Group panhandles for slavery reparations

[shain from kane]

The Associated Press
http://www.bnd.com/breaking_news/story/150373.html

PORTLAND, Ore. --It was panhandling, it was performance art - and it was a political statement about the legacy of slavery and reparations for black people.

A dozen volunteers, black and white, took to the streets of Portland on Wednesday to take part in what its creator called the National Day of Panhandling for Reparations.

They asked white passers-by to pay reparations for enslaving black people, and then they gave money to black passers-by.

"Artists take the lead on social issues," the organizer, a Portland-based performance artist named damali ayo, told The Oregonian. "This is the way I'm taking the lead on a social issue. Taking it to the streets. Also to get the job done - getting those reparations paid out."
------------------------------------------------
As volunteer Frances Miller asked passers-by for money, they reacted with confusion, amusement or annoyance. Some, like delivery man Jeremy Butyrin, gave money.

"America's history hasn't been so kind to a lot of people," said Butyrin, who gave $10. "You can't always count on the government to take care of it. Sometimes you have to do it yourself."
----------------------------------------------
About 70 volunteers were recruited in the United States, Great Britain and New Zealand, said ayo, who uses lowercase letters for her name. She is the author of a satirical book titled "How to Rent a Negro."

[Sneaky Sailor]

1. I dont want to be the wet blanket

but what reparations are we looking for here. Is 40 acres and a mule good enough? Seriously...

[GeminiProgressive]

2. I think

an official gov. apology, full affirmative action, ending racial profiling, and fully funded education and healthcare is a must for reparations.

[Sneaky Sailor]

3. Please define "full" affirmative action?

And how do you propose to "end" racial profiling. And furthermore, fully funded education? So every African-American get a free ride all the way up and free health care at everyone elses expense? Perhaps I am confused but it sounds like a raw deal to me...

[shain from kane]

7. The "middle passage" was a raw deal.

[Rhythm and Blue]

10. Fortunately, there are no surviving people who endured it.

Torture is not genetically transmitted.

[shanti]

16. hello!!!!

:thumbsup:

[Bucky]

32. They should totally ask for their boat fare back!

[Rhythm and Blue]

6. Please explain.

What does "full affirmative action" mean?
Why should only blacks receive full free college educations? Are Hispanics and poor whites from the same communities less deserving?
Why should only blacks receive free healthcare? Are rich blacks somehow more deserving than poor Hispanics and poor whites?

[shain from kane]

5. There are entire companies that are existing today that if you isolated their profits

from the slave trade, adjusted those profits for subsequent earnings and inflation, that would have no remaining equity. In other words, they owe their very existence to the slave trade. That is not justice.

[Sneaky Sailor]

8. OK so we close all of those companies down and put everyone out of work, white and black

and then seek out people who are decended from slaves (my wife for example) what percent "slave" do they have to be to get money, my wife is 1/8 black seminole, does she get some or is she disqualified because her relative died as a freedman.

[shain from kane]

24. You realize that if those slaves would have been paid wages, and her family had been able to sustain

that wealth through the years, she would be a very rich person. However, certain companies have unjustly enriched themselves. Rather than receive cash, perhaps she should receive her proportionate share of the stock of any company that may have benefited from her family's labor. After all, her familiy's wealth is represented through those stock certicates that have not been rightfully transferred to her. Then, she could decide whether she should convert her stock to cash through the stock market.

[Sneaky Sailor]

30. But you said that

the company would not exist... I am lost now, must be my substandard edumacation...

[shain from kane]

45. They most certainly do exist now. Just review the Fortune 500 listing. But their entire equity

has been built using the base of support for slavery. If they had paid the slaves or refused to do business with slaveholders, their would have been no profits to re-invest or constantly plow back into the business. Since the slaves weren't paid, there was, in effect, deferred compensation built up as wealth over the years. That wealth is represented by stock certificates, that in the interest of justice, should be distributed to the former slaves' extended family that has survived slavery and Jim Crow laws.

[Sneaky Sailor]

54. wooo hooo

looks like my wife and I are getting some stock :)

[Marrah_G]

35. That's not really true

It is a fallacy that the length of time ones family has been here (and paid wages) equals the amount of wealth they have. My family came over not long after the Mayflower. They still live in Plymouth. My great grandmother was native American. I do not have vast wealth, nor does my family.

