Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login

The Only Way to Stop the Bush/Cheney Torture Program Is to Cut it out at its Rotten Core

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 06:29 PM
Original message
The Only Way to Stop the Bush/Cheney Torture Program Is to Cut it out at its Rotten Core
It should be apparent by now that there is only one thing that will have much of an effect on Bush administration torture policies and actions. Confirmation fights over Attorney General or any other office are the equivalent of trying to restore a tree to life by cutting off its branches when the whole tree is rotten to the core. George W. Bush and Dick Cheney are the rotten core of the most corrupt presidential administration in U.S. history. The only action that has any reasonable chance of terminating the Bush/Cheney torture policies is the impeachment and removal from office of the rotten core itself.

To make that point one need only consider how Bush administration torture policies have played out over time how refractory they have been to any Congressional efforts to maintain oversight over them or reign them in. Under pressure from Congress the Bush administration has sometimes made temporary or superficial concessions in name only, while continuing on with its preferred barbaric policies in secret:

A timeline of Bush administration torture policies

The initial post-September 11th period
A recent New York Times article by Scott Shane, David Johnston and James Risen describes the initial post-9-11 rush by the Bush administration to initiate its illegal torture policies:

The debate over how terrorist suspects should be held and questioned began shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, when the Bush administration adopted secret detention and coercive interrogation, both practices the United States had previously denounced when used by other countries. It adopted the new measures without public debate or Congressional vote, choosing to rely instead on the confidential legal advice of a handful of appointees.

February 7, 2002 Presidential directive justifying torture
Bush administration torture policies were first given formal expression on February 7, 2002, with a presidential directive that described policies that clearly violated U.S. and international law and the U.S. Constitution. Some of the main points included in the directive were:
 The U.S. must treat prisoners humanely only to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity.
 The CIA and other non-military personnel are exempt even from the above limitation concerning military necessity.
 Limitations on torture do not apply at all to non- U.S. citizens outside the U.S.

Shane, Johnston, and Risen describe the extent to which these policies were unprecedented in U.S. history, and yet of little or no value in combating terrorism:

The Bush administration had entered uncharted legal territory beginning in 2002, holding prisoners outside the scrutiny of the International Red Cross and subjecting them to harrowing pressure tactics. They included slaps to the head; hours held naked in a frigid cell; days and nights without sleep while battered by thundering rock music; long periods manacled in stress positions; or the ultimate, waterboarding.

Never in history had the United States authorized such tactics. While President Bush and C.I.A. officials would later insist that the harsh measures produced crucial intelligence, many veteran interrogators, psychologists and other experts say that less coercive methods are equally or more effective.

August 1, 2002 John Yoo (Office of Legal Counsel) torture memo of August 1, 2002
On August 1, 2002, John Yoo from the Office of Legal Counsel distributed a memo that served as legal justification for the worst torture abuses of the Bush administration. Known as the torture memo, it was later leaked and found to include the following major points:
 Limitations on torture dont apply to the War on Terror.
 Limitations on torture dont apply to the presidents role as Commander-in-Chief.
 It is not torture if it was not the precise objective of the action, even if it was certain or reasonably likely to result.
 To constitute torture, pain must be akin to that accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death.

June-December 2004 reversal of the John Yoo torture policy
However, after John Yoo left the Office of Legal Council in 2003, the new Office chief Jack Goldsmith began reviewing his work and didnt like what he saw. Shane, Johnston and Risen describe what happened:

Then, in June 2004, Mr. Goldsmith formally withdrew the August 2002 Yoo memorandum on interrogation, which he found overreaching and poorly reasoned. Mr. Goldsmith, who left the Justice Department soon afterward, testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee

When the Justice Department publicly declared torture abhorrent in a legal opinion in December 2004, the Bush administration appeared to have abandoned its assertion of nearly unlimited presidential authority to order brutal interrogations.

