Is It Not Surreal That America Is Even Having This "Debate" On Torture?

[Syrinx]

In America?

Can you comprehend that? Can you wrap your mind around it?

"Torture" is the antithesis of everything I was ever taught that America stood for.

It seems utterly alien to me.

The parameters of "reasonable" debate in this country have become so skewed, that we are actually presented with the meta-network-approved point-of-contention "is torture okay?"

"Is Torture OK?"

In The United States Of America?

Is it okay if we act like we are drowning you?

Is it okay if we pull out your fingernails?

Is it okay if we pull out your tongue?

It's like George Orwell, Ray Bradbury and Rod Serling collaborated on a TV pilot, considered it brilliant in its fright, but ultimately abandoned it because it was too far-fetched. The people would never be conned or entertained by such tomfoolery!

"Better plots," they would have yelled!

Yet we have been reduced to this.

"Is torture okay?"

In a bit more than six-and-a-half years, this is what we have been reduced to.

We have gone from flawed protector of human rights around the world to a burgeoning police state at home.

I remember my civics textbooks from junior high back in the early eighties. I don't think our "leaders" today would even understand those books. Those books would seem so foreign, and so cumbersome by today's politicians.

I remember being taught about such things as the Bill Of Rights. I remember being taught about the principles that made America great.

I'm thinking, now, about going to my old junior high school, and just asking if they have copies of the old civics books from which we were taught.

I like antiques. And I adore great examples.

I won't be shocked if none are available for review.

[Jacobin]

1. I'm old and I can tell you this administration is like nothing before

Nothing.

Its craven

[BridgeTheGap]

2. Yes, Fascists are quite "surreal"

It's most disheartening that they impugn people's patriotism for NOT supporting torture.

[soothsayer]

3. yes, it's bizzaro world

[Tesha]

4. Yes, it's very plain evidence of how far we've fallen as a country. (NT)

[Beer Snob-50]

5. the part that blows my mind is when he said

that he has not been briefed on this yet. i am sorry but what is there to brief on?

[bdamomma]

18. and yet we have seen what waterboarding does to a person.

this is total BS.

[tekisui]

27. Waterboarding is among the nicer things done

during interrogations. There are reports of forced sodomy, rape, forcing a father and son into sexual acts, intentional breaking of limbs, beating into kidney failure and murder.

I had hoped the Senators would further the Torture questions into these acts, since Mukasey is unable recognize or understand waterboarding.

[tularetom]

6. At least we can still have a debate about it

Small consolation I realize.

And I don't know how much longer that'll last.

I could not agree with you more.

[mmonk]

7. Nauseating.

This crap needs to be turned around.

[ixion]

8. indeed. I don't even recognize this country anymore... it has become

a very foreign land. I simply cannot wrap my mind around how far we've fallen in such a short time, nor how people are apparently so willing to behave as Russia or China have in their past.

Really, the mind boggles.

[bdamomma]

19. horrifying what this regime has done to our country, all the more

reason to kick their asses out, in Europe their asses would have been long gone.

[Loge23]

9. They have their following.

It's not just the maniacs in power - it's a significant portion of our own fellow citizens also.
I have heard - more than once - comments from people that, not only condone this behavior, but actually endorse harsher treatment.
The problem is, the administration (and their media enablers) have succeeded in scaring enough people into believing that we are in fact at imminent risk of being overrun by "terrorists". Ideologically speaking, the "terrorists" have followed us back from Iraq (where, of course, they were never at in the first place). If you're in sales in this environment and cannot succeed, you're missing a golden opportunity - Americans will buy anything.
This is another example why many feel that the country is lost.
When American citizens abandon the very principles of what is means to be an American, the idea dies.

[bdamomma]

23. people have become so ignorant and arrogant, and so inhuman.

to accept this bullying crap and let's kick their ass attitude in reference to other countries it may come back flying in our faces. damn these people.

[depakid]

10. All I can say is that I'm glad my father didn't live to see this

it would have broken his heart to think that this is what became of what he and generation fought for in WW II.

[bdamomma]

24. mine too.

very sad indeed.

[spanone]

11. this is what 7 years of tyranical bu$h* rule gives us.

it's sad, pathetic, inhumane, on and on and on

[emanymton]

12. "Christians" Defending Torture. USA - Torture OK ...

.
Never believed it possible. shrub has accomplished the mission of the GOP.

Through shrub's effort he has hobbled the people's government. shrub has turned USA into a hateful 'have' versus 'have-not' society with a profound callousness toward misfortunes of others.

As one once said, "Fascism will arrive in USA, wrapped in the flag and carried on a cross." It will take honest people generations to undo the corruption, greed and grief visited onto the people of USA by shrub's government. And in the end shrub will get away with it. A very large dose of the blame will rest on fundamentalist believers who have lost sight of the teachings of JC.

"Who would Christ torture?"
.

[bunkerbuster1]

22. The Christians who hate the Christ...

I'll never get that.

