"Why can we have a Miss Black America pageant and not a Miss White America pageant?"

[Bluebear]

Someone misguidedly used this old chestnut here last night to "prove" something about racism... You may be interested in the infamous "Rule 7" of the Miss America contest. Here is the contract for a local pageant in 1948. As you peruse it, you will see why it was necessary to have a Miss Black America. Any more questions? :)

=====

CONTRACT
Between Official Franchise Holder And Miss America Pageant
For Conducting Local Contests To Name A Candidate To Be
Entered In The National Finals For the Selection Of

Miss America, 1948
Atlantic City, N.J., September 6th to 13th

(Name of Franchise Holder) of (Street Address) (City and State) hereby accept the exclusive rights to sponsor and conduct the territorial contests within the territory listed as follows: (Name of Territory)

We hereby agree to sponsor, promote and finance fair and unbiased contests within the territory assigned to us, according to the rules and regulations set forth in this contract.

We agree that we will not assume any obligations locally for or on behalf of the Miss America Pageant, and we thoroughly understand that the Miss America Pageant is in no way obligated to pay for any debts or fulfill any promises made by us in conducting our local preliminary contests.

We agree to pay first class transportation to Atlantic City and return of winning candidate from our territory and to see that she arrives in Atlantic City not later than 6 P.M. on Monday, September 6th, 1948.

We agree to provide winning candidate with $10.00 in cash for incidentals in Atlantic City, and to also provide her with sufficient money for meals while enroute.

We agree to furnish winning candidate from our territory with a maximum of four evening gowns and a minimum of three evening gowns to wear in the national contest.

We agree to mention the $25,000 Scholarship awards which will be given sixteen 1948 Miss America contestants at the National Finals, in all promotional material used in conducting our preliminary and final contests and to acknowledge the donors of this Scholarship Foundation. We understand that these companies are:

(Company Name)
(Company Name)

We also agree to furnish the Miss America Pageant with copy of each piece of said advertising and promotional material used.

We agree that in judging preliminary and final contests to select our candidate for the National Finals, we shall follow the national contest method of judging, copy of which we have received and acknowledge herewith.

We agree that if for any reason contestant winning our official final contest is disqualified or released from appearing in the Miss America Finals at Atlantic City, then the next choice of the judges shall be considered the winner of our contest.

We agree to abide by the following rules and regulations for selecting contestants:

1. Contestant must be resident of city, state, or territory in which local contest is held for six months prior to contest. This rule is only waived for contestants whose residence is out of the city or state, but who is a college or university student in city or state where contests is held and at time contest is held. She may not compete in more than one Official Preliminary Contest each year.

2. Contestant must be single and never have been married, divorced, or had marriage annulled.

3. Contestant must be high school graduate or a senior attending high school at time of contest.

4. Contestant's age on September 1, 1948 shall be not less than eighteen, and more than twenty-eight years.

5. Contestant must be of good character and possess poise, personality, intelligence, charm, and beauty of face and figure.

6. Contestant must possess and display in a three minute routine TALENT. This talent may be singing, dancing, playing a musical instrument, dramatic reading, or she may give a three minute talk...

7. Contestant must be in good health and of the white race.

8. Contestant may be either amateur or professional.

The Miss America Pageant agrees to accept our candidate in their National Finals in Atlantic City, September 6th of 1948, and to furnish hotel accommodations and meals for her during the week...


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/missamerica/filmmore/ps.html

[Atman]

1. And how come Miss UNIVERSE always comes from planet Earth?

Things that make you go hmmmm...

.

[Bluebear]

3. THAT I cannot help you with.

:)

[Love Bug]

18. Diebold tallies the votes?

[mondo joe]

31. Because the judges are from Earth and alien women do not conform to earth-standards

of beauty, hu-man.

Well, a few do. Here's Miss Ventura, 1966 receiving her title and customary 200 Quatloos.

[Whisp]

92. DennyCrane!

[Forkboy]

153. Because Captain (sleep with anything) Kirk isn't a judge.

:)

[Sequoia]

171. Ha, ha

Years and years ago that show "Lost in Space" had a Miss Universe contest where all the gals from other planets came to compete. It seems the human teen girl didn't win because her skink was pink. Or maybe she won because of it, I don't remember but some of the other gals thought humans were ugly.

[redqueen]

2. Well... you answered this:

"why it was necessary"

Can you answer this:

"why it is necessary, still"

[whoneedstickets]

6. It isnt...

But identity is power, identity frames interests, identity dictates rights and benefits in the new politics of America. Get your identity soon before all the good ones are gone.

