How did Petraeus earn his Bronze Star with 'V' device?

[Cruzan]

Does anyone have the citation?

[Richard Steele]

1. An IED sent it flying over the GreenZone wall and onto his lobster bib? nm

[B Calm]

2. as with most officers, it's how well you suck up that determines

how many medals you earn.

[soothsayer]

3. I had to laugh at his chest full of medals and all those silly patches.

Don't mean to rankle military types here, but it strikes me as such a silly and juvenile tradition, and looks just like a kid putting stickers all over himself. Honestly, I can see why they might give them to young recruits, but once you're grown up do you really need to pin a medal on your chest, must less 50? "Look, teacher, I made a used the potty, can I get a sticker?" lol. I cracked up when I saw all his decorations. Of course he's only 5'9" so maybe he's trying to compensate.

[Cruzan]

5. It does seem the Army over does it a bit with the bling.

I've not noticed other service general officers with chests so covered with various decorations.

[Captain Hilts]

9. It's ludicrous. Not just officers. nt

[Squatch]

10. It is not ludicrous.

As an officer, I take utmost pride in all of my awards and decorations. Everything I put on that uniform, I earned.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. I Agree...

If you earned those medals you should wear them; on special occasions...

I'm sure he doesn't wear them in the field or at his office...

[sarge43]

18. The full bank of chest salad, along with all the other bells and whistles

is always worn on the outer jacket, service coat. No choice.

[Captain Hilts]

20. When you are a four star...

you can wear a feather boa if you want to.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. I Have A Question

If he's reviewing the troops in 140 degrees Baghdad weather does he wear that outfit or does he just wear his Army fatigues with the bars?

I don't rememember General Schwarzkorf wearing all his medals when he briefed the press during Gulf War One...

[sarge43]

32. Ribbons aren't worn on fatigues, just patches.

The standard uniform in a combat zone, regardless of your job or rank/grade, is fatigues.

[Recursion]

42. No

Ribbons and medals are not worn on tactical uniforms. In theory you aren't even supposed to wear a rank insignia on a combat uniform, at least not in a tactical environment. (I remember watching Saving Private Ryan and watching Tom Hanks's character hit the beach with big, bright white captain's bars on his helmet and thinking, "yeah, some motivated E-3 is about to get a field commission from me...")

[Captain Hilts]

46. I thought you were required to wear rank insignia.

But I know you don't salute in combat theatres because that points out to snipers whom to shoot.

[Squatch]

51. The modern ACU has velcro-attached rank insignia.

Usually the first thing to be take off in a combat zone.

[Captain Hilts]

54. I thought it was a Geneva Convention thing. Has this rule changed since WWII? Curious. nt

[Recursion]

66. Possibly not. Even so...

...the second we went hot I would take my sergeant chevrons off. My Marines knew who I was and nobody else needed to...

[Captain Hilts]

69. I think the rule has changed. In WWII you fought with your rank insignia....

or bailed out of airplanes with it too, which always surprised me, actually.

I'd a ripped off anything above Captain before the Germans got to me.

[ShortnFiery]

76. Oh you better believe that some poor schmuck butter bar LT has to get General Peaches

uniform perfect for him each and every damn day. ;)

[Squatch]

78. A four star general's Aide de Camp is usually a Lieutenant Colonel

[Captain Hilts]

79. George C. Marshall's was a sergeant. nt

[Squatch]

80. And the Sultans of Turkey had hundreds of concubines.

For the record, Gen Marshall's assistant may have been a sergeant, but his Aide de Camp was an officer, as all Aides are and have been.

[Recursion]

30. Well, generals can assign their own uniforms, though they tend not to anymore

But you're right, by regs if he didn't wear all of those he'd be out of uniform... not exactly a good example to the PFC who gets him his coffee. (Who am I kidding? This guy has a 1st Lieutenant get him his coffee.)

People should also remember that he has to wear the unit citations of every unit he's served in or commanded... in a 30 year career that's going to add up to a lot of geedunk.

[Captain Hilts]

43. In the late 70s the Marine Corps commandant was photographed in a recruiting poster...

wearing his uniform incorrectly. He told them to use the photo anyway.

George C. Marshall was on the cover of Life Magazine, a full shot, saluting incorrectly - using the army-style salute with palm out rather than the US military's use of the naval salute with the palm facing down. He caught some static for that in the letters the next week.

[Captain Hilts]

12. My father served 30 years....

USNA grad, sub captain, retired an 06 in the mid 70s.

He had six medals. SIX. That was not unusual in his day. The only sub officers with a lot of medals were WWII vets and those that some kind of Vietnam duty - Adm. Crowe got a ton of chest candy AFTER he left the sub force.