[Sneaky Sailor]

Once again I have no clue what point you are trying to make

clearly you are thinking way above my poor brain...

[Marrah_G]

47. did you respond to the wrong post?

[shain from kane]

56. If you or your family's employer had paid 1/2 of what you deserved, and put the other 1/2

in the bank or another investment, and it came time to open the vault after several hundred years, you would be wealthy. You're saying that your family is not wealthy, because, in effect, they spent everything, and nobody with whips and chains deprived them of their wages during their lifetime.

[Marrah_G]

59. What I am saying is that your assuption that a family would be wealthy based on ......

the length of time spent here being paid wages is false. Some would be wealthy, some would not.

[Sneaky Sailor]

64. I dont think I made that assumption

If I did, it was unintentional.

[Marrah_G]

74. I was responding to a different poster

[shain from kane]

67. OK, starting tomorrow you give me 1/2 of your wages, and for the next 20 years, you have to make do

with whatever I allow you as take home pay, about 1/2 of your current paycheck. And you have to live in substandard housing, eat whatever's available, build a bonfire to heat the home, rely on neighbors and Goodwill for your clothing, suffer all kinds of diseases and illnesses without medical care, or only home remedies, don't bother going to school, because you have to work, and send the kids to work, also. Then, after 20 years have passed, wouldn't you expect to receive a big paycheck for all your suffering and deprivation?

[Marrah_G]

77. I think we are having a communication issue

I am not saying I don't think reparations should have been paid to the freed slaves. I am saying that your post earlier stating that his wife would have been rich was not accurate. Some families would have been and others would not have been. For other families it would have been like a roller coaster of ups and downs.

[Sneaky Sailor]

87. Got it :) n/t

[shain from kane]

95. The fact of the matter is that the family was able to survive on what was allocated to them. If a

portion was diverted to another alternative than what was required for survival, such as land purchases, savings accounts, etc. and never needed to be converted to cash and consumed, then that wealth that was accumulated would still exist to this day, through family farms, inheritance, foundations, etc. In the example related to corporations, those companies retained part of these peoples' remuneration, by not having to pay wages, and used that base to build further wealth that exists even today, or has been diverted by the companies for other uses. I read somewhere that airlines wouldn't exist if they had to refund for tickets to customers who failed to show at the gate for the flights. There was a helluva fight about whether this was abandoned property that should have reverted to the state. Every dollar that is not paid to the deserving individual is another dollar of profit to the corporation. If you could submit a claim, which is basically the process of reparations, against those entities that unjustly enriched themselves, then there should be a huge pool of money, real estate, stock, and other assets available for payment of those claims. There were reparations paid to Japanese-Americans for the internments in World War II, because it was deemed to be an injustice. In the hierarchy of injustices, don't you think slavery ranks somewhere?

[Sneaky Sailor]

62. I dont know what American History you have been reading

but I am pretty sure my ancestors have not been payed everything they earned in the past either.

[shain from kane]

70. Well, I'll damned sure agree with that.

[Virginia Dare]

49. Start with the British Royals, they made a tidy sum off slavery...

I'm quite sure they've got a few bucks stashed away.

[Marrah_G]

4. OOOOoooo........ is it time for the Reparations FlameFest again?

:popcorn:

:bounce:

[Rhythm and Blue]

9. Where's the reparations for slaveowners totally ruined

when all those extremely expensive slaves were freed? Talk about eminent domain abuses.

:sarcasm:

[Sneaky Sailor]

11. Thats not the point...

There is a point where it gets a little ridiculous though.....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Do you think slaveowners deserve reparations?

You're comparing slave owners to slaves?

[Rhythm and Blue]

13. Did you note the sarcasm tag?

Obviously I do not believe that slaveowners deserve reparations.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Do you think the slaves should have been given reparations?

[Rhythm and Blue]

15. Depends on what you mean by that.

Should have been given reparations at the point of emancipation? Yes. Should be given now? No.

[Sneaky Sailor]

17. Amen

....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Do you think the legacy of slavery continues to this day?

[Sneaky Sailor]

19. Yes, do I think it wil be solved by any of the things

that were previously mentioned? No

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. Hmm.

So you've got some plaintiffs with some legitimate grievances against the federal government, who should have been awarded damages, but were not. Their children, and they've got the same sort of grievances against the same government. So you're saying they should be awarded reparations.