[Burma Jones]

7. I guess it is necessary because it was necessary

It's hard to kill off a money making venture and I am sure there are those that make a living off of a Miss Black America Pageant as well. Anyway, there are so many Miss Something or Other pageants out there why not a Miss Black America pageant?

[redqueen]

15. That's what I think, yup.

$$$$$$$$

[Bluebear]

8. Because this is the idea of a black Miss America >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And she is gorgeous, alright, but she:


probably would have no chance.

[kwassa]

44. According to who?

Oprah was Miss Black Tennessee and competed in the Miss Black America tournament



here is former Miss Black America



other contestants.

[mondo joe]

71. I thought Bluebear wrote "a black Miss America", not "a Miss Black America".

Someone is having a little dyslexia this morning - or is looking for something that's not there.

[kwassa]

84. Look in the mirror.

"Why can we have a Miss Black America pageant and not a Miss White America pageant?"

OP title

[mondo joe]

98. Not what the post you responded to said. Try to keep these things straight.

It helps communication.

[Bluebear]

74. Well, I see now why the OP is so "unclear" to you, you are missing it completely.

The Miss ... oh never mind... someone, help!

[Ian David]

9. A white woman would look silly doing commercial endorsements for black women's hair care products.nt

[redqueen]

16. Yup...

all goes back to $$.

[Az]

11. Has racism ended and oppression no longer exists?

If not then any oppressed minority has reason to celebrate their selves as a means of pressing back the emotional harm of such oppression.

[redqueen]

17. Celebrate their selves?

Uh... yeah... I guess so.

:shrug:

[Az]

29. I sense confusion

Could be the :shrug: Care to elaborate? Do you disagree with this notion? Do you think it silly to celebrate one's people when another people are dismissive of you? Just curious as to your take on this.

[redqueen]

33. I think beauty pageants are stupid.

I don't see that they "celebrate" anything but cashing in on the tawdry, vacuous tradition of image-worship... but obviously many disagree. :)

[Bluebear]

37. Yes, that's obviously the point of the whole thread.

:eyes:

[redqueen]

43. Huh?

Sorry, I just dont' see that any miss or ms or mrs. anyhing is celebrating anything but vacuousness, aimed directly at girls and women.

If you disagree that's fine... but why the eye-rolling?

[Az]

49. I suspect what he is getting at

Is that the point of the thread is about oppressed minorities raising themselves up through a variety of means. Whether beauty pageants are a proper method of doing so is tangential to the actual point.

[redqueen]

53. Yeah I guess...

I like how you said that without the dripping contempt. :)

[Bluebear]

59. Oh dear, I'm so sorry.

You took "contempt" out of a little icon? I am terribly sorry, you rad way too much into that.

[redqueen]

61. Whatever it was...

it rubbed me the wrong way, that's all... no need for your sorries. :)

[Bluebear]

63. Here, you are doing a better job than I am, help! >>>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2173843&mesg_id=2174048

[Bluebear]

52. Because the validity of pageants is quite another topic.

You started off by challenging why we "had" Miss Black America, why do we have it now? Ending the topic by just saying "oh well, I don't like pageants anyhow" kind of goes off track.

[redqueen]

56. I didn't challenge it, I was curious to hear your thoughts.

And I didn't even *try* to "end" it there either... I was simply responding to someone else's reply to something I said.

Fucksake...

[Bluebear]

60. OK don't go off on a tear here, see above.

I didn't mean to show you "dripping contempt" with a little icon. Sorry.

[Az]

82. Ok lets slow this down a bit

We seem to agree that beauty pageants are perhaps not the best thing in the world. I am not sure where we stand relative to whether groups that experience oppression are justified in finding ways to raise themselves up. My take on this conversation is that this is the focus rather than the validity of beauty pageants. Are we in agreement on this issue or are we still at odds on it?

[redqueen]

Is this subject even worth this much discussion?

:rofl:

Yeah, I see that that's the point of the topic... I responded to your response the way I did cause it just seemed like such a hilarious way to describe a beauty pageant... as a way to celebrate oneself.

[Az]

107. Well how one celebrates oneself

Is really up to the individual or group as the case may be. I find people dancing around and smacking each other to be the height of hilarity. But the English think it is the bees knees. (see Morris Dancing).

[redqueen]

113. Do they do that only if there's some kind of compensation involved?

I'm sure unaware of any pageants for which there is no prize at the end.

[Az]

142. Many pageants only have honorary rewards

Ribbons and trophies. The real reward is winning. Being crowned. Being held in esteem above others.