February 2005 re-institution of harsh and illegal torture policies by Attorney General Gonzales
But it didnt take long for the new attorney General, Alberto Gonzales, to get things back on track in accordance with the wishes of the Bush administration:

But soon after Alberto R. Gonzaless arrival as attorney general in February 2005, the Justice Department issued another opinion, this one in secret. It was a very different document, according to officials briefed on it, an expansive endorsement of the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.

The new opinion, the officials said, for the first time provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures

Later that year, as Congress moved toward outlawing cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, the Justice Department issued another secret opinion, one most lawmakers did not know existed, current and former officials said. The Justice Department document declared that none of the C.I.A. interrogation methods violated that standard.

Congress and the Supreme Court have intervened repeatedly in the last two years to impose limits on interrogations, and the administration has responded as a policy matter by dropping the most extreme techniques. But the 2005 Justice Department opinions remain in effect, and their legal conclusions have been confirmed by several more recent memorandums, officials said. They show how the White House has succeeded in preserving the broadest possible legal latitude for harsh tactics.

November 2005 Torturer-in-chief explains his policies
In November 2005, as a consequence of international outrage over new revelations of secret CIA prisons, Bush was asked by a reporter whether the CIA was exempt from laws banning torture and whether or not the International Red Cross should have access to those prisons to ensure compliance with international law. Bushs non-responsive answer was a masterpiece of Orwellian double talk:

Our country is at war and our government has the obligation to protect the American people. We are finding terrorists and bringing them to justice. We are gathering information on where the terrorists may be hiding. We are trying to disrupt their plots and plans.

Anything we do to that effort to that end in this effort any activity we conduct is within the law We do not torture.

In other words, anything that George Bush declares to be legal is legal. BUT, even though torture is legal, we dont do it.

July 2006 Presidential executive order secretly authorizing enhanced interrogation
In addition to George Bushs refusals to provide straight answers to questions about his torture policies, another reason why its so hard to pin down what the Bush administration is up to is that so many of its orders are secret. Shane, Johnston and Risen describe the clarification of Bush torture polices with a secret presidential executive order of July 2006:

In July, after a month long debate inside the administration, President Bush signed a new executive order authorizing the use of what the administration calls enhanced interrogation techniques the details remain secret and officials say the C.I.A. again is holding prisoners in black sites overseas.

December 2006 presidential signing statement declaring George Bushs right to order torture
Following a battle between Bush and Congress, including even many Republicans, Congress passed the Military Commissions Act of 2006 which, despite several outrageous positions, at least made torture illegal.

But no matter. Bush simply issued a signing statement, which nullified the anti-torture provision of the Military Commissions Act, declaring that:

he will view the interrogation limits in the context of his broader powers to protect national security. This means Bush believes he can waive the restrictions, the White House and legal specialists said.

''The executive branch shall construe (the law) in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President . . . as Commander in Chief," Bush wrote, adding that this approach ''will assist in achieving the shared objective of the Congress and the President . . . of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks."

July 2007 executive order
Most recently, another executive order in July 2007 again made clear that the Bush torture policies remain intact. Jane Mayer explains:

Bushs order pointedly did not disavow the use of enhanced interrogation techniques that would likely be found illegal if used by officials inside the United States. The executive order means that the agency can once again hold foreign terror suspects indefinitely, and without charges, in black sites, without notifying their families or local authorities, or offering access to legal counsel.

Widespread evidence of torture in practice by the Bush administration

It is also important to look at how the stated general policies of the Bush administration have translated into policies on the ground and into actual practice. I have described those practices in much detail in a previous post. Here is a brief summary of what several different sources have had to say on this subject, proving that torture of its prisoners by the U.S. government is widespread and systematic under the leadership of George Bush and Dick Cheney:

Torture at Abu Ghraib was definitely NOT the work of a few bad apples
In testimony before the International Commission of Inquiry on Crimes against Humanity Committed by the Bush Administration, Janis Karpinski, former Brigadier General and Commander of Abu Ghraib Prison, made it known that the torture scandal at Abu Ghraib was anything but the work of a few bad apples. To the contrary, Karpinski said that:

General (Ricardo) Sanchez (commander of coalition ground forces in Iraq) himself signed the eight-page memorandum authorizing literally a laundry list of harsher techniques in interrogations to include specific use of dogs and muzzled dogs with his specific permission.

