Anna Nicole, it seems to me you lived your life like a candle in the wind

[Guaranteed]

I couldn't help but think of Marilyn Monroe the absolute second I realized that the radio was telling me that Anna Nicole had died.

Now, I don't think the comparison is entirely valid. Some might say that Monroe was of a "higher class," or some such thing, than Anna Nicole.

But, for the most part, I think we just saw history repeat itself. The woman was used, and allowed herself to be used, as a sex object for so long. And I guess she was used in other ways, as well- as a punching bag, perhaps? She just didn't take care of herself. And I'm not judging her on that, at all. We all walk our own paths, determined by so many circumstances.

It's just sad, what the world can do to a person. It seems like she really tried hard to make it, with what she had.

[FormerDittoHead]

1. Certainly more "Jayne Mansfield" than Marilyn Monroe... n/t

[Dr Fate]

16. Jane had vitality and sass- that's why folks still enjoy her old movies.

If anyone mentions Anna's name in conversation 50 years from now, as you just did with Jane's, I would be very suprised.

[FormerDittoHead]

38. ...but I hope you don't think this comparison to Marilyn Monroe is apt... n/t

[Dr Fate]

43. I do not. Read the rest of my posts. n/t

n/t

[Rock_Garden]

2. Well, they'll be glad to see her up in rock and roll heaven.

She'll surely add a certain something there, too. The crash and burn thing has always been an aspect of the Rocknation. I'll bet a lot of us could say, in greater or lesser ways, there but for the grace of God....Not me personally, of course (ha).

[Dr Fate]

3. We are so void of viable pop-culture that we make Anna our "Marylin"

Marylin gave us iconic imagery, fun movies, and she inspired fashion and even songs like the one you mentioned. Her image still graces everything from TV shirts to high art.

What has Nicole inspired? What part of her "work" will hold up 50 years from now? That is the difference.

Are we are so desperate to make the pop-culture of our times viable that we compare todays crap to yesterdays quality? Could be.

Please do not take this as a personal insult- it is just an observation I have been making lately.

What do you think?

[ScreamingMeemie]

6. Marilyn accomplished this upon her death.

In life, among many, she was a joke. Clark Gable hated her. When she died she became more than a sex symbol. It is what our nation has time and again.

[Dr Fate]

12. But I'll bet a million bucks it wont happen w/ Anna. She did nothing.

No movies that I know of, no good TV shows, just a handful of dated early 90's advertisment photos, some lite porn and a diet aid promotion.

I am sorry she died- I just dont see why she is important as compared to anyone else who died recently, celebrity or otherwise.

[ScreamingMeemie]

15. My comment/opinion remains the same.

Marilyn became an icon after death. That is what I am saying. BGL's thread is very valid.

[Dr Fate]

19. Thanks for you opinion- this has been something I have been thinking about a lot.

How the pop-culture of the past holds up, while todays pop-culture is Kleenex- here today, gone tomorrow.

I think the comparsion is invalid- Monroe's "blowing dress" photo was already iconic while living- millions of women imitated her clothes and hair style while she was alive- I've seen nothing like that with Anna Nicole.
Sure- she became MORE iconic after death- but that wont happen with Anna Nicole- she will be virtually forgotten within months if not weeks- just like this week's number one song.

[Guaranteed]

23. "Are we are so desperate to make the pop-culture of our times viable that we compare todays crap to

yesterday's quality?"

That was what struck me about your previous post. How do you think Anna would answer that question?

Personally, if you're looking for comparisons between the pop culture of the past and of today, you just hit on a goldmine.

[Dr Fate]

28. You have my interest and attention- but what are you saying?

Are we in agreeement or not?

My point is that we ARE indeed desperate to make our culture seem as viable as it once was.

Watch the Oscars- I gurantee you they will make an effort to tie today's focus tested crap to the iconic (sorry to use that word so much) scenes and lines of older movies. They are already doing this in their advertising campagin- little mention of the nominated films- but instead referecnes to movies that are 30-70 years old.