[redqueen]

145. Bleargh. (nt)

[Az]

151. I understand

:D :hug:

[Az]

45. Ah... well that is an entirely different issue

But the fact is some people take strength and pride from such "celebrations". I have to agree with the rejection of beauty pageants in general. But then thats my (and yours apparently) taste.

[Az]

97. Yes, a lot do disagree

But you have me in agreement on that point if it means anything. I have been half tempted to throw the money issue into this debate but it would detract from the central point. But the truth is that one of the reasons there is a Miss Black America Beauty Pageant is because there is money to be made. But don't tell anyone else in this debate as it will throw a monkey wrench into the entire argument.

[redqueen]

104. Well that's the only answer there is, sadly.

All this celebration and pulling themselves up IMO is just nonsense.

Why do people enter pageants? PRIZE MONEY! Aduh! :D

[Az]

111. Hardly

If you have ever been exposed to the culture of beauty pageants its hardly about the money. It is borderline fanatical... strike that... it is fanatical devotion to ego.

[redqueen]

114. They're not in it to enter...

they all want to win... and they don't want to win to get a picture in the news... they want some kidn of prize.

[Az]

116. The majority do not win

Yet they continue to enter contests. The money is part of it. But the culture of the beauty pageant is dominated by ego and winning for the win. Even those who do not win feed their ego by being amongst those considered beautiful by some measure. Of course the problem is that trying to feed this sort of egotism is a never ending path. There are less difficult ways to make money.

[redqueen]

117. True... I guess the ego is part of it too...

not so celebratory or pulling-yourself-uppatory, though, is it?

Well, wait a minute... in this culture... perhaps it is. :crazy:

[Az]

141. No one said it had to make sense to us

People value the things they value. As society and understanding shift so to do the things they value. But not everyone in the society learns things at the same pace so values and views are not a consistent thing across the society. So what you and I see as a disparaging tawdry display of objectifying women others (including women) see as something worthy of praise.

[redqueen]

144. Well of course including women...

they're mostly the ones feeding it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

70. Celebrating one's race is not the same as celebrating one's culture.

I think it is a perfectly reasonable decision to try and preserve the culture of ones ancestors, and to indulge in it more than other cultures because one is descended from it.

I don't think it's reasonable to celebrate one's race, or to make cultural events racially-discriminatory.

If there were a long-standing tradition among black Americans of holding beauty pageants, that might be a reason to go on holding beauty pageants. It would not be a reason to hold black-only beauty pageants.

[Az]

91. When one's race is the cause of oppession

it becomes something worth rallying around. If everyone were enlightened your argument would be valid. But the truth is that there are still a great number of people who view race as a valid issue to dismiss people by.

[NorthernSpy]

119. you haven't given this stuff much thought, have you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2173843&mesg_id=2174199

[whoneedstickets]

26. Who counts as oppressed?

Really, I imagine lots of identity subgroups probably 'feel' oppressed how do we determine who is deserving?

[Bluebear]

28. Deserving of what? What subgroup is being prohibited from having a pageant?

[whoneedstickets]

48. The pageant issue is just a subset..

..of a whole larger set of issues regarding which sub-population have the power to claim and assert difference and to mobilize that identity and difference as a strategy for political and social influence.

To some degree this depends on popular opposition derived from the social construction of that identity (and the degree to which 'historical oppression' has been grafted onto the identity label). Groups that can't claim this are less empowered to assert a special status but are not entirely powerless. I imagine you might have a Miss Evangelical pageant? Perhaps a Miss Union pageant? I doubt a Miss Anglo-Saxon pageant.

[redqueen]

57. Miss Redneck Pageant!

:bounce:

[Az]

41. Deserving?

There is more to that question than it would seem. Any group can of course identify themselves as oppressed and decide to try to promote themselves within the larger society. But the question is which groups are in fact trying to raise themselves up from oppression and which are merely trying to reassert their dominance. Which are striving for equality and which are striving to maintain their oppressive roll?

I don't think there is any one adjudicator of such matters. These things must be played out within the society itself. How a group presents itself carries a lot of the weight. If Fred Phelps held a Miss Straight America pageant we can be pretty sure that its not meant to raise an oppressed minority but rather to assert dominance of continued oppression. He certainly would have the right to hold such a pageant. But we would have the right to see it as bigoted and oppressive.

[Romulox]

64. I find this sort of identity politics abhorrent; I am an individual, and no "group" speaks for me

The fact is, "whitness" is an artificially constructed and outwardly imposed identity. You call me "white" and claim any effort my family makes to better itself is "trying to reassert dominance."