She also testified that:

Major General Geoffrey was dispatched to Iraq by the Bush administration to work with the military intelligence personnel to teach them new and improved interrogation techniques. Miller told Karpinski that It is my opinion that you are treating the prisoners too well. At Guantanamo Bay, the prisoners know that we are in charge and they know that from the very beginning. You have to treat the prisoners like dogs. And if they think or feel any differently you have effectively lost control of the interrogation. Miller also told Karpinski that military police guarding the prisons were following orders in a memorandum signed by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, approving harsher interrogation techniques.

Other testimony of torture of U.S. prisoners
Captain James Yee was a former U.S. Army Chaplain at Guantanamo Bay for several months. He wrote a detailed account of his observations in his book, For God and Country, which I summarize in a DU post. Here is Yees account of a common practice encouraged by the camp Commander, Major General Jeoffrey Miller:

General Miller had a saying. The fight is on! This was a subtle way of saying that rules regarding the treatment of detainees were relaxed Guards retaliated in whatever way was most convenient at the moment. The troopers called it IRFing. Carried out by a group of six to eight guards called the Initial Response Force. put on riot protection gear. Then they rushed the block, one behind the other, where the offending detainee was. It sounded like a stampede. drenched the prisoner with pepper spray and then opened the cell door. The others charged in and rushed the detainee. tied the detainees wrists behind his back and then his ankles. then dragged the detainee from his cell and down the corridor. to solitary confinement.

Here is Senator Durbins account of eye witness testimony from an FBI agent:

On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food, or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for eighteen to twenty-four hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold On another occasion, the air conditioner had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion. with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.

Here is a summary from a report by Amnesty International:

Four years since the first transfers to Guantnamo, approximately 500 men of around 35 nationalities remain held at the detention facility unlawfully. Reports from the detainees and their lawyers suggest that many have been subjected to torture or other forms of ill-treatment in Guantnamo or in other US detention centres There have been numerous suicide attempts and fears for the physical and psychological welfare of the detainees increase as each day of indefinite detention passes.

Here is a summary statement on Bush administration torture practices from investigative reporter Seymour Hersh, from his book, Chain of Command:

Public interest groups such as Human Rights Watch and the ACLU continue to churn out report after report demonstrating that systematic military abuse of American prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan, and at Guantanamo, Cuba, is widespread and tolerated..

Thus, we are confronted with a gap between what we read and hear about what is really going on from prisoners and human rights groups and what the official inquiries tell us We have a President who assures us that there is no American policy condoning or abetting torture when, as we can see with our eyes, the opposite is true

And, I also note in my other post 21 different torture practices documented by the Center for Constitutional Rights, from their book, Articles of Impeachment against George W. Bush.

How widespread is the Bush prison system?

Estimates of how many prisoners have disappeared into the Bush administrations Gulag system cannot be precise because of the secrecy. Estimates have varied from 8,500 to 35,000. An AP story estimated around 14,000:

In the few short years since the first shackled Afghan shuffled off to Guantanamo, the U.S. military has created a global network of overseas prisons, its islands of high security keeping 14,000 detainees beyond the reach of established law.

Colonel Larry Wilkerson, former Chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, who had put the blame on Dick Cheney for much of the administrations torture guidance, claims that the number of disappeared approximates 35,000.


Rush Limbaugh and other right wing idiots have belittled evidence of torture by claiming, even when the photographic evidence at Abu Ghraib was publicized, that U.S. treatment of its prisoners is no different than fraternity hazing of pledges.

However, a 2005 analysis of 44 autopsies reported by the ACLU, of men who died in our detention facilities, exposes those claims for the lies that they are. That study found 21 of the 44 deaths evaluated by autopsy to be homicides:

The American Civil Liberties Union today made public an analysis of new and previously released autopsy and death reports of detainees held in U.S. facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom died while being interrogated. The documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled, beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot and cold environmental conditions.

