So what about election fraud in 2004, impeachment and Skull and Bones?

[JackRiddler]

Yes! The way Mr. Meyer decided to approach these issues with Sen. Kerry was without a doubt aggressive (in tone), obnoxious, counter-productive and stupid. Not that there's any justification for arresting him (just at the point when Kerry had started answering the question) and then putting a taser on him (when he was already down), or for cheering the tasering as we hear people doing on the video (this is barbarism).

But that's not the subject here: I've also seen posters who characterize Meyer's questions as incoherent, "ranting and raving," crazy, unjustified, irrelevant, etc. And I humbly disagree for at least 2 1/2 of the questions (being ambivalent about S&B).

So what do people think? Meyer posed three questions, which I paraphrase as follows:

1) Is there a case that the 2004 presidential election was as rigged (or even worse than) the indisputably rigged 2000 election? Did the machines count backwards in Florida? Were the voter rolls purged of Democrats? Should Kerry have waited on that concession to see what happens next? Should he look at the issue now - as he said, he's read Palast's book - and speak out? (Shouldn't he at least be at the forefront of demanding paper ballots?)

2) Should Bush be impeached? Given Iraq, is this not an appropriate reaction to the ramping-up of the Iran attack propaganda?

3) Shouldn't Kerry be open about his Skull and Bones association? If it's so irrelevant, why not dispel it? When asked about it by Russert on a Sunday morning program in 2004, both Kerry and Bush gave identical answers: I can't tell you about that, it's secret. Russert did not pursue it in either case.

No kidding! Is this their idea of a joke? Is the joke and the underlying attitude appropriate in people who want to be president? Is the idea of a secret club for privileged boys who continue networking in secret to advance each others' careers for the rest of their lives not at all creepy to anyone?

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

1. YES, To Everything You Said!

The election WAS RIGGED!!

King george SHOULD BE IMPEACHED!!

And Yes, the Skull & Bones association is mighty suspicious. Anything Cultish like that, and you have to wonder what's really going on.

[Bjornsdotter]

2. These are questions

:hi:

...I'd like answered also.

Cheers

[liberalmuse]

3. How about Faux Paux News?

Does anyone get the feeling if Kerry had not made his statement today that they would have condemned him for allowing a student to be tasered at his event? God how I hate Fux News. And to answer your questions:
1) Yes
2) HELL yeah
3) It wouldn't hurt. To say, "I can't tell you, it's a secret" is probably the worst answer you could give. How about, "That was so long ago that I couldn't even tell you what we did in Skull and Bones. You know, it was pretty much silly kid stuff."

[CGowen]

42. FOX News: ...these police officers out to be commended for what it is they did."

http://rawstory.com//news/2007/Fox_anchor_officers_should_be_commended_0918.html

[peace13]

4. Yes we need the answers.

99% of the population is happy to stick their heads in the sand but some of us need the answers to these very important questions. Peace, Kim

[L. Coyote]

5. Isn't Skull and Bones just a club for Intelligence recruits? CIA, etc.

That's not the issue, and should not have been introduced into a really good mix of questions.

This character was the wrong person to raise these questions, but the important aspect of the event is certainly the questions raised. If he had done a good job of asking them, we might have Kerry's reasoned comments on video, instaed of the big distraction of the day.

I bet OJ and Brittany are pissed that this guy took the spotlight. :rofl:

[RangerRK]

7. I think the question was connected

Skull and Bones is the reason Kerry did not fight the election fraud, and didn't really fight to win the election in the first place. His loyalty to Bush is the reason he does not pursue impeachment.

[L. Coyote]

9. Okay, take off the tin-foil hat, and the dunce cap, and start eating smart pills.

I have some really cheap ones, only $50 a day.

After a few weeks, you won't be so gullible :rofl:

[Blue_In_AK]

13. Loyalty to Bush????

Are you CRAZY??? :rofl:

[RangerRK]

22. He wouldn't say anything bad about him at the 2004 Convention

and what's worse, he wouldn't let anyone say anything bad about him. His team edited everyone's speeches- Sharpton had to go off script.

That election should not have been close enough to steal. Bush is an idiot and had proven that quite frequently. He was(is) a war criminal. He should have used the pulpit to chastise Bush and ruin his political career. It would have been so easy. But he wanted to go easy on him.