[rucky]

29. Maybe they thought "Passion of the Christ" was a training film?

:shrug:

[mwb970]

13. bush and cheney have done this to us.

I will hate them both forever.

[bdamomma]

25. they need to pay for their crimes, all their BS will catch up on them.

[mwb970]

31. I hope so.

What worries me is that we already know about their crimes and BS, yet nothing is being done, or even really talked about. What will change this?

[wolfgirl]

14. I was just

saying that to my hubby last nite. It feels like a very bad dream that just goes on and on.
I keep hoping that someone will stand up and remind us that if we (America) okay torture then we are
giving the okay for our troops to be treated in the same manner when they are 'detained'.

Can you imagine the outcry that would occur if the Abu Graihb (sp?) photos were of Americans being treated
in this manner? Then again, I fear there are some that wouldn't care even then....

My Country is no longer recognizable.....

[bdamomma]

15. our standards have hit an all time low with this POS in office

torture??? this concept is against being American. What if torture is used on our troops??? all hell would break loose.

[ccpup]

16. what's truly frightening

is that, because of this discussion, we're setting a precedent to have some kind of torture allowable in our Country from now on. At some point -- after we're all inoculated to the idea of it and it's become standard conversation and debate --, someone somewhere will decide Okay, we can do this, but we can't do that or that or ... that. And we Americans will breathe a sigh of relief and go Well, at least we're not doing those other things which are really bad.

I'm being serious here! When a quarter of the Country is shrugging their shoulders and tacitly urging harsher measures, what else could happen? Finding middle ground is the best hope -- with those Neanderthals in the repug party still hungry for their pound or two of flesh -- and that middle ground would have been inconceivable only 8 or 9 years ago!

We've turned a corner and I trust History will point at this time -- with * and Cheney and the duplicitous complacency of the media and our spineless Dems as well as a political DOJ and USSC -- as the time when America was lost and it became something it was never intended to be.

[Synnical]

17. Indeed. n/t

[The2ndWheel]

20. Torture, bombing, economic sanctions that never hurt the leaders in power

They're all the same.

[bunkerbuster1]

21. Almost precisely the same sentence I uttered at home last night.

We were watching a little bit of Ted Kennedy's speech on the Mucus-y nomination, and I mentioned to Mrs. Bunkerbuster that I hadn't really talked much about this whole "Can I haz waterbording?" deal because I was so revolted that the debate was even a debate in the first place, and that it tended to make me get violently angry at what had become of my country.

You raise a great question, one that all patriotic Americans should be asking themselves and their neighbors and co-workers today. Yes, it is surreal. It's FUBAR. It's horrifying.

[NoFederales]

26. Surreal, just as violence, and stupidity, held up for adulation in our

entertainment fixated populace. Dumbed-down to the core, what used to be ass-nine be heralded as brill-unt.

Thinkin' is hard werk, haaard werk, it real bad haaaaard.

NoFederales

[shadowknows69]

28. As I understand it

we are now the USSR that Raygun scared the shit out of us about in the 80's. This is not America.

[wtmusic]

30. Whether we can survive this round of empire

will likely determine whether the human race can endure.

[madokie]

32. I say they'll all pay for this in the end

I know I sound like a broken record but I can't believe the usa will allow this to go on much longer. people for the most part are just now starting to pay attention to what the bush* crew are doing and the ones who are, who I've talked to aren't liking what they're seeing either. theres a good day coming

[babylonsister]

33. I agree; we've sunk so low, so fast. The abnormal is up for debate now. nt

[ProfessorGAC]

34. Everytime I Hear Someone Say. . .

. . ."if we can prevent another 9/11 . . ." blah, blah blah, i think immediately, "What a cowardly lot we've become."

So afraid, we are, of a unspecified threat that might happen at some indeterminate future, that we are willing to do the wrong thing just for a little safety.

That's the domain of cowardice.
The Professor

[Lisa]

46. indeed. During the Revolutionary War, thousands of people died ...

... trying to establish a country that did not torture. Some historians estimate that US military casualties (including wounded, and some who were indeed captured and tortured by the British) could have been high as 50,000. And the total population of what would later become the USA was MUCH smaller than it is now. This is a core principle, not the quaint fancy which people like Alberto Gonzales, and others who support this administration, seem to think.

http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/casualties_of_war.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War#Casualties

[eShirl]

35. it's surreal that 99% of congress is not outraged

not to mention 99% of the electorate, 99% of the press

[ClayZ]

36. They took the USA and turned her into

a criminal, drugged her, force fed her propaganda, brainwashed her and sent her to hell. She no longer looks, talks, acts or walks like she did 7 years ago. Her standing in the world is one of scorn. She has become a murderer, a torturer, and a thief. She is a liar. She is a cheat.

Those of us who knew her before, can not believe it happened.

We are powerless. We the people. Insanity prevails.

She was once a teacher and a leader.

Is an intervention called for?

