aid and comfort to the rightwing coup, after which the first act of the ones who seized power was to rip up Venezuela's constitution.

[durrrty libby]

26. A few years ago I worked with 2 doctors from Venezuela

They absolutely hated Chavez. Hate..hate..hated him

[devilgrrl]

47. And there you have it!!!!

:eyes:

[Zhade]

62. On the basis of such overwhelming evidence, I say he must be hung!

No, better - draw n quarter the bastard, all because two docs you knew once hated the guy for who knows what reason!

BURN HIM!

:eyes:

[durrrty libby]

82. They said he was destroying their country. I forget the details

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. They may mean, "He's destroying our country by making the

poor people uppity so that it's harder to find good servants."

A doctor who can travel abroad is upper class in Third World countries.

[durrrty libby]

90. You and the other bashers have it all wrong and it was fun to see how

instantly nasty you all got.

They had some very interesting and revealing experiences,

but since you all have your little closed minds made up, I won't

waste the time

[KoKo]

87. You might have worked with a couple of NeoCons who hated Saddam

and posted here, too. So what? You worked with two folks who hate Chavez but they are "here" and who knows why they are here... But, it was two opinions. Voters elected Chavez even when US sent Carville and Begalla to do their Clinton Magic for his opponent.

[durrrty libby]

96. Maybe someday you will make sense, but surely not in the near future

[Zorra]

28. Given the wealth, power, and lack of integrity of the globalist fascists,

I can relate to why Chavez would want to allow the people of his country to vote to decide if they want to allow a protectionist leader more time to establish a "fascist proof" sovereign democracy.

We have, undeniably, repeatedly witnessed how fascist administrations like those of Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and G.W. Bu*h conduct wars, occupations, illegal activities, and covert operations against sovereign governments in order to protect global fascist interests.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I totally trust Chavez; he has the potential to be a bigger egomaniacal asshole than Castro. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned.

I'm just saying that there may be a very valid reason for his actions. If he does it righteous, he could turn out to be a great leader.

If he does it for wealth and power, he's just another meglomaniacal fascist in democrat clothing.

[MiniMe]

29. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day

[bbinacan]

30. I've got to agree. n/t

[Peace Patriot]

32. Chavez was re-elected with 63% of the vote this last December, in highly

transparent and monitored elections. He enjoys a 70% approval rating, in a country that is showing a spectacular growth rate of about 10%, with the biggest growth in the PRIVATE sector. He's made good on his promises. He's using the country's oil wealth as a bootstrap to the vast poor majority--ravaged by decades of corruption and mismanagement by the rightwing elite in cahoots with the U.S. and global corporate predators.

The 100,000 or so-strong demo that just occurred is one sign of the health of Venezuelan democracy. There is absolutely no evidence of repression. None. Zero. Zilch. But this demo is unhealthy in one respect. Many of the groups involved in it are funded by the U.S./Bush through USAID-NED and other budgets (transparent ones and black budgets, I'm sure)--our taxpayer money. So it is probably not so much a demo of sentiment as it is a demo of the power of money. Some are probably sincere. Others just want a rightwing dictatorship--which they have shown, time and again, including with an outright coup attempt.

I believe that the "Yes" demonstrators were out today--no doubt in the hundreds of thousands. We'll see how our war profiteering corporate news monopolies cover these. (Har-har.)

I recommend this site for the other side of things: www.venezuelanalysis.com.

[Warren Stupidity]

35. If Hugo Invades One More Country I'm Done WIth Him!

Meanwhile we will see soon enough if "Venezuelans don't seem happy with what is happening to their country" or you are being spoon fed bullshit from the false noise machine. What will your explanation be if the referendum passes?

"If a political leader starts acting like this" - yeah how dare leaders demand that the people ratify through the ballot box significant changes to their government structure! That alone deserves covert intervention, perhaps even overt intervention. We cannot have popular democracy like this. If people here see that Venezuelans actually get to decide for themselves such important issues, pretty soon they are going to demand to have a say in how this country is run, and that would be a disaster.