Keep in mind that that study involved only a small fraction of the total number of detainees dying in the largely secret U.S. prison system since September 11, 2001. We will probably never know for sure the full extent of these barbaric homicides.

Bush administration claims that its prisoners are the worst of the worst

While repeatedly proclaiming that we dont torture, the Bush administration has also repeatedly attempted to make the American people feel good about its we dont torture program by claiming that our prisoners in George Bushs War on Terror are the worst of the worst. But the facts tell a very different story from that:

Major General Antonio Taguba, charged with investigating the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, said that A lack of proper screening meant that many innocent Iraqis were being detained (in some cases indefinitely) and that 60% of civilian prisoners at Abu Ghraib were deemed not to be a threat to society. And the International Red Cross said that between 70 percent and 90 percent of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake.

Furthermore, the Bush administration has no right to claim that its prisoners are the worst of the worst even if there isnt a vast amount of evidence or any evidence to the contrary. The vast majority of its prisoners have neither been tried nor even charged with a crime. They are spirited away to remote corners of the earth, and the good majority of them have no contact with the outside world, including either families or legal counsel. They have no opportunity to tell their story. How does the Bush administration, which leads a country that espouses innocent until proven guilty, dare to make pronouncements on the guilt or innocence of its thousands of prisoners?


Thus it is clear that the Bush administration torture policies originate from the very top and are virtually impervious to attempts by anyone else, inside or outside the Bush administration, to change them. Those torture policies violate international law, U.S. domestic law, and the U.S. Constitutions Eighth Amendment protection against cruel and unusual punishment.

If the United States of America is to reclaim its place among the civilized nations of the world, half measures aimed at cutting off the peripheral branches of an administration that is rotten to the core will not do. Rather, the root of the problem must be attacked by impeaching and removing from office those who have propagated these barbaric policies for the past six years George Bush and Dick Cheney. Their torture policies are just one of several impeachable offenses for which a multitude of evidence exists to convict them of high crimes and misdemeanors. There are several others to choose from.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. If only our Democratic leaders would use the impeachment scalpel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Their failure to do that is my biggest disappointment of this Congress
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Sam Ervin jret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Prosecution for those who ordered this treatment is essential for returning our Constitutional

The President knows he is in the cross hairs for conspirisy to commit torture for ordering this treatment. As are many in his administration. This is why the "want to be" Atty. Gen. will NOT admit that water boarding is torture. The people who carried out the orders must be held accountable so that they will testify against those above them in the chain of command.

How could this even be a question? Must we clarify that burning a child with a hot iron is child abuse? Is it not clear that it is so? By definition? By past prosecutions? By common sense? Must we outline and define every single outrageous thing one cannot do to another person while they are in the custody of the state, in the custody of our civil SERVANTS?

The argument strains credibility even in this day and under this administration.

And that my friends, is saying something.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. I agree it shouldn't be necessary to clarify each case
Congress has banned torture (although it could be argued that was unnecessary because our Constitution has already banned it), waterboarding is torture, and Bush has claimed that the ban on torture doesn't apply to him if he says it doesn't.

Yes, those who carried out the orders should be held accountable for their torture, and so should Bush and Cheney. I don't know that Congress needs more witnesses -- Bush signed several torture orders and they were carried out -- many even died from their interrogations. I don't see what other evidence they need?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. How many votes would it take to at least pass a nonbinding resolution
specifically condemning certain practices including waterboarding, stress positions for long periods, use of cold and electric shocks as torture? Could Congress pass a resolution against torture the way it did against Move-On? I realize that Congress passed some kind of bill on this that was altered in Bush's view by a signing statement, but it seems the message did not get through to Bush. Surely condemning torture is just as worthy a use of Congress' time as condemning Move-On.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-05-07 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Congress added an amendment to the Military Commissions Act which banned torture
Bush responde with a signing statement saying, "The executive branch shall construe (the law) in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President . . . as Commander in Chief".

In other words, "Fuck you, Congress".