But when my family arrived in the USA as indentured servants, they were not considered white, and their children faced "Irish need not apply" signs all over the south. My father did not graduate high school, and made a living as a landscaper (you know, a job that Americans won't do! :eyes: )

Now, in 2007, it is acceptable to discriminate against me and my children because someone with similar looking skin tones is successful? How is that just? How is that not racism?

[Az]

77. I don't recall when the entire human race became enlightened

Yes, there is a lot of stupidity inherent in racism and the reactions to it. But they are in fact part of our society. And groups that society identifies and classifies via various emotional labels are going to gather themselves together and find ways to counter this societal tendency.

[Romulox]

95. Don't assume today's bigotries won't be looked upon by future generations with the same horror

as those in the past then.

[Az]

100. Could you restate that?

Not sure what you are saying. I would rather you restate it than me slaughtering it by guessing at what I think you are saying.

[Justyce]

12. Exactly. 1948.... nt

[Bluebear]

14. "Exactly. 1948" what?

All is well and good and equal now?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

120. because racism still exist?

[redqueen]

135. I think it's more about money, myself...

beauty pageants don't really seem to address racism, except during the question and answer portion of the contest. :P

[La Lioness Priyanka]

147. thats a different issue. beauty pageants as a whole maybe useless which is another argument for

another issue.

however the need for minorities to have beauty pageants that cater to their own race/religion/sexual orientation is another issue.

[redqueen]

157. Ow at "need"...

but yeah... anyone who wants a new one... I have no problem with it!

[Le Taz Hot]

4. 1948????

And no, I'm not EVEN going to get into any kind dialog about this. I know a land mine when I see one.

[Bluebear]

10. Yes, 1948. Not that long ago, is it?

If I had said 1872, you may have a point :)

[KittyWampus]

5. How about a Miss Transgendered America?

[Recursion]

13. That question drives me insane

You can have a Miss White America contest if you so choose. Where on earth do people get the idea that you can't?

You probably won't get many sponsors, and you'll probably be mocked, ridiculed, and protested against, but the freedoms of speech and association that guarantee you the right to hold a Miss White America contest also grant potential sponsors the right to run away screaming and protesters the right to point out what a jackass you are.

Conservatives talk big about responsibility, but the "anti-PC" backlash suggests to me they don't want to be responsible for their speech: you can say pretty much anything you want, but you can't keep people from calling you a jerk for it. What I think the person who asked that question meant is, "why would I be called an asshole for organizing a Miss White America while the organizers of Miss Black America are not called assholes?"

The dishonesty of that question is, the organizers of Miss Black America were and are spoken against, generally by people who ask that kind of question.

[Bluebear]

19. Look upthread, the question really irritates some people at a basic level

You are exactly right, you certainly can have a Miss White America, have at it ;)

[redqueen]

21. Again - $$.

The PR people know it would take a nosedive...

If the whiners want to invest the money... GO FOR IT! :rofl:

[kwassa]

20. hmmmm ..... no rules about heterosexuality.

[Bluebear]

22. "Contestant must be of good character"

You don't think they would kick out a lesbian with that rule?

So, here am I, a gay white male, taking up the torch of racism in America by starting this thread, and all you can do by way of thanks is insert something about sexuality to "prove" that being gay is not like being black? Thanks a bunch.

[kwassa]

50. Is that what you are doing?

The point of your OP is completely unclear to me.

[Bluebear]

54. "The point of your OP is completely unclear to me." - I can't help you there, sorry.

[mondo joe]

66. Funny, because I thought it was pretty clear. Looked to me like an explanation of why

there has been, and is, a beauty pageant expressly for black women.

I don't know how far one would have to have their own head up their ass to not understand.

[Bluebear]

68. Thank you, I don't see the big mystery here. nt

[mondo joe]

75. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything you face looks like a nail.

[kwassa]

76. The point that is unclear is why you write about the 1948 Miss America contest now

Why do you do that?

What is the point?

[mondo joe]

81. Why does Bluebear need a reason?

How about "he felt like it"?

[kwassa]

90. Why are you sticking your nose into my conversation with him?

Miss America, 1990, Dr. Debbye Turner

[mondo joe]

99. If you don't understand or like how message boards function, that could be

very upsetting for you, I understand.

[kwassa]

115. Didn't answer my question, did you?

[mondo joe]

156. If you'd like more of an answer, try this: I'm adding to the public conversation

on a message board because I feel like it.