What do you think you think those reparations should be?

[Sneaky Sailor]

27. I dont believe in reparations so no

I do not think that the great-great-great-great-great-great grandchildren of the plaintifs should recieve payment.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Why not?

[Rhythm and Blue]

25. Depends on what you mean by that.

Do I believe that slavery has had negative effects on many people, and that many Americans are worse-off now than they would be had slavery never existed? Yes. Do I believe that the lot of African-Americans would be, on the whole, better had they simply magically shown up freedmen in 1870 without there having been slavery at all? Probably not; I believe most of the current problems in the African-American community stem from segregation, ghettoization of American inner cities, white flight and the systematic, government-sponsored racism blacks endured from emancipation to at least the Civil Rights Era. I strongly believe that had former slaves all appeared indistinguishable from white folk, then the lot of African-American in general would be little different from the lot of any other group that first came to America as a pack of poor, uneducated menial laborers.

Do I believe that the problems are caused directly by slavery itself, with a one-to-one correspondence between the plight of a slave and his descendant a century and a half later? No. Do I believe that a cash payout would solve the systematic problems at all? No.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. ...

"I believe most of the current problems in the African-American community stem from segregation, ghettoization of American inner cities, white flight and the systematic, government-sponsored racism blacks endured from emancipation to at least the Civil Rights Era."

So if you believe these things are legacies from slavery, how do you account for economic disparities between black communities and white communities, and why would a "cash payout" not alleviate that?

[Sneaky Sailor]

34. Because, how many "ghettoized" persons

Would be able to make that "cash payout" work for them. It would help in the short run but it would be no different than people winning the lottery.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. Interesting.

So you're saying "ghettoized" persons are less trustworthy with money than some white guy from Yale?

[Sneaky Sailor]

46. No but look at how many people who win the lottery

Are destitute within a few years again... this isnt a race thing but a class thing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. No?

Silly me, I thought that's exactly what you were saying.

[Sneaky Sailor]

58. Did you respond to the wrong post,

What is this post supposed to mean.

[Rhythm and Blue]

48. I do not believe those are legacies directly from slavery, no.

Those are legacies of American xenophobia. When the Irish came over, they were treated more-or-less the same as their African-American contemporaries. Same with the Polish; same with the Italians. The difference is that a second-generation Irish immigrant does not appear any different from a seventh-generation American of English descent, whereas a fifth-generation African-American is still clearly distinguishable from that English-American

I already stated how I account for economic disparities. First, white people give preferential hiring to white people, depressing the financial situation of black people. Secondly, white people and black people begin living in different communities, due to mutual distrust (though with the "blame" lying far more heavily on whites than on blacks). This results in not only individual black poverty, but (crucially) regional poverty, in which blacks have fewer economic opportunities, as their local economies are absolutely shattered. Thirdly, whites pick up their houses and businesses and leave, further harming black communities. All the while, black educational opportunities are lower, at first because of segregation and later because of decreased tax revenue in black-dominated areas due to the above.

A one-time cash payout would not solve anything at all. Inner-city poverty is systematic. Suppose you give a black man $100,000. Suppose he then pays off his credit card bills, maybe buys a car, maybe buys a television, maybe socks some away for his kid's education, maybe improves his house. The first three just end up with the black guy having a new luxury and the white guy in another state having his money. The fourth is a benefit for him and his family, especially if his kid becomes a lawyer or businessman and practices in his old community--however, putting money towards African-American scholarships is more efficient. The last helps his community if he hires local workers--however, a more efficient way to solve *this* problem is to lower tax rates in impoverished areas for local businesses, provide preferential hiring for city contracting to local workers instead of large firms, and to increase the state burden on education to make up for the loss in revenue.

Now, all those uses of that guy's payout will result in a brief uptick in tax revenue, helping local schools. But a more efficient way of helping local schools would be, again, increasing the state burden on paying for education, and lowering local burdens. I'm honestly not sure why we still allow the poorest areas to have the worst schools. And, to briefly digress, why are schools purchasing all their services from nationwide vendors? Better to hire local businesses (provide a bit more funding to cover the cost difference) and kill two birds with one stone. Stimulating local business will increase local tax revenues in the long term, after all.