Bush cheated in debate- he was caught listening to an earpiece and talking to it "Let me finish" when no one at the debate had said anything?? Kerry let it slide.

[karynnj]

61. Actually he criticized Bush in his own acceptence speech - as did others in their speech

Calling the POTUS a war criminal is not the most likely way to win the election.

[RangerRK]

83. You don't remember the control of the 2004 convention?

Then you need to read this...
A Kucinich delegate in Boston and the totalitarian democratic party
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=2305

I just can't stand how some people here call him a leader to end the war in Iraq- he is the one that kept saying 'you can't cut and run' in 2004, he is the one that helped this bullshit to continue.

[karynnj]

87. I remember the convention and I liked it

Kerry had to use the convention to introduce himself, his record and his vision. The base would have loved Bush bashing, but it would not have convinced anyone that Kerry could be a good President. In 2004, Kerry spoke of a summit, internationalizing Iraq, NO permanent bases and possible withdrawals in late 2005. If he ran on immediate withdrawal he would have lost by a landslide.

Kerry did not want the convention to be taken over by protesters, but many people spoke against Bush in their speeches.

[RangerRK]

90. He was not supporting the will of the people who wanted OUT OF IRAQ!

He should have expected protesters. A poll was taken of the delegates at the convention, and 90% wanted OUT!

"Lock-step" doesn’t begin to cover the management of delegates by our minders. Since we were told that we could not bring in signs, I didn’t, but I made a sign on-site that said simply "Peace." It was confiscated, and in a very clever way that left me with no possibility of confrontation. For the first two days, they were ambivalent about the pink scarves we had printed that said "Give Bush The Pink Slip; Delegate for Peace." By Tuesday night, they were confiscating them by the hundreds at the metal detectors, and then going around the hall taking them from individuals. We confronted them on that one and got them to back off, but it was a tense battle that carried the risk of being ejected from the hall."

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jgraz]

67. Senators can CALL FOR impeachment, just like any other citizen

Of course, Kerry's about as likely to do that as he is to demonstrate genuine human emotion. Oh well, someday he'll be a real boy.

[RangerRK]

82. "you're stupid as a box of rocks"

Is that allowed on DU?

Kerry can certainly speak out in favor of Impeachment.

He can also introduce the companion legislation in the Senate for hand counted paper ballots that Kucinich introduced in the House. That is the least he owes the people who helped get him elected last time. What is he doing to prevent election fraud 2008?

Kerry can stop lying about not having the votes to stop the war, and call on Nancy Pelosi to not bring forth any legislation that provides money for the war in Iraq, and stop blaming the Iraqis for the mess we created 'when the Iraqis stand up' bullshit needs to stop. The Iraqis have stated loud and clear- THEY WANT US TO LEAVE!

[karynnj]

59. Kerry has NO loyalty to Bush

[RangerRK]

84. Bush cheated in the debates and Kerry said nothing!

Everyone could see Bush had someone feeding him answers, which is against the rules of the debate.

He spoke to his earpiece "let me finish" when no one was talking.

Even Charlie Gibson asked Bush about it, but Kerry kept mum.

He protected Bush during the election season. There was so much he could have said and done to ensure his victory, but he did not appear to want to win.

[RangerRK]

94. remember?

[RangerRK]

95. why didn't kerry expose this cheating? Bush would have been over....

[RangerRK]

6. They were great questions!

Great post!

[WilliamPitt]

8. Jesus. It really is 2003 again.

DU, thy name is devolution.

*sigh*

[lateo]

12. Will.

We lived in this part of history. Saw it with our own eyes and many of use still are in disbelief at how it turned out. This is something that will be debated for many, many more years and it should be.

[WilliamPitt]

19. You're right, of course.

I was still in the taser-thing mode when I posted that.

Thanks for the smack.

Cheers. :toast:

[JackRiddler]

16. Do you have a factual point?

What's 2007 to you?

[WilliamPitt]

18. Fair enough.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22william+rivers+pitt%22+ohio+kerry

That's what I think.

[JackRiddler]

21. You usually strike me as one...

who gets the big picture, who understands that the root issues endure for many years, and need to be recalled and addressed regardless of current fashion. Usually, you strike me as one who isn't stuck on the treadmill of letting the daily news determine one's actions.