I don't see the point in them passing another law. Bush has set himself up as dictator, and there's only one remedy for that -- impeachment and conviction in the Senate with removal from office.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. I think that Congress needs to be more specific.
Obviously, the amendment to the Military Commissions Act was not clear enough for Bush or Mukasey.

I agree on impeachment and conviction. However, the conviction needs to take place after the 2008 election so that we can make sure we get a promise from the next president that the current office holders and their co-conspirators will be brought to justice in and after 2009. I do not want to see Bush go the way of Nixon. Bush and his co-conspirators need to be brought to justice and tried fairly in a court of law for torture and their many other crimes. Impeachment and removal are not sufficient to educate the American people about what has happened and why. I don't particularly care whether these guys actually go to prison or are punished. What I want is to have all the information and testimony on the record for the American people to see. The crimes of these people are horrendous, and they are motivated by greed and hunger for power. They have used the wonderful kindness and religious, trusting nature of us good American people for purposes that we the American people oppose in our hearts. I do not want to see an impeachment and Senate trial that ends in Bush, et al. being replaced by someone who will pardon them. We need, for once and for all, to learn the truth about the corruption in our government, about how our government has been virtually kidnapped by special interests and held for ransom.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Thank you so much
for saying this.

The crimes of these people are horrendous, and they are motivated by greed and hunger for power. They have used the wonderful kindness and religious, trusting nature of us good American people for purposes that we the American people oppose in our hearts.

And thank you, Time for change, for another excellent piece.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. No matter how specific they are, Bush will claim that he doesn't have to follow their law
The Military Commissions Act "expressly outlaws torture and cruel or inhuman treatment" according to The Center for Victims of Torture:

I agree that they should stand trial for their crimes. However, it's even more important that they be removed from office, because they are a grave threat to our country and our world. We won't be able to do that after January 2008, assuming that they go quietly after the election. Gerald Ford's pardon of Nixon was very unpopular and contributed to his defeat in 1976. I think that whoever replaced Bush and Cheney would be very hesitant to offer them a blanket pardon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
6. excellent!
definitely a post to bookmark. thank you so much for putting this together.

I cannot imagine what will happen to this country if we do not hold Cheney and crew responsible for this torture. Or, I can imagine, but it's not pleasant. Just look at the results of pardons for Iran-Contra.

35,000 disappeared! What a disgusting and shameful moment in history.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. This country better change direction soon and start holding these thugs accountable for their many

You're right, the pardons for Iran-Contra helped set the stage for this. And so did the failure to include lying to Congress and the American public about the invasion of Cambodia as one of the articles of impeachment against Nixon.

The 35,000 figure for the number of disappeard is an outlier estimate, but it was made by Powell's Chief of Staff. Anyhow, if it's 14,000 instead that's still plenty outrageous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
7. "How widespread is the Bush prison system?"
After WWII, We the People were horrified to learn about the widespread system of concentration camps in Europe, where torture and death by the most insidious means were commonplace. We heard, after The War, about the low moral character of the citizens of Germany, and marveled that they "let it happen."

And now, there has been a distessing turning, and we Americans are standing before the bar of justice, metaphorically speaking, and the question is being asked by the world: "How can they let this happen?"

How can we? To our everlasting shame, how can we?

Bush and Cheney should be impeached and removed from office, and then they should be turned over to appropriate authorities for criminal trials. And every little posturing underling they've appointed to public office should likewise be held accountable for their crimes. They have not "made mistakes," they are not working in a difficult-to-understand grey area -- they are complicit in the greatest crime in this nation's history, against its own people. They are a cancer that needs to be cut away from the body politic.

Torture is the first refuge of criminals. Not only is this administration involved in criminality, but every duly-elected Democrat who condones this despicable practice through silence and refusal to stand up to it is guilty, as well. There will be a reckoning.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. To me, that is probably THE most important issue surrounding this administration
It's a terrible shame that we don't have more Keith Olbermanns to talk about this kind of thing. That our national news media doesn't think that this is an important enough issue to make into a major national scandal speaks volumes about their lack of qualifications to be the main source of news for the American people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
8. Is it time for direct demand
Is it time to call Americans with a conscience to go to D.C. - not for a single march, but to stay there, taking turns, with the demand that Congress act upon the will of the people? That they uphold their constitutional duty?

