911: I will now speak heresy

[Tyler Durden]

The World Trade Center was hit on purpose by two planes, 3000 people died. TIME TO MOVE ON.

I won't even address the phony "Terrorism Issue," because there is none. There have been Three (count 'em: three) acts of terrorism on US territory in the last 50 years or so: Oklahoma City, WTC I and WTC II. We never say anything about OK and WTC I and never even put them on a "Terra" radar. So that angle is mostly moot.

3K people, plus the first responders who'll die from the aftermath. A Tragedy? Well, yes, of a sort and on a scale.

Over 3K soldiers have died in Iraq, plus HUNDREDS of thousands of Iraqis.
Tens of thousands died from the flu and its complications, and have been doing so ongoing for YEARS.
Tens of thousands died from traffic accidents. EVERY YEAR.
Thousands died from gun issues, and so on, in this country alone.
God knows how many died in NOLA.

HUNDREDS of thousands died from the Indonesian Tsunami.
HUNDREDS of thousands died in third world from earthquakes.
HUNDREDS of thousands died this month from HUNGER and AIDS in Africa.

Where's THEIR Telethon?

You're getting the drift here, aren't you?

The sort of ARROGANCE that creates a slaughter of the "Holy Innocents" sort of shtick around WTC II is not only ugly and narcissistic in the extreme, it's SICK. It infers a deranged equation about who's death is more tragic or diminishing than someone else's. In a more perfect society, people with that world view would be given head of line privileges at the Mental Health Clinic.

There is NOTHING patriotic about glorifying an incident where people get killed like WTC II. YES it's a waste, but a focal point for a sick sort of SIX YEAR LONG GRIEF FEST?? Good God, even the ancients got over the deaths of their God-Rulers in a season or two. What's next: we start BEATIFYING WTC II DEAD?

People, this serves one purpose now and one only: DISTRACTION. We won't get anyone back from WTC II, the war, or Interstate 94.

It's time: let the DEAD bury the DEAD, Mr. Finch.

Let remember the dead, but let us care for the LIVING: there is more profit in it.

[Coexist]

1. I am sick and tired of the fear-mongering re: 9/11 too, read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2013743&mesg_id=2013743

I am here, and I am saying this NOW. It IS worth American lives lost in another terror attack to have the Constitution upheld. It IS worth another 9-11 to stop being so AFRAID of death and explosions that we allow people to listen to private conversations, to send people we suspect slightly (and often incorrectly) of a plot away on airplanes to be tortured in foreign countries, and have peaceful protesters terrorized.

[colorado_ufo]

53. Absolutely right.

It has infuriated me for some time that the same people who stand with their hands over their hearts and loudly sing, "the land of the FREE and the home of the BRAVE," and cheer the fact that they THINK they are singing about themselves, are the same ones who in a heartbeat will give up their freedom, their rights, their privacy, and their constitution and country, with the mantra, "Yeah but, if it keeps us SAFE . . ."

[peacetalksforall]

70. What is heart wrenching is that 9-11 was a criminal act and wasn't treated

like a criminal act. They made a war instead of a court case. And millions are exiled, maimed, dead, massacred, chemically poofed, including our own - allowing attention to be drawn away from everything else and losing our Constitution along the way - PLUS learning that some Dem leaders are insidious hawks - for corporations. Oh yeah - and add that this nation is now poor and getting poor-ER.

[truedelphi]

83. Right after Bush said that he'd make sure that we got those responsible,

Chris Matthews pointed out several times that we had gotten them - the nineteen hijackers were dead.

But the real reason for all this "grieving" and "remembering" was for the things that PNAC had declared as goals.

And the CIA wasn't frowning too much either.

We have the pipeline through Afghanistan; we have the endless war providing lots of underground cash in terms of money hoisted from supposedly showering the Iraqi with capital to rebuild (Nine billion lost there)

We know from watching the Tom DeLay hearings that illegally gotten cash usually ends up halping illegally funding an election or two or three.


Pre 9/11, the CIA was also looking for away to see that American service people woul dbe willing to arrest and detain American civilians when called on to do so. (This goal and the government's puzzlement over how to accomplish it used to be on the CIA's own official website.)

Between the mess of minds and hearts brought on by endless deployments overseas, and through the cultivation of the forces such as Blackwater, we now know that the Powers that Be would have no problem obtaining people to kick our doors in in the middle of the night.

[eridani]

77. We are now nothing but a bunch of well-armed, trigger-happy bedwetters n/t

[bos1]

91. "USA's PET TRAGEDY" is how I have heard it described

in other parts of the world. Unpleasant, I know.

[Coexist]

102. ouch.

[Tyler Durden]

116. PERFECT.

I will be using that in future writings to describe the incident.

[bos1]

129. give me credit!

[earth mom]

68. The thing you just don't get is that 9/11 was THE reason for * & Co to SHRED the Constitution.

Another 9/11 and the entire Constitution will be history and we will be looking at an in your face dictatorship!

The terra terra terra mime bullshit has ONLY worked for the powers that be. For the rest of us peons it's only made us less and less free as every day has gone by.


That's why wanting another 9/11 is utter craziness. I could hardly believe my eyes when I read your "statement". Don't you get that another 9/11 will be the final nail in the coffin for this country and for all of us?!



We should all be trying to expose these bastards for what they are by spreading the word about what the ultimate plan is-to other bloggers, friends and family.



And BTW-would you want another terra attack if it were to happen in YOUR backyard or to YOUR loved ones?!!!! Probably Not! :wtf:


FYI-Topoff 4- an exercise that mirrors what happened on 9/11 & 7/7!!!
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2506.shtml


FYI-Here's the ultimate plan:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5420753830426590918&q=RUSSO&total=5530&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

[Coexist]

103. I did not say I WANTED another 9-11, I said I am willing to RISK another 9-11

to have our Constitution restored, instead of giving up freedom to feel safe.

[f the letter]

119. Amen.

My sympathy continues to go out to the families of those killed and those slowly developing horrible lung tumors from being around the debris, but everyone else needs to leave it be.

[Beartracks]

78. No More Fear-Mongering!

Here's a t-shirt to that effect:

http://www.cafepress.com/tulsatees/3466850

:patriot:

[davekriss]

113. FLDem5 I am with you 100%

I've said the same myself time and time again. :)

[Coexist]

121. thanks.

I think our numbers are growing.

[Toots]

2. More than double that amount (3000) die every single frigging week from

tobacco related causes. Every single week , week after week, month after month, year after year, yet the Government actually supports the tobacco industry. Is America completely brain dead?

[Tesha]

4. All the evidence of late says...

> Is America completely brain dead?

All the evidence of late says: "A'yup!"

I think of this every time I see a
"Bush/Cheney 04" bumper sticker (and I
still see a *LOT* of them, some obviously
quite new).