Perhaps, another tea party starting in Boston and spreading!

If we all stopped and did nothing, if the trucks stopped, if the stores were empty.....

Hundreds of thousands of us have tried to wake her up and make her see the error of her ways.

We made signs, we marched, we wrote letters, we signed petitions.

I feel homeless, in my house.

It is almost as though I can no longer watch her, and that is likely their plan.

What will we tell the grandchildren?

[flyarm]

37. what debate? has there been debate?? pissy pants says he does not torture..

the attorney general nominee won't tell us if water boarding is torture..congress passes laws saying we don't torture and yet we all know damn well we are torturing..so where has the debate been?/ what freaking debate..i don't remember anyone asking me if i wanted my nation to torture..do you??????????

we are no longer a nation predicated on rule of law..

pissy pants and congress has made sure of that!

on both sides of the isle..

remember outstanding subpoenas?????

pfffffftt..law?? who needs law...not pissy pants and surely not anyone who works for pissy pants and collects our tax dollars as their salary's..and certainly not congress that lets whoever they want to, to flaunt the law and give them the middle finger, as well as us..

it's all off the table..

and meanwhile our own have given us the middle finger...

i don't remember a debate on torture...i just don't remember that debate..i begged for it to stop..but nope ..i don't remember any damn debate!


fly

[spanone]

38. the Mukasey vote will tell me where Democrats stand on the issue of torture...plain & simple

[brazos121200]

39. Naomi Wolf wrote a good article in Guardian magazine

about the 10 steps to Fascism used by all dictators, it seems Bush has already enacted all 10 steps. <http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html>

[Rhiannon12866]

40. Exquisitely stated my friend. K&R. I absolutely agree...

Who could ever imagined, from what we have been taught for all of our lives, that it would come to this? During the "first" Gulf War, they surrendered to the Americans by the hundreds, knowing that they would be treated humanely. And think how much that was learned from those prisoners, who were treated well and were grateful? They hated Saddam, so we were the "good guys," back then. But under Saddam, the Iraqi people at least had electricity and clean water... That's how they judge their lives...:shrug:;(

But now, we've a '180, and therefore so have they. People throughout the world hate us, including our former European allies, because of our treatment of them when they felt that the Americans were dead wrong in invading a third-world country, with no provocation. And there is no end in sight; people continue to die...;(

Those in Iraq who would normally just go about their business, trying their best to live normally with their families, are turning against this unending occupation, have since 2003, and those who would never have become involved before are joining the "insurgency" or financing training camps dedicated to defeating the Americans. I saw a Scott Pelley report about this on "60 Minutes," about how an average middle-aged Iraqi, who was totally uninvolved before, sold up his business to finance another training camp. How can we "win" against this?:shrug:

We really blew this, big time, and it will take generations for us to recover, the mess that we have made in the Middle East, the bleeding economy and national debt, our nearly-irreparable relations with our traditional allies and the crumbing infructure, unemployment, and fear in this country.x(

Whjo would want to inherit this mess? I have no idea why we have such a surfeit of candidates...:shrug:

I would love to read the history books a hundred years from now. Will we have forgotten Martin Luther King, JFK and RFK? We will definitely have forgotten Dennis Kucinich, John Conyers and Henry Waxman, and this makes we sad.;(

I always hope for a miracle, that even the RW will have to wake up and rise up, saying "enough!" But I have expected this for so long that my hope is waning. I never thought that I would be shocked by much of anything, but the news continues to shock me, everyday. I share your thoughts my friend. Great post!:thumbsup::applause::patriot:

Rhiannon:hi:

[Syrinx]

49. thanks!

My mood always brightens a bit when I see you around.

You know, I kind of wish I was more like some of my friends. They just go about their business, and don't really seem to be aware of what is so very quickly becoming of this nation, and by extension, the world.

But as much as I might try not to, I can't help but to notice, and it makes me very sad.

Sorry to sound like "Debbie Downer." ;)

It's nice to hear from you! Hopefully, better days are just around the corner!

:hi:

[Daphne08]

41. It's unbelievable to me that the subject is even up for discussion.

I'm older and this country is becoming unrecognizable to me.

[Lisa]

47. yes. The thought that torture would be considered as a possibility

-- or as Bush refers to it, a "technique" -- is something that OUGHT to be all over the front pages and at the top of every newscast.

[slowry]

42. I'm amazed people aren't in the streets, torching stuff daily n/t

[deacon]

43. Great point. If we don't torture why are we having this debate. Disgraceful.

[Beelzebud]

44. And with no opposition party in place, it's pointless to even have the debate.

The owners decide what they want, and they get it.

[DemGa]

45. Indeed I agree

I was just watching PBS news and the analysis at the end of the program; the Republic was defending torture, of course. So utterly strange.

[blues90]

48. I'm old and it's unreal that we are doing this .

I would have never imagined we would be a war monger country attacking other countries or torturers . This is 2007 for crips sake and we have slid backward in time .