The sub force now hands out a medal for being away from your home port for 90 days. If you're tied to someone else's pier for 89 of them, you still get the medal.

As long as awards are being given, it's better to get them. But the standards for receiving such awards have been lowered as part of the volunteer service.

When George C. Marshall became Chief of Staff of the Army - JCS head in that day - he'd been in the army 37 years, had WWI service, and had 12 medals and no pins.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. My Dad

My dad piled up a bunch of medals in WW2...It's harder to accumulate them in the absence of "glorious wars"... I'll give Petraeus a break as long as he doesn't wear them in the field or in his day to day duties...

I am curious where his Bronze Star with the "V" comes from...As you know that means he did something really good as well as something really brave...

[Captain Hilts]

23. Where did he serve in WWII? nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Tunisian, Sicilian Italian, Campaigns

Battles Of Safi, El Guetar, Sedjaine Valley Sector

[Captain Hilts]

36. Tough duty! A friend of mine's brother walked away from Anzio without a scratch. Luck counts. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. My Dad Took Shrapnel In The Eye And Belly ...

He spent six months in Walter Reed Hospital and had several surgeries on his eye...They were able to cosmetically save the eye but not the sight...

Before the war he was a Golden Gloves boxer with hopes of going pro... That was certainly dashed... He never spoke about his service but I saw him cry like a baby when the first POWS came home from Viet Nam...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. Anzio Is Where Bob Dole Was Almost Blown Up

eom

[Captain Hilts]

55. Inoyue - sp? - was in Italy, was he at Anzio? nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. Here

Medal of Honor citation
"Second Lieutenant Daniel K. Inouye distinguished himself by extraordinary heroism in action on 21 April 1945, in the vicinity of San Terenzo, Italy. While attacking a defended ridge guarding an important road junction, Second Lieutenant Inouye skillfully directed his platoon through a hail of automatic weapon and small arms fire, in a swift enveloping movement that resulted in the capture of an artillery and mortar post and brought his men to within 40 yards of the hostile force. Emplaced in bunkers and rock formations, the enemy halted the advance with crossfire from three machine guns. With complete disregard for his personal safety, Second Lieutenant Inouye crawled up the treacherous slope to within five yards of the nearest machine gun and hurled two grenades, destroying the emplacement. Before the enemy could retaliate, he stood up and neutralized a second machine gun nest. Although wounded by a sniper’s bullet, he continued to engage other hostile positions at close range until an exploding grenade shattered his right arm. Despite the intense pain, he refused evacuation and continued to direct his platoon until enemy resistance was broken and his men were again deployed in defensive positions. In the attack, 25 enemy soldiers were killed and eight others captured. By his gallant, aggressive tactics and by his indomitable leadership, Second Lieutenant Inouye enabled his platoon to advance through formidable resistance, and was instrumental in the capture of the ridge. Second Lieutenant Inouye’s extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of military service and reflect great credit on him, his unit, and the United States Army."



I think Inouye and Bob Kerrey are the only Medal Of Honor winners to serve in the Senate since Reconstruction...

[tuckessee]

71. If you mean when Dole was wounded...

...that was much later than Anzio (1-5 1944).

Dole was wounded in mid April 1945 in the Italian Alps.

[KeineAhnung]

70. Hell yes n/t

[ShortnFiery]

75. As a former officer, I know for a fact that it takes "little to nothing" for Field Grade and

General Officers to score medals. General Peaches did not see combat until 2003. Yes, I wonder what the "good" General did to get his Bronze Star with V for VALOR? My father flushed out a machine gun nest full of Nazis to earn his, I'm sure General Peaches was just as courageous. :sarcasm: :thumbsdown:

[Aristus]

73. Here's me with my bling:

Granted, I was just a lowly Sergeant, but even we enlisted men get things on our uniforms we didn't used to. On the lower left is a rainbow-colored ribbon called the Army Service Ribbon. All you have to do to get that is serve 6 months on active duty, usually for initial entry training (Basic). The Army only instituted that one back in the early eighties, I think. Before that, a lowly Private would have nothing to put on his uniform until he had either attended a higher-level Army school, or served in combat.

I won't take anything away from Petraeus until I see evidence otherwise. His problem is the same as Colin Powell's. Whatever credibility he earned through a lifetime of honorable service is being pissed away as he sucks up to B*sh & Co. He should know better, but he's not the first career soldier to sell his honor for a mess of pottage, as it were.

[fasttense]

4. There was a CNO who killed himself because

he was wearing medals that he did not earn and the press was on to him. Military members take their medals very seriously. Which is why the swift-boating of John Kerry was just so despicable, immoral and deceitful.

So did Betrayus earn his bronze star with 'V' device?

[Cruzan]

6. In fact it was for a V he was not authorized to wear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valor_device#History

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. My Neighbor And Friend Has Two Bronze Stars Without The V

I never reaiized he had him until he showed me a commendation he got from the Southern Poverty Law Center that he hung on his wall...

[sarge43]

31. The problem is we'll never know if he wore it deliberately or

it was an honest mistake or even if he was set up.

Case in point: I have in my records jacket an order stating all personnel assigned to the BlahBlah Gp between 1 blahblah and 31 blahblah are authorized to wear the AF Outstanding Unit Award. I was; so I do. However, shortly before retirement I came across the regulation that covered the AFOUA and all the units awarded same. The BlahBlah Gp wasn't listed. So, am I wearing an unauthorized ribbon?

This is one of the things that happens when millions can get a medal or ribbon for just being there, ie among others the AF Basic Training Grad ribbon.

[sarge43]

13. Adm Jeremy Boorda

The V device hooha was probably the last straw. The Navy establishment was after his hide for (1) being a mustang who pulled ahead of a lot of ring knockers and (2) he run the investigation post Tailhook.

".... take their medals very seriously." Depends upon the medals, some yes, others are a joke. I'd put the Good Conduct in that category. The implication is the enlisted default is bad conduct, so we get a dooda for staying out of trouble or, at least, not getting caught which is what we're suppose to do.

The other thing that caught my eye is he spent eight years as a captain (O-3). In the day it was a fairly easy jump to major (O-4). Hmmmm.

[Captain Hilts]

15. Those time frames really vary according to demand for certain ranks.

People used to just sit forever at major.

Was that when Petraeus got his phd? I would think that you wouldn't be awarded promotions and medals while taking, a couple years off to get a phd.

[sarge43]

21. Well, that's what got my attention.

Major was the dead zone grade, not captain. Post Nam promotions did get thin, but he's Academy; they get first pickings.

Unless the Army had an entirely different system than AF, that shouldn't have slowed him down that much. He was on AD, performing authorized duty; his records should have gone into the board.

[Captain Hilts]

16. What a breath of fresh air Boorda was..

a nice change of pace.

The navy's dependence on ring knockers is too strong.

Powell was the FIRST ROTC JCS chair.

[hootinholler]

22. A naval Captain is the equivalent to a Colonel (O6)

AKA a bird kernel. The naval rank of Lt. is an O3.

-Hoot

[Captain Hilts]

25. He's talkin' army/marines.

My dad said that when you needed something on a ship, you got the marine captain to make the call because the sailor answering the phone assumed it was a naval 06.

[hootinholler]

63. I thought he's wondering why the Admiral was stuck at Captain for so long.

Marine Captains grow up to be Majors, Navy Captains grow up to be flag rank, Commodore, unless they changed the Admiralty ranks again.

Yeah, that is an old trick. I loved saying "Afternoon Captain" to marine Colonels whilst saluting :D

-Hoot

[Recursion]

39. Which reminds me of a story...

I was stuck on phone watch for a Lt. Col. one day and got this call.

"This is Captain Jones... I need to speak to Lt. Colonel Smith RIGHT NOW"

*Lance Corporal Dmesg's eyes roll...*

"Oh, sure, sir, I'll transfer you right through..." *click*

*ring ring*

"*cough* This is Captain Jones US Navy..."

*sound of Lance Corporal Dmesg's testicles re-ascending into his body cavity...*

[jollyreaper2112]

57. better story

probably apocryphal but who cares, it's good.

Some lowly airman is answering the phone on graveyard shift.

airman: Hi, what d'ya need?

phone: Is that any way to answer the phone?! Do you know who I am!

airman: nope

phone: I'm General so and so, commander of this base!

airman: do you know who I am?

phone: No!

airman: Good *click*

[fasttense]

48. Not a jump to major, a jump to Lieutenant Commander.

It would be a Major in the Army, it is LCD in the Navy. I'm just a stickler for Navy rank.