Tesha

[Plucketeer]

55. Terror???

Our streets are FILLED with terrorist acts EVERY DAY! How many participants, innocent bystanders and law enforcement types have died as a result of gang violence??? I just DO NOT understand why this isn't percieved as a terrorist dilemma that blankets the whole nation!

Untold BILLIONS wasted on blowing up sand and recruiting more religious desperados to fight us "over there" when we're dying here right on our own turf! :crazy:

[Ghost in the Machine]

56. shhhh... Blackwater is going to start out on the gangs. The ones they can't kill

they'll recruit. Then they'll turn their focus on the clampdown of our liberties more. They have to remove what they perceive as their biggest threat first though and that would be the larger more organized gangs.

[Tesha]

3. Since the day it occurred, I've thought that the best thing America could have done...

Since the day it occurred, I've thought that the best
thing America could have done would have been to have
said to the world, particularly to Islamic militants:

"A mere pinprick. We'll get over it and go on with
our normal lives."

*THAT* would have really taken away their power.

And then we should have re-built the World Trade
Centers *EXACTLY AS THEY WERE BEFORE
THE ATTACK* (but without the asbestos and the
shabby fireproofing).

But instead, we did exactly the wrong thing. We went
insane. We entered this sort of fugue state where
"9/11 changed everything!". We became terrorized.
We played exactly into their hands. We left a gaping
hole in the ground like an open festering wound so
that Bush could use it to hurt us any time he felt
his grip on power slipping away.

Ahh well, sometimes you have leaders who know what
their doing and sometimes you have My Pet Goat.

Tesha

[Tyler Durden]

6. Best suggestion I've heard YET.

Excellent.

Stop treating WTC II like the Burning of the Reichstag. We are not Nazis. Yet.

[VWolf]

10. I had sorta the same idea

Except that my plan was to replace the two towers with three, where the middle "finger" was slightly taller than the other two.

If (and it's a BIG if) 9/11 was really perpetrated by Bin Laden and AQ, then we've played right into their hands by our government's actions here and in Iraq.

[Tyler Durden]

12. I think Bush gets down on his knees and daily thanks GOD for 911.

Without it, he'd have been a one-termer, and we'd have taken over the congress long ago.

[VWolf]

26. Oh, no doubt there nt

[comtec]

88. He'd have been a half termer

IIRC before 9/11 there was open talk of impeachment even THEN of * andc0. Not only that but The Florida election issues were starting to be brought up. I don't know how many people remember life before 9/11 but the US went from a gang busters economy, or just plain busted, in the 8 short months * was in office.

The Congress, even the other gopers were right pissed and they were getting ready to do something abuot it.

Knowing that makes me unable to believe that 9/11 was not LIHOP at the very least...

but as has been noted countless times all over the country.. we should have just REBUILT the towers, ONE FLOOR HIGHER just to show them we're better than that, we're stronger, and healthier, that we WON'T be intimidated, or worried, We'll use the original steel, and show them a bigger, BETTER WTC.......sadly * was the pResident, and we are where we are today :( I weep for the progress that could have been made in the world.

[WritersBlock]

137. Absolutely. As always, "who benefits from the crime?"

And thank you for saying what I've been thinking and saying - but far too privately - for years as well.

[BrklynLib at work]

108. My immediate reaction was also to rebuild the WTC exactly as it was...

Too many people are making too much money out of prolonging the agony...and encouraging divisiveness...That is why we are still in the midst of turmoil.

[mwb970]

5. America's bed-wetting overreaction to 9/11 is ridiculous.

Especially considering the incomparably more dangerous attacks on America and its Constitution launched every day by its "Commander-In-Chief" and his lawless cronies.

[Cybergata]

60. Why past time to move on !

When my middle school had a moment of silence on Sept 11, my twelve year old students were clueless about the reason why. Some had the idea that we were suppose to have the day off as a holiday, but they didn't know why, just that they wanted a day off from school.

I feel sorrow for the many families that lost loved one, but I feel that same sorrow for anyone who loses a loved one. I've lost my entire family that I grew up with, meaning parents and siblings. It was painful, but I moved on much quicker than this country has. Of course the Republicans didn't drag out the death of my loved ones for their own political gain. Every time that whore from NYC drags out 9/11, which is every time he opens his mouth, I want to scream.

[Recursion]

7. Conservatives are wimps, ultimately

Sure, they talk a big game, but let somebody actually attack the country and they fold like lawn chairs.

For Christ's sake, Orrin Hatch not only said "You can't enjoy civil liberties if you're dead", he said it in a room containing portraits of Patrick Henry and Nathan Hale. That's both cowardice and an absolute lack of shame.

We're (for a few more weeks at least) the most powerful country in the world. That means people will sometimes want to kill us, and occasionally succeed. But whenever I despair of our leaders' cowardice, I remind myself that a few dozen normal Americans did manage to prevent one of the planes from hitting its target, apparently messing up at least one of the hijackers enough to use him as a battering ram. So, these gutless putzes will keep hiding their cowardice behind their bombast, they will eventually die off, and the world will keep going.

[Tyler Durden]

8. I'm so tired of "King of the Hill" and "my dick's bigger than yours"

I don't think nations ever really grow up. They just evolve as little as they have to so as to stay alive for another economic or political cycle.

Nationalism: an out of date game where ultimately there are nothing but losers.

[sinkingfeeling]

9. Oh, man, I've been saying the same things in private for years! I applaud you for having the

nerve to post them here!

I read that awful column From Lou Dobbs yesterday, about how wearing an American flag lapel pin was keeping the memory of 9-11, and just about threw up my lunch. And Rudy-boy's constant bleating about it. One might think that the USA is the only country in the history of the world to have experienced an act of terrorism. The country has been turned into a quivering mass of jello by the Bush administration's utter fear!

[Tyler Durden]

11. OH but WE are worth SO MUCH MORE than the rest of the world.

Maybe it's about time we saw ourselves as everyone else sees us:

Self Centered, Self Important, Self Indulgent, and most of all: SELF DESTRUCTIVE.

Every day I am more thankful for having adopted the principles of Democratic Socialism while still in my teens. I wonder when everyone else will catch on.

[VWolf]

13. Heresy? Far from it!

The only people who would cry heresy would be those on the right who continue to benefit from the fear that 9/11 perpetuates.

For me, the only mention of 9/11 I want to hear would come from a new 9/11 commission, with the objective of getting all the unanswered questions answered.

[Tyler Durden]

15. I've gotten to the point where I don't CARE about the answers anymore.

Just impeach the bastards, stop the war, and get on with LIFE.

[VWolf]

29. Well you should care

because that's the bottom card in the entire house o' cards. Pull it out and everything else falls .... quickly.

My biggest hope is that someone in the know will eventually turn on the bastards - either a deathbed confession or under some serious witness protection scheme.

Even if that doesn't happen, we need to hit this administration from as many sides as possible, if only to neuter it for the remainder of its term.

[Beetwasher]

14. ANTHRAX WAS TERRORISM TOO!!

Don't forget the anthrax.

[Tyler Durden]

18. True, but diminished to the point of obscurity.

DOMESTIC terrorism is not on the Pig Bush's agenda or Babs' "Beautiful Mind." Sometimes I creep myself out thinking of the nest of dung beetles inhabiting that woman's skull.

And think also of all of the Womens' Clinics Bombings/Doctor Shootings/Threats. We have so much "Domestic Terrorism" that bin Laden is a blip.

[BuyingThyme]

16. Thank you.

[havocmom]

17. Attacks on women's health clinic and workers by those opposed to their operation

are also terrorism. Violence against someone due to political/cultural difference is terrorism.

Lynchings = terrorism

The list is a LOT longer than three incidents.

[Tyler Durden]

20. True, but my point is not making lists, but putting 911 in its proper perspective.

This isn't about Terrorism, it's about ARROGANCE. OUR arrogance in assuming that 911 has changed the Universe as we know it.

Only because the Pig Bush and his minions have made it so. AND because of the spineless craven lake of activity on the Democratic Party side.

ALL of the politicians have lost touch with what is really important to the PEOPLE.

[Terran]

19. Well said.

I too am sick of the political cult that has grown up around the sacred "3000" who died on 9/11/01, many of whom were not US citizens (a fact conveniently forgotten by most politicians and dumbass right-wingers).

"Patriotism" has always been in large part a matter of knee-jerk reaction and thoughtless parroting of buzzwords, but after that day the tendency seemed to accelerate a thousand-fold.

[Tyler Durden]

23. Emphasis on the "jerk" in my book.

[Arkansas Granny]

21. I remember an interview with the widow of one of the men killed

in WTC shortly after it happened. She was not in favor of a big memorial to the event or celebrations of the anniversary. She said that she feared the day would come when 9/11 would become a national holiday much like Memorial Day or Fourth of July and people would look forward to it as just a day to go have a picnic or something.

[CGowen]

22. "Most definitions of terrorism include only those acts which are intended to create fear or "terror"

, are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or utterly disregard the safety of non-combatants. Many definitions also include only acts of unlawful violence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

[rox63]

61. Then our government has been carrying out acts of terrorism on us for over 5 years now n/t

[raccoon]

24. your post kicks butt. K&R. nt

[The Stranger]

25. The Power of Nightmares (BBC) is REQUIRED VIEWING here on DU.

The Power of Nightmares

[w8liftinglady]

32. thanks for posting that.I'm watching it now

[lovuian]

27. lest not forget 911 led to Iraq war where over 3000 US soldiers

died and tens of thousands wounded and millions of Iraqis deaths and a huge deficit in the Trillions and the lowering of the dollar

and a recession and the Patriot Act losing Habeas Corpus and torturing of prisoners and wiretapping

you see everything is connected OOO

[T.Ruth2power]

28. Well done

The control of the debate is essential for the PTB and heresy is needed.

[Baby Snooks]

30. The real tragedy of 9/11

The real tragedy is that as our Constitution lies in ruin along with the World Trade Center, not one person has been held accountable for 9/11. Not one.

The victims of 9/11 no longer matter. Approximately 3,000 died in the collapse of the World Trade Center. The rest of us died in the collapse of our Constitution.

[bpeale]

34. that is profound & hits the nail right on the head

[redqueen]

31. You're perfectly correct, of course. Dwelling on it is letting terrorists win.

And that's the truth.

[KansDem]

33. I believe the fear and hate mongering that followed 9/11 was to ready us for the Iraq invasion.

Really, though, if we went after the real terrorists of 9/11, we'd be bombing the hell out of Saudi Arabia and the UAE. But these are Bush's business partners, so it was "hands off" and "let's get Saddam." Too many Americans would have scratched their heads and asked, "Why Saddam?" if we didn't ratchet up the fear and hate mongering toward Saddam and away from Bush's pals. Hell, look at how many still believe Saddam was behind 9/11 or that Iraq was the jumping-off point for al Qaeda.

It was all about the control of oil and 9/11 gave the Bushistas the "excuse" to go after Iraq.

I don't think it possible, given the intelligence agencies and services of the United States,* that 19 mideast "commandos" from the pals and business partners of the Bush Family were able to infiltrate the US and kill 3,000 of our citizens completely undetected. Sorry...I just don't buy it.

________
*Air Force Intelligence
Army Intelligence
Central Intelligence Agency
Coast Guard Intelligence
Defense Intelligence Agency
Department of Energy
Department of Homeland Security (post 9-11)
Department of State
Department of the Treasury
Drug Enforcement Administration
Federal Bureau of Investigation (who still hasn't credited http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm">OBL with 9/11)
Marine Corps Intelligence
National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency
National Reconnaissance Office
National Security Agency
Navy Intelligence

[bpeale]

35. our daily 5 minutes of hate, huh?

[KansDem]

36. No, just reality...

Just stating the facts and how they were ignored...

...you could say "our daily 5 minutes of reality."

[Prophet 451]

38. Fair enough

I do buy it, at least as a working hypothesis but there's certainly something highly suspicious about this admin's contempt for the concept of testing the evidence in public.

[Prophet 451]

37. I think I love you

I'm a Brit. Here, we've had dozens of terrorist attacks. The IRA alone bombed London on pretty much a monthly basis from the mid-seventies to the early-nineties. The result has been twofold: Firstly, we've perfected the art of gallows humour (example: The 7/7 Tube bombings came a day after London beat Paris to host the Olympics. First comment of quite a few londoners was something like "Didn't expect the French to be that pissed"). The second is that we've achieved a kind of equilibrium with it. Yes, terrorists are occasionally going to try and kill us and yes, a little caution is probably wise but there's no need to act like the sky is falling. John Kerry said something similar, that you'll never eliminate terrorism entirely (you can't un-invent a tactic) but you can reduce it to the level of a nuisence. He got eaten alive for that but he was right.

That said, WTC II also exposed something unwell in the American cultural psyche. There was instantly a sense of outrage but in the main, it wasn't due to the terrorist action itself (I could understand that), it was that America had been hit. The question we heard over and over for days, months and years afterward was "Why do they hate us?", the implication being that the USA should be loved. The dead became martyrs of a kind to the myth of America the sainted, always benevolent, always right and good, superior to all other nations simply by virtue of existing.

I'm told that one unofficial motto of Texas is "Remember the Alamo". The all but official motto of the Republican party is now "remember 9/11". The satirist Terry Pratchett once proposed a more honest version which could replace both: "Remember the atrocity comitted against us which will excuse and sanctify the atrocity we commit today. And so on. Hurrah.". Of course, it doesn't help the national psyche recover from what is effectively PTSD on a national scale when the Republican Party and their version of Pravda (Faux, although it applies to varying degrees to much of the MSM) have trotted out 9/11 as the rationale for absolutely everything. Terrified people do not think straight. Since the only difference still remaining between the Bush admin and Hitler is numbers, it's therefore in their interest to keep people terrified.

[Tyler Durden]

39. It has aways amused me that "PRAVDA" means "OFFICIAL TRUTH"...

Like TRUTH was not a absolute and anything less was UNTRUTH.

One of the most ADMIRABLE traits of the British has ALWAYS been the "Stiff Upper Lip." UP THE BRITS.

[Prophet 451]

43. Nah, we're just stubborn.

Here's the big secret of the British: The "stiff upper lip" is really just an excuse for our bone-headed stubborness. Winston Churchill once said that the British Bulldog's nose was angled backward so he could breathe without letting go. There's a reason that's our national mascot.

[Canuckistanian]

46. "pravda" is simply the Russian word for "truth"

There's no real meaning of "official" implied.

[Canuckistanian]

44. I've always seen 9/11 as an American "Kamikaze" event

And no, I'm not talking about the planes loaded with bombs used by suicide pilots in WWII.

The word "kamikaze" is translated as "god-wind" or "divine wind". The Japanese have felt for centuries that their country was protected by a divine wind that would destroy their enemies if attacked.

This concept came from two Mongolian attacks that were serendipitously beaten back by typhoons back in the 13th century. Ever since then, they've believed in a divine presence that protected Japan.

Then came the "Doolittle Raid" of April 1942. It was the first ever bombing of the mainland of Japan.
And it had a devastating effect on the Japanese.

All at once, it had shattered their illusion that Japan was invincible. It seemed inconceivable to them that any harm could make it's way to their shores.

I see 9/11 the same way. To America, their "divine wind" was their almost invincible armed forces and for some, probably a belief that God himself was protecting his "chosen people".

And even though, on the scale of major human disasters, this rates fairly low, it was magnified beyond all proportion by some as almost a holocaust.

[Prophet 451]

45. Yes, good analogy

Incidently, that "belief that God himself was protecting his "chosen people"? I work for Beliefnet in my day job, that kind of belief is terrifyingly widespread among the religious (make that, the "orthodox religious").

[fujiyama]

65. Good post

I especially like the Terry Pratchet comment.

[Prophet 451]

134. Oh, I'm a huge Pratchett fan n/t

[peacetalksforall]

74. Your post was great. Asking and answering why they

hate us is crap. And it is still prevalent today.

We are going through so many wars here.

The physical one of the news of killings.
The visceral one with the news of maimings, exiling, destroying, poisoning, plundering.
The ownership loss with the theft of our Constitution.
The outraged ones where we learn about the theft of our funds, the defunding to pay for Blackwater, the idea that the State Dept has an army of mercenaries and the mercenaries are running the State Dept.
The knowledge that their are so many liars and we are being played with propaganda that is so self serving to the barons.
To learn that are leaders are cowered and controlled.
To know that so many of us only care about sports, shopping, and serial shows.

It isn't pretty here and that doesn't even include talking about all the lemmings who have this unbelievable ability to buy the lies and live the lies.

We are not superior, we have never been superior, we prove that we aren't with the crap that comes out of us.

We once had a technological advantage because of and through our slaves, immigrants, and the orignal owners of this land.

There was once a culture here that was giving and considerate.

Now we can't believe, we can't trust, we can't count on - ANYONE - except ourselves and the idea that when push comes to shove the core of something will help us help ourselves and each other.

The Pratchett sentence is so truthful. I had never heard it. Thanks. Write some more.

"Remember the atrocity comitted against us which will excuse and sanctify the atrocity we commit today."

[Prophet 451]

135. More Pratchett

I think that, like Londo Mollari (of Babylon 5), Bush has killed the thing he sought. Because America was never just a place, it was a dream, a dream of equality and fairness and freedom. Yes, it's not real and never was but a good dream to try and live up to all the same. Perhaps that is the difference between a good leader and a bad one: A good leader challenges us to live up to our dreams, a bad leader encourages us to live down to our expectations.


As promised, more Pratchett:

Through the mouth of Havelock Vetinari, the consumate politician, expressing his view of human nature: "People shout that they want truth and justice for all. What they really want is an assurance that life will go on much as it did before and tomorrow will be very much like today". Humans adapt. It is both our greatest strength and our greatest failing that if it continues long enough, we will get used to repression, we may even come to like it.

The Sam Vimes "Boots" theory of social injustice: The difference between a rich man and a poor man can be understood by looking at his boots. A rich man remains rich because he has the capital to invest a hundred dollars in good boots which will last him a lifetime. The poor man buys cheap boots at ten dollars a pair which last for a season or two and then leak like hell when the soles give out. Therefore, over the course of a lifetime, the poor man will spend many times as much on boots as the rich man and still have wet feet.

On married life: "A marriage is made up of two people prepared to swear that only the other one snores".

The motto of the Ankh-Morpork Times: "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make ye fret"

"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

On God: "God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of his own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players (i.e. everyone), to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time"

Terry is one of those fantasy authors who uses fantasy as a way of satirising the real world. He's written over thirty books, the majority of which are both thought-provoking and funny, is an inveterate cat lover and spokesman for the Orangutan Protection League and is occasionally accused of "literature". Up until the rise of JK Rowling, he was Britian's most successful author and he has a quotebook coming out shortly.

[Beer Snob-50]

40. How about we treated this as it was

a criminal act and hunt down the man who masterminded this. this was not an act of war by another country. bill clinton had the right idea during the first WTC and ok city. He hunted down the culprits and brought them to justic.e

[RevCheesehead]

41. Then you'll have to call me a heretic, too.

And that should raise a few eyebrows in the Bishop's office.

[dysfunctional press]

42. drunk drivers are a MUCH bigger threat to our safety than terrorists.

but there's no money in it for the military-industrial complex.

[kath]

79. "no money in it for the military-industrial complex" --DING DING DING, we have a winnah!

The MIC is key -- ol' Ike sure knew what the hell he was talking about.

[cyberpj]

47. K/R. nt

[libodem]

48. You put this in excellent prospective

Very aptly expressed! Bravo! Take a bow.

[spanone]

49. live in fear, die in fear

[AntiFascist]

50. I'd like to point out some things about the conspiratorial angle...

WTC I is important because it may provide some of the earliest evidence of FBI complicity, if not something worse.

Also, some highly qualified architecturial and engineering types are seriously analyzing the possibility of controlled demolition of WTC 7 as well as the twin towers in "WTC II". The only feasible suspect in orchestrating this is a Kuwaiti-backed security firm which was previously involved in upgrading the network infrastructure of the buildings. Kuwait is the one nation in the ME which was directly threatened by Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

[petgoat]

54. Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth now has 190 A&E professionals

calling for a new investigation into the Ground Zero incident.

http://www.ae911truth.org/

Does this look like a gravity-driven collapse to you?

[Spinzonner]

59. What does the typical gravity-driven collapse of a 100-story building

look like ?

Tell me how you know what it should look like.

What is your background to make assumptions that should have credibility of what it SHOULD look like.

And please define what you mean by the Gravity-driven collapse as though they all would look the same regardless of the architectural (size, shape, structure, engineering, etc) characteristics differences and the initial damage that lead to the initiation of the gravitational results.

[petgoat]

82. Obviously that is an explosion, not a gravity-driven collapse.

There is no mechanism for the explosive expulsion of dust in a gravity
driven collapse.

Think of it. One floor falls on another. In doing so, it pumps air out the
window. It hits the second floor, arguably (if implausibly) pulverizing the
concrete of the second floor. But the air is already pumped out. How do
you expel the dust? Don't forget, all this putatively pulverized concrete
it restrained under vinyl flooring or carpet.

Let a soda cracker in your palm represent the concrete floor. Slap your
other hand, representing the falling upper floor, down on the soda cracker.
Does cracker dust fly all over the room? No.

[Spinzonner]

85. Of course

Crushing a soda cracker between your palms is perfect model for the dynamics of millions of tons of concrete and steel being compressed and falling.

Your arguments are so ludicrous and your qualifications for justifying their validity so non-existent it's absurd to even consider them.

[petgoat]

86. Crushing a soda cracker illustrates the sequence of events

Otherwise it is easy to be confused.

1. Upper floor tears, or is torn, from its mounting.
2. Upper floor falls toward lower floor, pumping air out the window
3. Upper floor strikes lower floor, allegedly pulverizing concrete

Since the air is pumped out before the concrete is pulverized, there's
no mechanism for expelling the pulverized concrete.

The only way the concrete could be ejected is by explosives.

Don't feel bad if you're slow to accept it. It took me months.

[Ignis]

51. Ah, refreshing sanity. K&R. (nt)

[catzies]

52. 9/11 took out a few BUILDINGS. Katrina took out a CITY.

The lack of perspective there (among many other things) has pissed me off for the past two years.

(In other words I agree with your post)

[adigal]

57. It was a tragedy, not sort of a tragedy

"3K people, plus the first responders who'll die from the aftermath. A Tragedy? Well, yes, of a sort and on a scale."

My husband is one of those first responders who is sick from the aftermath - it is not sort of a tragedy, on a scale. It IS a tragedy. Do you know anyone who died or is ill???

Having said that, this was NO excuse to go into Iraq and do what we did. I supported Afghanistan, although I am wondering now, but Iraq was absurd and a disaster.

[Tyler Durden]

62. What has happened to your husband is an individual TRAVESTY.

I don't minimize that for a moment. And the care of responders is a NATIONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

But 911 DOES NOT justify the horror we have made of Iraq and yes, Afghanistan. AND it has not justified the rape of our civil liberties.

I have three times the limit of nuclear radiation, thanks to my Navy time handling radio cobalt treatments as a corpsman, and on broken arrow teams. My chances of cancer are damned good. Is it a travesty what the government did to me for the sake of expediency? Yes. Is it a NATIONAL TRAGEDY? No.

I hope your husband recovers. The SCALE I was referring to was "personal," meaning the 911 incident itself was being treated by us as WORLD CHANGING. It isn't that. But that is another example of our national arrogance.

[yardwork]

58. You're absolutely right.

Like others here, I'd add more incidents to the list of "terrorist" attacks on the U.S., including the tylenol killer (still unsolved), the anthrax killer (got my opinion about that one....), the abortion clinic murders, the attack during the Atlanta Olympics (they finally captured Erik Rudolph, after he was sheltered for years in the mountains of North Carolina by a bunch of freeper-types).

Then there are the assassinations. Murdering John F. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Jr. - these were clear acts of terrorism aimed at intimidating the population and stopping people from demanding their rights.

Some of these acts of terrorism may have been planned and carried out - or at least aided and abbetted - by people within the U.S. government. Several of the known terrorists were extreme right-wing white men determined to impose their will on the entire nation. Some of these incidents will probably never be solved, so we're left to wonder...

Paul Wellstone? How many more?

In any case, this is not even the first time the United States faked an attack to justify our brutal invasion of a smaller, weaker nation. Remember the Maine.

[Tyler Durden]

63. And the Lusitania.

We kind of suck, long term, don't we?

[yardwork]

125. And the Gulf of Tonkin

The United States is an imperialist nation built on land grabs, genocide, slavery, and an attitude of entitlement. I was born here, I live here, and this is my country, but I have no illusions about it.

Edit - spelling

[fujiyama]

64. Those weren't the only three acts...

There have also been several acts of terrorism by fanatical RW Christians. Eric Rudolph for example bombed the Atlanta Olympics and various abortion clinics. The kind of mass shootings which are too common in the US, can also be considered terrorism in a loose sense.

Hell, domestic terrorist groups like the KKK operated freely for decades terrorizing blacks and others. And in many cases, local law enforcement and politicians supported them. And there was state sponsored terrorism against Native Americans and African Americans.

I agree that it is time to move beyond 9/11. I'm disgusted by Rudy Giulliani's "pimping" of the attack. However, I don't think it makes much sense to compare murderous acts by religious fanatics with natural events. Just as I don't like how RWers compare deaths in Iraq with traffic casualties. True, the families mourn just the same, but the simple fact is that murder is the responsibility of another individual or group of individuals and is often a cause for revenge in the world - causing a cycle of violence.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. During World War II, European cities suffered the equivalent of 10, 20, 30

WTC collapses in a single night of bombing.

We're like the adolescent who can't sympathize with a cancer patient because he's preoccupied with a zit on his nose.

[xxqqqzme]

67. Here, here!

The thing that irritated me the most, by the end of the day on Sept. 1, 2001, was you would have thought no other single person or country had ever experienced an attack by 'terrorists' in the history of the world. The US was beating its breast, rending garments and shearing hair over the events. And while yes, the events were shocking, horrific and ...well, terrorizing to be sure, other countries around the world had managed to carry on, go forward and be more careful & aware w/ acts of violence occurring, in those countries, on a fairly regular basis. This country went into a red, white & blue frenzy that has not waned - note the recent Barack lapel pin attack. There was no voice of reason to pull us back from that brink because there was no leadership to be found anywhere. Only opportunists pretending to be.

As I watch the events unfold that day, I kept remembering November 22, 1963. While that was the dark ages of communication compared to today. By the end of that horrible day, we all knew Lyndon Johnson had been sworn in as President and that he was back in Washington, DC and the government was stable. It gave us a foundation for the events and was calming.

Chickenshit Chucklenuts barely made it back to DC by bedtime on the West Coast, after hiding out all over the country that day. No short reassuring speech in front of the White House. A complete failure from December 12, 2000 through today.

[liberalsoldier5]

69. This thread is another sad reason why DU is mostly the fringe.

"Heresy" indeed. Let's hope nobody stumbles onto this site thinking we represent the Democratic Party in any way. Or anybody whose family member was killed in the attack. We'd be fucked.

Okay, now, as a proud mainstream Democrat, I'm going to try to explain this as easy as possible for the likes of "Tyler Durden" so they understand why the vast majority of his fellow Americans feel the way they do about 9/11.

On that day, OUR COUNTRY (not the big piece of grass we're on but our beloved nation) was attacked by a foreign ENEMY. Sick, twisted terrorists came to our country and MURDERED 3,000 innocent American civilians- all of them DELIBERATELY killed. Our planes and the innocent people in them were hijacked and used as fucking weapons against us! One of our nation's proudest landmarks was destroyed- New York City is now missing the freaking World Trade Center!! The attackers did not see us as red, blue, liberal, or conservative, but as AMERICANS. The fire, the smoke, the people screaming in the streets of NY and DC, the brave souls on Flight 93, the people jumping out of the towers to their death so that they didn't burn alive- ALL of this made 9/11 a unique, unbelievable, outrageous tragedy THAT CAN'T BE HONESTLY COMPARED TO ANYTHING ELSE.

Nothing. Not Katrina, not the tsunamis, not AIDS in Africa, not the bombing of women's clinics, not the Jena 6, not anything else because it was unlike anything else!

Americans of every political stripe were pissed because their countrymen and women were fucking murdered. The hunger for justice (if you need to call it revenge, fine) is a normal human desire. I, a Gore and Kerry voting Democrat, was pissed. I wanted justice. I put a flag outside my house after the attacks. And I have no regrets about it because MY COUNTRY and MY FELLOW AMERICANS were attacked and killed. I guess you can call it a simple feeling of patriotism (don't get too excited- I didn't support the Iraq war and don't want to bomb the shit out of Iran at all, I just love my country as I would expect a French person to love France).

If you really, truly can't understand any of this because you want one world government or whatever personal reason, then I'm afraid you just can't be helped.

[Solon]

73. Actually, the comparison between 9/11 and bombing women's clinics is similar...

both were committed by religious extremists attacking innocent people for a perceived slight against their religious beliefs. The only difference between them is a matter of scale, 9/11 caused a lot more deaths, while clinic bombings kill comparatively less people, but you cannot rightly say that one is completely unique to another.

[liberalsoldier5]

75. Good points.

Very true.

[Solon]

76. 9/11 was a tragedy on a world scale...

the reaction, by the Bush administration, was basically atrocious. The problem was that the United States lashed out blindly, with very little attention paid to the fact that 9/11 was a criminal act committed by criminals, not a total declaration of war by a state. If it were a declaration of war by a state, that state would have been Saudi Arabia, not Afghanistan. The problem is that, because of our overreaction, we have yet to catch Osama Bin Laden, think of how stupid it was to invade Afghanistan to catch ONE guy, and somehow we are supposed to be surprised that he got away?

What pisses me off about 9/11 and the subsequent years is the fact that there is no closure, no satisfaction, to this atrocity that was perpetuated by cold blooded killers. A part of me knew that we would never get total satisfaction, the people who had the most direct knowledge, and actually committed the acts were dead, at their own hands. However, I wanted Osama Bin Laden sitting at a defendant's table in federal court, televised on worldwide TV, while he faces his accusers, the prosecutors laying out their case, him being vigorously defended, and then, only then, have him locked up for the rest of his natural life if found guilty.

I wanted the United States to demonstrate to the world that we are a nation of laws, of principles, of justice, not a nation of vice, injustice, and mindless violence. We have hundreds of detainees who, as far as I can tell, have committed no crimes against our nation, who, until convicted in a court of law, are innocent, yet are themselves locked up indefinitely. Since 9/11 my attitude has shifted from frustration to horror, horror at what our government has done, at what it continues to do, at what has been wrought against so many innocents so unnecessarily. So much blood has been spilled, FOR NOTHING, for we, long ago, stopped fighting for 9/11, that tragedy has been devalued by the actions of our own government.

The rage I feel now is nothing like what I felt on 9/11, oddly enough, I didn't hear about 9/11 until almost noon, I slept in, wasn't due to go into work until 1 p.m. so I heard about it on the radio on the way to work. What I felt at the time is acute even after all this time, the feeling of loss, of shock, hell, for a good 3 or 4 hours, I felt nothing, its hard to describe, but I had to work that day, and just went about my routine at work, mindlessly repeating the motions of working, and just being blank. It was like losing a family member, though I knew no one personally who was killed on 9/11, it still felt like I did. I guess it took a while for it to really sink in, the shock, horror, seeing the images later that night, when I got off work, just hit me, that's when I felt rage.

It wasn't until months and years later that the rage, the anger, and the frustration, kept building up, not because of 9/11 but because of the mindless reaction to it. The questions kept on being asked in my mind: Where the fuck is Bin Laden? Why the fuck are we locking up and killing people that didn't hurt us? Why the fuck are we fighting a war against a criminal act?

I will admit that I wasn't a huge fan of Bush, I voted for Gore after all, but I thought that maybe, just maybe, he would have done the right, just, thing, and actually could have used 9/11 to turn a tragedy into a vehicle for POSITIVE change. Instead he fucking blew it, BIG TIME, we had candlelight vigils for the victims of that tragedy from Tokyo to Tehran, from Rio de Janeiro to Paris. We literally had the world watching our back for us at the time, and they felt the same as we about 9/11. Now, 6 years later, its an opportunity blown and animosity reigns. Bush, in all his stupidity, shortsightedness, and fucking selfishness, blew it all, whether by design or accident, the United States is now a pariah nation, a nation of criminal action, a nation of terrorism. 9/11, for all the rhetoric about it "changing everything" hasn't changed a damned thing, and THAT is a tragedy.

[Tyler Durden]

96. Our ARROGANCE demands this be a "WORLD SCALE" Tragedy.

The rest of the world must think we are nuts, and with good reason. Kosovo, Sarajevo, Rwanda, Iraq, AIDS...the list of true GLOBAL tragedies goes on and on...on that scale, we didn't even make the "Top 10."

The death of every man diminishes me, EQUALLY. But we continue to feel "some are more equal than others."

Where did we get this ARROGANCE?

[Solon]

106. I was thinking about the fact that up to 50+ nations lost citizens on that day...

while it wasn't the most devastating single attack or criminal act against civilians in even recent memory, especially in numbers of casualties, I think you would be hard pressed to find a single act in recent memory that has affected this many different nations directly.

[Tyler Durden]

109. And how often do you hear that?

Frankly, except for the individual family tragedies, this has no more REAL TRUE NON-PROPAGANDA IMPACT on anyone than taking the sum total of all airplane fatalities for the last 10-20 years as a lump sum.

This is essential a gruesome publicity stunt. Frankly, my civil liberties were worth a lot more than that.

[Solon]

111. Never, and that was the point of my post...

It was, in large part, Bush's arrogance and American attitudes that alienated us from the other victim nations of 9/11. It seems to me that you took my subject line, ignored the rest of the post, and then misconstrued it.

[Tyler Durden]

112. Actually, I'm agreeing with you.

Sorry if a little too much of my rage on this subject crept in.

[Solon]

114. I share in that rage, its okay...

By the way, Hijacking Catastrophe has just started on FSTV, an excellent documentary that is pertinent to the subject at hand. I've been suffering a resurgence of rage, if that makes sense, but what really is the focus of it is the missed opportunities after 9/11. I don't know how this will sound to you, but after 9/11, the Afghan war, and then the beginning of the Iraq war, I realized that we suffered an even greater loss than the loss of life on 9/11. Bush squandered the sympathy the world showed on 9/11 to advance an agenda of American Domination rather than an agenda of world peace. I'm not saying it would have been easy, but it would have been easier to advance diplomacy and peaceful resolutions to conflicts such as the Israeli/Palestinian, ending Iraqi sanctions, normalized relations with Iran, etc. But NONE of that happened, instead we are on the brink of war with Iran, pissed off even some of our closest allies, and have killed over a million people, and for what? Bush spit on the graves of the dead of 9/11 and continues to spit on the graves of the victims of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and it disgusts me.

[Tyler Durden]

115. Bush took used this opportunity to stage the world's biggest prick waving contest...

WAR.

If that had happened under Al Gore, I like to think he would have used that opportunity to secure a peace that could have lasted generations, until the very idea of a war sounded stupid and vile.

If there is a god, may he/she/it damn The Pig Bush and all of his minions AND SUPPORTERS. You don't serve in the army of Mordor without bearing the mark and the stink of Sauron.

[Solon]

117. It is said that war is the result of a failure of diplomacy...

and that is true, for those who have TRIED diplomacy, Bush, on the other hand, uses war as if it were diplomacy, the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and this entire "War on Terror" which is, itself, a fucking farce, aren't failures of diplomacy, they are tools for world domination by the Bush Administration. They view the world as a big chessboard and all of us, citizens of the world, as pawns, and they treat us as such.

[Tyler Durden]

118. Bush and his family are perfect examples of "The New Elite."

They are clueless as to the thoughts and needs of the working classes and poor (Bush has said precisely this: that he doesn't really understand poor people). They feel we are the cannon fodder to use in advancing their ideas and increasing their wealth.

They have forgotten that we all die; naked and broke, and have decided that like Tutankhamen, they will take it all with them.


If there really is a Rapture, these folks are in for one HELL of a shock.

[liberalsoldier5]

124. I'm not ashamed at all.

If al Qaeda killed a 100 people in Chicago and 100 people in Switzerland, I'd feel grief for all 200 but more grief and more anger over the loss of my fellow Americans. And I'd expect the same of the Swiss. As I said, I'm not a one world government advocate or "citizen of the world" type. I'm an American, and I felt the same way about 9/11 that my grandparents felt about Pearl Harbor. And I fully supported the war in Afghanistan, as do most people of both parties, as well as non-Iraq coalition countries like Canada, France, and Germany. If that wasn't a just war, then all those Afghani girls must just be faking those smiles that you are now allowed to see.

[baby_mouse]

130. WHY would you feel more grief over the American victims?

What is your REASONING behind the increased value of their deaths? What CAUSES it? What it the logically explainable and analyzable path of events in your brain?

[datasuspect]

104. bombast

next.

[Tyler Durden]

110. Thank you too.

Get kind of SICK of 911911911911 24/7 don't you?

Next someone will use it to sell cheap commemorative medalions or coins.

Wait a minute...



Too late.

[DemGa]

126. Agreed, and thanks for writing this....nt

[baby_mouse]

131. Why do you think an absence of nationalism is equivalent to one world government? NT

[upi402]

71. Yes. TV news is a propaganda organ of the p-nac elites.

Without it, our totems, icons, and sacred symbols would not be dabbed in tears and rubbed in our faces so effectively.
This has happened all through history.
The 4th estate is a threat to the republic now.

[NoGodsNoMasters]

72. I hear what you're saying...

I don't know if I'd put it that way exactly, but I agree with a lot of you're sentiments. i think the root of this lies in a more fundamental issue. America has been incredibly insulated for a VERY long time. There hasn't been war, real war, on the home front since Lincoln defeated the Confederacy. Moreover, the American media is INCREDIBLY biased (If you don't take my word for it read Chomsky's Manufacturing consent or watch the documentary), we live in relative prosperity, even though thats' in major decline, it should be no wonder why most Americans can't connect the dots. People who are comfortable, people who don't have to deal with invasion, insurrection, or serious visible poverty like we see in the third world. Even the World Wars were far away, and our economy held up well, at least compared to England or Germany. The horrors of warfare and terrorism are artificial to most Americans, which is why this 9/11 mania persists. The subconscious thought is "This CAN'T be happening to US!!!!" Part of why Europeans have a better perspective is that so many different countries are forced to find ways to live together, we're geographically isolated. Europeans can still remember war in they're own cities and towns, it's very real, so they also take memorial days MUCH more seriously than Americans do. I only hope it doesn't take warfare in our own country or africa-style poverty to shake us out of this funk. I totally agree with 99% percent of what you say, the American people need to see themselves as part of a world community. I see the preoccupation with the WTC as a symptom of this greater ailment.

[JMDEM]

80. Hey man -- let's let all the murderers and rapists and child molesters off the hook too, right?

I mean what is done is done, right? And far more people are killed by cigarettes than from these guys. And far more people die in Africa than from these guys. So what't the use of prosecuting them?

[Tyler Durden]

93. Oh give me a break.

You're doing exactly what we accuse the Republicans and Neocons of doing: Cherry picking a word or phrase and turning it into a philosophy. I won't even quote the logical fallacies you just made.

Read the whole thing and the responses again: you're being silly.

[petgoat]

128. Your reply assumes that the Bushcists are not the guilty parties.

Would you not agree that if they were, letting them off the hook
would be a mistake?

[baby_mouse]

132. Better still, why not establish a 500 mile high monument commemorating EVERY EXECUTION.

Lets tear down the Statue of liberty and replace it with a statue of a gigantic abused child complete vacant, despairing expression, gazing out forever across the Atlantic, begging only an explanation.

[Truthiness Inspector]

81. You didn't die, so it's all good.

[Tyler Durden]

94. I don't know WHERE I saw ANY of this as GOOD.

"It's all good." Welcome to cliche land.

[Major Hogwash]

84. So, because PNAC was able to pull off the greatest attack on the US, forgive the traitor Bush?

Is that what you're saying?

Because the 9/11 Commission was a whitewash - and anyone who has ever studied even just a little bit about what happened on that awful day knows that Bush, at the least, allowed the attack on America to happen, if not actually involved with it to make it happen.

[Tyler Durden]

95. I didn't say that EITHER.

I SAID, on a scale of atrocities, this one didn't even make the world-wide top 10. Individual deaths from this are a travesty and tragic, but to continue to treat this as some sort of world-changing event of cosmic scope buys into the PNAC and bin Laden agenda.

Aren't your tired of being used as a PAWN? I am.

[obxhead]

87. not the best writing...

But you are correct in every respect.

You get a kick and rec from me.

[Tyler Durden]

97. Thank you (I think.)

They can't all be "J'accuse!"

[whistle]

89. It is the neocon goal as outlined in PNAC that they want the world population

...to shrink to 500,000,000 people as soon as possible. And they have already decided which 500,000,000 is to survive

[bos1]

90. this is news to me. link? nt

[Roland99]

92. The Iraq War has damaged us more than the attacks of 9/11

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x797595

[Swamp Rat]

98. You want to care for the living? How about New Orleans?

We could use a lot more care.

[Tyler Durden]

99. You couldn't be more right, and could not agree with you more.

"The Ground Zero Shrine" and the "Holy Martyrs" (hold your indignation: the deaths were individually tragedies and travesties, for the 20th time) is a very convenient distraction from the issue that 1% of the cost of the war to "git them terrarists that blew up New York!" would fix the NOLA levies, rebuild all the houses, and make their schools the envy of the nation.

Let us all sing sad songs on the destruction of the WTC; fine distraction from the work to be done.

[vssmith]

100. Can Rudy still count on you for your vote?

[Tyler Durden]

101. HA HA. VERY funny.

Naw.

[MethuenProgressive]

105. "Let's remember the dead, but let us care for the LIVING: there is more profit in it."

Hear, hear.
:applause:

[BrklynLib at work]

107. So true. As long as we allow the likes of BushCo, Ghouliani and the others of their ilk to milk

9/11, and manipulate everyone and everything based on the fear they arouse with it...we will NEVER be able to rid ourselves of the Fascist, Corporatist regime that is threatening to undermine the Constitution and everything that our country would like to think it once stood for.

[npincus]

120. agree w/the spirit of the OP, but 9-11 was more than a tragedy "of a sort"

for those of us who live in NY and the tri-state area, whose loved ones commute on buses, trains, cars every day, who ride through tunnels across Hudson and East Rivers, whose daily loves were forever changed by this unrpecedented successful terrorist attack, and whose fury at B*sh and other 9-11 exploitation beneficiaries continues, aided by the complicit MSM and other bottom-feeders.

So, in total agreement it's time to move on, but there really is no context to put this monumnental terrorist act and the ripple effect it continues to have on the lives of so many.

Tom Friedman had a great column on the subject- I think it was called "9/12". Worth digging up and reading... it supports the spirit of the OP.

[Tyler Durden]

122. Of a sort refers to the personal tragedy felt by New Yorkers...

...and by any person on earth who knew or was relate to someone in WTC or a now ill first responder.


I decry the arrogance that makes 911 "#1 with a bullet" on the World Disaster Hit Parade. 10 times as many people died in the last earthquake in Qom, Iran. I grieve with the victims' friends and families as every man's death diminishes me, but "The World Changed after 911"? Only because the Neocons USED it to justify their war crimes.

[renie408]

138. I agree. Lives were 'forever changed' because Bush had so much invested

in keeping people freaked out over 9/11. Christ, more people die EVERY DAY than died on 9/11. Which tragedy is 'worse'...3000 people dying due to a terrorist attack, or the 108,000 people who have died since from a lack of health insurance? Or the 100,000 people who have been murdered since 9/11? Or the death of the guy I mention downthread who died on the same day as 9/11 in a car accident in North Carolina?

9/11 has changed our lives forever because we let it. We allowed the fear generated by the attacks to make us scared of our shadows. So we passed the Patriot Act and attacked Iraq and now I can't take my mousse on an airplane. THAT is why lives are changed forever. People die all the time and it sucks. People are murdered all the time and it sucks. But this concentration on and veneration of 9/11 is weird and unhealthy.

[Tyler Durden]

139. we are in total agreement.

That is my thesis: that the fixation on this issue is wrong, and is being encouraged by those who do not have our interests at heart.

[petgoat]

140. That's why Truthists are pushing to expose the lies and take the issue away from them. nt

[LWolf]

123. 16,037 people were murdered in the U.S. in 2001.

Another 16,000+ every year since then, until 2006, when the figure hit 17,000+.

We kill more than 5 times the number of 9/11 casualties ourselves here within our own borders every year, without ever straying outside to wage war against "enemies."

Perhaps we should focus on the culture of violence at home before we start acting as judge and jury for the violence of others. Unless, of course, that's the point: to keep "them" as the bad guys, and distract us from our own atrocities.

Edited to add link:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

[MrMickeysMom]

127. Hello, you've missed your own point-

At the end of your OP, you have but 2 options-
Bush Lied
or
You're an idiot.

Much more to do with "moving on" but no room to consider anything further. No interest or caring about any possible destruction of the world trade centers..., Would you care to stretch yourself a little further?

Bonus round Options:
1) Bush Lied
2) Some people who act like they're idiots, are not, they suddenly see a third option
3) Bush Lied, and you give a shit about one of his biggest lies because there are enough reasons- First, BushCo ignored 50 different warnings, 2nd, BushCo shut people up who warned thenmn about planes hitting the WTC because it was an easy path to 2 wars and unbelievable war profiteering.

[B Calm]

133. The only thing I fear about 9/11 was that the Bush Crime Family did it!

[renie408]

136. I remember that on 9/11, a guy was driving his pickup to work and was killed on a state highway...

near us. It was a terrible accident and he left a wife and three kids behind. I remember feeling bad for his family that he had to die on THAT day, because forever after, 9/11 would overshadow their personal family tragedy. I also remember thinking in the days afterward when everybody was going on and on about how tragic the loss of life at the WTC was that loss of life ANYWHERE is tragic to somebody. Why are the people who died in the WTC collapses heroes? The firemen and policemen that went in there to save lives and died, yes, those are heroes. The people that tried to take control of the flight that went down in Pennsylvania; yeah, those people are heroes. A bunch of people who went to work one day and their building fell on them? That's sad. But they aren't heroes. I am not even clear as to why their relatives deserve large sums of money. Any more than the relatives of the man who died on the highway deserve a large sum of money.

And here is my ultimate confession....I also remember thinking around 9/13-9/14, "Well, that could have been a lot worse." I don't care if it sounds awful, it was 3000 people and it could have beeen 30,000. I kind of feel like we were ahead of the game. If the government had less invested in keeping us scared and focused on the TRAGEDY and more invested in helping this country heal, things would have gone MUCH differently. But Bushco wants to keep 9/11 an open and festering wound.