So what's this "so 2003" pose supposed to mean? As one who wrote on the vote fraud (of 2004!) do you think it's now irrelevant? Were paper ballots or at least receipts mandated while I was sleeping? Are the voting machine companies now providing open source software to allow security scrutiny? Has the practice of allowing the head of a state party's campaign to simultaneously be the head overseer of the election been abolished?

[WilliamPitt]

23. See post #19.

That apology is for you, as well.

Cheers.

[WildEyedLiberal]

45. You're getting SeventhSon flashbacks too?

He was always going on about Skull and Bones and Wes Clark's Haitian man-tits and a host of other idiotic lunatic fringe conspiracy theories.

Strangely enough, he turned out to be a troll.

But I'm not allowed to call out the literally dozens of sub-100 post count "newbies" who have come swarming out of the cracks like cockroaches to talk about SKULL N BONEZ.

[JackRiddler]

55. Go ahead

invoke the usual ritualistic invocations of the magic words that banish outre ideas ("conspiracy theory," yawn).

Want to call me a troll, bud?

[WildEyedLiberal]

56. I actually wasn't referring to you at all

There are lots of brand new "concerned" posters who've contributed nothing to DU but the same conspiracy theory - and yes, unless you can prove that there's some secret Skull and Bones blood oath, it's nothing more than an idiotic conspiracy theory. But, the idiocy of S&B aside, I wasn't making reference to you at all and I'm sorry I gave you that impression.

[Hotler]

10. All I can do is shake my head. eom.

[RangerRK]

11. Has anyone see the movie "The Good Shepard"

It is about Skull and Bones and their close connections to the CIA....but I am sure it is just fiction...

[JackRiddler]

14. Yes.

I thought those scenes were very interesting as a sociology of secret societies.

Also accurate in spirit (albeit fictionalized) as a history of the CIA. If anything, too cautious.

[karynnj]

62. It is fiction

Wouldn't it make more sense to look at Kerry's career. He fought harder than anyone against the Contras and BCCI.

What is more likely is that the CIA had many people from Yale when it started and they recruited people like themself. Kerry clearly risked his entire career to expose the CIA funding of the Contras.

[JackRiddler]

76. Yes.

And I once considered him heroic, for exposing much as he could against the leadership of his own party on subjects like Contra finance, CIA-Drugs and BCCI.

And there he was, at the pinnacle of these efforts in 2004, running for president against the incumbent Bush mob, with a vast arsenal of material to use against the Bush mob. He was able to draw on the record both of the immediate crimes of the present Bush regime and on the historic crimes of its still-active players, a subject on which he was a leading expert.

No one could have prepared better for that moment.

And Kerry used none of it.

None at all.

Why?

[karynnj]

86. Because most of it would have backfired badly.

You have to remember 2004.

1) In June Reagan died and I think he was immediately cannonized as an American saint. If Kerry spoke of fighting Reagan on the arming of right wing thugs - against the express wishes of Congress - the story would have been that Kerry supported terrorists. If Kerry said they allowed crack cocaine in the country, the media would have called him a liar. St Ronnie and Nancy would never do that.

2) BCCI - Kerry did use this in saying he knew how to track terrorist money - he did it. People like Richard Clarke and Anthony Lake did speak of Kerry being one of the very few who understood the terrorist threat in the 1990s - they had to play this low as Kerry's suggestions of things needing to be done when his committee ended included major things that were not followed up on in the 1990s. Things like investigating how BCCI and the A. Q. Khan network possibly trying to sell nuclear know how an materials. Kerry was right on in that 1992 report - but using it could have ignited a Clinton/Bush fight over who didn't protect the country. (Even though it was a bigger priority in the Clinton years than in the pre911 Bush year.

3) A large percent of the country bonded with Bush after 911 - people were not willing to hear those things. What % of the vote do you think Michael Moore could have got?

[american_typeculture]

15. Off topic slightly

Anybody heard the story about how Nixon and Reagan decided that Nixon would get the Republican nod for Pres. before Reagan? And that this was all decided at the Bohemian Grove? Any truth to this?

[american_typeculture]

17. Found it.

"But rehabilitation through a Lakeside Talk was not all Nixon accomplished at the Bohemian Grove that summer. He also had a "candid discussion" with Ronald Reagan "as we sat outdoors on a bench under one of the giant redwoods." Nixon told Reagan of his plans to enter the primaries. He assured Reagan he would not campaign against any "fellow Republicans." Reagan allegedly professed surprise that there was speculation about his possible candidacy, and claimed he did not want to be a favorite son. According to Nixon, Reagan said "that he would not be a candidate in the primaries." In other words, they came to a deal at the Grove, with Reagan saying he would only enter the primaries if Nixon faltered."