[Bluebear]

86. Did you read the first sentence of the OP?

Does that answer you as to what inspired the post? Are you being deliberately combative?

[kwassa]

93. Yes, and it is unclear

"Someone misguidedly used this old chestnut here last night to "prove" something about racism"

Who tried to prove what about racism?

[Bluebear]

96. I can't refer to it without calling out another member or breaking the rules.

Everybody else at least seems to get the gist of what this thread is about, I have no idea why you are trying to grind an axe.

[IndianaJones]

121. grind an axe. lol. nt.

[Az]

89. The 1948 rules are the reason that initiated the issue

The fact that racism continues is why the Miss Black America Pageant continues.

[mondo joe]

23. That explains the dozens of lesbian Miss America winners, huh?

[KittyWampus]

30. How would we know?

[mondo joe]

34. How would we know about the non-white women who "passed"?

[Recursion]

51. And back then, Irish and Jewish weren't "white"

Well, Irish was by 1948, but it hadn't been for long. Also, a majority of hispanics in America today are "white", though I don't think they would have counted by the pageant's rules.

[redqueen]

62. Irish was by 48?

Ain't it funny how even people will divide themselves from each other, by any means necessary?

*sigh*

[Romulox]

69. Umm, this isn't an example of "people dividing themselves". It's historical fact.

[redqueen]

73. Ummmmm, did I say it wasn't?

Cause... like... DUH!

And it's NOT the only case... in that case it was "white" people finding a reason to look down on other "white" people... but the shit goes on all the time... all over the world.

Geeeeeeeez... people in this forum!

[Romulox]

80. The point is, it isn't "people dividing themselves"

And Irish (also Jews, Greeks, Italians) were not considered white for most of this country's history.

By claiming it is "'white' people finding a reason to look down on other 'white' people" you are attempting to blur the distinction between the oppressor and the oppressed. The socially constructed identity of "whiteness" is the tool that allows you to do this; since the people who hung the "no Irish" signs and the Irish themselves are both constructed as "white", this is merely an example of "white people" discriminating against themselves, and therefore the victims are responsible for their own discrimination such that they not only deserve no special consideration, but instead deserve the same condemnation as bigots who placed the signs in the first instance.

In this way, an artificially constructed "whiteness" is used to excuse discrimination, and to place guilt by association on previously marginalized groups.

Geeeez indeed!

[redqueen]

94. Wow... you sure read a lot into that!

Yes, they weren't considered white... until they were... and now they are.

I'm not attempting to blame any victims here or claim that anyone deserves condemnation AT ALL... I don't know where the hell you got all that.

All I'm doing is pissing and moaning about how PEOPLE, okay... not "white" people, not "black" people... but ALL people... ALL of them... (well... all stupid ones) will find a way to look down on their fellow PEOPLE, for one reason or another... but they will fucking find one for one reason or another... even Irish! Catholics vs. Protestants? Ring a bell?

There, is that better?

[Romulox]

105. The conversation about race takes place in context.

And the "Catholic vs. Protestants" issue isn't/wasn't about "finding a way to look down on their fellow people..."

It was about genocide, occupation, and an attempt by England to displace the native population of Ireland with colonizers. Ever hear of the Scots-Irish?

Again, you are using "whiteness" to gloss over historical crimes...

[redqueen]

112. Jesus Mary and Joseph!

It is so about people DIVIDING themselves from each other... for whatever dumbass reason (but most often, $$$ is involved).

How about if I brought up Darfur, how black people are committing genocide against other black people... would I be using 'blackness' to "gloss over" crimes?

I really don't get why you're trying to twist everything I say.

FWIW, I don't know about "Scots-Irish", but I know about Bobby Sands, and I know about how much food was taken from Ireland during the famine to be exported to Britain. Do I have enough "cred" with you now that you'll stop assuming the worst and reading ridiculous crap into every fucking word I post?

[Romulox]

123. Yes. Reducing Darfur to "black people killing other blacks" is a gross oversimplification

that does nothing but deflect attention from the true source of the conflict.

Race theory was not invented to empower people, but rather to marginalize them. As a consequence, any time you are tempted to reduce a complex geo-political situation to "black people...committing genocide against other black people," ask yourself what insight is gained by this mode of analysis. Most often, as with Northern Ireland and Darfur, race theory can lead to a clearly erroneous conclusion.

The conflict in Darfur, e.g., has next to nothing to do with race. It has to do with oil money and genocide. Race theory adds nothing to the analysis, but rather blurs the distinction between the Janjaweed murderers and their animist victims--to this view, it is insulting and downright dangerous to analyze the situation in Darfur as "black people...committing genocide against other black people."

[redqueen]

126. Right... it's about money... oil = money.

However, this thread is about (as you pointed out) race.

So... I was going with the whole context thing, and looking at examples of people from the same "race" (such a meaningless, fucked-up term, since as you said "white" isn't even a race!... but that's the way the term is being used in this thread).

*sigh*

As I tried to explain before... it's people against people... all over the world.


I'm curious now... what "erroneous conclusion" can people come to by observing the "race" of the people in these conflicts?

[kwassa]

78. Bess Myerson, first Jewish Miss America, 1945

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bess_Myerson

Bess Myerson (born July 16, 1924, Bronx, New York) in 1945 became the first Jewish woman to win the Miss America pageant. She appeared in various television shows in the 1950s and 1960s. In the 1970s and 80s, she was involved in New York City politics.

While competing in beauty pageants, Myerson refused, despite entreaties, to employ a pseudonym that "sounded less Jewish". She faced prejudice even after winning the Miss America title, with many sponsors and events long associated with the pageant refusing to deal with her. She later campaigned for civil rights, in particular, working with the Anti-Defamation League.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. Actually, Bess Myerson, who is Jewish, won Miss America some time during

the 1940s, so yes, Irish and Jewish were considered "white" by 1948.

[LanternWaste]

163. As were Latinos and Asian...

As were Latinos and Asian considered white during the war, as they were not allowed to drink from the Colored Fountain.

[Iggo]

88. A majority of Hispanics in America are white?

If by that you mean that on census forms we are for some reason counted as "Caucasian," then yeah, I guess we're all white. I can't wait to tell my neighbors!

[Romulox]

124. Pssst. Race is a made up concept. There is no "scientific" proof of who is "white"...

You are "white" because the US government says you are. Same as I am (Irish). And my neighbor (Chaldean).

[redqueen]

127. Caucazoid, Mongoloid, Negroid.

Most people seem to confuse nationality with race.

Argh... the stupid... it hurts.

[Romulox]

132. I completely reject both "caucasian" and "Anglo"

I'm neither Iranian nor English.

I especially bristle at native English speaking hispanics calling me "Anglo". :wtf:

[redqueen]

134. Such twaddle...

those three 'races' were made up out of whole cloth based on that most scientific of sciences: facial features!

:rofl:

Amazing that the whole concept hasn't been blown out of the water... but wait... no, it really isn't... it serves a purpose, doesn't it? Keeping this meaningless BS around, all this time?

[IndianaJones]

139. what meaningless BS? nt.

[Romulox]

152. I agree with you there. The greatest tragedy is people who "only date in their race"

How can you look at a beautiful person of another skin tone and not be attracted? :wtf:

Thank god my "race" is the human race!

[Recursion]

161. Well, there are *some* scientific bases for broad racial categories...

At least in medicine, I know, there are some drugs that it's safer to give "caucasoids" than "negroids" because of general genetic differences (obviously you need to take each patient individually, but in a trauma/emergency situation it's a pretty sound rule of thumb). The 19th- and early 20th-century racial diagnostic criteria were hopelessly simplistic and naive (and racist, BTW), but DNA research is showing the differences that there are, and is leading to some more finely-honed therapies than were previously available.

But, the fact remains that a "black" Colombian and a "white" Peruvian (2 races, both hispanic) probably have more in common with each other culturally than the white Peruvian has in common with me, though the color-based "castes" in Latin America can be extremely strong in some places.

[redqueen]

166. Ah yes... good point...

but I wonder... do the medical-type differences fall neatly along those three lines? Perhaps there are more? Fewer?

I'm curious now...

[Recursion]

160. Yes, by the census's demographic criteria

Persons of hispanic ethnicity may be of any race; white, black, native american, asian (think the philippines). Hispanic is an ethnicity (or a collection of ethnicities) rather than a race.

[misanthrope]

169. If you could drink from the "Whites Only" fountain, you were white.**nm

**

[KittyWampus]

103. That's a good question. I asked it first though. In either case, how would we know?

[mondo joe]

155. As to lesbians, we can know this:

Beauty Pageants have long had "character" rules, they do some degree of checking on them, and I believe we can reasonably assume they would have frowned on lesbianism. (If you disagree on that last point, let me know and we can chat about it).

We also know Miss America has de-throned past winners on discovering that there was new information indicating that the winner had less than the character they desire in a winner.

So we can know that there either were no Lesbian winners, or if there were the Lesbian winners went onto live sham lives or went on to live in such a way that they had to hide who they were.

[IndianaJones]

24. more ignorant of minority issues...here or your local rotary club? nt.

[Bluebear]

25. Toss-up.

[terrya]

27. God...did they have separate drinking fountains in the auditorium?

I cringe when I see this kind of crap.

Horrible, shameful time in our country's history.

[NorthernSpy]

32. How come there's a Miss Polish-American?

Aren't they discriminating against everyone who isn't Polish-American?


http://www.misspolishamerican.com/index.html

[Bluebear]

35. Are you being perfectly serious?

[NorthernSpy]

87. I'm pointing out the insanity of this "having a Miss Black America is racist!" whining...

"Black" is comparable in one way to these European ethnic groups: having even a small percentage of the requisite ancestry is generally considered enough to make you a member of the group.


White, however, is a whole 'nother thing. White is partly about what you are -- a person whose ancestors came from Europe. But it's even more about what you're not: you can't have any discoverable African blood. Racist concerns are inherent to the definition of "white".


Thing is, Miss Black America does allow persons of European origin to compete. In fact, all but one of your ancestors could have been whites, and you could still be accepted as black. That's got to be the smallest blood quantum for group acceptance ever.


Would a Miss White America pageant be open to a person of African origin who also had a single European ancestor?


To any whites who feel left out of the Miss Black America pageant, remember: genealogy is your friend. Today, there are as many "whites" with one or more black ancestors who crossed the color line at some time in the past, as there are self-identified blacks. Don't just assume you're not black -- you very well could be.


Find out, and then get all your official documents changed. Then you can compete in all the black beauty pageants you want.

[Bluebear]

102. "Then you can compete in all the black beauty pageants you want."

:rofl: I love it, thank you!

[Recursion]

46. Most white ethnicities have their own pageants

And the winner goes to every Polish/Irish/Italian/whatever Heritage Festival in the country for the next year.

"White" is a fairly meaningless designation -- particularly given that it includes about 2/3rds of hispanics -- which may be another reason that "Miss White America" wouldn't be an economically feasible pageant; there's not much of a market for ribbon-cutting and sappy-vapid-speech-making for the winner to do over the course of the next year. (And notice, nobody I have heard of is complaining about Italian Heritage Day or Irish-American History Week or whatever -- unlike "white", those are meaningful cultures, and they should be respected and honored.)

[Bluebear]

55. :)

:)

[NorthernSpy]

36. How come there's a Miss German-American?

Aren't they discriminating against everyone who isn't German-American?


http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/Archives2003/Jan.-Mar.2003/032703/NewFiles/MISS%20GERMAN-AMERICAN.html

[Bluebear]

38. Will you be treating us to every ethnic pageant?

[redqueen]

65. It's good for lurking freeps!

Their little brains will be all confused trying to explain how all those don't really count as "white".

:rofl:

[NorthernSpy]

39. How come there's a Miss Italian-American?

Aren't they discriminating against anyone who isn't Italian-American?

http://iaccrochester.org/italian.htm

[mondo joe]

72. That's because Italian women are more dangerous than shotguns. Wouldn't be fair

or safe for the other women.

[MNDemNY]

40. You could have a "Miss White America" pageant..

Good luck getting sponsors. Yup it's the $$$

[DS1]

42. Because there are no black people in North Dakota

therefore the states are not fairly represented.

Seems pretty obvious to me :shrug:

[NorthernSpy]

47. How come there's a Miss Irish Eyes?

Aren't they discriminating against people with non-Irish eyes?

http://www.themillennews.com/news/2006/0322/Other_Jenkins_News/050.html

[redqueen]

58. Can a non-Irish person have Irish eyes?

DISCRIMINATION!

DISCRIMINATION!

:rofl:

[mondo joe]

67. I'm not Irish but I have Irish eyes.

They're in a jar in my collection.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. Reminds me of some Portland high school students who complained

that they had to learn about black culture in school but never got to learn about white culture. :rofl:

(Hey, dude, you know that Shakespeare play you slept through?)

[IndianaJones]

85. whats up with having their own college fund? nt.

[redqueen]

101. Dare you to start that as its own topic. (nt)

[IndianaJones]

106. It would get rec'd to the greatest page. nt.

[Bluebear]

108. Is it me?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2173843&mesg_id=2174048

[NorthernSpy]

110. what's up with all the white ethnic scholarships?

Do some fucking research for once before you start whining.


http://www.multiculturaladvantage.net/diversity/2006/11/30/white-ethnic-scholarships-dont-concern-student-group-protesting-minority-scholarships/

[IndianaJones]

118. can I compete for all the white scholarships I want? nt

[NorthernSpy]

122. oh, I'm sure they'd love to give you their money...

A fine scholar such as yourself.

[IndianaJones]

131. well, I've been wrong about white people all along then. nt.

[KingFlorez]

138. The answer is simple

It was started because the white colleges weren't giving scholarships to blacks based on race, how hard is that to understand?

[IndianaJones]

140. isn't that reversism? nt.

[KingFlorez]

143. Reversism isn't a word

But I get your point and no it is not reverse racism, because the UNCF has never had segregated rules, anyone is free to apply.

[IndianaJones]

146. sense when is reversism not a word? nt.

[KingFlorez]

148. It's not in the dictionary

[IndianaJones]

150. big fat deal. clouding the debate. nt.

[NorthernSpy]

154. there's good reversism, and there's bad reversism...

In good reversism, you always check all three mirrors and look over your shoulder before you ever take your foot off the brake.


In bad reversism, you insist that there are no such things as blind-spots if you adjust your mirrors according to a revolutionary new method that you are currently in the process of patenting.

You scrape three other cars and take out a hydrant.

[sakabatou]

109. "At the end of the ceremony, all most give thanks to

Hitler for bringing in the ubermnech."

:puke:

[Katherine Brengle]

125. "7. Contestant must be in good health and of the white race."

I feel ill, literally. Is this still on the books?

[redqueen]

128. If it was, why would he go back to '48 for the example? (nt)

[Bluebear]

129. No, thankfully

[NorthernSpy]

130. no, it's not still on the books...

Not sure when they changed it, though.

Also, that "in good health" bit seems to reflect other eugenic concerns. Anyone with a disability would also have been carefully rooted out, I imagine.

[IndianaJones]

133. this thread is surreal. nt.

[RandomKoolzip]

136. Why do we have to have a "Miss ANYTHING" anyways?

Our culture is vastly different now than it used to be and this particular institution just seems less than necessary - beauty pageants are nothing but sexist horseraces anyway, IMO.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

158. now that is a good point.

[KingFlorez]

137. Good point

People who use analogies like that are so ridiculous.

[begin_within]

149. The second season of "In Living Color" had a "Miss Black Person USA" contest

which was a panic.

[Chovexani]

172. She's black!

MISS BLACK PERSON USA!



David Alan Grier was a riot in that sketch. :rofl:

[IsItJustMe]

159. I don't see any harm in it, and of course, white folk were never slaves in the good old US of A.

Maybe they are making up for lost time.

[devilgrrl]

162. How about a Miss Average Looking America?

:shrug:

[Scout]

164. let's just get RID of stupid fucking beauty pageants n/t

[Swamp Rat]

165. Down with "beauty pageants!"

:puke:

[JuniperLea]

167. So, now that this contest is open to all races...

Why is there still a need for a Miss Black America Pageant?

I've always felt that "beauty" pageants were shallow as all hell, no matter the color of the contestant's skin.

A former "Miss Lomita" gave me her old exceptionally cool wardrobe when she won a whole new one in the contest. Since she wanted to go to college, I thought a scholarship would have been a better prize. I think that was the year that Regis Philbin MC'd the contest... and Rosemary Clooney sang... Rosemary was my favorite part. I wanted to be her soooo badly!!! Not because she was cute as a bug's ear, but those pipes! Damn fine pipes! But I digress egregiously:)

I'm of the firm belief that there should be no race mentioned anywhere. No Negro College Fund, no White Kid College Fund, no Miss Black this, that or the other... no white only... no Irish need not apply... nothing. Until we stop pointing to the differences, we will always consider ourselves different. And we aren't. And we need to stop.

[NorthernSpy]

170. first send your complaints to all the white ethnic scholarships and pageants....

http://www.multiculturaladvantage.net/diversity/2006/11/30/white-ethnic-scholarships-dont-concern-student-group-protesting-minority-scholarships/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2173843&mesg_id=2174199


Then perhaps your carping about black scholarships and pageants won't sound quite as asinine and unfair as it currently does.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2173843&mesg_id=2173982

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2173843&mesg_id=2173994

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2173843&mesg_id=2174010

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2173843&mesg_id=2174038

[metalpurist83]

168. i'd say because

otherwise minorities wouldn't get equal representation within the pageants.

don't get your panties in a bunch.

what's next, white history month?

[Bluebear]

173. My 'panties' are fine, thank you.

:crazy: