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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:07 PM
Original message
A former right-wingers advice on how to destroy a key pillar of right-wing ideology
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 02:13 PM by MN Against Bush
As many of you know I am a former right-winger who converted to a leftist about seven years ago. Many people wonder how I could make a shift from a person who wanted to privatize everything, to a person who takes leftist stances on pretty everything without stopping in the middle somewhere first. The truth is though that there was never a place for me in the middle of the spectrum, my right-wing ideology was built on false premises and once I figured out the right-wing lie there was nowhere to go but to where the truth is.

Basically right-wing ideology at least from an economic sense rests on one overriding value, trust in the corporation. Right-wingers believe that corporations can run things better than the government can. That is essentially what their entire economic platform is built on. They refuse to provide universal health care because they believe that corporations will take care of them. They hate taxes because they would much rather pay corporations for services than they would the government. They believe the corporations are trust-worthy entities that only have the people's best interests at heart, because they believe that if a corporation violates a person's trust the market will punish them. Unfortunately however, the facts show a very different scenario in which corporations profit from screwing people over.

Once a right-winger realizes that the corporations are not working in their best interests though, well then that key pillar of right-wing ideology begins to crumble. For me when I lost trust in the corporations, I was unable to hold on to my right-wing beliefs any more because trust in corporations is really the founding principle of right-wing economic ideology. Once that foundation corrodes, there is nothing left of the ideology. Everything collapses, and there is no place to move but to the left.

This is why it is so important to go after the corporations, because corporations are not as separate from the government as some would like to believe. The Republicans like to emphasize their "pro-business" talking point but we need to start calling bullshit whenever we hear the Republicans talk about business. The truth is they are not talking about business, they are talking corporations. The word business is far too broad, it puts the Mom and Pop corner shop on the same level as Exxon or Wal-Mart. This makes it difficult for people to recognize that not all business interests are the same. Those of us on the left are not fighting business. We have nothing against the Mom and Pop corner shops, in fact we would like to see more of them. What we are fighting is big corporations who destroy those corner shops and put the country's wealth into the hands of a small number of people.

We need to emphasize that the right-wing is not pro-business, they are pro-corporate and there is a big difference. We need to expose the abuses of corporations, because once we can expose those abuses and the people realize they are being screwed over we have basically destroyed the entire foundation of right-wing economic thought.

I converted, and there are plenty of others out there who can convert as well. But as long as there is a trust in corporations it is going to be very difficult to move people to our side. The corporation is the foundation of the Republican Party and the DLC. If I can turn from a right-winger to a progressive without stopping in the middle, I have a hard time believing there are not others out there like me. We don't need to move to the "center" to win people over, we need to chip away at the foundations of the right-wing ideology. Once they lose trust in the corporations ability to handle health care for example, they are likely not going to be running to the DLC for the "third way". They are likely instead to realize that universal health care has been very effective elsewhere, and move to the left.

None of us who live in the middle class or below benefit from corporate power, we may think we do but we don't. Once people realize that the Republican Party is done for.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. A hearty K&R
I would love to see more sectors nationalized - energy/oil and health care for starters.
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Ricki Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
58. K&R?
Pardon me for being naive, but I am new to these boards. What does K&R stand for?
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Kick & Recommend
Kicking the thread back to the top of the listings, and recommending it as well.

Welcome to DU!
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Ricki Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Thank you!
All I could think of was Kidnapping and Rendition :)
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #64
121. Yeah, thank you, but also, NO SHIT!
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rabies1 Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #58
132. Welcome!
I know how you feel well. I was too embarrassed to ask that question when I started. I just kept reading boards until I saw someone say "K & Recommended". Then I got Kick from somewhere.

Hooray for your honesty & courage!!
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. k & r
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. We need an updated version of the term "Robber Baron." Maybe
that term will work now. Corporations are not democratic, they are autocratic. Capitalism does not equal democracy.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Robber-Baron will work. Pirate will work. Pirates in Pinstripes will work.
ANY of 'em will work, especially if they're repeated often enough. Trickle-Downs will work. Corporate Cheapskates will work. Fat-Cat Cheapskates will work. Fat-Cats will work and Cheapskates will work, by themselves. Pennywise/pound-foolish will work. Cheap Labor CONservatives will work. Reverse Robin Hoods will work. Greed-mongers will work. Have-Mores will work. The Screw-You's will work. IGMFUs will work (pronounced IGGUM-foos, stands for "I Got Mine, F-U").

The only way they won't work is if they aren't used. WELL-used. REPEATEDLY used.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I like Robber Barons.




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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. Because 19 chins just aren't enough.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. when he was born, the doctor slapped the mother.
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Johnny Noshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
54. I thought
Mr Creosote was only a character in a Monty Python movie - who knew?

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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #54
164. he also exists in high fever hallucinations
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
85. Yikes! That looks like the UFO baby on the cover of the Weekly World News
all grown up.

Like I said - YIKES!!!!
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Buns_of_Fire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
119. I'd almost erased the image of Jabba the CEO from my memory...
And now he's back. Thanks a lot. :-)
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #119
165. He's so ugly even his money wouldn't get him laid.
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SlowDownFast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
55. Aaaargh! I be takin'exception to the speakin' of Pirates that way, matey!
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 08:05 PM by utopiansecretagent
Them lily-livered scalliwags don't be deservin' to be called Pirates!

Scurvy dogs every one of 'em!

edited to add:
May His Noodly Appendages keelhaul every one of them sons of biscuit eaters!

:toast:
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #55
71. Ramen!


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NBachers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
69. Benedict Arnold Corporations
In his 2004 campaign, John Kerry repeatedly referred to "Benedict Arnold Corporations" who make money in the USA and then hide their money in offshore PO box addresses to avoid paying taxes. It worked for me.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #69
86. Yep, that's another good one. Anything that evokes a word picture.
A picture is much more easily absorbed into the mind and also the subconscious, especially for the majority of us Americans who are visually-oriented.

Excellent!

Welcome to DU, btw!

:hi:
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #69
167. Lincoln said it best.
Worse than traitors in arms are the men who pretend loyalty to the flag, feast and fatten on the misfortunes of the Nation, while patriotic blood is crimsoning the plains. Abraham Lincoln 1863
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
131. kings and serfs will work - kingdoms serfdoms
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #131
133. Their successes just keep rolling in when it comes to winning the
serfs - inspirational advertising with pomp and circumstance music and lots of waving color - we serfs can't see through it. Entertain us with ads and screw us.

Now, you say that we can save 28 million a year if we substitute this ingredient for the one we are using? But, it has some potential problems? What are the risks and when would they be showing up?

And so on.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
147. Yet the Baronial Ones themselves do NOT do any of the actual WORK!
Which just drives me nuts.

I mean, we are talking about WORK here, right? In the end, of course, it's the little guys 'n' gals, the so-called common (wo)man, the regular working stiff (where ya reckon they got that "stiff" term?), the pissant peasant/serf/peon/slave class folk, who actually do all the work that keeps our cultures running.

I worked for 33 years as an executive secretary, much of the time in the penthouse offices of CEOs and VEEPs and the like. I was highly skilled so I worked my way up to the best-paying jobs. But by the end of my career, when my bosses had worked me into a disabled condition and tossed me aside for my younger clones (who would take care of them for even less pay), I had grown so sick of such high-ranked bosses that I deliberately chose to work for middle-management and enginnering types.

Being from Oklahoma, and having worked on the construction of the TransAlaska Pipeline in the mid-70's, I have a LOT of experience with "energy industry" top execs and the oil sheiks they hang with. I've often said that if the people really knew what these people do to screw them on purpose and heartily and happily, they would get mad enough to do something about the situation.

But I realize by now that I was foolish to think that. Fact is, in spite of the encouraging tone of the OP, I've concluded that most people do know just how thoroughly they're being ripped off by the megacorps and ultrawealthy assholes who own them. They understand that it's us on the bottom of the totem pole who really produce goods of value, while those who live in a separate world far above us in mansions and their own jets and yachts are just taking from us what we produce and earn, and keeping it for themselves.

The super-rich don't produce a damn thing, when it comes down to it. All they do is cheat and steal and lie, and try to keep everyone who isn't already in their class so desperate and scared they'll continue to let the bastards get away with whatever outrages they wish to perpetrate on us. They're very good at this "non-work" they do -- learning the knack for oppressing the masses from their fathers and mothers and on up the line.

I've given up on Americans ever "waking up" and actually doing anything about the outrages. It's not like they don't know what's going on and where they're likely to end up, after all, is it? Seriously now. They KNOW.

And it's not like they don't care -- I'm not saying that. They just don't care enough to risk what little they have to fight the beast. And by the time they face the fact that they've become virtual slaves on whose backs the megawealthy live like kings, it's too late and all power they had to revolt has evaporated.

At that point, all many folks have left is ... religion! And, of course, support for war on other people who worship a different god, or call him a different name.

*Sigh*


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clarence swinney Donating Member (673 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #147
158. CORPORATE CASINO
Wall Street is a buddy buddy organization of wealthy groups.

They research every company in America to determine who can buy them.

A small group owns America via the corporations.

I was an executive with three firms which were largest in their industry in America and two were bought out by Takeovers using Michael Milken pension funds, S&L funds, etc.

They were then traded amongst the Robber Barons who stripped assets plus sold off divisions and individual plants.

It was not good for America.

It was trading card games.

Million lost jobs, benefits, etc.

Milken and horde sold it as efficiency. Baloney. It was destructive for wealth for a few.

America has allowed wealth and power to creep into a few hands.

The Middle Class will begin to suffer in the very near future. Then what?











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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #158
168. Agree on all counts.
I was working at corporate or regional headquarters for some damn big companies which were bought or merged while I was there. Not only is it a big board game for those with enough power and wealth to get into the game in the first place, it's a losing proposition for anyone who does not have billions to play with.

One company that employed me I actually liked and "went perm" with after several months as a temp (I mostly worked temp, period) -- they had good benefits and were fairer to their employees than most. Immediately after a bigger fish gobbled them up in a leveraged buyout, all the decent treatment of employees ceased.

Heads rolled right and left... and strangely, the people they did keep were the crappy ones! Folks they could get to do their bidding no matter how nasty it was, or how dishonest, and no matter who it hurt.

I saw this sort of thing so many times I learned to just get the hell out of a company once takeover or merger or buyout moves began. One reason working temp can be a good thing! There is not much that's more depressing in the working world than to watch employees all around you cease to enjoy life at all as they live in fear and dread of the "pink slip" in their next paycheck, or get called in to be given the ax, or to be told their hours would be reduced along with benefits. It's grim, as you obviously know. Not an environment I wanted to enter day after day.

Problem was, everywhere I went, the same damn thing kept happening! There is no stability in any employment situation anymore for most people. The Big Guys like it that way; scared and nervous employees are ones they can control more easily.

And the middle class are already feeling it, and feeling it in a big way.

The middle class in the U.S. is disappearing so rapidly my head is spinning. If nothing happens to turn the trend around, there will be little left pretty soon except the very few megawealthy and a huge population of worker bees living in poverty. Drones. Beasts of burden who live short, mean, and desperate lives.

And as far as I can see, ALL the politicians are completely and totally now either in the pocket of those big-money power players -- or they are themselves among the power players. Either way, they are part of the problem, not the solution, I've sadly concluded.

It seems to me we've accepted lies and abuse of our trust as the norm for so long we've forgotten things could ever be any other way....


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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #158
172. If a company moves off shore, let its products rot on the shelves.
If they keep pulling crap on us, shut down the country for a day. If that doesn't work, extend it to two days or a week.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
151. Call them all "Simon Legree".
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. Ivy League Mafia
Junior and his World scale protection racket. It's just like prohibition in Chicago and Al Capone is in charge.

They tell us they are protecting us. Bullshit. We didn't go to iraq and kill a Million civilians. We didn't poison the planet with Depleted Uranium.
'Terrorists', 'Islamo Fascists' or whatever they want to call them have nothing against us. The only way they would hurt me is if I was collateral damage. It's the chicken hawks, neocons, xtofacists, corporate fat cats and other war mongers they're after and we're told 'We' have to sacrifice, 'We' have to send our sons and daughters, mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters to die in some stinking shit hole because some corporate asshole wants to control the oil.

Out them all for what and who they really are.

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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
67. Right. This group is WORSE than the Mob.
The Mafia didn't go after everyone and anyone like these criminals do.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. And at least the Mob has principles
Mob hits usually aim to only hit members of other crime families and try to avoid collateral damage. When corporations go to war its like both sides carpet bombing with no real restraint on it.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #73
114. Funny you mention that
When I was young, I went to work for a company that was promoting a mining venture. About two weeks after starting work, I came to realize that it was a scam, so I warned one of the major investors and they pulled their money out. One of the principals of the company happened to be related to one of the Jersey crime families and he threatened to put a contract out on me for blowing his scam. It turned out the investors were from a New England Mob clan. And they told me that they warned the Jersey jerk that it was his personal business and the family wasn't going to get involved and if he touched a hair on my head, they would put a hit on him.

I got away from that bunch as fast as I could.

A couple of years later I was in college. One of my friends at school came up to me one day and told me about going to a wedding in Mass. The bride was the daughter of a made man. Her father asked my friend if he knew me. He said: " He did us a favor once. He's an ok guy."

That was scary.
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NBachers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
70. The Biggest Protection Racket in the History of the World
Nice little USA you got here . . . it'd be a shame if anything . . . happened to it.
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muntrv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
42. Corporatist is the word. That's what the bushies are.
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Polemicist Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
84. Predatory Capitalism...
Seems to fit. As opposed to regulated capitalism, where your progressive government, through the use of democracy, transparency, and accountability, regulates the predatory capitalist corporations to prevent them from abusing the public.

I just today read the line from Dennis Kucinich. Predatory Capitalism is the problem. American insurance companies graze on the American public like a cash crop. (quote paraphrased and not exact)

That's powerful imagery.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #84
137. Powerful indeed. Very good explanation of Freidman vs Keynes vs Marxist
Friedman -- Predatory Capitalism (Reaganomics)
Keynesian -- Regulated Capitalism (FDR)
Marxist -- Socialism (Communism)
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well done, another K&R
Why people think that an entity whose foremost priority is to generate profit is any better at providing service than an entity whose foremost priority is to generate the service itself is one of the true puzzles of conservative thinking.

You're right. Once we kick that one out from under them, their whole edifice is going to collapse right on top of them.

The most flawless logic in the world will produce nonsense if based on faulty premises. See: Ayn Rand. In other words, garbage in, garbage out.
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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
115. that and .... Why put someone in charge of something they don't
believe in or want to make work?
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's the corporations, stupid!
Not calling *you* stupid - I'm trying to get my pet meme taken up.... ;)
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flyingfysh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. there is another key pillar of right-wing ideology
For some people, at least, it is/was fundamentalist religion. Once you get rid of that, the rest of the right-wing set of ideas crumbles rapidly. It sounds like your case is different. A lot of right-wingers are not fundamentalists.
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I Have A Dream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yes, they still have the War on Christmas to fight! nt


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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. It's hard to get rid of
fundamentalist religion but...you can help them to realise that they are just seen as useful idiots by the Repubs
(a better bunch of gullible and pliable idiots is hard to find).

Of course the Repubs are their own worst enemy, every time there's a gay Repub sex scandal I'm sure a few more fundies wake up.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. I was never a fundamentalist so I did not include that...
But you are right no doubt. Not all right-wingers are right-wingers for the same reasons, but I was emphasizing what changed me and what could change many others. Not being a religious person myself, there are probably other converts that could provide more insight into how they changed on the social issues than I could. My analysis though would be to look at all the numerous ways that Republican ideology violates biblical teachings. Considering a huge portion of the Bible is specifically about helping the poor it would certainly not be hard to show the hypocrisy of the corporate right-wingers in numerous ways.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
45. What do you make of the fact that so many RWingers who would be better off
with a Dem as president and whose interests are betrayed by the RW, continue to VOTE for them? I have tried and tried to figure this out. You would be in a position to know.

How does this happen?
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. I think the number one reason is that they don't know their interests are being betrayed
The truth is that there is a lot of propaganda out there, and a lot of people who are just not very educated about what is going on. If they actually heard our message I think a lot of them would listen, but we have not been very effective in getting true progressive values communicated to the people. Let's face it there are not a lot of good progressives on television news. Sure there is Olbermann, but the fact is even though he has very good ratings the actual number of people who watch him is a very small percentage of the population as a whole. If we could develop better methods of communication I have no doubt that we could make big inroads in the reddest of red states.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. But that is so tough. They can see in their own lives what is going on!
This is what drives us progressives crazy. The message is plain. They just don't get it.

So, following your advice. How do we change our message to reach people?
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #62
75. I really don't know if they can see...
A lot of people don't connect their situation at work to the situation in our government. They don't consider that the reason that their employers are screwing them over is because the government is allowing them to. Consumers don't always recognize that the reason they were ripped off at the gas pump is because the politicians allowed Exxon to rip them off.

People need to be able to connect politics to their daily lives, and the media's focus on trivial issues makes it difficult for them to do that. What we need to do is show people how politics effects them.

I think one mistake we make is focusing too heavily on elections and too little on issues. Now I am not saying elections are not important because they most certainly are, but the truth is we are not just fighting to defeat a candidate we are fighting to defeat an ideology. It is really important that we sometimes distance ourselves from electoral politics and really let people know why we believe what we believe. We need to show people that politics is not a football game, but a very serious deal that has real consequences. Education is key, people are not going to switch sides unless they believe there is a reason to change sides and if they do change it will almost certainly be an issue that changes them not a candidate.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #57
68. That's because the media is a corporation too.
They don't want to break down their pillar, even if it's some "other" corporation.
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #57
120. You hit the nail on the head right there!
The truth is that there is a lot of propaganda out there, and a lot of people who are just not very educated about what is going on.

Ignorance is the number one cause of right-wing nuttery, in my opinion. I have seen numerous polls revealing that Republican support is strongest among the least educated, least worldly, and generally least knowledgeable among us. Most of these people are viewers of Fox Noise which, as we know, actually increases their ignorance.

If I believed even half of the crazily wrong stuff that the busheep believe, I am sure I would have many of the same opinions they do.

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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #57
128. It is a proven fact that propaganda, good public relations, gossip and the like are more strongly
believed than facts. The rethugs have been very effective and are masters at the art of deception. Look at all of the dis-information services and power they have at their hand. Faux news is just one example.

Until the left learns from the right wing game plan, I don't see how large scale change will occur.
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clarence swinney Donating Member (673 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #128
163. Democrats will not promote success
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clarence swinney Donating Member (673 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #57
161. Uneducated Populance
No question. Local letters to the editor are so dumb you wonder how they were able to spell.

I know very few Republicans who are well informed.

Pastors push votes for those against abortion and marriage. Only.

Overlook the policies which are anti-christ-anti-america and anti-world.

Say nothing about policies for top 20% and ignore the Least Amongst Us.

99% literacy in America?

What is political information literacy?

My county has 37,000 registered Democrats and 27,000 registered Republicans.

Bush got 27,000 votes and Gore 17,000.

Pastors pushing anti-abortion.

My pastor had an insert in our bulletin on Sunday before 2006(or 2004) election saying vote for Liz Dole and Burr due to stance on abortion and gay marriage.

That hurt.My Dad founded the church in 1927.
The only time I have ever seen anything political from his pulpit.

Democrats are losing church votes due to abortion and gay marrige.

Bil Clinton stopped Abortion with his constant referral to legal-safe-rare-rape-incest-moms life.

Ever hear a Democrat call a Republican "
Mommie Killers"?

Mainstream Democratic Party needs a Revival Meeting on what to present that works.

John Edwards is closest.
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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #45
116. two words racism and abortion
The southern strategy has worked. Hopefully the end of that is near.
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Truthy Nessy Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #45
134. The answer to this you can find in the book Hunting with Jesus
The book is amazing and funny and sad. I was astounded reading it and now understand the people who watch FOX, vote Bush and are the working poor but refuse to acknowledge it.

Joe Bageant is the author of Hunting with Jesus: Dispatches from America's Class War.

I read it and now understand my right wing relatives. It's scary.

One can also get a good understanding of the corporations when reading Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine. Also read John Perkins' two books, Confessions of An Economic Hit Man
and The Secret History of the American Empire.

Another good one is A Game As Old As Empire: The Secret World of Economic Hit Men and the Web of Global Corruption. Edited by Steven Hiatt. Chapters by various EHMs.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #45
138. Abortion, Gay Rights and Guns
The party is held hostage by those wedge issues.

Ironically, nothing will ever be done by the (R)s about a one of them because without those carrots, people will have to look at the issues before voting. Right now, all they need to hear is that Joe is for Abortion and Jack wants 'dem queers to marry and take over our orphanages and schools.

Matters not what is behind the curtain at that point.

*sigh*
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. A grand deception that starts with their 'Left Behind' eschatology
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bjorkfan Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
60. You wouldn't like preterism any better.....
Preterism (the opposite of "Left Behind" rapture theology) is the basis for Christian Reconstructionism, the belief of R.J. Rushdoony, Gary North, D. James Kennedy, Pat Robertson, Earl Paulk and many of the Trinity Broadcast Network crowd. Their eschatology is Postmillennialism, the belief that God's kingdom began at the first coming of Jesus Christ and will advance by the political and social Christianization of every nation into a Christian nation.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #60
89. Welcome to DU!
Interesting. I had not heard of this before. Either they OR the (I call it) CRAP-ture people seem hell-bent (pardon the pun) on destroying the earth.

This always takes me directly back to a statement reagan's abomination of an Interior Secretary, james watt, actually stated straight out that "when the last tree is felled, Jesus will come back."

No wonder they don't care about global warming. If they can't get us to Armageddon by force, they can fuck up the environment so Mother Nature does the heavy lifting for them.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #89
170. Most liberal Christians are very Green. and the Bible speaks of 'stewardship'
of the earth. These conservative types go with the Genesis 'dominion'-ist view (without any emphasis on commonsense and sustainability). The way to id these people is how they answer the Bible's key question: 'Am I my brother's keeper ?'
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #60
140. Yes, and with theological groups such as Kingdom Now, Joel's Army, and a host of other monikers
The belief that Christ won't/can't return until the church 'cleans up' the world for him.

These people think that they have to take complete control of the world and turn it into a Garden of Eden for their theology to prove true.

It is not scriptural.
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dickbearton Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
38. Also include, greed and fear; Corporate bribery and Religious fire and brimstone.
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bad_robbie Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
127. I think the fundies are being used by corporate repubs
They see them as uneducated and easily controlled. Every few years they tell them "vote for us and we'll get rid of abortion for you". Then they make things a little better for the corporations and a few years later say: "vote for us again, those darn libruls kept us from getting rid of abortion for you." So Billy Bob keeps on voting for abortion bans and school prayer and the end of evolution, and instead he gets "bank reform" and telecom deregulation and upper bracket tax cuts and does it again 2 or 4 years later. See What's the Matter With Kansas by Thomas Frank.
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flyingfysh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
160. I should have mentioned a very good reference
I am partway throught reading American Theocracy, by Kevin Phillips (former pro-Nixon Republican strategist), who does a very thorough analysis of American attitudes as influenced by religion back to and before the Civil War. Considering the source, the book seems surprisingly scholarly. I recommend it.
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PollThis Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. As a life long Democrat and an appreciative union member, my advice
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 02:33 PM by PollThis
to middle class working republicans is. If you can't bring yourself to vote for a progressive, stay home on election day and quietly reap the benefits.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
94. If only! It always means good things down the ballot to the local races.
Welcome to DU! Glad you're here. And it's quite shrewd to phrase it the way you do - offering them a way to win even if they don't think they're going to. The old "what's in it for me" thing. For them, it's the benefit of a country with greater respect around the world, an improved economy, a more reasoned, realistic, and compassionate economic and foreign policy, and, TRULY, adults being back in charge, rather than a bunch of spoiled brats and vindictive schoolyard bullies who spend their time cheating in class, stealing your lunch money, and picking fights with the other kids.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
9. It's Not Capitalism Anymore When Robber Barons Buy the Government
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. Bravo! Excellent! K&R n/t
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Some of the same thinking here in Sirota's article....
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
14. Isn't it a little juvenile to wholly distrust one entity while embracing another?
I mean, any thinking person should be able to see that throwing out the government and then acting like corporations are somehow more efficient and purer is really, really infantile and just plain dumb.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Yes, there is a lot of black and white thinking on the matter...
Black and white thinking is pervasive in America, and I think that is a big part of the reason why change is so difficult. Now my basic philosophy is that we can't trust either government or corporations, and we need to take away the powers of corporations while working to fix our government and make it work for the people.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I agree. I also think it is fairly obvious the ONLY way to fix things is to
make our government stronger by making it work for the people. We have no control over what corporations do, who they hire, and how much (100 x the average worker's wages, anyone?) they pay the people the hire, but we can make the government respond to us even if it takes several election cycles.
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stirlingsliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
39. Why Not Do This?
If you agree that we can't really trust either government or corporations, wouldn't it make far more sense to take away the powers of BOTH government AND corporations while working to fix BOTH government AND corporations to make THEM work for the people?

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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
63. yeah. Chaos and anarchy. That's the way to go.
Close to what we have now, but why not make it official.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
16. Socialized Health Care scares the be-Jesus out of them. You might
mention the roads they drive on are socialized. So are the libraries, schools, and the biggest socialized program of all is the US military. All of these are funded by the masses for the benefit of all, so why not health care too?
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
49. There re moves afoot to privatize those other things too.
guarding, Private toll roads, private education, defund the libraries. Hire Blackwater to do our fighting & torturing for us.
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fenriswolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. your right it is a common misconception
that corporations will give you a good deal. What a lot of people who don't trust the gov do not realize is that government is a good thing, as long as it does not get hijacked by corporate thugs which unfortunately is the case. I believe in the gov and as soon as we can get al gore in office and people see the gov can work for them i think a lot of people will also shift ideologies.
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SparkyMac Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
21. I am also traveling from right to left..

and what you say is absolutely true. I

I started drifting away from the fold in 2003 when Bush launched his war. And it took me a long time to see that what you say is true.

If we (all of us) could only convey this truth to the rest of people in Red Nation, we would be finished with Bush and his ilk for good.

Good luck in spreading the word about the weakness of the key right wing pillar.

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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Welcome to DU, SparkyMac!
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 03:33 PM by Jim Sagle
:headbang:
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. Welcome, Sparky Mac.
I'm hoping for the day when the Red States have purple-ized.

Or gone totally amazingly BLUE!
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
50. Welcome, Sparky.
I made that journey too, from libertarianism (before the word was even current in the political dialog) to the left, back in about 1967-69, largely as a result of my returning to college after having spent a year in Vietnam.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #21
97. Whoa! Excellent! Welcome, SparkyMac!
MANY open arms (and open minds) here to welcome you!

Sounds like you're one of those who didn't leave your party. It left you. Hey, their loss is our gain!

:toast: :party: :headbang!
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. Nice job...
You summarized my position as well. Progressive on many issues, conservative on some issues, I consistently am anti-CORPORATION. Anti BIG business. I am forever amazed how people have disgust with "people taking advantage of the system" (by which they mean "welfare moms") and don't bat an eye at Enron. How their pocketbooks are impacted as a result of any legitimate abuse by individuals versus the abuse by billion-dollar corporations is...I don't even have a word...there's simply no comparison.

Maybe we should ask "them" if they believe corporations such as Enron, Halliburton, pharmaceutical and insurance companies are leading our country and economy in the right direction, because they most certainly are the ones in control. If they don't think things are going in the right direction, then they need to stay away from supporting candidates who promote their agenda. Each of the Dem candidates has taken positions with which I both agree and disagree. Because of his stance - his very VOCAL stance - as being against this criminal corporatocracy that has taken hold the last few decades, I am completely behind John Edwards. It is that one specific issue that got my attention. I suppose I am a single-issue voter after all.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
23. Currenlty reading "The Big Con" by Johnathan Chait
aside from his New Republic DLC slant he has a great breakdown of the entire supplyside fallacy and how these few Republicans browbeat the others into having to buy there line.

As far as your points- the following industries show that corporations/privatization are never going to result in low prices or more effective service providing:

Airlines
Health Care
Energy (all facets especially trading)
Security

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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #23
135. What everyone should also realize - with all four industries that
you list - their goal is go get it down to about three of each. Three with the same goals and with all the databases of the military, it's a perfect formula for people control. No choice. Get in line or move out (of the country) or move in (to jail). Narrow the control. All bodies and thoughts accounted for. All trackable.

It was said about the airlines - there will only be three big carriers. They took one telecommunications and made it into many (not too many) and now it's being narrowed. The media - wow - a fast success (I think that's what it is - seven major networks all right wing. Most sharing like CBS and CNN). All saying the same thing. In actuality there are five, not seven - NBC is three in one). They really won out here - no opposition. The same has nearly happened to the newspapers. News magazines partnering with right wing networks. Even the buy out of news networks by corporations.

Narrowing, narrowing... gotcha, serf.
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WileEcoyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
24. It's like I've always said;
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 03:28 PM by WileEcoyote
"Nothing succeeds like failure".

In five to ten years the corporations will have completely cut their ties with the GOP. Simply because the electorate has wised up. Big money won't "bet on an old losing horse".

It's the reason we don't see blatantly racist statements made publicly very often: The world has grown up to a certain degree.

The problem of corporate influence may exist more in the Democratic Party down the road. More than it even does now. This will doom the dems sooner or later too. Should it continue anyway.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
25. I think "corporations," like "business," is a broad term, too.
Maybe "mega-corporations" or "conglomerates" or some such term would be more accurate. (Many small businesses incorporate, too.)
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
28. Big doesn't equal bad. Small doesn't equal good.
I have seen plenty of evil business practices done by small businesses, and some surprisingly good ones done by big business. Speaking as a small businessman, I find it pretty fallacious for someone to say they are for business, but not big business. Most small businesses depend on large ones, as customers, suppliers, and for infrastructure. When a company grows large, hundreds of small businesses are created and thrive around it.

So yes, when you attack corporations, per se, you attack business. And it doesn't redeem the message to say you're against only big corporations. Small businesses need those big corporations. It's one thing to attack particular business practices. And yes, scale matters, so some practices that are bearable when practiced by small business become more socially damaging when practiced by big businesses. And that's why liberals are willing to regulate business in various ways. But simply standing against big business? No, that's not what my liberalism is about.

:hippie:
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. I'm thinking or hoping (or maybe both) that when most people
Talk about being against Big Corporations, they meant the BAD and DISHONEST policies of SOME corporations.

I have met my share of people who think that PROFIT = BAD.

Which as you point out is not the case PER SE.

I too have known of large companies that were benevolent and small companies that were headed by a dishonest or bad person.

But in general, when a person starts mentioning the BADNESS of a large company, I think they are (or should be) referring to a company that politicizes something that needs to remain free of politics.

For instance, when Big Pharma got the Reagan Administration to play all sorts of games in order to have the FDA approve of NutraSweet -without even a label stating that children under five should not consume the stuff, despite evidence of neurologic mis-developments that might occur when children do consume it.

Also, currently we have Big Industry desiring the continued war in Iraq as it is so profitable for the suppliers. Everyone from the automobile manufacturers who supply the Hummers to the Hallibruton side of things there. Big industry's campaign contributions make it unlikely that the war will end in even 2009.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Well, there are people who think profit is bad, in and of itself.
That makes it difficult, especially in a bulletin board format, to know where there is true disagreement, or just lack of precision in expressing views.

:hippie:
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
59. Nor did I say all big was bad and all small was good...
I will say this though, big business does have far more destructive potential than small business does.

Aside from that though by attacking the corporations I was talking about attacking corporate abuses. Essentially I think we need to say that we are not going to let the corporations get by with everything anymore. I am not saying we should be attacking corporations just because they are corporations, I think we need to go after the worst corporations and try to get laws seriously enforced on corporations. Those that pollute our environment or screw over workers or consumers we need to go after.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
29. The six pillars of Republican power
Big Oil (or Big Energy)
Big Insurance
Big Pharmaceuticals
Big Defense
Big Agriculture
Big Media

And all of them are conglomerates of like-minded corporations.

All of them except Big Media in one way or another get fat government contracts and/or subsidies, all of them give big money and influence for getting the government out of their business and letting them make massive profits.

Corporations exist to make profits. As a result, corporations HATE the free market, because competing is hard and risky. You might fail. Much easier and safer to either have a monopoly or to conspire with the 'competition' to price-fix and manipulate the market by forming a cartel.

And one you have your monopoly or cartel, it is much easier to use your money to crush competition than to compete with it. Having your bribed lawmakers pass certain pieces of legislation, junk lawsuits and extended litigation, buying the property the competition operates from (or on), or simply strong-arm tactics like broken kneecaps and arson are MUCH MUCH faster and cheaper than competing.

Yeah, the Religious Right is there too, but they've been so ignored once election day is over, and the choice of RR candidates is so bad (Rudy? Romney? C'mon!) that they're getting to the point of being vestigal, and perhaps even Democrats.
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Somawas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #29
142. Yes, you're close.
The real evil is fascism-the merger of corporate power with state power. Where the conglomerate interests have taken over the regulatory structure and have obtained legislation is the conglomerate interests, power has been merged into a fascist whole. The beginning of the solution is setting state power against corporate power and being sure that state power is just strong enough to penalize or prohibit the practices that strangle free markets.
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GeneCosta Donating Member (190 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
31. Corporations should be democratized
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 03:59 PM by GeneCosta
Corporations enjoy the benefits of being public entities: why not democratize their operations? While we're at it, enough of the stupid bickering between socialist Leftists and capitalist Leftists. Democracy and private institutions can co-exist in a market setting. The community has every right to create a charter for business to perform by, and private institutes {not corporations} have every right to operate as they see fit until their contract expires. This could also mean saving the small mom-and-pop shops from having to compete with the corporations if there are two different standards that make sense.

Public services could be socialized, too. Teacher worker councils would work a lot better than teacher unions.



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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Pre-existing corporations offer unequal representation at best.
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 04:13 PM by Selatius
The power of your voice is largely dependent upon how many shares you own, and that determines how many votes you have. The more shares you own, the more influence you have over the course of the corporation. Unless you established a corporation specifically tailored to give every shareholder an equal vote, it's near impossible to democratize a pre-existing corporation unless you force invested shareholders to give up some of their shares to others for the sake of equality.

It's simply easier to establish a worker co-op such as the Mondragon Cooperative Corporation, and set up a government program that encourages workers to establish co-op businesses by teaching them about not just entrepreneurship but also about mutual cooperation.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
44. Do you expect that ever to be more than a fraction of businesses?
People can and do set up worker-owned businesses. But I doubt they ever will be more than a small fraction of existing businesses. One way to think about that is to imagine an experiment where 1,000 such businesses are created, and then to imagine the events that happen along the way that would change that structure. To name just a few:

1) The business has done well, and wants to go public. It could, of course, maintain the kind of structure you describe, using two classes of stock. The underwriter explains, for the particular market involved, that that will lower the expected post IPO value of the stock. The current owners vote for greater value over preserving structure.

2) The business does well, and is acquired by another business. Mergers and acquisitions are part of how the business space evolves.

3) Or, one part of the business is doing well, and the other part is sold to another business.

4) The business is under-capitalized and needs an infusion of cash. No lender is willing to give unsecured credit. The only investors willing to come to the rescue want not just shares, but also board representation reflecting those shares.

5) The business goes out of business, and its assets are sold off in bankruptcy proceedings to a new owner. The new owner sets up a similar business, but has no interest in dividing control.

Of course, 5) also is a way that a business with some other structure might revolve back to the original structure. The point is that corporate structure is one of the aspects of a business that gets perturbed as a business goes through various key events in its lifecycle. Start with 100 corporations so structured, and in ten years, only some fraction will survive, and only some fraction of the survivors will retain their original structure. That's the case regardless of the initial structure. I doubt such a feature is orthogonal to other aspects of keeping a business a going concern, so I would expect to see such structure more in some markets than in others, and for certain kinds of businesses than for others.

:hippie:
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. In the current order of things, never. There's a problem with conflict of interest.
That is, the people who are supposed to regulate corporations often have close relationships with those corporations, and there really is no legal benefit under current law for starting a corporation that operates upon one person one vote principle, not to mention that few have the idea of what a co-op is.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. The events I describe require no conflict of interest at all.
Each party is openly operating in their own interest, without any backdoor agenda. To take one example, angel investors who come to the rescue of an under-capitalized business may, quite correctly, see it in their own interest to want board level representation, for the stake of the company they purchase. The existing owners make such a deal because they legitimately think it is the best deal in their own interest.

It happens all the time.

:hippie:

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #47
152. No, I was generally speaking to the issue of government regulation of the markets.
There's massive conflicts of interest there, especially under Republicans and sometimes with Democrats, the less clean one anyways. In such a regulatory environment with lax enforcement, it's very difficult to fly straight and be competitive with firms who cut corners to save revenue, which can be used to gain a competitive advantage over others who don't cut corners.
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GeneCosta Donating Member (190 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
51. You're 100% correct
Stock voting is not democratic. I don't think how much stock you own should have any bearing on how many votes you get. If you want to enter stocks just for financial reasons, then so be it.

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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #31
99. Welcome!
Sounds like a version of one of my favorite sayings: "Much blessed? Much obligated."

We have to start reworking and rephrasing the whole concept of "socialized" this-and-that. "Socialized" is a dirty word, as the bad guys have worked so hard to do to the word "liberal" also. The point made earlier here about how - well - roads are socialized. Food inspections are socialized. Garbage collection is socialized. What's it to ya? It's undertaken by the government for the common good, just the same as are the FEMA and Homeland Security operations in which the feds step in when local or state government is overwhelmed (like the California fires and the Minneapolis bridge collapse) or the crisis crosses state lines (like Katrina). You want out? Fine. Then load up your Escalade and take your own trash to the landfill every week.

Speaking of the California fires, the San Diego area - Rancho Bernardo, Rancho Santa Margarita, et al, are very affluent areas. Tending to vote republi-CON. Their congresspeople, brian bilbray, duncan hunter, darrel issa, showed their smug-ass, phony, manipulative, shortsighted mugs around the fire area. I wonder how many of those among the affluent who lost their homes will now scream for federal aid programs to help bail them out? They'll think it's just fine then.

But that's what the federal government is for - to handle the things the little guy, the local institutions, and local/regional government can't. We HAVE to start pointing to specifics.
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stirlingsliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
37. But Couldn't The Government Also Be Viewed As A Big Corporation
Your idea sounds nice.

But I fear lots of right-wingers view the government as little more than another Big Coroporation.

And they get especially exercised about a Big Government in the hands of someone like Hilary Clinton or Barak Obama.

Think of how we feel with a Big Government in the hands of George Bush.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
90. The question isn't big government or small; the question is corruption of government . . ..
an I don't see how anyone could miss that reality --- ?

Wiretapping doesn't bother them -- ?

Corrutpion of every government agency via corporation influence/favoratism doesn't bother them -- ?

"Illegal" wars don't bother them -- ???

Bankrutping the Treasury -- ???

Torture -- ???

GOP racism, sexism, homophobia doesn't bother them -- ?

No concerns for increasing poverty/homelessness/uninsured children -- ?

Who are these people?
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muntrv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
41. Corporatist is the word. That's what the bushies are.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
43. That's pretty much what turned me totally against the repub party
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 05:46 PM by lyonn
For years it only seemed American to be proud of our companies and the jobs they provided. We exported all around the world. I bought into the smaller govt. idea, what a joke that turned out to be. The Dems have been the barrier between the ordinary people and the powerful. The corps are running our country. No one speaks of monopolies but that is what is happening. Remember Standard Oil, early 1900's? They finally got knocked down by the anti-trust laws. Time to dig out those old lawsuits.

Religion did creep into my disillusion with the repubs. They were telling us how to be moral and what was moral. Example: Abortion was bad, churches ruled.... It became obvious that repubs felt smarter/superior to the masses.

The Dem candidates need to tell the people they aren't tougher on terrorism just smarter - blowing up countries is not tough, just stupid. Iraq is proof.

Edit: Tort laws is another issue I have with repubs. Who or what will protect the people from dangerous products or physicians? Of course there needs to be some guards against outrageous lawsuits.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
48. Bueno
k and r
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OxQQme Donating Member (694 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. It's beyond the corporate entities.
Profit is the motivational source. The dark side.
Any business, large or small, is operated to make a profit.
Mark it up to what the market will bear, cut costs, evade taxes through any possible loop-hole.
As taught in our fine edumacation system: Profit is GOD-like!
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
53. As more and more people
get laid off, endure cuts in pay and benefits, and working for many years without a pay raise; our work against the Corporate Robber Barons should become easier.

But it does amaze me that there are so many obedient sheep out there sticking up for the Rich CEOs and management. They'll learn, someday.

I have worked for many Corps and in a variety of industries...the one thing that amazed me was how stupid the management was at most of them. And I mean STUPID...no common sense in problem-solving. Everyone just wanted to have meetings and talk.

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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
56. When one single Corporation can make a NET PROFIT of OVER one hundred million a DAY
One hundred million dollars a DAY, every day seven days a week fifty two weeks a year. This is NET PROFIT, that is profits made after all expenses are paid. In the pocket money.. One Hundred Million Dollars a Day and we are struggling to get just a few more kids some BASIC Health Care..The Corporation is EXXON and these NET PROFITS have been gong on now for several years.. Every single friggin' day One Hundred Million Dollars..It is unfathomable..
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #56
92. This is a major issue and why capitalism, itself, must be examined .. ..
After the coup on JFK when the battles to deregulate began -- i.e., overturning the New Deal -

corporations wanted to increase their earnings. I think 10% was kind of Bibical and accepted; of

course, they were making more.

Instead of telling them that was it -- Congress told them to diversify to expland their profits.


Again -- all the world has understood the foulness of capitalism; except where it has reigned.

Capitalism is something we have to look at here -- discuss and understand.

Capitalism and democracy are NOT synonymous.





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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
65. Excellent post!
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 08:43 PM by bushwentawol
Greetings from one former conservative to another. As you stated there are a lot more of us out there. Corporations also need to take a secondary role to that of individuals. Corporate personhood needs to be abolished. That's the cornerstone of any real change in this country.



Nominated.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #65
93. I think they recognize that corporate "personhood" wasn't official established, but ....
thru devious means . . . a headline suggesting it????

But you're correct -- corporations were intended to be raised to serve the public and when
the job was done -- or when they were corrupted -- that they would be folded.

Most emphatically, we need to bar corporations from any involvement in our elections.

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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
66. I love your point about not moving the center!
I don't see why we have to be centrists to appeal to everyone. When we realize that most of the people in the U.S. benefit from reduced corporate power, the appeal of "centrism" falls on its face. Most people won't benefit, therefore, they won't vote for it...if they see the light.

Recommended.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
72. But it trickles down...
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 09:04 PM by Baby Snooks
There are still fools who believe the massive wealth of the corrupt Republicans somehow "trickles down" to them eventually so they keep voting Republican. Maybe next year, they tell themselves, they, too, will get that promotion or that big bonus. And year after year, they tell themselves that. As they slide into economic oblivion along with the rest of us. The real problem is some Democrats believe the same thing and look the other way with regard to the corruption. The way the Republicans do. If the company does well, they will do well. And their representative voted for them, really, not for the corporation when they voted for the tax cuts or the loopholes or the various tax breaks the corporations use to avoid paying taxes. Denial is a wonderful place to be if that is the only place you can find some sense of hope for the future. The vacation in denial comes to an end when the proverbial bottom falls out and you can no longer afford it. Which is happening to more and more Americans. Republicans and Democrats.

Reality is most corporations pay very little in taxes on their actual profit. In some cases, as some realized with regard to the hedge fund managers, they actually pay no taxes at all. Leona Helmsley never said only the little people pay taxes. But most Republicans and some Democrats have. And they firmly believe that ONLY the little people should pay taxes. And at this point, only the little people do.

My personal opinion for some time has been that the Republican and Democratic parties are becoming a scam perpetrated on the public. Instead of Republicans or Democrats, we now have Republicrats. Out for themselves. Not for us. Republicrats simply are con artists whose party affiliation is based on demographics of a district they intend to run in rather than actual belief in platforms of a particular party.

Just the same, them that's got the gold makes the rules. And even when they don't got have the power, the Republicans got the gold. The banking system is not exactly a Democratic power base. It's not necessarily a Republican base either. But the bankers do prefer the Republicans. They are more "banker friendly" than Democrats.

"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation and I care not who makes its laws." And with that, Mayer Rotschild created his empire. And with that, no doubt, his descendents and quite a few proteges of their system of oligarchy created the Federal Reserve Bank. The moneychangers. They control it all.

They have completely hijacked our judicial branch. And we have gone from "by the people, for the people" to "by the corporation, for the corporation." It's called oligarchy. Not democracy.

It will probably take the Democrats 25 years to undo what the Republicans have done. If they even can. They have to maintain the majority. And even then, as we've seen, the majority doesn't always speak for the majority which is the American people.

The corporations have bought both parties. That is the reality. But bring up campaign finance reform and you get a dirty look from leaders in both parties. They change the rules, add the loopholes, and call it reform. And then offer themselves to the highest bidder.

As long as corporations are able to buy Congress, they will.
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AikidoSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #72
81. Swamp Rat should make us a picture of a fat rich dude standing on an ornate
balcony, pissing on the ordinary citizens on the street below.... with caption, "Trickle Down Economics".
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #81
88. Just scroll back up...
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 11:55 PM by Baby Snooks
Just scroll back up to #15 and there is your poster boy of the "fat rich dude" who at the time that photo was taken was not only pissing on the ordinary citizens but Congress as well. That is the former Mr. Exxon-Mobil who on his way to the bank to deposit his $400+ million dollar retirement check, all told he walked away with around $1 billion according to some, managed to spare a few insights into the reality of the corporate world with Congress. Summed up, in between the lines of what was said, he basically told Congress that if Congress wants to fuck with Exxon-Mobil then Exxon-Mobil will take its gasoline somewhere else. When Exxon-Mobil talks, Congress listens!

I know it's not nice to comment about people's "appearance" but in this case at the time I thought, well, $400 million isn't really that much given that he looks like he spends half that much at McDonalds, Burger King and Jack-in-the-Box every year. McDonalds for breakfast, Burger King for lunch, and Jack-in-the-Box for dinner. The midnight snack before bed is probably a half-gallon of all 31 flavors from Baskin-Robbins. The oscenely rich really are different from you and me. They apparently are able to eat more. And apparently do.

If nothing else, he is the proverbial pig and it shows. Certainly the poster boy for oligarchy. Usually established through oilgarchy.

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dougolat Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #72
91. Remember Enron?
Enron was a perfect example of actual, purposefully harm to
society; and what happened? A few token scapegoat trials, no
real righting of wrongs, no lessons learned, and then 911
distracts everyone, building 7 conveniently destroys most of
the evidence, and we move on to war-crimes for profiteers and
oil companies! Yes, corporate "personhood" has grown
into a system that allows immortal "persons" to
affect local referenda elections with their "free speech
rights", backed by economic resources greater than some
entire countries. A benevolent corporation is subject to
hostile take-over by raiders who can make more profits by
passing on more "costs' to the commons, or cutting out
the "touchy-feely" policies, or selling-utilizing
cherished assets, or some other outrage- all perfectly legal.
There's a lot of books on the subject {Thom Hartman's, for
one}, but the history, the legal battles and precedents, and
the recent successfully stand by Humboldt County, CA (and
previously by several places in Pennsylvania} are outlined
very nicely at  http;//www.reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/   
   
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #91
95. Yes! And look how far they got in their destruction of California before they were stopped -- !!!!
Much of California's investments were in Enron, so we understand that there was a lot of working every side of the street. California Pension Funds, if I recall correctly?

And, I don't think it's covered in all the antics that were published re their Soprano like thinking and game-playing . . . but they got pretty far in actually bringing about great damage to California citizens, businesses and their finances.

From a higher perspective, was California a purposeful target --- ????

I don't know . . . maybe this would have happened in Texas -- ????



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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #91
96. Yes! And look how far they got in their destruction of California before they were stopped -- !!!!
Much of California's investments were in Enron, so we understand that there was a lot of working every side of the street. California Pension Funds, if I recall correctly?

And, I don't think it's covered in all the antics that were published re their Soprano like thinking and game-playing . . . but they got pretty far in actually bringing about great damage to California citizens, businesses and their finances.

From a higher perspective, was California a purposeful target --- ????

I don't know . . . maybe this would have happened in Texas -- ????



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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #91
105. Welcome to DU, to you, also!
Intriguing how we have so many new arrivals (or maybe just those with low post-counts) on this thread.

I still believe souls can be saved, and look at all the former GOPers who have now seen the light - just here!

Things like this give me hope.

PS - I'm writing this while keeping half an eye on the Nostradamus specials on The History Channel all evening (Sunday the 28th). Some chilling stuff.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #91
106. Oops, dupe.
Edited on Mon Oct-29-07 02:35 AM by calimary
self-delete. But the welcome itself stays intact.

:hi:
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #72
143. great post baby snooks - but I go a step further - there is a charade
going on - more truths to unravel. If I'm right - Republicans pretend to have a real enemy in Democrats, but they have Democrats that are Republicans. A game is being played with us, Barons who call the shots, allow pretentions of democracy to exist. They get their own to pass as and run as Democrats and allow them to win for the pretention of a democracy in progress.

While we learn through observation and wake up to the cold reality.

Something has allowed us to see the lights and moving toward full light of how it is happening.

Something has happened - they once moved slowly with caution, but have abandoned the precautions and are now blatantly moving toward our takeover and our sublimation. They have tossed out caution. Exxon doesn't care that we are incensed at their goal of war and manipulation and their blatant refusal to pay for clean up - to the hiding and stashing of what they do.

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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #143
154. The charade
It isn't so much a charade as it is a reality - the word Republican has as many meanings as Democrat in our society. Both parties have the full spectrum of both individual and group positions from ultra-liberal to ultra-conservative. The lines are not easily defined and are at times quite blurred. What really defines a Democrat, or a Republican, at this point?

The problem is that the leadership of both parties have begun to place the special interest above the public interest. The special interest of course is the corporate interest. We need to get back to "by the people, for the people."

We should all learn to take some time and look at the money trail and see who really is sending in the checks. Takes some time to do so but when you do, you learn some amazing things. People who support right-wing causes really should cause some alarm when they are contributing to the campaigns of left-wing candidates.

And the time to look at the money trail is before the primaries, not after. Party loyalty on our part doesn't serve any of us if the candidate's loyalty really is with the other party as seen through causes the other party supports in their platform which the major supporters of our candidate also support. How many of us would vote for a Democrat if Richard Scaife was a major supporter? I can cite an example of the opposite but the analogy is not there. Simply because the Democrats, so far at least, are not enemies of the American people. And that is what the Republicans have become. Enemies of the American people. Knowing what they do, and they know it, if Bush were able to run for a third time, they would all vote for him again. There is blind loyalty and there is deaf, dumb and blind loyalty. The latter is to be found in the Republican Party. Good Germans all.

But the problem behind the problem really is the money. As someone I knew once put it, some things are Democratic things, some things are Republican things, and some things are just money things.

Everything, it seems, has become a money thing in our political arenas.

We need, again, to get back to "by the people, for the people."
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
74. As a small business owner, I've been totally screwed
by the corporatist agenda.

Costs and burdens have been systematically shifted downwards, onto me, my family, and my employees.

The rising tide that supposedly lifts all boats treats most people, including small business owners, as driftwood.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #74
100. If it's any consolation...
If it's any consolation, even some of the corporations end up being devoured by someone else. Usually by a Rothschild. The obscene wealth we see in this country that is hidden in many cases behind corporations pales in comparison to the wealth of the Rothschilds which together represents a total estimated equity in various banks and corporations throughout the world in the trillions of dollars. The most conservative estimate is $2 trillion. Most believe it is actually ten times that. Or more.

He who has the most toys wins the game. The Rothschilds won the game a long time ago. The Rotschilds don't like competition and they like to buy the competition at the fire sales so to speak. Which may, in the end, be what causes our economy to collapse.

The Rothschilds do well by war. The French Revolution saw the birth of two things. The stirrings of democracy. And the birth of the House of Rothschild and what would later become known as venture capitalism. Which was in some ways the end of the stirrings of democracy.

The big fish eat the little fish. But eventually a bigger fish eats the big fish. If it's any consolation, the Bushes will probably be devoured along with their empire at some point. The Bushes and the neo-con artists believe they control the various multi-national corporations but in fact the banks do and the majority of the large banks are controlled by the Rothschilds and their money.

At one point, the sun never set on the British Empire. The sun still never sets on the House of Rothschild.

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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #100
108. "Venture capitalism." Maybe we should start calling it "VULTURE capitalism."
That's certainly what those bastards are. Human vultures.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #108
148. And always circling above...
And like vultures, they are always circling above. Waiting. Although when they get real hungry, the Rothschilds aren't above causing a little "murder and mayhem" on exchange floors so they can feed. They invented the art of market manipulation. And those lovely things called options. Now known as hedges. As in hedge funds. Betting a stock will go up. Or down. Sometimes making sure it goes up or down. Sometimes when one of them is about to die. If the stock is down, the taxes are less. And later, after the taxes are paid, the stock goes back up. After they have bought the stock back, of course.

They are the model for capitalism, the foundation of which is venture capitalism. Which is, in the end, vulture capitalism as you put it. But it is not the Rothschilds behind the Enrons. Or the Ken Lays. The Rothschilds do not believe in losing money. Anyone's money. Particularly their own. They do not know the word greed. Only the word money.

It is interesting to note that they also are quite philanthropic and some say they are also the model for noblesse obliege. The obligation. They do give back. Quite a bit of the art in our museums was theirs. Often bought for a museum instead of themselves.

And supposedly they have been the main benefactor of Israel from the beginning which of course puts them at odds with quite a few. Much of the anti-Semitism in the political arenas is really anti-Rothschild.

Few would admit it but they have become the "checks and balances" for the world economy. But better them than the Bushes.

And in that sense, the term vulture capitalism doesn't really apply to the Rothschilds. They are more like mother hens. Sitting on their eggs keeping them warm and safe until they hatch and "venture" out into the world. Royal Dutch Shell was one of their many eggs. De Beers another.

Although they avoid political arenas, remembering the basic premise of their patriarch, I suspect their heads are Republican but their hearts are Democratic. Their heart, at least, is in the right place.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #74
107. Eloquently put, bleever.
A shame you're going through that. The driftwood reference is sad and true.
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bjorkfan Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
76. What about socialism applied to religion?....
RWers should be equally against state churches, as in Europe, as well as faith-based funding.
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Malidictus Maximus Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
77. "Many people wonder how I could make a shift ,,,
from a person who wanted to privatize everything, to a person who takes leftist stances on pretty everything without stopping in the middle somewhere first....

Makes sense to me.

"The only thing in the middle of the road is yellow stripes and dead armadillos"
-Will Rogers
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #77
109. Good Will Rogers quote there. And Welcome to DU!
:hi:
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
78. You've hit the nail on the head squarely here. It echoes something I heard RFK Jr say...
In a speech about media reform on the show "Keynote" on FSTV. In illustrating the dangers of allowing these huge corporations controlling our news, he said that we couldn't trust corporations to act in the public interest - that in fact it is their fiduciary duty by law to act in the best interests of the corporation and its shareholders only. He says quite a bit more than that, of course, but you should see it yourself because the delivery is as good as the speech.

Here's a link. It's 29 minutes and well worth every one.

http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/index.php?action=deta...
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
79. Count me in with you. I made my conversion about 4 years ago.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
80. Small business people are a natural progressive constituency
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 10:20 PM by Spiffarino
Progressive governments:

Provide universal healthcare
Rid markets of monopolies
Tax progressively (less tax on small and medium incomes; more on large ones)
Build the middle class
Promote small business development (remember the SBA?)


Small businesses thrive within a progressive society. Today's Republican policies are killing small business as they drive more and more Americans into poverty. This is no accident, as you so astutely point out, MN Against Bush.

Edit: Oh yeah...K&R!
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #80
125. One we haven't taken advantage of nearly enough!
And this is the other side of the coin on this issue. We must stand strong against big corporate corruption and monopoly but we also need to help small businesses more. As it is, the smaller businesses are really hurting because the laws all favor the larger corporations. I believe if our Democratic nominee included a strong platform of promotion for SMALL business (less taxes, etc.) we would have a real winner. So far it seems we are clear in our opposition to monopolistic, greedy corporations, but we need to be much, much better at projecting the fact that we value and support small businesses. This part of the message is not getting through.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #125
173. The function of most big corps is to drown small competitors
Edited on Tue Oct-30-07 10:11 PM by Spiffarino
You see this happen every time another Wal-Mart goes up. Local businesses recede or go completely under. Same with chain restaurants, tire stores, office supply stores, etc., etc. Their focus is to devour or destroy weaker (a.k.a., smaller) competition to make themselves the only option.
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Basileus Basileon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
82. Brilliant and convincing. K&R.
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codjh9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
83. Thanks very much for your comments. Yeah, the problem with privatization is that
when you introduce the profit motive, there's less incentive to do something RIGHT. Can you say 'Blackwater'? Or even what they've done with (I believe) some national park rangers. Many other things. And I couldn't agree more with you on your statements re: Mom and Pop businesses vs. the biggies.
I do know a few (very few) people like you - who were on the right but saw the light (hmmm, could be a poem or song in there somewhere).

And thanks for someone else explaining what 'k&r' is - I can't stand the rampant use of acronyms that we're all somehow just supposed to telepathically understand.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
87. they're not even pro-corporation. they're pro-corporate DONORS
they don't even care about your run-of-the-mill small time corporation.

they only care about corporations to the extent that they can be political donors of consequence. for that, a corporation must be sizeable.


and it is this angle that completely undermines their ideology. for it is not "corporations" that make capitalism get its theoretical benefits, it is competition. so when republicans pick the biggest players in the industry and back them over the others, they are undermining exactly what makes capitalism work.

and this is vastly more damaging than the way democrats supposedly undermind capitalism, via taxes (as if republicans don't tax...).
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NoGodsNoMasters Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
98. It's a fault in they're fundamental logic.
First, the right tends to endorse a naively dogmatic interpretation of Adam Smith. That actors motivated by the desire for a better life, produce goods and services, helping society. Since this system depends on customers, the invisible hand should smack any business or businesses that act contrary to the general welfare. This is naively simplistic. It doesn't account for the collusion of government and big business, the effect of corporate propaganda on the psyche, and humanity's surprisingly high tolerence for injustice. Interestingly, while mouthing an almost religious devotion to free trade, republicans have a WILLFUL BLINDNESS as to how the massive amounts of federal and state subsidies are just as opposed to the concept of a free market as nationalized industry. They also fail to see big business's greatest weakness. Corporations are efficient and innovative, much more so than federal institutions, what they lack is MORALITY. The problem is corporations will only respond to legal incentives, not moral ones, for example, the only reason they don't use child labor is because it's illegal,..so they get a factory in Indonesia where it is. Abolishing capitalism is far too hasty, at this juncture, but Keynesian measures of placing corporations under democratic control is the key.
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iburl Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
101. We need to move the center out of the right
Good article. We need a leader who will show a clear and obvious difference to business as usual. Hillary is not the one to show people any real difference, she is a chickenhawk bought and paid for by the machine.
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Dewlso Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
102. I disagree on a couple points
I think your partially right. Not all right wingers are trusting in the Corporations though. In the rural south (where I live) its the Church that the rw's trust in. Most of the religious leaders down here are people's neighbors and friends outside the church. And as for your last statement about people realizing that they don't benefit from corporate power, well I think we saw in the last election that the masses are awake and making the change.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #102
110. Cool - three more! Welcome, NoGodsNoMasters, iburl, and Dewlso!
The more of us, the better!

:toast:
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
103. Good post. Ask your friends if the falling value of the US Dollar is Clinton's fault.
And if high gas prices are as well.