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/bohemian_grove.html

hope a .edu source is good enough, it's UC Santa Cruz.

[wildbilln864]

20. K&R! I don't know why there's not alot more Rs!

The guys questions are valid IMHO! Great post. :hi:

[JackRiddler]

24. Well thank you! n/t

[smoogatz]

25. Valid questions, I guess.

Here's how I'd answer them, if I was Kerry:

1.Yes, there were irregularities in the 2004 election, particularly in Ohio and Florida. Thousands of voters were disenfranchised, and I have little doubt that the vote count was manipulated in some counties in those states. But, in order to successfully contest the official results, I'd have needed smoking gun evidence and first-hand, eyewitness testimony that election fraud had taken place on a massive scale. That evidence still hasn't emerged, almost three years after the fact. There's lots of compelling statistical and circumstantial evidence that has emerged, but nothing that would have convinced the Supreme Court in late 2004/early 2005 that there was a massive Republican conspiracy in at least two states to fix the election.

2.There is certainly a case to be made for impeaching President Bush. This is arguably one of the most incompetent and corrupt administrations in history, and we should all be deeply disturbed by the President's recent claims of near absolute power in the case of broadly definied national emergencies. However, it's unlikely given the current makeup of Congress that impeachment would ever make it through the House (Blue Dogs), and there's no chance for conviction in the Senate. Instead of offering the American people the empty gesture of impeachment hearings, we think it's more important to proceed with our Democratic Agenda for the 21st Century, which basically consists of lying down on the floor while Bush pisses on us. (Okay, he wouldn't really say that last part.)

3.Skull and Bones was basically a fraternity for rich, spoiled white kids. We watched stag movies and smoked pot. Sometimes we went into New Haven and picked up a couple of hookers. (He wouldn't say any of that, either. But I'm guessing that's pretty much what the big fucking secret is.)

[moodforaday]

30. If that was all that the secret was

it would have stopped being a secret decades ago. Kerry was asked by Russert and declined to answer. He could have joked about it, could have invented something irrelevant/trivial on the spot, maybe he could have said a small tiny bit of the truth... But he did nothing of the kind. He flatly asserted a secret and refused to discuss it. Apparently it was more important to him than presidency. Why then shouldn't it be important to us?

[smoogatz]

32. Are you implying that Kerry's non-answer to Russert's smirky

skull-and-bones question cost him the presidency? Call me crazy, but if I had to list the top thirty reasons Kerry lost, that would be number fifty-seven.

[JackRiddler]

36. I don't think that this was implied...

that Kerry lost anything because he refused to answer the S&B question. But given the ease of dismissing such a question, the answer (and that it's the same answer as Bush's) implies that it's extremely important to them both to keep the secret, juvenile though it may be (I doubt it) - perhaps even, if it came to it, risking the electoral victory to preserve it.

And I don't think S&B is a simple fraternity or a club. It's clear that members help each other out for life, and consider themselves obligated to the order.

[karynnj]

63. Kerry certainly didn't help GHWB by investigating the Contras

[wordswinker]

73. Did you read Robert Kennedy's expose in Rolling Stone?

You could get cancer from all the second hand smoke coming off the guns in that article. My question is why it didn't gain any traction.

[truckin]

26. Excellent post. The kid was an idiot but he asked good

questions. Yes to all the points you bring up.

[tridim]

27. People should certainly continue asking these questions at future Kerry appearances

Just to determine if all S&B questions result in the questioner being tackled and arrested.

These are absolutely valid questions that deserve strait answers.

[karynnj]

58. Really bright idea - designed to immobalize the person who led on Iraq withdrawal

Watch the Kerry/McCain debate on Iraq - this is the guy you want to harass. Do you want him asked about his service and wounds too?

[JackRiddler]

28. Greg Palast on the taser incident

http://www.gregpalast.com/student-tasered-for-armed-madhouse-question-to-kerry/

Student Tasered for Armed Madhouse Question to Kerry

(snip)

by Greg Palast

(snip)

We warned you: ‘Armed Madhouse’ is a dangerous book. Yesterday, Andrew Meyer, a University of Florida student was attacked by five cops, zapped with tasers and arrested after demanding that Senator John Kerry answer the question.