[hootinholler]

64. Captain to Lt. Commnder is a 2 grade bust in the navy. n/t

[jmowreader]

65. In Petraeus' case, it's no big deal

According to the Wikipedia article on him, this is his career after 1979:

Commander, Company A, 2d Battalion, 19 Infantry (Mechanized)
Operations Officer, 1st Battalion, 30th Infantry (Mechanized)
Aide de Camp to the Commanding General, 24th Infantry Division (Mechanized)
(This caught my eye for a second. Petraeus was the 24th ID CG's aide-de-camp, his personal assistant, in 1981. I knew Norman Schwarzkopf had commanded that division, so I started looking...turns out Petraeus' stay at division HQ predated Schwarzkopf's by two years. Something interesting: about a week after General Schwarzkopf took command of that division, he sent out a commander's note stating that he believed the next war would be fought in the desert, so to be prepared every subordinate unit of the 24th ID would paint all its vehicles in desert camouflage. Everyone thought he was shithouse crazy for doing this--Fort Stewart is very heavily wooded--but he turned out to be right.)

After he left the 24th ID, he went to the Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, then went to Princeton for his masters and doctorate. When you're sitting in school like Petraeus was, you don't get promoted. Then he was an instructor at West Point.

So yeah, eight years as a captain sounds about right.

Now...once he got back from school they promoted him to major and put him on a lot of different staffs--he was on Hugh Shelton's staff when General Shelton was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and it don't get no better than that.

We are looking at, essentially, a professional Yes Man who grew up in the zero-defects Army. (I should write a screed on the travesty that is Centralized Promotion.)

[Captain Hilts]

7. Petraeus's chest candy is an embarassment. Combined, Ike, Nimitz, and King...

didn't have that much chest candy.

In fact, Nimitz didn't usually wear anything other than rank insignia. He didn't even wear his submariner's dolphins:



And Gen. George C. Marshall also was a minimalist:

[FunkyLeprechaun]

27. I'll agree with you

And I decided to look at a picture of General William Westmoreland. Seems like he was going the same way as Petraeus.



Petraeus



Westmoreland

For someone who said something about the medals earned, I am not trivializing the medals earned. I just found it interesting that Westmoreland (who said we won Vietnam) and Petraeus (who is saying we're winning Iraq) have similar number of chest candy while Eisenhower, one of the foremost heroes of WWII, only wears three pins in his official picture on Wikipedia (I'm certain he's won more pins).

Then again... I might disagree with you as Wesley Clark is similarly decorated.



(Just trying to find pictures of Wesley Clark wearing his service uniform other than his official photo is quite hard! Seems as soon as he retired, he stopped wearing his uniform)

[Captain Hilts]

68. Westmoreland had been in 3 major wars. LOTS more combat time than Clark, Petraeus, etc. nt

[Recursion]

34. Patton couldn't get enough of them, though

And for all the reasons there are to criticize Petraeus, I still don't think this is one. He doesn't set uniform policy or citation award policy; he's required by the regs to wear the devices he's been awarded.

[Captain Hilts]

40. Patton wore the foreign awards. And a four star could basically design their own uniform....

that's what MacArthur did.

Again, a four star could wear a feather boa if he wanted. Montgomery wore tuxedo pumps. MacArthur extra gold braid, the leather jacket , pleated pants, and rouge.

[ShortnFiery]

58. Then I vote for General Peaches to use "a little rouge" and remove four rows of ribbons.

Three million rows of ribbons - up to his neck, looks really GOOFY. Kind of like when my kid refuses to let me wear my Orange "Yukon Trails" hat before using my snow-blower. It's embarrassing to everyone ... but especially our teens. :P

[grytpype]

17. You know, only TWO MOHs have been awarded in the Iraq War?

It's gone on longer than WW2, and only 2 Medals of Honor have been awarded, both to men who were KIA.

[Captain Hilts]

19. Not nearly so many people involved in actual combat.

It's not a valid comparison.

[Netbeavis]

24. Bashing his medals makes us all Swiftboaters....

Folks, I know its hard, bu lets take the high road here.

Prior to Gen. Petraeus being selected/drafted to hold Bush's water, he was an excellent Army officer and soldier. For his testimony yesterday, feel free to fire away and post away.


Go ahead and criticize Petraeus for toeing Bush's line, but his service to this country, something that many of us have openly chosen not to do, prior to this last year has been nothing less than exemplary and a model for years to come.

To bash the citations, medals and his long honorable service, makes us no better than those we despise. We become the Swift-boaters as that is the same bulls**t they pulled on Kerry.


Attack the message, not the messenger.

[Richard Steele]

35. Then it's a good thing that "wondering how he got one of them" isn't the same as "bashing", eh? nm

[Netbeavis]

47. the question started out harmless enough..

but a few responses were starting to turn nasty.

[Richard Steele]

52. That's a fair statement, IMHO. It's still LIGHT YEARS away from "swiftboating", though. nm

[Netbeavis]

59. its a slippery slope. We can not condemn what we ourselves practice.

