The real difference between NOLA and San Diego

[Elspeth]

The real difference is that the people in San Diego are expected to stay and rebuild and the people in NOLA were, I believe, targeted for removal.

The attitude towards San Diego evacuees is the typical one we usually have for people displaced by some kind of natural disaster. We assume that they will stay in the area and rebuild, and will probably need help to do so. All levels of government also assume this.

The attitude of the White House toward the NOLA evacuees, however, was a shocking and vicious change from the status quo. That is why the journalists were shocked, America was shocked and the world was shocked.

To see the NOLA evacuees MOVED OUT OF THE STATE so quickly and not helped to return to their homes meant that the current administration did not see then as evacuees at all. The use of the word "refugee" was deliberate: evacuees return to their homes; refugees leave their home for somewhere else.

NOLA was a Federal Crime involving Federal levees which broke on Monday night after the hurricane. The Feds did NOT inform the citizens and let them die or struggle to escape, in some kind of sick Darwinian fascist mind game.

The plans to move these people were probably in place before the hurricane hit. The MSM started calling them refugees almost immediately, distancing their plight from the general public and getting people used to the idea that they would be moved.

[acmavm]

1. You're damn right. The Feds never intended to allow the poor

and the blacks to return to their homes. NEVER.

That in itself is a crime against humanity.

[Elspeth]

5. Yes. It's the difference between a real rescue effort and a Federal crime

Though FEMA is STILL shit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Potrero and Ramona are full of non rich and brown people

they are allowed to go home

So that is not a valid judgement

I wish people informed themselves... not everybody in Kalifoornia is rich and living wild on the hog

[acmavm]

64. What in the world are you talking about??? I was talking about the

black and poor in New Orleans and how they were treated.

[Elspeth]

84. And Nadin is talking about the working class brown people in Jamul and other areas

who, hopefully, will have their property reimbursed in the same way that the Rancho Bernardo middle and upper middle class will.

[iamthebandfanman]

2. thats the only difference ?

cause all i see when i look at the fires are peoples BMWs and Mercedes burnt up in their driveways....
i think they are completely different on EVERY level.

[Elspeth]

6. No, and I didn't claim it was. It's a basic real difference which sets off a chain of differences

Also, the MSM is not showing you most people, only the more affluent ones. Rancho Bernardo is upscale. But Jamul, Ramona, and most of the other areas to the East are not. Most of my friends who evacuated have older cars and live paycheck to paycheck. And they are apartment dwellers like myself, not homeowners.

I think the MSM likes to fan the flames of the class war. Or show burned out Mercedes.

[BrklynLib at work]

13. Excellent point about the media...and their focus.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. That is also where they are being allowed in

Nobody has gone really, gone back to Ramona or Potrero and damn that is what an hour from where i seat?

[rudy23]

66. The media also ignored the rich from New Orleans--many Mercedes went underwater in Lakeview

also in the surrounding parishes, many rich people lost their homes in Katrina.

One of the biggest secrets about Katrina is how bad it f*cked the middle class. There are middle class families who are still living like refugees over two years after the fact.

[NOLALady]

81. Right.

"One of the biggest secrets about Katrina is how bad it f*cked the middle class"

Also, New Orleans had a large black middle class, but you wouldn't know it from the MSM.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. That is what the media is choosing to show you

if they showed you Ramona, Potrero and other outlying communitites you would see beat up trucsk, and people living on the edge

Let the media create the image for you

[Elspeth]

85. Yes, this is 100% true. LOCAL news is covering Ramona and Jamul but CNNFOXMSNBC is only showing

wealthier areas. They are lazy and don't know the geography of the city. They would much rather go to Qualcomm (which they know) downtown than go out to Ramona, which they don't know. They're lazy and the nation is getting a misrepresentation of our area.

[fishnfla]

3. Until the levees wrere fixed, I dunno if I'd go back to NOLA

I think thats one thing that kept alot of businesses from coming back

[Taverner]

4. Exactly

I'm not sure if the levees were blown up or not - but in either case the flooding was damned convenient.

Shit, this whole administration had a whole lot of convenient things happen.

[webmatters]

7. Not really..

A very important difference is California routinely deals with brush fires, New Orleans never dealt with a catastrophic levee break.

As far as FEMA's reaction, the major difference is the Southern California fires happened long after the levee breaks in New Orleans. There were many lessons learned, and that showed in the response to the brush fires. However, even at that, the brushfires didn't inflict anywhere near the devastation New Orleans faced by the flooding.

However, as your thread post dictates, anyone can paint reality whichever way they like and blame whomever if it makes them feel better.

[Elspeth]

9. FEMA hasn't learned any lessons

I've been watching their spokeperson on TV. Complete waste.

[webmatters]

44. I'm sure it is

I'm sure it was a waste of time.

People who go asking the federal government for handouts don't care about speeches - they just want the handout.

But, really how does that change the two different degrees of devestation between New Orlean's flooding and Southern California's brushfires?

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. The lessons here were from the CEDAR fire not

NOLA.

Those reverse 911 calls, those are straight from CEDAR

[Bitwit1234]

8. It got old Bobby boy elected in Lousiana didn't it.

[EFerrari]

10. Exactly. n/t

[lame54]

11. that's why blackwater is in there

to guard the homes and prevent people from returning to them
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Nnph3zkHNw

[BrklynLib at work]

12. I totally agree with you. It was a premeditated relocation of a particular population.

[slackmaster]

16. I don't see how that kind of plan would make any sense to anyone

The people of NOLA weren't wiped out, just moved around. More importantly, nobody has moved in to take their place.

Please explain why what you're saying isn't a paranoid fantasy.

[Sal Minella]

25. "Refugees" implies people who were DRIVEN out. "Evacuees" implies people who left on their own.

The collective "Democratness" of much of New Orleans was fatally diluted by dispersing the people into red states.

[slackmaster]

27. The difference between a refugee and an evacuee is simpler than that

Evacuees have a place to return to after the crisis is over. Refugees do not. Large numbers of homes in NO were rendered uninhabitable by water damage. You just can't have people move back into that kind of mess without creating a huge public health emergency.

[Elspeth]

74. Refugee is NOT being used in San Diego for those who houses have burned/are uninhabitable

They are still being called "evacuees" or "victims of the fire". This is because they will be remaining in the area and rebuilding.

Refugee is usually used politically, as in a war refugee. It implies seeking refuge or moving to a safer place.

In NOLA, there was no reason why a lot of those folks couldn't be put up in hotels or motels above the Lake while they were rebuilding their homes. The Fed could have helped with the rebuilding as could have other agencies at the local and state levels.

[BrklynLib at work]

45. it's not as if no one was warning them...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article562412.ece

<snip>
Below is a passage from the Houston Chronicle in 2001, which quoted the Federal Emergency Management Agency on the three likeliest potential disasters to threaten America. They were: an earthquake in San Francisco, a terrorist attack in New York City (predicted before 9/11), and a hurricane hitting New Orleans.

Read this prophetic passage and weep: “The New Orleans hurricane scenario may be the deadliest of all. In the face of an approaching storm, scientists say, the city’s less-than-adequate evacuation routes would strand 250,000 people or more, and probably kill one of 10 left behind as the city drowned under 20ft of water.

<snip>
More politically explosive, the Bush administration has slashed the budget for rebuilding the levees. More than a year ago, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana, told the New Orleans Times-Picayune: “It appears that the money has been moved in the president’s budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that’s the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can’t be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us.”

It’s still unclear whether even with higher levels of funding the levees would have been strong enough to withstand Katrina in time. The Army Corps of Engineers has backed the president and said that the levees were built for only a category three hurricane and were in satisfactory shape. But levees need constant maintenance and an agency with a one-year budget cut of $71m might have skimped. The connection between shifting funds to fight wars abroad rather than to defend against calamity at home is a politically explosive one. As one Louisianan said: “You can do everything for other countries, but you can’t do nothing for your own people. You can go overseas with the military, but you can’t get them down here.”

To make matters worse, thousands of Louisianan National Guardsmen, who might have been best able to maintain order, are deployed in the deserts of Iraq, in a war that is increasingly unpopular. Again: it’s hard to know if this really would have made a huge amount of difference, but the argument has the force of a category five political storm.
<snip>

[BrklynLib at work]

41. Hurricane Protection Budget Cuts Exact a Big Price - Here was the plan

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/8/30/212451/290

For the first time in 37 years, federal budget cuts have all but stopped major work on the New Orleans area's east bank hurricane levees, a complex network of concrete walls, metal gates and giant earthen berms that won't be finished for at least another decade.

"I guess people look around and think there's a complete system in place, that we're just out here trying to put icing on the cake," said Mervin Morehiser, who manages the "Lake Pontchartrain and vicinity" levee project for the Army Corps of Engineers. "And we aren't saying that the sky is falling, but people should know that this is a work in progress, and there's more important work yet to do before there is a complete system in place."

...

"I can't tell you exactly what that could mean this hurricane season if we get a major storm," Naomi said. "It would depend on the path and speed of the storm, the angle that it hits us.

"But I can tell you that we would be better off if the levees were raised, . . . and I think it's important and only fair that those people who live behind the levee know the status of these projects."

...

The Bush administration's proposed fiscal 2005 budget includes only $3.9 million for the east bank hurricane project. Congress likely will increase that amount, although last year it bumped up the administration's $3 million proposal only to $5.5 million.

"I needed $11 million this year, and I got $5.5 million," Naomi said. "I need $22.5 million next year to do everything that needs doing, and the first $4.5 million of that will go to pay four contractors who couldn't get paid this year."

...

The challenge now, said emergency management chiefs Walter Maestri in Jefferson Parish and Terry Tullier in New Orleans, is for southeast Louisiana somehow to persuade those who control federal spending that protection from major storms and flooding are matters of homeland security.

"It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay," Maestri said. "Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

...

Levee-raising is only part of the flood-related work that has stopped since the federal government began reducing Corps of Engineers appropriations in 2001, as more money was diverted to homeland security, the fight against terrorism and the war in Iraq.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Plans were offered includimg those by the International Red Cross

who are used to help local populations rebuild, using local materials

There was a problem with that plan... well several

For starters it didn't include Halliburton

[slackmaster]

14. You're overlooking some obvious differences in the situation

The city and county of San Diego have remained largely functional throughout the firestorm. NOLA was completely knocked out of action.

We had many good places, locally, to which people could be evacuated. NOLA did not. And once people had moved to evacuation centers, it wasn't difficult for volunteers and relief workers to bring in supplies.

It took weeks just to pump out the water in NOLA, and the homes of most evacuees were uninhabitable. Most San Diego area evacuees have already returned to their homes, which have bad air and smoke damage but are safe to move into.

The Feds did NOT inform the citizens and let them die or struggle to escape, in some kind of sick Darwinian fascist mind game.

My recollection is that many people in NOLA ignored or were unable to comply with a mandatory evacuation order by the city, BEFORE the storm hit. About half the people here who got evacuation orders got reverse-911 calls, and complied with them.

Remember, it had been only four years since our previous round of major October wildfires. Plus I believe a lot of people in this area maintain some level of disaster preparedness because of the constant threat of earthquake. The few people I know who don't maintain at least a supply of drinking water are either in denial or convinced that God will take care of them.

[Bluerthanblue]

35. there is another very significant difference- the people in NOLA who tried

to leave- were met with guard dogs and armed men.

How many people died waiting for the busses that never came?

Why was help turned back leaving people desperate for drinking water, food, and necessities?
Why were people who brought help turned back?
Why did help come so late, and so disorganizedly?

Perino repeatedly says that you can't compare NOLA and SOCAL. She refuses to admit the unbelievable mistakes and blunders of those who suffered and died in Katrina, are part of the reason that many are not going through much the same in Cal.

The feds DID let the people of NOLA and surrounding areas die-

I am so relieved the people of Cal. didn't have to suffer a similar fate- but I do believe this is in part as a result of the suffering endured by those on the Gulf Coast.

peace~

[Elspeth]

75. I have covered these differences extensively in other threads. No one bothered to read them

Including you. But you'll read this one. That's why I posted it.

Please see my Fire vs Flood repost later in this thread.

[DemBones DemBones]

15. I agree that there was a deliberate effort to move poor blacks

far away from New Orleans and it is sickening. I don't know why Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco allowed that to happen or why they waited so late to tell people to evacuate the city or why they didn't use those school buses.

At the same time, I don't want people in the San Diego area to burn in their houses and I'm glad government is better organized there. I'm not going to hate them for being better taken care of than the people of New Orleans were.

We need all states to have the resources that California has. And we need for all New Orleanians who want to return to be allowed to do so. It's insane that Blackwater troops still keep people out of their homes in the Ninth Ward. I wonder if any group is working to change that?

[slackmaster]

17. WHY would someone want to do that?

What would be the motivation for anyone to break up what basically amounted to a convenient black slum?

[DemBones DemBones]

18. Gentrification. nt

[slackmaster]

19. Let me know when that starts happening

Right now NOLA is a whole lot of empty, and nobody seems to be rushing in to take over the poorest neighborhoods (which also happen to be located at the most flood-prone places).

And consider that every action has an equal and opposite reaction: If NOLA is being gentrified, other places like Houston are being de-gentrified by an influx of poor people.

[Bluerthanblue]

37. has the govt given the NOLA homeowners

who had no insurance the same $28,800 each that it is promising those who have lost their homes due to the wildfires?

How many people died in NOLA Slackmaster?

Do YOU know?

Does America really know- or worse yet, do they (we) really care?

[Elspeth]

70. The poor were separated into different small groups which were sent to different states

including Utah and Texas. The "influx" was kept small and the voting power diluted.

[WilliamPitt]

22. Democratic Governors...elected by Dem-voting Black NOLA voters.

Governors control statewide patronage; control voting systems (usually); control budgets via veto power; and appoint Senators/Reps to Congress if an absence arises.

Etc.

Reason enough.

[slackmaster]

23. Sure, but all those displaced poor Dem-voting black people had to go somewhere

A lot of them are still in East Texas, where they are sure to tip the balance of things there.

I see no net gain for the alleged perpetrators of this supposed conspiracy. The perception of incompetence of the federal government has surely done them more harm than relocating a bunch of poor black people will do them good.

[WilliamPitt]

26. A voting bloc in one city = power

A voting bloc scattered into five+ states, without ability to vote in any state besides LA...i.e. thay can't vote in Texas, or MS, or the fucking moon. They're registered in LA, period.

P.S. Katrina will hurt them for three elections, maybe five max. But in 15 years, a body of hard-GOP super-cash voters will have re-populated NOLA with billions of dollars in development, private schools, campaign-funding orgs, offshore drilling (ratified by new-bought Governors and state legislatures) and subsequent revenues, control of the Mississippi and her shipping, etc.

...and they'll have cleaned out all the local politicians (even the dirty ones) who held the line against the erasure of whatever remaining poor-empowering standards are still remaining on the books.

The Bush goons won the world with Houston money. One whole city, and a lot of money, and a passage of time...well...we've seen what can be done.

Every party needs a base for the base.

Amen.

[slackmaster]

29. Texas does have one of the strictest residency requirements for voter registration

But even so it's still only 30 days.

[WilliamPitt]

30. TX, MS, AL, GA, MA, NY, OK, etc.

How are you gonna vote if you don't get a ballot...or know who's on the ballot...or know when election day is?

NOLA is supposed to make sure thousands upon thousands of refugees who were scattered like dandelion seeds across America are gonna get ballots, names, addresses for where to send in their votes, etc?????

Bush & Co. are going to do this?

Is this really hard to grasp? They blew up a strong voting bloc, one of the last in the South. Now, it's seamlessly RED from the TX border of New Mexico all the way up to W. VA.

HOLD WHAT YOU GOT is the last law of warfare. They're holding, and building internally. Because they can.

How can the displaced NOLA folks actually cast a vote?

They can't. For who? Where? How? A voter is in Chicago, and the NOLA SecState Absentee Ballot Officer died in the flood, and the office got washed away, so the voter is in Chicago, no ballot, no help...

Check. Mate.

[slackmaster]

34. The displaced NOLA folks eventually have to shit or get off the pot

Get back to NOLA and vote, or decide they don't live in NOLA any more and register to vote wherever they are.

I understand very well that one effect of this large human migration is to break up a traditionally reliable Democratic voting bloc, but it seems people are trying awfully hard to shoe-horn in a conspiracy to do that.

The situation in NOLA today looks to me like the result of many decades of poor stewardship of the infrastructure, capped off by a stunning level of incompetence at all levels of government at the time a deadly hurricane struck.

[WilliamPitt]

36. Oh Jesus...

Get back to NOLA and vote, or decide they don't live in NOLA any more and register to vote wherever they are.

Fucking easy for you to say. That sentence betrays a staggering level of ignorance on a whole slew of levels. Honestly, I don't have time to explain it all.

As for any conspiracy, it's easy. Bush cut more than $70 million from the LA Army Corps of Engineers budget, out of one ACOE annual budget, their 2004 budget to be precise.

Hold back an ocean for me...and now do it with more than $70 million ripped from your budget.

(guess what that paid for)

...and now do it with a Cat-5 storm up your ass.

Conspiracy? Simple.

NOLA isn't one of their cities. So they took the money.

Conspiracy?

Nah.

Just plain old venal politics. Older than Jesus' nails.

[Bluerthanblue]

55. word eom

[NorthernSpy]

52. .

:(

[sandnsea]

38. *sigh*

In the south, the perception of incompetence of the government is GOOD because that means another opportunity to move churches and corporations into the slots that government used to fill. It was not an accident that Walmart got in and FEMA didn't.

And moving those "poor black people" out, and rebuilding NOLA without them, will give white southerners another opportunity to blame all their problems on black people. "Look how safe and beautiful it is since Katrina".

And then watch the property values soar - and Holland style flood control installed.

It's not a conspiracy. It's "just business".

[NorthernSpy]

57. my aunt's still trying to get a loan to rebuild on one of her properties in NOLA

She's the one who was missing for days after the storm hit, because she wouldn't leave while my uncle was still in the hospital.

Right now, she's living in one of our family's properties, but she really wants to go back to New Orleans. At first she didn't, but now she does. I imagine a lot people feel the same way.

And mind you, she didn't live in the 9th Ward. And she has property and savings. Think how hard it is for the poor, black 9th-Warders to put their lives back together under these circumstances.

And moving those "poor black people" out, and rebuilding NOLA without them, will give white southerners another opportunity to blame all their problems on black people. "Look how safe and beautiful it is since Katrina".

Yeah, early on, that was the dream. But the irony is that with FEWER blacks around, New Orleans' murder rate promptly skyrocketed, and everyone is now terrified of the place. Disneyfication looks to be a long way off.

[sandnsea]

60. I think they'll wait

I've been burned out and left with nothing. I know how hard it is. If I know, the developers know. They're biding their time, stirring political pots, preventing permanent solutions, etc. And now with this mortgage crisis, I imagine it's even harder for the working people and better for the wealthy developers.

[Bluerthanblue]

42. the perps gained something you are

perpetuating in many of your responses here-

They were able to spread the concept that those who were in reality VICTIMS of Katrina, and our country's failed response
were instead:


Lazy
Inept
Irresponsible
Unlawful
Unworthy
Deserving of their fate
Unwanted by the rest of society

If you can't see it Slackmaster, it may be because you have bought the meme that says "they were warned"- "they could have left"- "they had plenty of notice"- "they are choosing not to go back!-"

Civil rights in this nation have taken a big step backwards under this administration.

[in_cog_ni_to]

20. I couldn't agree more! It was their "Clean up NOLA" plan. I think they plan

to make NOLA the Gulf Coast Las Vegas. Huge resorts, Gambling boats, multi-million dollar condominium complexes....AFTER they build the world's BEST levee system, of course.:( There IS definitely some SINISTER business going on within this administration in regards to NOLA.

[sandnsea]

21. One group expects government to work for them

the other doesn't. And because they didn't, it was easy for them to become victims of a displacement strategy. However, some of them were warned, they just refused to believe it was going to happen.

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. No. Many of them had no way to leave. If you have no car and no $$$$$$, what are you suppose to do?

Some who stayed also said they had elderly disabled parents to take care of and they couldn't leave. Please don't blame the victims.

[sandnsea]

32. After that

I heard repeatedly that government should just get out of the way and let the people take care of it because government can't solve anything anyway.

I'm not blaming the victims who were caught in the immediate aftermath and have been continual victims ever since. I'm blaming the victimizers for spewing this anti-government horseshit.

[DemBones DemBones]

31. You're kidding, right? The last time I heard this was from Republicans. nt

[sandnsea]

33. Really? Republicans say government is supposed to work for people?

Never heard that one before.

[Bluerthanblue]

43. are you serious? do you really believe this?

I'm so disapointed to hear this from you.

Am I mis-understanding your words???

[sandnsea]

49. You don't see the correlation?

People who expect government to work, get a government that works.

People whose entire culture is based on hatred of government, end up with a government that fails them.

What's to be disappointed about? It's the basic problem of poor red districts all over the country.

[Bluerthanblue]

53. you are saying that it is a self fulfilling prophesy?

if I understand you?

this statement is confusing to me-


"I heard repeatedly that government should just get out of the way and let the people take care of it because government can't solve anything anyway.

I'm not blaming the victims who were caught in the immediate aftermath and have been continual victims ever since. I'm blaming the victimizers for spewing this anti-government horseshit."

Who are those who said the Govt- should just get out of the way????

Who are you blaming???

Should we not take care of our own???- Should we not take care of anyone who is in need if we have the means to do so?

If we aren't willing to do that who are we?


what a weary weary world.

:shrug:

[sandnsea]

61. I don't think you're confused at all

and I really am not in the mood to play word games. You want to "take care of your own", and let everybody else go to hell, that's your choice. Don't expect the government safety net to be there when that's the attitude of your culture.

[Bluerthanblue]

69. in MY 'culture'-

"taking care of my own" means taking care of everyone.

The 'government' is supposed to be made up of all of us-

And there for all of us. I'm not lookin to play word games either- and I AM confused by what you appear to be saying.

It doesn't make sense to me. Can you spell it out in simple straight forward terms?

[LynneSin]

28. Louisiana is one of those 'Purple States'

Where both parties tend to have success throughout the state. The reason that LA is 'purple' is enough democrats registered in NOLA to help balance out the state. You have the same thing in Pennsylvania - remove Philly & Pittsburgh and PA would be raging red-state.

[NOLALady]

80. I don't know.

New Orleans kept this SOB balanced. I think we are slowly turning blood red now.

[RB TexLa]

39. And Americans actually care about people in California as opposed to Louisiana

[Bluerthanblue]

56. I care about both- and

I've never been to either place.

but i hear you.

What is wrong with us????


:(

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. WRONG, the people care, even some folks in the Federal

Government

But when you practice disaster capitalism...

Oh never mind

[tabasco]

40. Katrina affected a much larger geographical area too.

A large number of Katrina victims were unable to return home, like you said.

The fire victims are able to return home today and start rebuilding.

It is not a good comparison between the two events but the corporate media wants to make Ahhnold look like a hero while blaming / demonizing the Louisiana state leadership.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. The geographical area was huge here, but the difference is

that you can go home

Now watch them rainstorms in the winter... and flash floods

;-)

This is not over... insofar as nature playing games

And any disaster has a recovery period (or should have a recovery period) of 18-24 months, I don't expect this to be over in that timeline for the poor affected in this county, and even many of the middle classes.

Watch that ball.

This is disaster capitalism... and they will practice the same things they did in NOLA, such as recovery contracts to budies

I hope the governor holds fast on that and tells them where to stuff it

But I used to do this... and no disaster is over after the acute phase... and once the cameras move away, is when the fun really starts

[Elspeth]

86. Nadin, we really need to keep people updated on the royal screwing the insurance industry will give

the victims of SD.

People need to know what is happening. But doubtless, there will be more pretty/ugly/shiny pictures that people will be staring at on their TV screens.

[GumboYaYa]

58. There was one road out of New Orleans that was passable after Katrina.

You could walk across the Ceresecent City connection get out of New orleans and on the way to safety It isn't a far walk from the Convention Center where thousands of people were stuck with no food and water for days. Police blockaded the bridge so that people could not get out of New Orleans. http://blog.nola.com/times-picayune/2007/09/bridge_blockade_after_katrina.html

People did not get out until the buses showed up and shipped them out.

[EFerrari]

59. I'll never forget that blockade as long as I live.

Good to see you posting, GumboYaYa.

[GumboYaYa]

63. Thanks for the greeting.

I haven't been around much lately. I have a new project that just has me swamped.

I hope all is well with you. I am going to be in Berkeley on Monday next week. Will you be around?

[NOLALady]

79. The citizens were also blocked at gunpoint

from leaving the shelters.

[ladjf]

62. There must be millions of Americans who know full well the

extent of criminality by the Bush administration. Yet, no one seems to have the answer as to how they can be removed from office.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

67. THIS IS THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX

GOTTA SAVE HIS GUNNERS.

[Anita Garcia]

68. Nail meet head

You nailed it!
Thanks for saying what needs to be said.
I am worried for those evacuated this week.
I am still worried for those evacuated over two years ago.

[KharmaTrain]

71. Flood Vs. Fire...

When the waters rose across NOLA that Tuesday morning, it rose everywhere at once. Within hours thousands had several feet of water in their homes an rising fast. Many of these people felt they had ridden out Katrina...which they did...and had ZERO warning about the breeches in the levys that caused the real flooding. Even if they did get warning, the roads were already flooded so they were trapped in a living hell. For thousands, the only place to go was through the roof...many thousands weren't that fortunate.

In San Diego, the fires kicked up rapidly, but nowhere were as many people both endangered and trapped like they were in NOLA. People could evacuate as the situation got worse and the destruction, while bad, was localized.

Lastly, communications went south with Katrina...the storm itself knocked out most two-way radio systems and there was precious communications going on in those critical hours after the storm. San Diego has an elaborate communications system that has helped in both pinpointing fires and coordinating the effort to fight them and move people out of the way.

Sorry, no tin foil hat going on here. Let's see how FEMA handles the claims and needs of those in the burned areas. The tragedy of New Orleans began with the flood...trying to reclaim lives...let's see if those in similar circumstances in San Diego meet the same fate...if we'll see house trailers all over Rancho Bernardo in six months or a year.

Different tragedies, different people, different circumstances. The only thing that IMHO is constant between the two disasters is a kleptocracy in Washington that will attempt to find profit in this disaster like they have in NOLA.

[Elspeth]

72. No need for tin foil hat

I covered the differences of fire vs flood extensively in another thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2128568&mesg_id=2133312

But the crucial difference on the part of the Fed is the attitude towards the displaced. No tin foil hat necessary there either.

This is why we miss the obvious: because so many people call the obvious "tin foil".

[Elspeth]

73. Re-post: Fire Vs Flood

*Fires move with the wind and, like tornadoes, they leave some places utterly destroyed (structures and infrastructure) and others intact.

*Fires can be raging in one town and be stopped from spreading too far away, provided we have the right equipment.

*Fire spread can be predicted in enough time to get people evacuated. Self evacuation (in cars) is possible, and most Southern Californians of all economic levels (often because of bad mass transport) usually have cars.


But in New Orleans, you had flooding by man-made levees breaking

*NOLA was not really about hurricanes, because Katrina itself did relatively little initial damage as it went through. Remember, everyone in NOLA thought they had "dodged a bullet" as the hurricane eye moved to the eastern border of LA and MI. Actually, the northeastern suburbs (like Slidel) got much more clobbered than the city proper.

NOLA's problem was that the man-made levees broke Monday night, and NO ONE informed the people until it was too late. (The Monday night time came from CNN, despite what the Chimp claims.) NOLA was a failure of the Federal Government, who BUILT those levees, to inform its citizens that their lives were in danger. NOLA was not a natural disaster: it was a Federal Crime. Authorities knew Monday night. I know I knew Monday night: I was watching CNN. (Check Greg Palast for some info on this.)


With a man-made levee breaking,

* Huge amounts of flooding takes place in a short time in a place that can ill afford flooding.

* If people are not evacuated early, they are trapped. There is no question of "outracing" a deluge of flood water in your car. Fires, on the other hand, can be (to a certain extent) "outraced". One Ranch Bernardo neighborhood was literally almost on fire when the police screamed out of the bullhorns to get people out. (The open field behind the neighborhood had burned clear up to the backyards of the houses during the night.) These RB residents were literally jumping out of bed and outracing the flames as they were evacuating. If that had been a deluge of flood water, there would have been no chance to race your car through it. The flood would have swallowed your car and you would have been stuck.

* Floodwaters, if deep enough, completely destroy the infrastructure, even in places far from the flood that are supposed to be shelters. It has been pointed out that the water and electricity did not work in the NOLA stadium while the water and electricity in San Diego's Qualcomm stadium did. This is because the deluge from the flood interfered with all the infrastructure, while the fires affected infrastructure in parts. Not that San Diego couldn't have lost power--it was touch and go yesterday--but people were informed of this and those of us who had power conserved energy yesterday.

*Floodwaters destroy livability in all the buildings in their path. Fires hit in spots, areas.



ALL THIS SAID:

San Diego does have to be congratulated for having better planning this time around. The Cedar Fire 4 years ago is still in recent enough memory that city/county planners have had to come up with drastic improvements. Some of the best ones are:

*Reverse 911 (Still has a kink or two, but the thing worked!) I have many friends returning to their homes who were evacuated with the reverse 911 system, sometimes in the middle of the night. These friends are not "rich" by the way and some are just renters.

*Better cooperation with local military and use of military aircraft. This was non-existent during the Cedar Fire. (This still could be better.)

*Better cooperation with the state. Governor D'uh has been down here "early and often". He's a pain in the shorts, but he did the right things and state resources got here.

*Good plans for evacuees. Not just "Starbucks and Bagels", this was a widescale plan to keep evacuees comfortable. NO ONE wanted a Superdome situation again. The planners realized that a large evacuation facility needs to be as comfortable and SAFE as possible. (I know a few single women, both with and without kids, and some elderly folks who won't go to a public shelter for fear of crime to their persons. We know that rapes happened in the Superdome.) Safety is a primary concern. I am sure that the SD planners had the images of the Superdome in their minds when planning the Qualcomm evacuation center. And good for them for planning a better evacuation site.

*Volunteers, volunteers, volunteers: So much of the local help was volunteer. San Diego realized (after Katrina) that the Feds and FEMA are unreliable anymore, and everything LOCAL kicked in: volunteers, donations, corporate help--this was all solicited and people (and companies) stepped up. AT&T was stingy, but other corporations, and LOTS of LOCAL businesses donated goods, services, and help.

[NOLALady]

78. You are absolutely correct.

*NOLA was not really about hurricanes, because Katrina itself did relatively little initial damage as it went through. Remember, everyone in NOLA thought they had "dodged a bullet" as the hurricane eye moved to the eastern border of LA and MI. Actually, the northeastern suburbs (like Slidel) got much more clobbered than the city proper.

NOLA's problem was that the man-made levees broke Monday night, and NO ONE informed the people until it was too late. (The Monday night time came from CNN, despite what the Chimp claims.) NOLA was a failure of the Federal Government, who BUILT those levees, to inform its citizens that their lives were in danger. NOLA was not a natural disaster: it was a Federal Crime. Authorities knew Monday night. I know I knew Monday night: I was watching CNN. (Check Greg Palast for some info on this.)


I did not evacuate from Slidell. Slidell was hit harder than New Orleans, but my property had minimal damage compared to New Orleans.....reason: we were outside of the area that flooded.

Also, I never liked Nagin who's really a Republican. But I cannot fault him for the failures. He prepared his city for the Hurricane as all of us prepared. He did not prepare for the levee break nor was he informed about the levee break. I've lived with Hurricanes all of my life. My family watched Katrina from my upstairs bedroom window. I think Betsy ('65) was worse than Katrina. The levee break, not Katrina, destroyed the City.

[Elspeth]

82. Thank you. Had the hurricane happened as it did and the levees not broken

There's still be a city there.

[KharmaTrain]

77. Different Disasters

I agree that there is a different attitude in both tragedies...but maybe more a perception by our corporate media as opposed to reality.

IMHO, the FEMA and other federal screw-ups in NOLA...and in the entire Gulf Coast was more a byproduct of their kleptocracy than any systemic racism or political vendetta. They were (and still are) inept...people who hate the concept of governing but love the trappings of power. Also, NOLA occured when this regime was still "popular"...at least that was the portrayal...they could do no wrong. Katrina blew the lid (for many) about how bad of a government this country had and the end results have been ever-sinking poll numbers. Historians will point to Katrina as booooshie's worst moments...moreso than Iraq.

At the time I said the biggest screw up in NOLA was Nagin. He was over his head in this crisis and made matters worse. He waited to evacuate the city and then had no plans to evacuate other than have busses parked in lots that also flooded.

The obvious here is this regime is attempting to get a "mulligan" by using another tragedy to "make good" for their past screw up. It sure helps that the area involved is predominately white and affluent. It also helps to have a large military presence already in the area. This area has long prepared for such catastrophes and the response so far has been more a testamony to the solid work and planning of local, not federal officials.

As I said above, let's see how things work once people attempt to press their claims and if we see trailers still in Rancho Bernardo a year from now.

[malaise]

76. Some valid points but

there are several other differences starting with loss of live, no food, no water,other than the fetid water the NOLA residents had to escape, no electricity. Then there's the all white parish which would not let fellow citizens enter as they escaped the horrible conditions. Californians welcomed their fellow citizens. Further I'm not aware of families being separated and sent all over the US.

[Elspeth]

83. See my repost above on Fire Vs Floods

Nobody read it before. But if you post a political thread, people will read it.

[bobbolink]

87. The REAL reason behind the REAL difference is simple: poverty

And that has STILL not been grasped... including by liberals.

It's forgotten.

Out of sight, out of mind.