(snip)

Meyers, a telecommunications student at the Gainesville campus, asked related questions including a query as to why Kerry refused to vote for impeachment. When he passed his alloted one minute mic time, five cops jumped him, threw him to the ground, shot him with taser shockers.

Kerry, true to character, stood immobile.

(snip)

The Washington Post reported only that Meyers was holding a "mysterious yellow book"; VERY mysterious.

I would note that enchained student was busted in Alachua County, Florida, where, six years ago, I uncovered massive, systematic and utterly illegal disenfranchisement of Black voters - ordered by Gov. Jeb Bush's office just before the 2000 election. ("Florida's Disappeared Voters," February 2001, The Nation.) Alachua remains under federal scrutiny for its long history of racial bias against Black voters.

(...)

---

Now I'm not out to blame Kerry. The situation is not his fault. It's simply true that he stood immobile, with a few belated and mumbled objections, and that this all-too clearly echoes his behavior during the 2004 election debacle.

In response to this, some people object by setting up a strawman, acting as though criticism Kerry of is implying he should have intervened physically or done something else impossible. No. A strong, self-aware leader would have simply used the mic more forcefully to calm the situation down. "Now hold on please - Please leave him alone while I answer his questions!" would have done, if delivered with authority. Never mind who was legally in charge of what - the cops would have obeyed the Senator, the situation would have been defused.

I can think of people who would have acted forcefully to defuse, of all political stripes. I know I wouldn't want to be in a foxhole with Kerry, whatever his distinguished war record.

[nashville_brook]

29. this incident shows we are a dysfunctional family that won't discuss abuse

along comes the young buck who won't be cowed by expected politic. and, just like in a dysfunctional family, this he was overloaded with emotion when he finally dragged the skeletons out of the closet.

these questions are at the center of what has been marginalized. his semiotics professor would be proud.

[JackRiddler]

33. I like it.

And isn't Mr. Meyer a logical product - a wounded child, narcissistic to a fault - of this political abuse?

Perhaps he hoped the big father would accept him despite his throwing dung on the idols.

[nashville_brook]

35. i think that's not far from the truth. we are all wounded children vis a vis

the abuses we've endured for the last...ugh...too long. i think the reason we don't see a 60s-style "student movement" is that young people no longer believe there's a redeemable future. how *do* we come back from Bush V Gore? what is left to salvage of a "democracy" where voters may or may not be allowed to vote, and votes may or may not count, and the candidates we threw our arms around won't even stand up for our votes (read, democracy) when their own damn campaigns are caught in the crossfire.

there's no alternative on the horizon that makes political action worth the damn trouble.

seems the possibility of being on youtoob is the only reason left to engage in political discourse.

[tom_paine]

31. K & R for some very good questions. SOMETHING is clearly wrong

and very wrong, at that.

We may have to wait for the rise of the Amerikan BushReich to it's full and final solutions, before it falls and can be examined by historians.

Many of us, maybe all of us, will not live to see that distant day.

[Gravel2008]

34. K & R!!

Thanks for posting.

[Kelly Rupert]

37. Jesus Christ. Is it December 2004 already?

Look, I understand these are important issues (Skull and Bones aside). But I think they rather pale in importance to the issues we're facing today. We have the majority. We should be focusing our energy on the future, not on getting some degree of comeuppance for the maybe-injustices of the past.

[JackRiddler]

38. No, it's apparently 2009.

And absolutely nothing has changed, because some people don't want to learn from experience.

[Kelly Rupert]

41. And some people

deactivate the noise filter in their brains and call it learning.

[RangerRK]

92. "some people don't want to learn from experience. "

just wanted to repeat that-thanks.

[JackRiddler]

93. anytime! nt

[LittleClarkie]

39. S and B is B and S

He shouldn't have to dignify such things with an answer. I can't believe educated people are even bringing it up, for fuck's sake.

[WildEyedLiberal]

46. One of my best friends is in a sorority and she can't tell me about her initiation ceremony

Which OBVIOUSLY means they sacrificed infants, drank their blood, swore a loyality oath to the New World Order and proceeded to fornicate with goats.