I personally take great pride and joy in flaming my GOP friends with such things such as facts versus personal attacks. When all they can come back with is the latest Michelle Malkin blurb, I know I hit'em where it hurt.

Call me kooky.

[Captain Hilts]

37. I see your point. He earned his as much as anyone else in his day earned theirs...it's the system

and he opens himself to politically-motivated criticism when he wrote the Op-Ed in Fall 2004 saying the war was going well.

[Netbeavis]

49. Yeah, you can go after the message and what he wrote

and claim he's dead wrong, but I wouldn't go after him personally.

The problem with upper echelon generals stems from the fact that after being career officers where their promotions were basically based on service and quality of their work, they now have to pander and politic for whomever runs the Pentagon if they want to continue to get promotions or better duty assignments.

Its a bit unnatural for them...just ask Shinseki.

[Captain Hilts]

56. Very true. Dad started his career as a yeoman in the Pentagon...

and didn't want to end it as an admiral in the Pentagon.

Not enough people understand that it is not the job of senior officers to publically differ with political leadership.

[Netbeavis]

61. My grandfather had a long time friend who was a career officer

Who swore he would never be "taken alive"....by that he meant being handed a gold star. He was happy being a full colonel and didn't want to enter into the fray.

[sarge43]

67. Point taken about trashing him for just wearing the chest salad.

That isn't a choice. On the other hand, career types do have a choice after twenty and one day. They can either continue to put up with the crap or take what they have and wish everyone else a fun filled rat race.

[LittleClarkie]

74. I have to agree to some extent. The question is giving me a bit of a 2004 flashback

He earned them, and his chest candy is besides the point anyway.

[ThomWV]

26. I had to get shot to get each of the two that I have.

[Captain Hilts]

60. Wear 'em with pride ThomWV! nt

[Recursion]

33. Najaf

He came under fire in Najaf leading the 101st Airborne and led the defense of the command post, apparently pretty well.

[sarge43]

45. Then he earned it. Nuff said. n/t

[mrbluto]

41. Who cares? ...and why act like a Bushie?

Seriously.

Musing about where he got his medals isn't really pertinent and is too much of a Rovian tactic to waste time on the effort.

I haven't heard him brag about them, nor mention them as a play to patriotism.

If he does, then let's hoist him by that petard - till then there's plenty of more constructive things to discuss in the meantime.

For example, from what I've heard, he says "No one would have predicted we'd be doing so good in Anbar 6 months ago." when, in fact, that is EXACTLY what he predicted about six months ago. He then went on to say that these things have an ebb and flow and hit on other details that, when subjected to analysis, demolish his credibility for what he might say today.

Let's make sure there's no doubt about how "objective" this latest report is.

That said - here's my little fantasy regarding this Petraus report: toss it in the circular file and then we demand they hire back that guy who said we'd need 300k troop force to succeed when this thing started(Shinseki? The one they fired), give him a month, a staff, a budget, some subpoena power, financial and legal assurances that he and his staff won't get whacked for saying what he really thinks, and then... see what he says.

Think that will ever happen? No?

Have any ideas about another approach that will get us the truth?

'cause calling Petraeus's medals into question ain't it.

[Captain Hilts]

44. A sub veteran board I participate in is asking the same question, and they're conservatives. It's-

not a bash against Petraeus specifically.

[ShortnFiery]

53. What I don't get is that, I recall that the General Officers during WWI and WWII (pictures)

did not wear the *obscene amount of medals and ribbons* that we see lacquered all over American General Officers today. :shrug:

The number of decorations displayed on Generals' uniforms crosses into "the absurd." Instead of being impressed, I'm nauseated. :(

Remember Boys and Girls, like MAKE-UP on mature women, "less is more." ;)

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. My hubby and I were talking about it

he's a retired USN Chief, bubble head, in 02. I served ten years as a medic south of the border and technically only seven as part of the reserves

The chest candy has gotten ridicolous... and my chest candy, what i had a right to wear, was the five and ten year service bars. Oh I refused the idiocy award

But then we compared it to his niece, AF, who OUT of bootcamp had quite a bit of candy already

Hell it toom him eight years to get a NAM and there is a long story behind that one... after that they started giving them away like candy.

This debases the awards, to be homest

[Captain Hilts]

77. Bubbleheads didn't use to get many medals....

Dad retired an 06 and had six - all earned BEFORE his sub command. His command was very successful, but they didn't hand out medals for that. He retired in the late 70s and never received an award after 1961. We discovered he earned one for the Cuban Blockade service in the North Atlantic.

But the sub force didn't really hand out individual awards back then, so Dad's case was not unusual.