They should not be able to answer. Rationally at least. If the oil business is corporate, people should have zero trust left in corporations.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
104. So it's an inherent belief of theirs that Democracy is bad?
Edited on Mon Oct-29-07 02:03 AM by Lorien
If they want to put corporations in control, then they are fascists. Fascism is a system where an unelected governing body (corporations in this case) sees to it that it's totalitarian government ensures the welfare of itself (stockholders) at the expense of both society and the individual. Perhaps repugs should be asked to just watch "Enron, the smartest guys in the room" and judge for themselves whether an unelected government controlled by corporations is preferable to an elected government of, by, and for the people.
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 03:33 AM
Response to Original message
111. Don't forget Regan tought them spin.
Like their "Clean air act" actually loosens standards for clean air. not to mention the "patriot act" when American paitriotism is keeping the constituton intact. The right hates parts of the constitution sacred to The left, and thus tries to amend. Lots of unthinking people actually think that their are Activist judges." whe the truth is, the judge is only "activist "when he/she rules against the rights interests. like corporations.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 04:42 AM
Response to Original message
112. Then eliminate the corporation
It is merely a legal entity designed to limit the liability of the shareholders and management for their debts. In essence it is a subsidy for capitalists.
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
113. Strongly agree!
I especially loved this line:

We don't need to move to the "center" to win people over, we need to chip away at the foundations of the right-wing ideology.

:kick:
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
117. Dem's should be pro-business but make "A seperation of Corporations
and State" a pillar of the party.

It isn't that corporations are evil and need to be destroyed (ala Nader), but that they have WAY WAY too much power and say in policy. The church's in Europe used to be the same way, one of the major reasons we got the separation of church and state wording in the Constitution.

We need a separation of Corporations and state now.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
118. Excellent post!
And gladly recommended it for the 127th time. :-)
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meowomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
122. How can anyone trust a corporation?
How could unbridled capitalism ever be good for the common person ? Greed is never good. Capitalism is very unchristian.
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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
123. Reframe it - Corporatiism
You raised excellent points! Thanks.
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tincanguy Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
124. Yacht Sales are UP!
This is always a good indicator that Corps are pleased with themselves.

Yacht Sales are up in Orange County
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
126. Best, most practical post this year. The key is also stockholders.
Edited on Mon Oct-29-07 09:18 AM by higher class
Their needs to be a paper, article, thesis, book, or documentary that LISTS all the ways the corporations are bringing this country down and who is doing it.

Their avoidance of accountability.

Tax evasion.
Profit hiding islands.
Out-sourcing.
Moving factories.
Selling our technology.
Trading our technology.
Giving away our technology.
Non-accountability in all its forms in relation to laws and courts.
Writing their laws through their lobbyists in coersion with Congress.
Legals exemptions and limits.

This country is doomed if this isn't exposed and understood and if we keep voting in the people who faciliatate it.

The worst form of patriot is a power seller of politics - buying donations and votes by lying down for negotiations with corporations, then standing up to sign and vote.

There is a 100 year old movement and it is either at its pinnacle before its exposure or we are doomed to be their serfs. Something went down during the Nixon Kissinger Hammer era - they made some deals with the Chinese if not more and whatever it was took seed and our reversal of growth reversed. All the good works and labor of our immigrant ancestors started to be owned by a few. Native Americans have seen it all. We are not a great country unless the people rule.

Think Cheney living in Dubai with Halliburton if his heart keeps ticking. No memos, no library, was born, stole, destroyed, maneuvered, killed, lied and then moved to Dubai to escape prosecution. Cheney, the CEO and the CEO's best friend in making profits from war. This is who the corporations linked up with.

Please where is the definitive work on how the corporations screw us. Lists, we need lists. And the footnotes. Before it's too late.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #126
144. There is an excellent work published on exactly this
The Shock Doctrine -- Naomi Klein
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Felix Mala Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
129. They say a liberal is a conservative who's never been mugged.
Edited on Mon Oct-29-07 08:49 AM by Feles Mala
I say a conservative is a liberal who's never been raped. Once you get a view of how the system treats its victims, you can never believe right wing lies again.

If you're 25 and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're 45 and you're not a liberal, you have no guts.



I know a story of a woman who started listening to Rush Limbaugh and got excited about participating in politics for the first time. She even talked a friend into listening who became hooked, too. One day, Wal-Mart announced they were tearing up a verdant part of town for a store. This woman joined many in town to oppose it. However, the friend she turned onto Rush ended up on the other side and cheered the inevitable corporate victory on the day the earth movers moved in. The woman was shocked. She thought the whole reason for her empowerment was to have a say in her world, not to pave the way for coporations and urban sprawl. Funny, it seems everything Rush had trained her to think was for the ultimate benefit mega corporations.
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BrklynLib at work Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
130. Isn't corporatocracy the same as Fascism? That is what we are headed for here..if no one can stop it
Edited on Mon Oct-29-07 09:07 AM by BrklynLib at work
It is so very sad to think that there are still so many non-corporate millionaires out there who believe that corprations have the best interests of the people at heart.The only reason most of them do anything charitable or socially redeemable is that they are either getting a tax break, or a rezoning permit.

The corporate bottom line and the stockholders are ALL they care about.

If only there was a way to change the law and take "personhood" away from the corporations... Now THAT would be a victory!
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
136. I could have written this as I have walked in your shoes and taken the same journey
Undergrad in Economics, formerly a champion of Friedman policies (Reaganomics).

There is no middle ground.

I have since moved to the left of left and am a true Keynesian.

I recommend Naomi Klein's book, The Shock Doctrine. As your eyes are already open, this will just cement the thoughts you have already expressed with historical background on why you are correct.
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chemp Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
139. That is fiscal conservative but ...
what about the insane positions held by the social conservative.

That is another HUGE battle needed to be waged. Those that say screw the poor are bad enough. The haters of Hispanics, blacks, Jews, Catholics, atheists, Muslims, Gays, women, et al. are the real enemy.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
141. Thank you for saying this
I get annoyed whenever corps put forth a huge effort to convince us that we benefit from their existence, when the opposite is true.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
145. The Reagan Revolution was built on demonizing the poor & middle class and lionizing big corporations
Edited on Mon Oct-29-07 10:27 AM by Oregonian
"Welfare Queens," anyone?

We must roll that paradigm over to make ol' Ronnie roll over in his grave.
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maxkeiser Donating Member (404 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
146. karmaBanque dot com
the way to bleed the corporations dry has been figured out by karmabanque.com
the only thing missing is the true will to decapitalize the corporate occupiers
...presumably because most americans have not yet experienced their 1938 November 9, Kristalnach moment yet..
but they will...
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #146
171. that's a scary thought

Kristallnacht, also known as Reichskristallnacht, Pogromnacht, Crystal Night and the Night of Broken Glass, was a pogrom<1> against Jews throughout Germany and parts of Austria on November 9November 10, 1938.

Jewish homes were ransacked in numerous German cities along with 8,000 Jewish shops, towns and villages,<2> as civilians and SA stormtroopers destroyed buildings with sledgehammers, leaving the streets covered in smashed windows the origin of the name "Night of Broken Glass." Jews were beaten to death; 30,000 Jewish men were taken to concentration camps; and 1,668 synagogues ransacked with 267 set on fire.

The Times of London wrote of the violence: "no foreign propagandist bent upon blackening Germany before the world could outdo the tale of burnings and beatings, of blackguardly assaults on defenceless and innocent people, which disgraced that country yesterday."<3>

more...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
149. Good points. Back in the old days (pre-outsourcing),
businesses would invest in themselves to create more American jobs and better products and, generally, promote the greatness that was America. Now they have one goal: money. Large, overflowing, piles of money. Forget the jobs, forget the quality of the products, hello Cayman Islands, it all goes to the executives. An old guy called the Washington Journal this morning and said his 96 year old mother had recently died and she had told him only two kinds of people vote Republican: the rich and the stupid. Words of wisdom.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
150. Where I come from "leftist" is generally used as a slur against
progressives/liberals. It's something I'm a bit prickly about. Doesn't mean that's how you intended it, but it's sort of like calling someone "pro-abortion" rather than "pro-choice".

You have a very good point about the corporations, BTW. All they care about is increasing quarterly profits. Period. And the corporate officers have the game rigged so they take home most the goodies and even the shareholders get shafted.
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bearfan454 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
153. Bravo !
Very well said.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
155. K & R
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
156. The Right Wing Does a Bait-and-Switch
by extolling the virtues of small business, then supporting policies benefitting large corporations. They are not the same thing.

The wish list of large coporations is full of things that either do not affect small businesses or are actively hostile to them. The ground rules have to be set and maintained by government in order to ensure a level playing field.
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ryanus Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
157. trust in corporations? huh?
That's not been my experience. It's more about individualism. The idea that individual success should not be fettered, therefore collective action (unions, governments) is more often what the weak do to compensate for not being as successful. And successful companies are often the result of successful people, so maybe that's why you thought the way you did about corporations.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
159. Outstanding post MN Against Bush!
:applause:
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
162. K+R. Thank you for such an excellent post! n/t
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FREEWILL56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
166. Do you mean to say you didn't recognize that the republicon party
really is about fascism? Well I'm not going to chastise you for it as you have seen the error of your ways. The best thing you can do would not to put that here, but to go to your former republicon buddies and explain to them what you now know. You can see that it isn't here that needs convinced so much unless you are a hilarity supporter.
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Doc Martin Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
169. Excellent!!! Thanks
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