[Tulum_Moon]

37. It is none of our business

We have no say in other elections. We need to worry about our country and how * is going to stay in power.

[Gabi Hayes]

38. we have no say in our OWN elections. did you see the thread here tonight,

in which the person's vote changed before his/her EYES?

we are so sca rewed

[Cha]

42. It's kinda our business..

cause the bushites wanna wipe out Democracy in the Southern Hemisphere, too..especially the countries have that OIL.

[EFerrari]

40. No kidding! Once your president works to get gay rights into the Constitution,

fuck him!

That's it!

Enough with empowering people for your own gain!

:rofl:

[Guaranteed]

49. You're just avoiding the issue of what he's doing,

and, ultimately, making an "ends justifies the means" argument, which you very well know is wrong.

[Zhade]

64. YOU'RE avoiding the fact that this is an ELECTION.

One that will be highly monitored by the US, OAS and likely the Carter Center - like the last few they signed off on as transparent and full of accountability.

The people will decide, so it's not CHAVEZ doing it. They get to say "no" without fear of being jacked in the night - or seeing their votes change before their very eyes, like here.

Think about it. This government already aided a coup in 2002 that ended with the people of Venezuela DYING to restore their duly elected president to office.

There is a history here, and Chavez is NOT unilaterally changing the law. That's an outright lie that no one should be telling you or I.

[Guaranteed]

69. An election in which the opposition is being forcibly beaten down?

Where, according to Chavez- and I saw him say this on video- the opposition shouldn't be allowed to protest?

[go west young man]

81. Maybe the opposition should be allotted a parking lot 5 miles from

the center of government like here in our democracy. They can file a petition and hope it gets approved and if it does they can go there and protest but not be allowed any signs as the wooden sticks could be used as weapons to injure themselves with in their fenced in area. Then if they step out of that boundary they could be arrested or tear gassed or tasered while their cameras are confiscated and picturs are deleted. Then they're names could be added to a terrorist watch/no fly list and they're criminal record scarred. If they're lucky they can vote on a secret propreitary electronic machine that is contolled by their government and it's corporate friends. Trust me it's all on the up and up. The Secretary of State who will be a member of the winning party and an appointee of the winning president's brother will make sure all the precincts count correctly and get allotted the right amount of machines. If all else fails the Supreme friends of the winning president will decide the outcome of the vote after party members storm the election building! It's called democracy! Enjoy!

[KoKo]

88. sad...but so true...

[1932]

43. Acting like what? Constantly putting important matters up for a vote?

[Zhade]

65. Yeah, how dare citizens vote on their own laws through transparent elections!

That's not the American way!

[devilgrrl]

45. What a bunch of baseless bullshit.

:popcorn:

[Union Thug]

66. Gawd I love Chavez!!! Give 'em hell, baby!

And I love how the mere mention of his name makes DUers eat eachother alive. Beautiful.

[Guaranteed]

84. Kick nt

[KoKo]

86. You watch alot of CNN...do you?

:shrug:

[Whisp]

89. rofl

:rofl:
what is being owned is your thought processes, owned and trade marked and stamped by Chimpy.Co. and friends.

[marmar]

91. "Venezuelans don't seem happy with what is happening to their country."

Based on what? Did you fly down and talk to the majority of Venezuelans? And if they're unhappy, why are they voting in favor of it?

[sendero]

93. We still kiss Musharraf's ass..

... how is he better than Chavez?

In fact, we kiss the asses of tyrants all around the world. If it has to be a tyrant, I'd at least prefer a leftist version. They might at least help SOME regular people, with the right version it's all about the rich getting richer.

[Cha]

94. Does muharraf have

oil?

[EFerrari]

95. Oh, please. What media manipulation?

You mean not allowing the media to call for armed insurrection?

What treatment of dissent? There are photographs of marches plastered all over the internet.

And, you know what, Amerika doeosn't hold th franchise on democracy. Venezuela is working theirs out. And as Jefferson said, the constitution belongs to the living.

The means in this case has been a month long propaganda blitz in the US. Looks like it worked!

[dysfunctional press]

97. bush wasn't right, lord acton was-

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."