I no longer have faith that the system works to stop even the worst actions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. The system will work only if the American people demand that it will work
As long as the American people believe that our country has the God given right to invade other countries, ignore human rights and other aspects of international law, and in general act as an imperial power, we will continue our march to tyranny and WW III just as Germany did in the 1930s. I see too little difference between our situation now and theirs then.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
9. The only way to save America is to try the entire Bushler administration for war crimes,
and put them in prison for a thousand years.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. I settle for being in prison for the rest of their worthless lives
But seriously, I would also settle for impeachment and removal from office. It would be great to send them to prison for war crimes too, but I've accepted that that's not going to happen. Our country isn't ready for it yet, I don't believe. But if it does, then great.

But if we don't at least remove the bastards from office I believe that our country will be in grave danger for the terrible precedent it would set.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
11. K & R. Thanks for all the excellent work. Impeach and Indict! n/t
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 02:41 AM by L. Coyote
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you! And you're right...the only way to stop it is to stop them
Remove them...but then indict them for war crimes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. I do believe it's the only way
And it's the only way to stop another war too.

I hope Congress figures it out before too long.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
14. Ronald Reagan on Torture
I never thought that a U.S. president would incite me to compare Ronald Reagan in a favorable light. But here's Ronald Reagan's statement when he signed the international "Convention against Torture"

The United States participated actively and effectively in the neotiation of the Convention... It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
17. I don't know who you are BUT you are incredible!!! Intelligent people would wrap themselves,...
,...around your impressively succinct case for impeachment.

I am in awe!!!

Thank you for the effort I know was required to gather and assimilate then write this exceptional piece!!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Thank you so much
It was an effort, but it was simultaneous very interesting work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
19. Failure To Impeach Is Complicity With Torture -- That's The Legacy
Sorry DC Dems, but like it or not that's the current "legacy optics."

You are currently approving "Judge Torture" to comply with the wishes of the "Torture Regime."

I recognize you all have your little rationalizations, and strategeries, and fears of electoral backlash as "reasons" for not acting to stop the atrocities under your watch. But those silly things get sillier and sillier in hindsight, and never make it to the broadstrokes of history. (And FWIW, the failure to act is also arguably war crime in itself.)

Even the Iraq quagmire that you've been trained to obsess over, and the "age of terrorism" will wash away in time. Future generations can forgive us our paranoia, our "bad" intelligence, our "fogs of war."

But torture never washes. If you allow it to stain you, it stains permanently and totally.

Failure to impeach is complicity -- approval -- exoneration for the regime.

We allow it at our peril.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
21. Everyone else in the world knows we are doing these illegal
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 01:35 PM by alyce douglas
acts it is just a matter of time and already other countries are after their a$$es such as France going after Rumsfeld, sooner or later other nations are not going to take these illegal criminals in our regime lightly.

to the person who posted this have you considered sending this to your Senators or Reps, very indepth and concise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Thank you, I called and wrote my Rep today to ask him to support impeachment of both Bush and Cheney
And I also asked for a meeting with him.

When he responds to my e-mail with a form letter, I'll send back a copy of this article.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
25. I nominate you for Attorney General
I don't know anything about you but I trust your understanding of the law and the Spirit of America a lot more than Mukasey or anyone that would vote for him. I have lost hope however. So much has been known since 2002 and yet we still torture prisoners in secret prisons who have no due process. I wish I didn't even learn about the Constitution to avoid the grief I feel with what has happened.

Orwellian. "We do not Torture." Absurd and so sad that we don't have a Congress that stands up. For so long we hoped that if only the Dems would win things would change.. but he we are still. :cry:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I accept your nomination
I don't have any legal training, but I'm sure I could do a better job than anyone Bush would nominate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
29. There has never been a better time to impeach!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Jan 31st 2023, 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC