Is the UAW suicidal?

[cgrindley]

Poll question: Is the UAW suicidal?

[bryant69]

1. I think if unions always punk out than there's no point to unions

I don't know if this is the ideal fight; but it's better than punking out.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Kelly Rupert]

3. Striking for the sake of "not punking out"

or "not surrendering to management," and with no other considerations, really doesn't often end up well for the union. Labor negotiations are serious, and if the union is approaching it like a test of balls instead of a multi-billion-dollar negotiation, they're just screwing over themselves, their members, and their employer.

[bryant69]

7. Yes but I assume that's not the only other consideration

I assume if they have let things get to this point its because there is a real point to be made. I haven't read the union contracts and I don't know all the ins and outs of this situation; but given a choice between trusting management and the union, I trust the union.

Bryant

[monktonman]

5. Punking out huh?

My mother is set to retire from GM in four months.
She busted her ass for thirtry fucking years.
We I meet her at the union hall tonight,
I'll tell her Bryant69 says "dont punk out" that will solve everything.

I'm sure she'll appreciate that.

[bryant69]

6. So you think unions should cave to management?

When should unions stand up to management? After your mother retires?

Bryant

[monktonman]

10. No, It's your words that suck

Punking out or feeding their families?
You decide.

Also, perhaps you'd like to say something negative about
GENERAL MOTORS instead of the working men and women of the UAW?

[bryant69]

11. I'm sorry to have upset you. I will cease discussion of it. n/t

[sandnsea]

13. details please

That would be great to have a better idea of where the workers are coming from.

[alcibiades_mystery]

18. Has anyone else faced significant risk during that 30 years

in order to secure a safe retirement for your mother? Has anyone else put their own retirement on the line in all of those thirty years in order to assure safe working conditions, good wages, and strong benefits for your mother? Does your mother owe the same risk and consideration to the younger workers in the union that did so much for her? Or is it time for her to think only of herself, union be damned?

This is an open question. But your focus on your mother's own situation leaves out the larger situation of the collective, which is the duty of the union and each of its members in any case. You don't get to reap the benefits of the collective struggles of others, but then demure when your own benefits are at stake. This is the concept foreign to a particular brand of American individualism (an ideological concept, in any case). But it goes to the heart of the question.

In any case, "not punking out" is - I agree with you - a silly reason, when phrased that way. The question is whether the union will continue to have negotiating leverage vis-a-vis the company.

[monktonman]

27. oh so you read the other post.

Keep in mind these younger workers and blah, blah, blather
wouldnt have the jobs they have today if not for people like my mother.
in fact, I dont even belong to a union but I'm on my way to the hall to meet her
and picket with everyone else. What are YOU doing. Dont answer, I already know.

also HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY CONCERN FOR MY MOTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
are you fucking kidding me??
next thing you know you'll be mad at military families for saying they want
their kids to come home.

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. You need to calm down

You're inventing an enemy and a fight where there is none. Deep breaths.

[monktonman]

40. You need to be a little more sensitive

[alcibiades_mystery]

65. I can't account for every imagined insult

That's for sure.

[Romulox]

8. American consumers have been punking out US workers for 30 years or more...

Both the Left and Right have abandoned labor.

[sendero]

2. I think...

... the UAW is finally in the position where they feel they have little to lose.

Fact is, management plays HARD BALL every chance they get, and most of GM's problems are MANAGEMENT based.

Maybe GM should have compromised more.

[me b zola]

4. More workers need to demand to be treated fairly

UAW, :yourock:

[mvccd1000]

9. Not a UAW fan

While I do appreciate a lot of unions, the UAW is not among them. I grew up in Michigan, and have well over 200 years of GM work within my family (Great-grandparents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, sister, etc.) I spent seven years working for GM in both union and non-union facilities. All I have seen out of the UAW is an interest in slowing down work and protecting people who have no business taking money from GM.

My stories start with my grandfather working as a drill press operator at a Chevy plant in Flint, MI, when the UAW organized the plant. Before the union came in, he and another guy had to drill a combined 90 flywheels per hour, and had no trouble doing so. After the plant was organized, the UAW said 90 was too many - 75 was the new limit. They never made that quota again. His co-worker was a union steward, and had no trouble walking off and letting flywheels pile up on the floor while he wandered around the plant.

I used to spend a lot of time in junkyards, as old cars are a hobby of mine. Invariably, if I was there on a weekday, there would be a factory worker in there, bragging that someone had clocked him in at work. "I'm UAW, they can't fire me."

Later, I worked at a test facility where I had to deal a lot with the factory to get prototype parts sent to me for testing. The UAW workers on the loading dock had no problem shipping $50,000 worth of parts with a delicate coating all loose in one box. By the time they got to me, I had $50,000 worth of paperweights. This happened numerous times with various one-of-a-kind prototype hardware, until I got so fed up that I called the supervisor. The dock workers filed a grievance against ME for complaining that they were ruining unique test parts! It got so bad that the engineers would go and spend their own money after work to Fedex the parts to me so they would arrive in a usable condition.

When I went to that factory for a school, the tour guide would point to people sleeping or reading the paper. I asked why they were still employed, and he said, "UAW - we can't fire them."



Any union that protects workers like the ones I have heard about and personally encountered all my life is not a union I will support. I think GM should have let the Delphi strike of '97 break the back of the UAW once and for all.

The UAW is absolutely strangling GM, and they're too stupid to see that this will bring about their own demise as well.


Just so no one thinks I'm anti-union, my mom is a teacher. They have a great union. My best friend is a commercial diver. Again, a great union that makes sure that well-trained, productive employees are rewarded for doing their job in a safe environment.

A good union can be a good thing. A bad union can drive a company bankrupt. I just hope the UAW dies before GM does.

[sandnsea]

12. Everybody has bad union stories

Even teachers and commercial drivers. We stand together or fall separately.

[mvccd1000]

28. True, but when 100% of the stories are bad....

.... you might have to consider that the union itself is a problem.

There are good unions. The UAW is not one of them.

[sandnsea]

31. Thanks for your concern n/t

[monktonman]

35. when 100% of the welfare stories are bad......

your listening to talk radio. same with the unions.
No one ever has anything nice to say about unions especially those who dont belong to one.


How about this....
When I needed a loan to go to school, the UAW helped me out.

When I needed serious medical attention when I was a kid, the UAW payed for my
grandparents to fly to New York to be with me not knowing if I was going to live.
They put them up in a nice hotel for six days and didnt ask for a dime.

When I was beat up by the cops and thrown in the can for smoking weed,
the UAW sent a lawyer to court to defend me.

I could go on but you get the point.

[mvccd1000]

68. So I buy a new car to pay for you to break the law?

No wonder GM is going broke.

[monktonman]

76. I dont work there

And ah yeah your paying too much for a car
so I can break the law.

Thats just dumb

Actually when you buy a union made car, some of that money goes towards helping people. Imagine that.
Even the sixteen year old who makes a poor choice.
Do you think I should have gone to jail for smoking a joint?

[Unrepentant Fenian]

112. Huh???

Break WHAT law?????

[Richard Steele]

109. When 100% of the stories are bad, it's time to turn off FoxNews. nm

[cgrindley]

41. There are some people I don't want to stand with

the asshole who fucks the pooch instead of doing his fair share at the metal lathe. I want management to fire him. And I want unions to focus only on the important issues--pay, pensions and medical benefits. Everything else can go to blazes for all I care.

[sandnsea]

47. Retribution for union activity

is something the union absolutely has to focus on.

What a bunch of tools living in terror that they haven't worked themselves completely to death for the corporation. :crazy:

[NashVegas]

84. Seems Like a Little Peer Pressure Is Needed

These people are abusing loopholes the way some tax lawyers and other white collar workers abuse loopholes. "One bad apple ..." applies, but the bunches need to apply pressure - in both cases.

[Romulox]

14. It's all a matter of WHOSE ox is being gored.

There are always plenty of Hondas and Toyotas parked in the teacher's parking lot of any k-12 school across this nation.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. Because, perhaps, they make better cars for better prices?

:shrug:

People want a market? Fine. There's your market. Why a consumer should pledge allegiance to a nation-state is a great mystery from the perspective of a market. Capitalism doesn't give a shit about nation-states. A nation-state is a weird residual effect of feudalism from the perspective of the market.

But we all want to be capitalists today. Fine. I'll be a capitalist. That means:

1) Immigration laws are bullshit, a statist/control economy attack on the free movement of labor in a marketplace. Let the market decide. Finis. Fuck borders. Borders are an artificial restraint on the market. Let's be capitalists and get rid of borders altogether, for labor as well as capital.

2) Allegiance to a nation state is an artificial constraint, indeed, an irrational consideration. I don't give a shit where a Nissan is made. I compare on exchange value, period. Whatever inequities develop on that basis will be moved to equilibrium in the long term, and that's as it should be. If that means millions of Americans are out of work, well, there were previously millions of unemployed and underemployed in other countries who are now working (we're moving towards equilibrium). American can't compete? Work for less money and make better products. Period. It's a market correction.

You want to be a capitalist? Fine. That's what it looks like.

[Romulox]

25. Just like non-union teachers make better teachers, and for less pay!

:sarcasm:

Allegiance to a nation state is an artificial constraint

Then I no longer want to pay for your Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. A "free market" means every man for himself.

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. That's exactly what a free market means

So, do we like the concept?

[Romulox]

54. So you are punishing auto workers for the sins of capitalism by buying a Kia? Gotcha.

How silly to lecture me about the evils of capitalism when others on this thread are promoting consumerism as the only measure of what it means to be an American and the very Democratic party itself has sworn allegiance to laissez faire capitalism.

[alcibiades_mystery]

67. I'm not punishing anyone

I'm buying a Kia or an Accord or an Altima because it is the best value on the market.

That's the system we "fight for," so now we get to eat it. No half-assing now.

[Romulox]

71. Yep. The same way I "fight" to keep my own taxes lower, to cut public services, and

default on public pension plans. :sarcasm:

The old and the sick are a bad deal when there are so many healthy, energetic foreign young people on the market. This is the system we fight for, after all.

Every man for himself, and devil take the hindmost!

(If you can't tell, I totally reject your framing of the issue as an either/or choice between unfettered capitalism absolute collectivism. We seem to have no problem with government administered, publicly funded care for the elderly, for instance, or massive public subsidy for agriculture and defense spending under our so-called "free market" economy.)

[ret5hd]

15. A union is the emplyees "lawyer"...

when an employee is fired, it goes to arbitration.
the company presents its case, the union presents its case, and the arbitrator decides.

if management can't fire somone for sleeping, it's managements fault. they need to fire their reps that present the arbitration.

Don't blame the union for doing the job it is LEGALLY REQUIRED to do.

[backscatter712]

21. My hypothesis - we're seeing this BECAUSE unions are weakened.

That's right. Not because unions are too strong, but because unionization and union actions are too difficult because of the legal structure in this country.

Allow me to explain.

When unions first came into being, anyone who worked could found a union - they just got together with a few coworkers and declared themselves to be a union. If the union was a big enough fraction of the workers in a plant, they could significantly disrupt operations if the workers were being mistreated too badly, thus forcing management to deal with them.

This also had the effect of making unions earn their keep - if they got corrupt, or the leadership made them look bad because of agreements in the above post, or the unions didn't represent their workers well enough, the workers could turn around, ditch that particular union and form a new union.

Then came regulation. Taft Hartley and such. Now, to form a union, there's a huge, messy, unwieldy process to go through, there has to be an election, and there's plenty of opportunities for hostile forces like the plant management to throw a monkey wrench into the works - there has to be elections, which are supposed to be fair, but frequently aren't. There's tons of paperwork, and rules, and if you slip up, you lose. That's why Wal-mart has been able to so successfully block its stores from unionization.

On top of that, it ended competiton between unions. Now there's just the established unions, and if they don't fly right, there are no alternatives. So the existing unions become corrupt. The negotiations between union and management become a joke, the management offer useless concessions (like "Workers can now have a reduced quota of flywheels if we switch to shittier health insurance.") and we see the mess we have today.

My prescription for improvement would be to repeal Taft Hartley and the other union regulation acts that have made such a mess of unions in this country. As for the unions and workers themselves, I'd recommend some civil disobedience. Wal-mart workers, for example, could declare themselves to be an informal union without going through the hoops that Wal-mart has been using to sabotage unionization, picket the stores, illegally (this is known as a wildcat strike;) which will probably get them fired; continue to picket the stores and try to get the customers to shop elsewhere, costing Wal-mart money, then harass the hell out of the scabs they hire as replacements. (Oops, did I say that with my outside voice? :evilgrin: ) Even without legal recognition, they could make life a living hell for Wal-mart's management, if they're willing to sacrifice a shitty $8/hr job (they could easily get another $8/hr job elsewhere while they picket.)

Am I far off the mark on this?

[Kolesar]

46. Sounds like right wing bullshit I heard on the local right wing radio station...eom

[mvccd1000]

64. Thanks.

I posted first hand experiences, and I've never been on a radio station.

I also specified that the UAW is the ONLY union that I hold in this low regard.

Is it not possible that there is a bad union - they're automatically all good just because they are unions?

[Pathwalker]

49. Did your family then have the INTEGRITY to refuse

their retirement pensions, vacations, safety equipment and health care coverage - or did they take the money and run? Your family would have had none of those things without the unions.

[mvccd1000]

63. I disagree that they would have had none of these things.

I've had union and non-union GM workers in my family. They all got retirements. My mom gets a retirement because of a teacher's union, which - as I stated in my post - is a good thing.

I specified that the UAW is the ONLY union that I hold in this low regard.

Is it not possible that there is a bad union - they're automatically all good just because they are unions?

[Blue_Tires]

51. wow...just wow

"I just hope the UAW dies before GM does."

Do you have the first example of a "bad union driving a company bankrupt?"

I think you took a wrong turn...GM scapegoatting the UAW for THEIR strategic/financial fuck-ups is nothing new...And even though you're a new poster, I'd SWEAR I've read elements of your urban legend-filled screed on other car sites I post/lurk on, because they ALWAYS have that "tour guide pointing to sleeping/goofing off UAW workers" line...BTW you forgot the "UAW janitor making $85/hr" meme from three years ago to make your post complete...

nice try

[mvccd1000]

62. If you post on a Pontiac or an Olds site, you may have seen me.

I have no problem posting my first-hand experiences with the UAW anywhere the topic arises.

Is it not possible that there is a bad union - they're automatically all good just because they are unions?

[Blue_Tires]

79. you can find plenty of agreement at

www.recalltheuaw.org, which i have no doubt you are quite familiar with...

just for fun, i googled words like 'uaw', 'sleeping', etc. just to jog my memory, and lo and behold, dozens of these second-hand stories started popping up all with the similar theme of touring a plant, seeing a sleeping employee, and the tour guide shrugging it off nonchalantly...Are we supposed to believe it actually happens THIS often? Because every employee at every plant must be hard asleep during their shift if there are THIS many stories from so many different people about it (provided of course they have a crumb of truth)..But of course once some internet memes get out there, they never seem to die...

quoted post from your fav. site...and i've seen variations of it posted at autoblog, autoextremist, leftlanenews, camaroz28.com, svtperformance.com, and the list goes on...But I'm certain that your version is completely factual
===========================
===========================
Posted: Wed. 02/23/05 01:24 PM
From: Former Union
City: Royal Oak, MI USA
Subject: Selling_the_UAW
Comments: I have also worked for both Honda and GM. For one, people at Honda aren't allowed to be lazy like up here. At break, line goes down. When break ends, it starts whether you are there or not. You aren't allowed to start it at your convenience. People are not smoking or drinking or goofing off at the line like I have seen up here. At Honda, when a line goes down people are cleaning up their work areas making it a clean respectable place, not sitting on their butt collecting money because it isn't their job to keep the place looking respectable. I come back up to work for GM and it is a completely different world. While at PCC I was told I needed to call someone from the Union if I needed to bring a part into my office to complete my job. Are you kidding me? I wasn't taking "Production" work from them. I am not going to be held up waiting for someone to come perform such a simple task. Then on a tour through Flint Stamping I see some jerk sleeping on the bench next to the line as it runs. When I comment about this, Our guide asked; "So you saw that?". While another person who happen to be in the Union stated that was fine for him to do as long as the line was running fine. The mentality the union has instilled in the work force up here is one of lazy people expecting everything to be done for them while giving a half effort. Bitch and moan until they get their way. My mother has worked in a Union plant for 28 yrs. She would agree with all the statements I have made. She is looking forward to the day she retires so she can get away from all the BS that the Union ALLOWS & SUPPORTS.

[mvccd1000]

108. Funny, Blue_Tires, but I'm not that bad.

I'm not an activist on any anti-UAW sites, nor do I go in search of this topic on the web. If it happens to pop up somewhere that I'm already posting, I'm more than happy to share my own personal experiences, though.

My "tour guide" through the plant at local 933 was a man who had started out as an assembler, made it up through night shift supervisor, and was currently taking the same class I was because he was becoming a field engineer (goes out to dealerships to troubleshoot particularly vexing problems). It's pretty safe to say that he was not a PR hack; he was someone who had spent years working and supervising in that very factory.

My own personal experiences with the UAW shipping department and UAW assemblers were exactly that; first hand information that I can attest to.

Read the papers from back in '98 during the Delphi strike in Flint; turns out the UAW extended the strike until GM would agree to hire one of the union big-wheel's relatives. Gee, THAT doesn't sound like anyone else people bitch about, does it?

I never tried to state that all unions are bad. I just said I've had personal experience with the UAW that causes me to hope they go down in flames sooner rather than later.

[knitter4democracy]

73. A lot of people in Michigan agree with you.

Talk to anyone who's worked under the UAW in any of the car plants, and you get all sorts of horror stories. My brother was an engineer at Ford out of college and in R&D. He couldn't even pick up a screwdriver to fix something on the prototype engine he worked on when he first got there--nope, he had to find a union member to do it for him. Ridiculous that an engineer can't pick up a tool and fix something when it's his project.

The UAW's rules and contracts got too archaic and inane. This thing on the health insurance sounds like something they first proposed way back in the 50s, if I remember right. Have the UAW do the insurance for all the companies and then turn around and lobby for national healthcare. Sounds like a good plan to me.

[EnviroBat]

123. I agree 100%. A good union is designed to protect workers,

something we see very little of in this time of outsourcing, and "American worker be dammed" management philosophy. Corporate greed and pursuit of the almighty bottom line are selling out this country, and it's sickening. In that sense, I am proud of the UAW and the Teamsters for standing up against these corporate machines, and throwing a wrench in the cogs. The part I can't support is this; In just about every union shop I've ever been in, the workers approach their jobs with a sense of entitlement rather that a sense of pride. I toured the Ford factory in Dearborn MI as a kid. What a truly fascinating place, complete with workers SLEEPING ON THE FUCKING JOB! That is no exaggeration. Could be that's the reason why every American car I've ever owned was a disposable piece of crap!

My father was a union guy during the course of his many jobs over the years. He once attempted to file a grievance, once. He had his vehicle trashed to the point of being totaled, and was threatened with grievous, bodily injury by two thugs who literally rolled up into his driveway one evening. He remains injured to this day, and is still working at 70. Look at all the great fucking retirement benefits he ended up with.

I guess my point is, unions are a good thing, but unfortunately they are also as corrupt as the gang of criminals occupying the White House. It seems that unions are more concerned these days with politics, and lobbying, and less with the workers walking the lines and paying the dues... I firmly believe in the UAW, but I think they made need some house cleaning.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. GM Loses Market Share Every Year

They are being killed by the cost of health care and the fact that the Japanese are eating their lunch...

I don't know what the solution is...

[monktonman]

17. Try selling cars people want to buy.

n/t

[Romulox]

19. If our only responsibility to one another is as consumers, then our country is sick. nt

[PDenton]

52. I'd love to buy American

But most American automobiles are so odious I'd rather not even think about buying them. Even the "good" ones like the Chevy Cobalt or Ford Focus are not made in the US.

[Romulox]

55. More misinformation...

PLANT INFORMATION
Plant Name: Wayne Stamping and Assembly Plant
City: Wayne
State: Mi
Country: USAWayne Stamping and Assembly Plant

EMPLOYMENT
Current Total Employment: 2,908
Hourly: 2,704
Salaried: 204

PRODUCTION HISTORY
Current Products: Ford Focus
Year Opened: 1952

[cgrindley]

60. Since when is the Ford Focus a good car?

it sucks. All Fords, all GMs and all Chryslers suck. I wouldn't drive anything other than my VWs or possibly a Mercedes or Audi. Even BMWs are tinny when it comes right down to it.

[Romulox]

70. Focus has won both NA and European Car of the Year awards,

and VW is among the worst quality nameplates on US roads. (Please see the JD Powers chart for 2006) posted earlier.

I've noticed a lot of the self-styled "quality experts" drive VWs, and it always gives me a chuckle.

[cgrindley]

78. I've never had a problem with VW

I have a 2002 Passat Wagon and a 2004 Convertible Beetle. They're both awesome cars. In the past, I've had a Ford Mustang, a Chevy Camaro, a Pontiac Phoenix, and a Chrysler New Yorker and they've all been horrid pieces of shit. I had a nice Chevy Spectrum once, but it was a rebadged Isuzu. My Hyundai Elantra was nice for a while but virtually fell apart the day its warranty expired.

[Romulox]

81. LOL!!! Isuzu has trailed the industry in quality for *20 years*!!!

It's OK to buy based on "gut instinct", but you sure don't know much about cars. :silly:

[cgrindley]

89. I put 475,000 km on my isuzu without a problem

I could give a shit what the "industry" has to say, and I could give even less of a shit about your judgment of my knowledge base.

[Thothmes]

122. Problem

Never had a problem with my Ford Ranger. Owned it for 26 years, only major repair was a clutch replacement at 176,000 miles. Finally replaced it with another Ranger pickup

[PDenton]

87. VW's diesels are good

The gas ones are not so good... made in Mexico and the wiring is usually bad. The diesels are made in Germany or Brazil and seem to have fewer problems.

I liked the Chevy Cobalt, and the Focus is also a good car. If I drove a car regularly that would probably be it, if Honda Civics weren't so good. That's the problem, American cars are up against some very good competition.

[tammywammy]

90. The Jetta and Beetle are made in Mexico

No diesels for 2007, but beforehand Jetta & Beetle TDIs were made in Mexico just like their gas counterpoints.

The Touareg, Eos, Rabbit & GTI are made in Germany.

[PDenton]

91. Jetta I didn't know about

My dad's Golf TDI says made in Brazil.

[tammywammy]

97. Until the 2007 Rabbit came out

They were made in Brazil. As of right now, the Rabbit, GTI, Touareg, Passat & Eos are all made in Germany.

The Jetta and Beetles are from Mexico.

[knitter4democracy]

75. Have you driven a Ford lately?

;) I couldn't resist.

I had a Subaru Outback that I loved until its tranny started to go, so I looked around and then test drove a Ford Freestyle (crossover on the Ford 500 platform). Best car I've ever driven. Cushy, roomy, awesome transmission, great engine, quiet, and I love, love, love it. A million miles better than my Subaru, and it's AWD, too.

You might be surprised by the new Ford 500 and some of their other new cars.

[cgrindley]

80. but the Ford 500 is a blisteringly ugly, clumsy and stupid looking design

and its level of appointment is sadly lacking... I don't know why they'd expect anyone to choose one over the equivalent Japanese car, let alone the equivalent German car.

[Romulox]

83. Um, the mechanicals of the 500 are almost ENTIRELY based on the Volvo s80

You could fill *several* books with what cgrindley doesn't know about cars. :rofl:

[cgrindley]

88. I called it ugly not mechanically unsound

and why anyone would consider buying a Volvo after ford's takeover is beyond my imagination.

[Romulox]

93. You said *clumsy*-it's right there in the topic line. More uninformed pap.

Both the Volvo S80 and the Ford Freestyle/500/Taurus are known for excellent handling and top notch safety ratings.

[cgrindley]

101. Yes, it is a clumsy design... that means... the design is clumsy

do you know how to read?

[knitter4democracy]

104. Car and Driver loved the 500 and Freestyle.

So did the Car Talk guys. They really liked the 500 and drove theirs for awhile.

[knitter4democracy]

103. You should see my Freestyle, then.

Leather interior, cushy, enough space and gadget stuff, and serious pickup and cornering capability. I looked at some Japanese crossovers, and for a similar price, they were uncomfortable, smaller inside, and had terrible engines. To get a comparable car, I'd have to spend a whole lot more than we did for a two year used car.

[Kelly Rupert]

20. I'm sure they haven't thought of that one n/t

[monktonman]

23. No they havent

I drive my shitty american car out of respect for american workers.
I'd much rather own a Toyota or a Honda. Who wouldnt?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. Most Toyotas And Hondas Are Made By American Workers

eom

[Romulox]

26. Absolutely incorrect. "Assembled in the USA", by definition, means a majority imported content

Most Japanese cars are assembled in the USA. None are "Made in the USA" under the Federal statutory definition of >60% US content.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. OK

But Americans are gainfully employed building Japanese cars...

[monktonman]

36. At half the pay

Are toyotas any cheaper than American cars?
hell no.

[Romulox]

37. Buying a Japanese car puts US workers out of work.

If you are OK with that, fine, but at least have the courage to honestly own up to your apathy regarding your fellow Americans.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. If I Buy A Car That Consistently Breaks Down

If I buy a car that consistently breaks down, costs me money in terms of repair and time lost to work, what is the manufacturer's obligation to me?

[Romulox]

53. Your rant isn't backed up by facts. JD Powers puts the big 3 above many foreign marks in quality...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. So... A Survey Is More Important Than My Personal Experience

I owned a AMC Javelin, a Plymouth Duster, a Mustang ll, and a Oldsmobile "Something"... Those cars consistently broke down and caused me to spend money and lose time from work...In fact, the Oldsmobile was purchased after I purchased a Datsun 200SX so I gave the American cars a second chance...


Even your own link demonstates that Japanese cars have less complaints than American cars, and since I have only owned Japanese cars and American cars those are the only comparisons relevant to me.

[Romulox]

57. You don't understand the difference between anecdotal and objective analysis

And not to date your reference, but AMC hasn't even existed for 20 years. :rofl:

Even your own link demonstates that Japanese cars have less complaints than American cars, and since I have only owned Japanese cars and American cars those are the only comparisons relevant to me.

You obviously need practice reading charts. The J.D. Powers data clearly shows many Japanese marks performing below their competitors. For instance, GMC outranks Nissan, Acura, Scion, and Subaru on the chart.

It's been my anecdotal experience that those that bray the loudest about quality frequently have not even skimmed the objective data on the subject.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. Of Course I Understand The Difference Between Anecdotal And Objective Analysis,

I said that I have "bad luck" with American cars and therefore I stopped purchasing them.

What part of that don't you understand?


:rofl:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

105. I bought a Mazda in the early 90s that was 80% American made.

And assembled in Detroit. So there.

[monktonman]

29. truth be told I'd rather own a BMW

just cant afford it.
Arent those made in europe??
is that good enough??

[TahitiNut]

33. BMWs are made by union workers in countries with HIGH labor standards.

Q.E.D.

[A HERETIC I AM]

45. The Z-4 Roadster and the X5 SUV are made in Spartanburg, SC

http://www.bmwusfactory.com/

BTW, Beemers, especially the 3 and 5 series are not all they crack up to be.
http://www.mycarstats.com/auto_Complaints/BMW_Complaints.asp

They may have solved some of the issues they had with the 02 through 05 models, but those years the 300 series and the 500 series had problems with leaky engines.

[Selatius]

32. It's not likely given entrenched management and an extremely poor manufacturing philosophy.

Japanese manufacturing philosophy is completely different from what we see here. They generally offer their workers large bonuses tied to company performance, a slice of the decision-making power in the firm, and often life time guarantees of employment. In fact, this is one reason why so few Japanese autoworkers are unionized in general. The need to unionize is borne out of a sense of lack of control, real and perceived. Few American firms in general would go so far with such reforms; it's simply not American culture. In addition, their production line is designed to maximize quality control, while American production lines are simply geared towards moving as fast as possible.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. I Read A Great Book About Total Quality Management...

I was struck by the concept of the "hidden factory" that existed to fix the problems that should have been caught in the production process...

Maybe it's just me, but after consecutive awful experiences with American cars that cost me time, money, and aggravation I stopped buying them...

[Selatius]

42. Yes, I marvel at how they approached quality control. They taught us some good lessons.

They built in quality checks into every spot of the production line, completely integrating it into the production process. It becomes apart of the whole process. Not only that, they designed the production line in such a way as to maximize the sense of accomplishment workers feel when they complete a product or task. This provides an internal motivator for each worker to want to ensure that the tasks and products they make with their hands and tools are made to standards with which make them proud.

Management in the US, for the last 150 years has held the exact opposite attitude: It's about reducing work down to repetitive, boring, and ultimately disempowering jobs. It is about maximizing the number of units produced rather than maximizing the quality of the products produced. We can make good products; it's just that management often is in the way. This is culturally ingrained in our society. We're a very individualistic society, which probably influenced how management in the US evolved into the current state it finds itself in today. Japanese management evolved in a different cultural environment, much more collectivist in nature.

[backscatter712]

44. Agreed.

American cars have improved since the 80's (when they were truly, utterly dismal) but they're still not as good as Japanese and German cars.

Personally, I drive a VW Jetta - very solid car.

[ConsAreLiars]

48. Your anti-union talking points show your allegiance clearly.

I wondered how long it would take for someone on DU to start the trash talk against the UAW and unions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. It's A Dilemma

How do you get a better labor agreement out of a company that loses market share every year?

I think national health care might help since about $1,800.00 of every new car sold goes to health care costs...

I once read an article about GM in Fortune magazine that suggested they were a health care company masquerading as a car manufacturer...

[ConsAreLiars]

58. Blaming the failures of GM management to the cost of health care for workers

is obviously just another bit of spin. That line makes as much sense as saying "they were a food company masquerading as a car manufacturer..." -- even less, since a larger part of the wage package gets spent on food. Their propaganda is obviously effective -- maybe if they had spent less money on lying to people and more on hybrid tech a few years back they would have seen better results, but those decisions are not made by the workers.

[monktonman]

114. Man, arent you spot on.

Thank you for saying what I couldnt put to words.

[cgrindley]

61. What anti-union talking points would those be?

or are you replying to someone other than me? I'm proudly unionized, but I wish my union would focus on the things I care about.

[ConsAreLiars]

69. The push poll in which you listed only negative outcomes.

Don't play the fool by claiming ignorance of your own poll "questions" in which no positive outcome was offered as an option.

[cgrindley]

74. You'll notice there was an "other" option

You don't actually think that anything positive can come of the UAW's action do you? Like, honestly...

[ConsAreLiars]

106. Jesus, man. You don't even seem to have the faintest clue about the issues.

Just garbage talking points.

Of course there is a good option if the workers win the strike. Go read something about what the "unresolved" issues were. Then tell us why you didn't regard a positive outcome for the workers on such issues as a good thing for them and us.

[Richard Steele]

110. He knows EXACTLY what he's doing.

KnowhutImean?

[ConsAreLiars]

111. Indeed - The old question: "Which Side AreYou On?" - a couple of videos:

The classic Seeger version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAIM02kv0g

A contemporary Rap version - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dr05tXktSo

[mvccd1000]

66. I didn't trash talk about the uaw AND unions. I trash talked about the UAW.

The UAW signifies everything that is wrong with unions today.

There are good unions out there, and I mentioned two examples. There are also bad unions out there, and the UAW is THE prime example of those.

Just because something is a union, does not automatically make it good.

[Greyhound]

95. please don't feed the troll. n/t

[monktonman]

113. about five minutes after the strike started.

[noonwitch]

72. I'm a member, and they can be really stupid sometimes.

they sold us down the river a few years ago.

[BlooInBloo]

77. Christ - wut fucking wusses. Did people say Democrats shouldn't filibuster a year or so back? No.

[Romulox]

85. I'd estimate that >50% of Dems don't stand with American Labor

Look at responses to this, or any other "Detroit is hurting" thread. A strike without any solidarity is a tough row to hoe, but the average American would sell out his momma for a piece of lead costume jewelry from China, so long as it is cheaper.

So a strike is a very risky proposition these days.

[BlooInBloo]

86. A strike is ALWAYS a risky proposition. But yah - Democrats/DUers aren't very labor-friendly.

[MrCoffee]

96. where was your so-called "solidarity" when PATCO needed it?

the UAW can go hang, just like they let the air traffic controllers hang.

[Romulox]

98. Um, that's a bit of a stretch, but I suppose any *excuse* for selling out US workers will do

Regan broke the Air Traffic Controllers union, so you are going to take it out on auto workers?

Hookay! :wtf:

[MrCoffee]

99. the only reason he did is because he knew, for a fact, that they had no support

how did he know? the president of the AFL-CIO told him. the UAW is affiliated with the AFL-CIO.

learn some history. or just make up some *excuse* for selling out US air traffic controllers.

[Romulox]

100. "In the 1980 presidential election, PATCO, the Teamsters and a handfull of other unions

"In the 1980 presidential election, PATCO, the Teamsters and a handfull of other unions departed from their usual practice of backing Democrats by endorsing Ronald Reagan."

But it is modern day auto workers who are to blame for Reagan's executive order breaking the union, not PATCO for endorsing Reagan in the first instance. Not "Reagan Democrats" (many who have since returned to the party as "New" Democrats where they continue to espouse their neo-liberal economics as if they were a science,) and not American consumers who refuse to buy American products, and who, by and large, are not educated enough to comparison shop?

Again, I say, hookay.:crazy:

[rucky]

119. Then we all get what we deserve.

You may now return to your crappy, unproductive jobs.

[devilgrrl]

82. Fuck Unions! Who needs them?

:sarcasm:

[MrCoffee]

94. the Air Traffic Controllers could have used a little help back in '81

where were the unions then? hiding under their beds, scared to death of what Ray-Gun might think.

they were led there by the AFL-CIO, which, if i'm not mistaken, the UAW is part of. Fuck the UAW.

[cyclezealot]

120. you are talking about people here.

You work for 25 years for a company. They want you out the door before you are 60, yet have to wait until you are 65 to qualify for Medicare. The auto companies want to put their workers health care in a trust fund that will not be financially solvent. How'd you like to be pushed out the door with no health care.
Just as GM might go under, living without health care in your early 60's. Bankruptacy is a likely result after all those years working for the company. The answer to our companies' economic problems is a National health care plan.

[LSdemocrat]

92. They're just in a bad position all around

[screembloodymurder]

102. GM needs to work off inventory.

I see no impact.

[B Calm]

107. Have you ever wondered why the cheap labor cons hate labor unions

They know when labor sticks together, wages and benifits go up. Republicans hate labor, plain and simple!

[monktonman]

115. So do Democrats it seems. n/t

[B Calm]

116. Name me a democrat that work against the labor movement!

[Greyhound]

117. Bill Clinton. n/t

[B Calm]

121. There is another thread in DU that points to Bill Clinton as the best

Republican President ever.

[Greyhound]

124. Some have said since Nixon, but since Lincoln anyway. n/t

[monktonman]

125. Bill and Hill and their entire administration.

Should I go on or is that fish big enough.

[rucky]

118. Thanks for your support! n/t

[Catchawave]

126. Heard on the news this a.m. GM losing 100 million dollars/day

because of this strike? Wouldn't a settlement have been cheaper?