[LittleClarkie]

47. She probably had a hand in throwing the election too

Everyone's in on it but ME!! :cry:

[Blashyrkh]

64. People said the same about Copernicus' "round earth" theory.

Bush & Kerry gave identical answers to the Skull & Bones question for a reason.

I love how people completely dismiss something because they *know* it's just too crazy to be true. Which, coming from someone who lives in a country where 70% of people believe in "god", is pretty fucking rich.

[LittleClarkie]

66. You're the one trying to stitch together a reality out of a club membership

with nothing else to base it on.

It's only because the damn thing is secret that you think something is going on. The secrecy gives you room to make up all sorts of scenarios. But you have no facts. You got nothing but a club membership.

Meanwhile we also have Kerry's past history in Iran/Contra and elsewhere, and a few people here who've actually met the man more than once.

Take it to "Coast to Coast." I'm sure they could fit you in between the Bigfoot sightings and the Area 51 reports.

[Blashyrkh]

71. *snicker*

You have no idea where Skull & Bones fits into my worldview nor do you know what I base that on. You also have no idea that you've made conclusions based nothing but my "membership" to a school of thought. Which is exactly what you were telling me *not* to do.

From my perspective and what I've read about Skull & Bones, it is entirely plausible that any orders through that organisation requesting John Kerry to concede the election immediately would have been followed to the letter. Just the way Kerry did. The same way both Kerry and Bush followed the textbook answer for being asked about S&B membership.

[2rth2pwr]

78. They have to give the same answer

they know the consequences.

[2rth2pwr]

40. I still don't understand why Kerry hasn't answered the question he got

a couple months ago about Building 7. He promised he would look into it.

[CGowen]

43. That was Edwards, Kerry said

"I do know that that wall, I remember, was in danger and I think they made the decision based on the danger that it had in destroying other things-- that they did it in a controlled fashion."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJsJjYwYOAA

[2rth2pwr]

49. That's right Edwards, how come Edwards hasn't

answered that?

[CGowen]

50. I really like your de Gaulle quote n/t

[2rth2pwr]

51. thanks. nt

[2rth2pwr]

52. After watching that video it reminded me, how did he

have that information? How did he know that "they made a decision to take it down in a controlled fashion?"

[karynnj]

65. Because it was on every station's 911 nonstop coverage

At least in the NYC area. Note that Kerry did not ebven say that they did use a controlled means of lowering the ruined building - he said there was concern about the Wall. (I think it was sometimes called the bathtub - the foudation of the entire site built on land fill.)

Kerry was rejecting their idea that there was some conspiracy.

[2rth2pwr]

69. He didn't reject anything. he said specifically that "they"

decided it would be safer to bring it down in a controlled fashion.

[karynnj]

74. The context was that there were reports that

concerns for it's stability could have led to that. The questioner spoke of traces of explosives - what he offered was an alternative of authorities doing this AFTER the building was damaged and in danger to falling. He was saying he remembered hearing that - he was not claiming inside information. There was discussion in the media on the possible need to do this - though I don't think they ever said that was done.

Here is a video where he rejects the 911 conspiracy people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpuANQWDFy8

[jgraz]

68. Just a guess: because he lied

Just like he lied about not seeing what was happening to the student in the bakc of the auditorium. Just like he lied about counting all the votes.

[CGowen]

48. Only 3 presidents were Skull & Bones:Taft, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr n/t

[2rth2pwr]

70. The rest were Reptoids.nt

[Vektor]

53. It probably IS their idea of a joke.

As in, "Jokes on you, you still believe in the "dark arts", Dungeons and Dragons, and voo-doo tales. Keep entertaining yourself with that blaque majique stuff while the rest of us dwell on real, grown up issues."

[JackRiddler]

54. An entirely plausible hypothesis...

I would prefer knowing to guessing, but the possibility that the S&B boys are mere smug upper class twits should already be sufficient for the rest of us mortals to recoil in disgust from the whole lot of them.

[Vektor]

57. Or college kids

drafted into a club they knew little about at the time, and care even less about now. I don't really care to guess, OR know about it because it's so NOT interesting, ya know?

[FredScuttle]

60. Good thing Kerry's membership in S&B kept him out of Vietnam

er, hold on....

[JackRiddler]

75. This is an irrelevant and tendentious point.

It shows you are reaching.

I believe Kerry volunteered to go to Vietnam. You can ask him why, if it matters.