And no matter what the guy does with his money, for many it's probably gone within a few years; many, many lottery winners, athletes, and pop stars simply increase luxury spending end up destitute within a few years after the cash stops coming in, no matter their race or their background. Putting the money that would have gone towards reparations into an Urban Development Fund of some sort, and using that to fund inner-city business development, crime-elimination programs, after-school activities, and scholarships would be a much better use of that money, and I would be completely behind such a program.

(on edit: I see you've yet again simply left after peppering me with questions.)

[shain from kane]

60. "A one-time cash payout would not solve anything at all." Do you believe in justice? n/t

[Rhythm and Blue]

63. Yes. I believe that justice is best served

by actually addressing the problems black communities face. I pretty clearly state why I believe a one-time cash payout does not go to actually fixing the problem, and outline a cohesive plan for social justice.

Listen, I'm white as a sheet of paper. I've got an entirely Celtic heritage. However, I grew up in an overwhelmingly African-American community on the South Side of Chicago. 70% of my classmates in high school were black (Don't worry, I'm not going to say "most of my friends were black," when it came to friendships and social groups there wasn't nearly as much intermingling as one might have hoped.) I think I have a decent perspective on the problems the African-American community faces, and believe me, I have an emotional interest in fixing my community. I'm not just saying "Screw 'em, I got mine."

[Sneaky Sailor]

66. Justice is not served by handing someone money

and walking away...

[shain from kane]

71. The legal system is used to award damages and punitive damages. I don't

believe that injunctive relief or cease and desist orders would work at this late date.

[Sneaky Sailor]

76. Cease and desist what? n/t

[shain from kane]

82. S-L-A-V-E-R-Y. J-I-M C-R-O-W L-A-W-S. Cease and desist, injunctive relief are used

to halt unfair actions and injustices. Once the injustice has occurred, only damages and punitive damages can make the parties whole again.

[Sneaky Sailor]

89. OK I was confused as to what we were talking about

Thank you for talking to me like a 3 year old, I will return the favor in due course, or I will avoid sinking to your level... you never know :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

98. ...

"When the Irish came over, they were treated more-or-less the same as their African-American contemporaries. Same with the Polish; same with the Italians. The difference is that a second-generation Irish immigrant does not appear any different from a seventh-generation American of English descent, whereas a fifth-generation African-American is still clearly distinguishable from that English-American"

But unlike anti-Irish sentiment, anti-black sentiment continues until today. It's a legacy of slavery. That's why it's so much worse in the South. The Jena 6 are a perfect example.

"First, white people give preferential hiring to white people, depressing the financial situation of black people. Secondly, white people and black people begin living in different communities, due to mutual distrust (though with the "blame" lying far more heavily on whites than on blacks). This results in not only individual black poverty, but (crucially) regional poverty, in which blacks have fewer economic opportunities, as their local economies are absolutely shattered. Thirdly, whites pick up their houses and businesses and leave, further harming black communities. All the while, black educational opportunities are lower, at first because of segregation and later because of decreased tax revenue in black-dominated areas due to the above."

This is an argument in favor of economic reparation.

"A one-time cash payout would not solve anything at all."

Sure it will. This is why one time cash pay outs are so common in civil cases. It will help cover the lack of the raise his employer didn't give him. It'll allow his to move out of the apartment his racist slum-lord owns. It'll allow him a new car so he won't be late to work because his car breaks down. He can send the kid to a better school. All the things you mentioned that were depressing the financial situation of black people can be addressed.

Does it do everything? No, the white racist boss will still be around. Which is why we'd still need things like affirmitive action.

"a more efficient way to solve *this* problem is to lower tax rates in impoverished areas for local businesses, provide preferential hiring for city contracting to local workers instead of large firms, and to increase the state burden on education to make up for the loss in revenue."

That's more efficient?

"I'm honestly not sure why we still allow the poorest areas to have the worst schools."

C'mon.

"And no matter what the guy does with his money, for many it's probably gone within a few years; many, many lottery winners, athletes, and pop stars simply increase luxury spending end up destitute within a few years after the cash stops coming in, no matter their race or their background."

Yeah, this is the same "black people aren't good with money" argument the other guy made.

[Sneaky Sailor]

101. Pay out>?

"Sure it will. This is why one time cash pay outs are so common in civil cases. It will help cover the lack of the raise his employer didn't give him. It'll allow his to move out of the apartment his racist slum-lord owns. It'll allow him a new car so he won't be late to work because his car breaks down. He can send the kid to a better school. All the things you mentioned that were depressing the financial situation of black people can be addressed."

Anti Jewish sentiment pervades to this day, I am sure as hell not getting a new car. Anti-Italian sentiment pervades to this day, I dont see them getting a hook up..

So we get back to the pay out....
Who gets said pay out???

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

103. And Germans pay reparations over the holocaust.

Even though the vast majority of holocaust victims are dead. You don't hear excuses from Germans about how they shouldn't pay reparations because Jews aren't good with money.

"Who gets said pay out??"

Descendents of slaves. African American communities, where direct records of ancestry aren't available.

[Sneaky Sailor]

105. Uh huh

I am sure that will be a wonderful use of goverment dollars that will fix...nothing

decendants and survivors of 6 million Jews in a well documented genocide over a period of 6 years that happened 60 years ago

(does not) =

descendants of over 500,000 slaves with nearly no records involved in a slow ordeal over a period of 300 years one hundred and forty years ago.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

112. So you're whole argument...

relies on documentation and a difference of eighty years?

[Sneaky Sailor]

113. No my argument is that

IT WILL SOLVE NOTHING!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

115. I think that's what they call "changing goal posts"

[Rhythm and Blue]

107. Replies

But unlike anti-Irish sentiment, anti-black sentiment continues until today. It's a legacy of slavery. That's why it's so much worse in the South. The Jena 6 are a perfect example.

Yes, it does still continue. I specifically stated that it did. But not because of slavery. Seriously, you think white folk go, "Man, there's a black guy. He used to be a slave. I don't like him." No, it's tribal shit. They're "different" so white folk distrust them. Anti-Irish sentiment went away the moment that they became indistinguishable from WASPs. Same with anti-Italian, anti-Polish, and every other anti-Whatever sentiment. It's when they stopped being "different." Black people still look "different." So they still get the discrimination. If Irish people were all greenskinned, they'd probably have a similar experience.

This is an argument in favor of economic reparation.

No, it isn't. It's an argument that entire economies are depressed, and not because of slavery. And any solution must be systematic. Simply dropping cash in a lump sum doesn't fix anything.

Sure it will. This is why one time cash pay outs are so common in civil cases. It will help cover the lack of the raise his employer didn't give him. It'll allow his to move out of the apartment his racist slum-lord owns. It'll allow him a new car so he won't be late to work because his car breaks down. He can send the kid to a better school. All the things you mentioned that were depressing the financial situation of black people can be addressed.

Not really. Payouts are common in civil cases because the court has few other options to redress grievances; they can't very well un-amputate a limb, for example. And if there were no other options, I might be in favor of reparations. But the problem is, giving him cash won't actually solve the problems. The reason why blacks have such high unemployment rates is not that they do not have cars, it's that black-dominated areas do not have enough high-paying jobs, and blacks on the whole have poorer educations. And sure, the guy might choose to send his kid to a private school. So we eviscerate our public-school systems for those that don't leave, and we haven't fixed the public-school system long term. Balancing school funding will force the educational problem to be solved, whereas reparations maybe might sort of. And again, you can't deny that a significant proportion of the funding will simply go to luxury spending, which will not in the slightest stimulate local economies.

You haven't really addressed the crux of my argument, which is that the cash payout will not fundamentally alter the economic layout of America. It will not make black areas better off past one generation, because the same big-box economy (in which the majority of every dollar spent leaves the area) will drain all that cash right back out of the black community.

Does it do everything? No, the white racist boss will still be around. Which is why we'd still need things like affirmitive action.

Yeah, that's nice. A bigger problem is not the white boss of the local Best Buy, but the fact that every dollar you spend at Best Buy goes to Minnesota, and all that stays in your state is the sales tax and the minimum-wage salary paid to the clerk. The biggest problem is not the white president of the law firm who refuses to hire black lawyers, but rather the fact that black-dominated schools cannot afford to adequately educate their children, due to the imbalance of the local economies.

"a more efficient way to solve *this* problem is to lower tax rates in impoverished areas for local businesses, provide preferential hiring for city contracting to local workers instead of large firms, and to increase the state burden on education to make up for the loss in revenue."

That's more efficient?

Yes. Jesus, yes. That's how urban development works. Encourage local businesses, ensure as many dollars as possible stay in the community, and put as much of the costs as possible on the areas that can afford it (that is, through state funding and not local funding). Seriously, if you don't understand why that isn't more efficient, you're on your own. I don't have time to teach Econ 101 and Public Policy 101 to an unwilling audience.

"And no matter what the guy does with his money, for many it's probably gone within a few years; many, many lottery winners, athletes, and pop stars simply increase luxury spending end up destitute within a few years after the cash stops coming in, no matter their race or their background."

Yeah, this is the same "black people aren't good with money" argument the other guy made.

No, this is "people aren't good with money." People are terrible with lump sums. Many are not, but many are. Urban development programs, on the other hand, are generally efficient.

I note you did not bother to address my suggestions for solving the problem, but instead chose to (again) fall back on insinuations of racism. Rather than picking out lines you think you can disagree with, try actually combatting my argument.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

111. ...

"Seriously, you think white folk go, Man, there's a black guy. He used to be a slave. I don't like him."

I spect that white folks was pissed off on account a that there civil war, and inacted all sorts of Jim Crow legislation, and white folks started lynchin black folks on account a them learnin how to read an all, and they taught it to their children and then to their children and so on.

"If Irish people were all greenskinned, they'd probably have a similar experience."

So how do you explain the success of asian communities?

"You haven't really addressed the crux of my argument, which is that the cash payout will not fundamentally alter the economic layout of America. It will not make black areas better off past one generation, because the same big-box economy (in which the majority of every dollar spent leaves the area) will drain all that cash right back out of the black community."

The crux of the argument is that the government would handle money better than black people would. Not only do I think you don't believe this, it's not an argument against reparations, just how it's achieved.

"No, this is "people aren't good with money.""

People like athletes and celebrities, eh? Feh.

[Rhythm and Blue]

116. ;;;

"Seriously, you think white folk go, Man, there's a black guy. He used to be a slave. I don't like him."

I spect that white folks was pissed off on account a that there civil war, and inacted all sorts of Jim Crow legislation, and white folks started lynchin black folks on account a them learnin how to read an all, and they taught it to their children and then to their children and so on.

Well, if you think that the root cause of racism in America is that white people were angry about there having been a civil war--and that anti-immigrant hostility is a totally-unrelated phenomenon (despite appearing the exact same in every way, down to the KKK)--I can't really help you. I think you're really stretching, but I can't really help you.

"If Irish people were all greenskinned, they'd probably have a similar experience."

So how do you explain the success of asian communities?

The success of Asian communities is a fairly recent phenomenon, actually, and really was only achieved after America attained some level of racial consciousness. Chinatowns were certainly not economically vibrant areas; few are today. There are several issues with model-minority groups such as Asians, but we'll start with saying that successful minorities generally lose their stigmas. Now, part of it has to do with their immigrant status on the West Coast; the rapid expansion provided many opportunities for entrepreneurism that the slower-growing Southeast did not have. Part of it has to do with the fact that the communities in which they arrived were populated largely by immigrants as well; a Pole or a Chinese will have less of a problem buying from a Korean than a WASP will. Part of it has to do with the fact that they were simply here for less time during the days when racism was heaviest; they came in with fewer disadvantages. Part of it has to do with a culture that was famously perceived to reward both ambition and obedience to authority, which made them seem like decent employees, while African-Americans for generations were in an environment in which authority was often illegitimate and ambition was disallowed by those same authorities; whites blamed the effects of their racism on "laziness." It's a deceptively complex question. It's quicker to say "Because white people have a pathological hatred for blacks only," but that's an oversimplification.

The crux of the argument is that the government would handle money better than black people would. Not only do I think you don't believe this, it's not an argument against reparations, just how it's achieved.

Well, sort of. Many black people would handle their money very well for them. But the benefit of an individual is not always the benefit of a community. If the local economy is such that every dollar spent leaves for some white guy's pockets, the benefits of the payout will evaporate and the schools will quickly return to their prior state. That's a recipe for no real change. I mean, if you're suggesting that every black person will decide to only spend on local businesses and encourage local development, great--but people aren't doing that now (white or black), so I don't know why you would think that would change.

If you consider development programs like I outline in #48 to be "reparations," then I am in favor of that form of reparations--but I am not in favor of them because I feel we owe them to blacks as a result of slavery; I feel that America owes a healthy economy with good education and good jobs to everyone, and we're badly underserving our inner cities.

People like athletes and celebrities, eh? Feh.

Both of those have agents and financial advisors out the ass--and even still, a shocking number of them are middle-class or even occasionally destitute once age pushes them off the money train.

Regardless of anything, isn't it better to discuss the issue on its merits instead of just writing off all criticism as "trolling?"

[AspenRose]

20. Why does this remind me of something the College Republicans would do?

Affirmative Action Bake Sale, anyone?

I'm all for drawing attention to an issue, but I'm not sure this is/was the best way to do it....:shrug:

[Sneaky Sailor]

21. I bought my expensive ass brownie from the CR's when I

was there many moons ago!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. You participated in the College Republican hate fest, eh?

Why am I not surprised?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. I know all I need to know about you.

Your own posts here, particularly #34, make it perfectly clear.

[ret5hd]

44. No doubt!

[Sneaky Sailor]

50. Clearly you have no clue what I am talking about

Giving poor destitute, uneducated people a big ol' hunk of money is not going to solve their problem...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. No, I know exactly what you're all about.

I'm just not falling for your bullshit.

"Giving poor destitute, uneducated people a big ol' hunk of money is not going to solve their problem..."

So you're classist too, eh? :rofl:

[Sneaky Sailor]

61. No I am not

But I have seen what a bunch of poor kids from the ghetto or the trailer park do when they first get a real honest paycheck (this is of course speaking in generalities, there are always exceptions) anyone who has ever been in the military in a position of authority can probably back me up on this. Without instruction or guidance, for the most part, that big ol' hunk of money is going to end up right back in the fat cat's hands and our intrepid hero will once again have nothing.

[Rhythm and Blue]

78. Believe it or not, people you disagree with

aren't generally laughably stupid. Often, they've just thought through an issue a step further than you have.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. Not generally, no.

But some of them, yeah.

"Often, they've just thought through an issue a step further than you have."

And some of them don't do any thinking at all. Like I said earlier, you ain't foolin' nobody.

[Rhythm and Blue]

88. Try actually responding to post #48, in which

I present a cohesive explanation for how blacks got in the situation they are in now (yes, it is the fault of white racism), explain why reparations would not solve the problem, and present a multi-point platform for actually fixing it through government spending.

Insinuating I'm a troll just because you can't think of a good answer ain't good enough.

[Rhythm and Blue]

93. (crickets)

Man, you did this yesterday, too.

Me: A.
You: But then do you believe B? Aha! Gotcha.
Me: No, because X.
You: But what about Y? Aha! Gotcha.
Me: No, because Z.
You: But what about F? Aha! Gotcha. You're obviously a troll.
Me: No, because A, X, and Z are all part of a cohesive explanation for this event. A, X, and Z are related like so.
You: *silence*

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

94. OK, if you really want me too.

[ret5hd]

26. what was his name?

[Sneaky Sailor]

39. hahaha funny

but also offensive...

[ret5hd]

42. it wasn't meant to be funny. I was trying to offend you as you have offended me.

[Sneaky Sailor]

68. How have I offended you?

please elaborate...

[Bucky]

29. Attention white DUers. If you give money for reparations, please keep the receipt...

That's totally gotta be tax deductible, right?

[The Straight Story]

33. Well, if you don't show said receipt you could get tasered

:)

[Marrah_G]

38. or have a pit bull take you down.

[Sneaky Sailor]

41. Dont Tase me, bro

Ironically that was my college

[Marrah_G]

43. Hey if you see that kid....

Tell him I said he's an asshat!

:hide:

[Sneaky Sailor]

52. Oh I live in Jacksonville now

I havent been to UF for anything but a football game in years.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. And college republican cake bakes?

[Sneaky Sailor]

65. The CR's were doing that for years at schools all over

I have my pays of playing with the other side and you have yours, how about you stop accusing me of baing a hate monger because I bought an overpriced brownie(being white even though I assumed I would get a Jewish discount) and engaged the CR's in a pretty lively debate as a result...thats what college was all about, isnt it?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. You know...

that's the second time today at DU I've heard academic freedom on colleges to defend hate speech.

[Sneaky Sailor]

75. Define the bake sale as hate speech again

Were you there? Were you at the sale with me... Do you have recordings of what was said? Ok then, once again, just a you do not know me, you do not know what happened at Turlington Plaza that day, I ask you to not presume that you do.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

79. So now you're denying that it's racist?

:spray:

[Sneaky Sailor]

81. I am denying that it is so horrid that

Someone's First Amendment Rights should be denied to them for it...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. So are you admitting it's racist or not?

"Someone's First Amendment Rights should be denied to them for it..."

Now that's the second time today on DU I've seen somebody bring up the first amendment regarding hate speech on campus even thought it's got nothing to do with the 1st amendment.

:rofl:

[Sneaky Sailor]

86. Huh?

"even thought it's got nothing to do with the 1st amendment."

Please cite legal precedent for this statement...

I would love to hear where someone saying something racist or something that could even be construed as rascist is not allowed under the first amendment in this sitiation (not that any racial slurs were ever used in the conversation I had with the CR's)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. ...

"I would love to hear where someone saying something racist or something that could even be construed as rascist is not allowed under the first amendment in this sitiation (not that any racial slurs were ever used in the conversation I had with the CR's)"

So would I. I don't see anybody saying it's not protected speech, yet for some reason you brought up the 1st amendment.

[Sneaky Sailor]

97. It is protected speech

Unless you want to argue that the bake sale is tantamount to "fighting words" (under Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire) but I do not think that any same person could even make that comparison.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. What comparison?

Who's saying it isn't protected speech?

Why'd you bring up the 1st amendment?

[Sneaky Sailor]

102. You brought up academic freedom (which I never said)

I brought up the first amendment to clarify what I was referring to when I said "thats what college is all about"

the speech is protected just as surely as my anthropology professor calling me a "fool" and a "robot" for believeing in G-d is protected.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

104. You alluded to it.

"pretty lively debate as a result...thats what college was all about, isnt it?"

You didn't bring up the first amendment because you were under the mistaken idea that people were saying it wasn't protected speech, hmm?

"the speech is protected just as surely as my anthropology professor calling me a "fool" and a "robot" for believeing in G-d is protected."

Oh savory Jesus on uneven bars, what now?

[Sneaky Sailor]

106. I was making the point

that I have been offended by things that were said to me but I never claimed it was "hate" speech

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

109. What does hate speech have to do with the first amendment?

Hate speech is protected the by the first amendment, that doesn't mean it's not still hate speech.

[Sneaky Sailor]

110. Uh huh

Then tough noogies to you, I will endure what people say then in order to debate them and ensure a more open society and you can continue to classify peoples speech as whatever you want all day long :)

[Marrah_G]

57. Bummer

He did give us a great new little catchy phrase though.

[Sneaky Sailor]

69. Yeah

He made my day when I heard that, what an assbag, I have youtube pranksters...

[Sneaky Sailor]

73. Just so everyone knows

I am indeed not a rascist, my wife and I have been working for social justice for years. Its tought not to get a bit cynical sometimes thought. Especially my wife, anyone who has been a Public Defender can probably attest.

[Marrah_G]

80. Are you an active duty Navy guy?

[Sneaky Sailor]

84. Yes

And I have mentored hundreds of poor kids and I think I even got through to a few of them...

I have been giving my time and treasure to charities and homeless shelters every weekend for as long as I can remember...

These issues are inportant to me, but I advocate lasting solutions not "quick fixes"

[Marrah_G]

90. I only asked because...

My brother is also. Well, he was retired for 10 years, but they called him back to serve a year active duty in Iraq.

He also did alot of charity work with shelters and food kitchens while stationed in Norfolk before he was married with kids.

I agree with much of what you say about long term fixes. I see improvement with each generation though, so I am hopeful.

[Sneaky Sailor]

92. Yeah alot of us are doing our "extra" tour over there as well.

Lots of fun, I really love doing the Armys scut work...

I only wonder when we are fighting China or Iran in a Naval was, will the army send guys to chip our paint and cook and serve our food?

[GeminiProgressive]

96. Clarifying my post at the start of this thread

I believe ALL people should be covered with non-profit healthcare, fully and EQUALLY funded public schools and access and funding for college. and affirmative action restored to the states it was taken from. That would be my answer to reparations.

[Sneaky Sailor]

100. fair enough

Still need to work to change peoples attitudes...

But then when do we "call it even"?

[Sneaky Sailor]

108. Ahh everyone must have gone to bed

:)

[shain from kane]

114. Listen, it's time for 3 year olds to take a nap. (#89) n/t