What would Anna say? Whatever her spokes people tell her to say, I guess. Your point that she was trying to imitate Monroe, but only seemed to get the bad parts right is well taken.

[Guaranteed]

29. I'm saying I think Anna demonstrates your thesis.

Anna's approach to life makes your point.

She was trying to rehash the past, in her desperation. She failed. Just like our culture. Anna, herself, REFLECTED our culture.

Oddly, though, she still managed to somehow end up with the same tragic results.

So, what would you call that? Post-post modernism?

[Dr Fate]

31. I love it- begs the questions- Nostalgia=Death? No more heroes? Ground Zero?

Or should we learn from the parts that worked? (good, non-focus tested writing, integrity, ORIGINALITY, taking chances, bottom-up culture & entertainment)

I actually like the fact that her death can get us talking about these kinds of things.

[Recursion]

36. I don't think that's true

How the pop-culture of the past holds up, while todays pop-culture is Kleenex- here today, gone tomorrow.

I don't buy it.

We say that because 99% of what's around today is crap. But 99% of what was around 40 (or 100, or 1000) years ago was crap too. We've just forgotten about it. Give it a couple of decades and our collective tastes will have winnowed out the good stuff.

[Dr Fate]

42. I think it is true. Take a look a Top 40 billboard chart from 40 years ago....

...and compare it to a top 40 billboard chart from 5 years ago.

The songs from 40 years ago still have an audience of all ages (many teens & college students of today still love the Beatles and the Stones-especailly ones who play in bands) and you will recognize almost every song on it-even the low charting ones. You will still hear all those songs on the radio and on TV, in fact-not just one or two of them- but the large majority of them.

I'll bet most folks would not even remember even half the songs from the top 40 of 5 years ago, much less listen to them or be inspired by them to start a band. That's cuz it was disposable crap, no one plays it anymore. It served it's limited purpose and went away.

Same w/ movies- look at the Oscar winners from the 30s, 40s & 50s- they are moslty well remembered, classic, artisitc movies to this day, enjoyed by all ages. Oscar winners from 5 years ago, 20 years ago even? Pu-leeze.

The shit back then was better- it was more subtle, had better writing and was not focus tested or designed to advertise some garbage.

[Recursion]

45. I just took your bet and I stand by it

I checked the 1967 charts. Of the 40 songs, I've heard of 28 of them, and 22 of them are total crap. The 6 good ones were billie joe, I can see for miles, penny lane, respect, light my fire, and ruby tuesday. In fact, '67 is probably a bad year because rock was gasping its last breath and R&B was still trying to find its footing.

Comparing that to today's top 40: 5 of them are non-crap and have some chance of still being sung in a generation: runaway love, sweet escape, say it right, smack that, and that's that. Come to think of it, 2007 is a bad year so far too, so maybe it's a good comparison.

Bad pop songs, ugly buildings, and politicians all become respectable with age...

[saracat]

17. She was a fantastic spokesperson for PETA and did a lot for animals as well as other charities.Do

some research before you say a person accomplishes"nothing".I am not a fan of hers but she certainly contributed to the welfare of our furry frinds and for that alone she will be missed and should be given some credit.

[Dr Fate]

20. I never saw it or heard about it. Like I said, not much impact.

I doubt her activism will be remembered at all- few folks really even agree with PETA.

Having said that- good- I am glad she was politically active, and I appreciate your correction on that minor point- but my overall argument stands- she is no icon now and she will never be one- she left little or nothing for the population at large to remember her by.

[saracat]

27. As I stated, I am not a fan but she will be remembered long after those of

us who have big mouths on DU are forgotten.She will become a legend.Marilyn Monroe was considered a washed up talentless nothing until she dies under suspicious circumstances.Then she became an icon.Such is the nature of celebrity.Anna Nicole's life will be memorialized in films and books.Her story will be huge.Her Supreme Court case alone is worth the story.And BTW, I didn't like Marilyn Monroe either.But it doesn't matter what they were.They will be remembered.They were famous!

[Dr Fate]

30. I seriously doubt it- I would even bet $ on it. But time will tell.

No need for the "big mouth" comment just becuase I dont buy the comparison - I think I am backing up my points pretty well here, and I am being polite about it too.

Anyway-

I have no doubt that someone will make an easily forgotten TV movie, or even a big-budget, focus tested multi-plex affair, but it will be forgotten as well.

Trashy tell all books and tabloid stories will indeed be the order of the day for a few months, but not 50 years from now like with Marylin.

As I said in other posts- Marylin was already iconic WHILE LIVING- no one copied Anna Nicole while she lived.

Time will tell, but I'm sticking w/ my position on this.

[saracat]

37. Sorry! I meant everyone on DU, including myself , is a "Big Mouth"

I just think we have more celebrities today and more ways to create and maintain them.I guess we will see what happens.You may be right but then again, maybe not.Time will tell.

[Dr Fate]

39. We come to an agreeement!

And you are right-LOL! we are all a bunch big mouths- I should not have taken umbrage w/ that factual statement!!!

[saracat]

41. Perfectly OK! From one Big Mouth to another!

And I love the word "umbrage" It just isn't used enough though it seems somre in this thread are taking a lot of it! ;-) ;-)

[Colobo]

24. It's nice to know

She was a spokeperson for PETA (I'm not even close to a PETA supporter, by the way). Good to know she had some core beliefs and was willing to use her public image to promote them.

Still, ANS did not leave a profound mark on American culture like Marilyn Monroe did. Again, she will be remembered more for her weak spots as a human being than for anything else.

[mzmolly]

49. She did loads of movies and had a reality show not long ago.

I wasn't aware of the movie list until Larry King mentioned it tonight. Here's what I found doing a quick search.

Be Cool (2005) Herself
Wasabi Tuna (2004) Herself
Exposed: Anna Nicole Smith (1998)
Skyscraper (1996)
To the Limit (1995)
ColetteNaked Gun 33 1/3:
The Final Insult (1994)
TanyaThe Hudsucker Proxy (1994) Za-Za

Apparently she has a new one coming out that also starred her son Daniel.

Also, she was active with PETA and apparently was a gay rights activist. Friends said that the public figure differed from the private person.

[Colobo]

7. Well said

Anna Nicole Smith will be remembered for marrying an old multi-millonaire and for her lifestyle. In terms of a true cultural legacy, she left none.

[Dr Fate]

14. Except for the most part, I'll she wont even be remembered, not even for that.

n/t

[Guaranteed]

8. Well, I think you could say the same to Anna...and maybe that's the lesson.

She tried the Marilyn Monroe route, and didn't get as "high" as Marilyn herself. She still ended up dead in a hotel room, though.

So maybe she taught us something after all. :shrug:

[Dr Fate]

13. Hey- I like that! n/t

n/t

[cynatnite]

21. It's hard to say...only time will tell...

Marilyn didn't get the status she has now until after her death if I understand that time correctly. She was more movie star than celebrity. Anna was more celebrity so maybe she won't become as iconic.

River Phoenix was a very talented actor and could have went on to do great movies. His life was cut short, but now he's almost forgotten.

There is just no way of knowing until some time has passed.

[Dr Fate]

26. Not to argue, but Marylin was indeed iconic while living. Just like James Dean & Elvis.

Her "blowing dress" scene was iconic at the time- so was the Elvis snear and the James Dean sulk.

Folks copied their look, hair and dress and attitude while they were alive- not so with Anna Nicole.

If anything, entertainment types and taste-makers are all still trying to capture the essense of the 3 old icons mentioned above more than any current celebrity.

[smoogatz]

44. I think you're spot on.

Marilyn was a very talented comic actress--watch her in "Seven Year Itch," if you haven't already. She's perfect in the part, and very, very sexy. It's wrong to suggest, too, that she only became an icon after her death--she was a major star, and inhabited the dreams of a generation of boys/young men. I don't think the same could be said for Anna Nicole.

[Cobalt Violet]

50. That's yet to be seen. n/t

[Colobo]

4. It's also sad

what a person can do to himself/herself. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your post... but it's like Mike Tyson: he's been a victim of fame, money and himself, with the last one being the biggest problem.

[ScreamingMeemie]

5. I think the comparison is completely valid.

Marilyn Monroe was born into a shaky family situation, married young and got her start by posing for a pinup calendar, was never taken seriously, only reached legendary status after her death etc...

And has had people gossiping about her life ever since.


Completely. Valid.

[Dr Fate]

9. I would love your opinion on my specific points in post #3.

The comparison on it's face is valid, but looking at the big picture- pop-culture and it's inspirational potential as a whole, is it valid?

[ohioINC]

10. tragic icon

So many stories end this way. It's horrible.

[CelticWinter]

11. I thought the same thing

when I heard it on the news. I wasnt an Anna fan but she was human and made human mistakes...I hope her story doesnt end like Marilyn's shrouded in mystery with her death. The death of her son, now her, I wish the best for her young daughter. There are alot of stories unfolding in 2007, I think it will be a very busy year, and I hope hers will not end in mystery. As for the other stories unfolding this year I hope that we get the answers we have all be waiting for.
Celtic

[HuffleClaw]

18. erm, imo the difference between the two was that marilyn had the virtue

of being talented.

[Dr Fate]

22. So much that she is still beloved and emulated 50 years later.

Pop stars & fashion industry types still copy her look and attitude.

This will NOT be the case with Anna Nicole, no disrespect for the dead meant, it's just a fact.

[L A Woman]

25. I like your last line...

it IS sad what the world can do to a person. it's complex and people are very quick to judge people like her, but i quite liked her. maybe because she reminds me of me, a little...i mean, not really, but sort of. someone who grew up poor with very few prospects and somehow managed to get out when the vast majority of her classmates settled for that miserable, gloomy, boring small-town life. but she did pay a big price...

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RPM]

33. yawn

how many times will this trite "candle in the wind" stuff be pulled out?

[Dr Fate]

34. Until our current culture can replace quality for misplaced nostalgia.

I tend to agree witht he basic sentiment of your post.

Again, no offense or personal insult meant to the OP, who has subsequently made several interesting and fascinating points that are for me, not worth yawning at.

[Guaranteed]

35. Dreadfully sorry, old sport!

What insights into humanity have you gleaned from this? Other than from my OP?

[JVS]

40. But she was the people's princess!

Like Princess Di, and that horse! :-)

[Guaranteed]

47. BTW, the word "trite?"

SO commonplace.

Try this:

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/trite

[girl gone mad]

46. I think it's an apt comparison.

Both women had similar backgrounds and were similarly troubled sex symbols. Both were essentially empty vessels, reflecting our own cultural priorities (I'm not saying there was no substance underneath, just that it didn't matter to the public).

I think in Marilyn's day the priorities were successful men (her relationships with them made news and made her a much bigger star), politics, booze and easy women. Our modern priorities appear to be weight loss, plastic surgery, prescription drugs, trashy celebrity 'reality' and easy women.

People can argue that Marilyn was classier or smarter. In truth, her image was just that: an image, created by other people, much of it crafetd posthumously. She might have been just as ditzy and irritating as Anna in real life. We don't know because she was allowed more of a private life and studios controlled the stars and much of what was put in print. Certainly society as a whole has gotten dumber and trashier. If Marilyn were alive today, I think her public persona would reflect that difference.

Funny how the more things change the more things stay the same.

[Cobalt Violet]

51. True, they are women of different eras.

Apples and oranges. It irritates me that someone would pass judgment on who is classier than who as if any of us knew either of them.

[ruggerson]

48. Marilyn created art

and was snuffed out as her genius was beginning to truly blossom. Rent the Misfits and really watch it.

Anna will be remembered for tabloid antics, chronic lawsuits, drug use and her reality show.

Their legacies will be like night and day.

Having said that, Anna was a vulnerable, likeable soul, and her tale is a sad one. One wishes she could have found more peace and love.

[meow mix]

52. i wouldnt.. anna rocked. i dont know if very many people have ever existed

who were as sweet and nice as anna. she had crazy-goodness in her heart.