To ask what the S&B membership means is not to say definitively it's important. The public invocations of secrecy about a supposedly harmless frat by two statesmen in their 60s laying claim to the presidency are, at best, childish and discrediting.

You can mock all you like - from a position of willed ignorance - but the idea that S&B may be more significant than a harmless frat is not therefore invalidated. A richly-financed secret society that recruits young members for shaping; these establishment scions remain in the network, receive and exchange favors as they rise together, at the expense of all others with whom they compete. The network has longstanding and proven connections to the intel complex. This all seems worthy of examination, even if it need not be spun into something all-encompassing. It may not even be that sinister. But again, what's with the "joke" of both men calling it a "secret"?

Kerry failed to call out Bush and his regime for their election fraud, war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against the constitution. I doubt this was because of the shared membership in S&B.

But there it is: Kerry failed to call out Bush, and no doubt he had his reasons.

The spectacle of him mumbling while the kid is tasered for being annoying is too appropriate as a metaphor for Kerry and the Democrats in 2004, and with regard to Iraq in 2007.

[Nihil]

80. Thanks for the OP (and for keeping it on-track despite disruptions)

> You can mock all you like - from a position of willed ignorance - but the
> idea that S&B may be more significant than a harmless frat is not therefore
> invalidated. A richly-financed secret society that recruits young members
> for shaping; these establishment scions remain in the network, receive and
> exchange favors as they rise together, at the expense of all others with
> whom they compete. The network has longstanding and proven connections to
> the intel complex. This all seems worthy of examination, even if it need
> not be spun into something all-encompassing. It may not even be that sinister.

Very good points.

With regard to "sinister" or not, it depends on how imaginatively you define
the word: the mere existence of a fraternal bond greater than all others is
not sinister at the level of the ordinary man (even the "ordinary" rich
high-level management man) but when that bond affects a man who is supposed
to act for the best interests of the nation, the same thing can indeed be
viewed as "sinister".

This is not to say that Kerry is necessarily dishonest or that he views his
membership & oath in the same light as (either) Bush does. The difference
between the two men is immense but, ironically, this might explain the event
more than you might think: John Kerry strikes me as a man who takes his
promises seriously. I have given promises to people in the past that I will
not reveal specific information to others. I have been true to my word even
when that has been difficult for me and I find no problem believing that
Kerry would act in the same way: "my word is my bond".

At the same time, it doesn't get him a free pass for acting in that way:
he should not have proceeded in the race knowing that the likely outcome
would be a choice between two Bonesmen and knowing that Bush had the
"family tradition" on his side making it anything but a fair race.
Kerry (more than any other person in his campaign) would know that the
election was anything but honest and a "tactical illness" would have been
the best way out, not only for him but for America as a whole. Instead ...
he followed the script ...

> Kerry failed to call out Bush and his regime for their election fraud,
> war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against the constitution.
> I doubt this was because of the shared membership in S&B.

As it happens, I don't share your doubt but, either way, the points DO need
to be answered.

[JackRiddler]

81. I doubt anything that I don't consider proven.

Kerry's membership shared with Bush in a larger club than S&B - the ruling class - may be sufficient to explain his self-defeating behaviors in 2002-2004 and since.

[Pooka Fey]

72. Kicking a great post.

Great to see a guy posing an intelligent passionate question to the Democratic candidate and winner of the 2004 election, and get dragged out in handcuffs by the police and tortured by taser while everyone in the room sits by and does practically nothing. What a great nation the USA has become.

:sarcasm:

I wouldn't want to be in a foxhole with John Kerry either.

[lateo]

77. Indeed.

We can only hope that he answers the questions one day. It would be great if someone at his next speech presents the same questions to him.

[camero]

79. My mother always said "Don't rock the boat"

Well, again, I say this boat needs to be rocked.

As to the 3 questions. Yes to all of them.

[RangerRK]

85. And WHAT is Kerry doing now about election fraud?

He said he read Palast's book. He should be at least as angry as the rest of us.

[pat_k]

88. Kerry said he'd be happy to answer. I'm still waiting.

. . .and waiting for a response that isn't a bullshit excuse.

[Bucky]

89. I can't believe you asked that! Now I'm going to have to taser you.

[JackRiddler]

91. NO! DON'T TASE ME! AAAAAARRRR!

*Locking.*