What I find amusing about people who state they want a draft is...

[Javaman]

they themselves are never of a draftable age.

Funny how that works, huh?

[sinkingfeeling]

1. Maybe because those who support the draft were drafted the last time it was around?

[Wilber_Stool]

9. Delet

[Javaman]

12. So you are all for supporting a draft of young people for a war based on lies? nt

[Telly Savalas]

68. And it was such a great experience for them they feel like they'd

be cheating our youth by denying it to them?

[BlooInBloo]

2. False.

[Javaman]

5. do you care to support your argument? or do you just like throwing BS around? nt

[BlooInBloo]

11. It wasn't an argument it was a statement. I am a counterexample. End of story.

[Javaman]

13. So then you state a negative with no supporting argument.

that means you support a draft. are you of draftable age?

[BlooInBloo]

16. I wouldn't be a counterexample if I weren't. Sheesh.

[Javaman]

18. so then why don't you enlist? and beat the draft? nt

[BlooInBloo]

22. Hence your OP statement is simply false.

[Javaman]

26. are you of a draftable age? nt

[AnotherGreenWorld]

27. Support for a draft does not entail support for the war. It would actually likely lead to the war's

end.

[Javaman]

30. As other posters have stated in other threads, please give me an example from

history where a draft has ended a war?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

53. Vietnam

[Javaman]

55. nope wrong.

the draft started in 1970. when did the war end? how many were killed before it ended?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

58. 1975.

The war ended because it was unpopular. It wouldn't have been that unpopular without a draft.

[Javaman]

60. Read your history.

the war was way unpopular prior to the draft. Troop rotations were decreasing prior to the draft.

And you said it yourself, "The war ended because it was unpopular".

not the draft.

it was the daily death tolls that were turning the american public against the war.

people were wondering back in 1966 why were there.

[flamin lib]

65. Beg to disagree. The 'Nam war was hugely popular in the early

years. Like I said up thread, my mom was really big on killin' them commies 'til I got drafted. The press was initially very supportive of the war effort with glowing reports of actions and battles with glorious results. The Pentagon did all they could to get independent US journalists in-country. 'Bout 69-70 the media turned sour on the war and began reporting the down side of killing people and tearing things up. When pictures of open rebellion like Charlie Company began to surface and the body bags hit damn near every village and hamlet in America things changed.

Don't need to read no stinkin' history . . .

[Javaman]

82. "Don't need to read no stinkin' history . . . "

And there is your problem.

and contrary to all the armchair generals you like to listen to, vietnam wasn't widely popular.

much like now, most of the people here didn't even know where vietnam was when we first sent troops and were brainwashed into thinking we were over there to stop communism.

all wars are about resources and money. read up sometime about the rubber plantations in vietnam but since you don't need to read no stinkin' history, just keep believing it was widely popular and it was all about getting those stinking commies.

look out, your ignorance is showing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Actually you are wrong

it was widely popular in the begining, just like THIS war was widely popular in the begining

It was also sold on a pack of lies, just like THIS was was sold on a pack of lies

And it was also a colonial exercise, just like this war is a colonial exercise

Yep, your ignorance is showing

And in forty years you will also say that this war was not popular from the get go

[TahitiNut]

98. It's a waste of time and effort ...

... as my sig line aptly states. :shrug:

Over there, over there,
Send the word, send the word over there -
That the Yanks are coming,
The Yanks are coming,
The drums rum-tumming
Ev'rywhere.
So prepare, say a pray'r,
Send the word, send the word to beware.
We'll be over, we're coming over,
And we won't come back till it's over
Over there.

No matter when, it's ALWAYS been far easier to get into a war than to get out of one. And we almost NEVER seem willing to pay the price of making the mistake of getting in in getting out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. And it is also easier to make up shit up

yep I know, I feel like the Quixote at times

[Javaman]

125. Frankly, I don't care what you think...

I just know what I know from extensive study of the cold war.

I'm far from ignorant on this topic but continue thinking the way you do, it's your choice.

have a nice day.

[flamin lib]

107. Look, I lived that war. Don't try to tell me about some freaking book.

Just like Iraq the general populace was gung ho in the beginning. Remember that we were in the middle of the Cold War and Communism was the big bad enemy. It took 5-6 years for Mom & Pop Citizen to fall out of love with the idea of killing them over there so we didn't have to kill them here.

I could write the goddam history book.

[Javaman]

126. They why don't you?

i have been studying the cold war for the past 20 years and have written several papers on the topic.

If you choose to refute me, fine, that's your choice, but I would suggest that if you are such an authority, then write that book.

Have a nice day.

You will now be blocked. :)

[uppityperson]

67. Nice myth, but not accurate.

10 yrs, 50,000 dead, draft the whole time. More like Viet Nam ended the draft, not the draft ending Viet Nam war.

[Pyrzqxgl]

124. The draft was only one factor that brought Viet Nam to an end & a small enough one at that.

A bigger factor was the opposition to the draft, along with all those body bags coming home on the nightly news.
I can't see installing a draft just so we can have an anti-Draft movement. Thats cutting off your nose to spite your
face. I marched against the draft. I got firehosed and nightsticked & called all kinds of names & because of the time
I spent demonstrating, I didn't finish college like I should have. Thats my fault but we don't need to give this generation
something else to demonstrate agains. It seems they've got enough all ready.

[Warren Stupidity]

69. The war got large in 65. The draft was already active at the time.

Some people here oddly confuse the lottery reform of 69 with the draft. Conscription continued after WWII through the Korean War (famously in the 50's Elvis was drafted)and straight through the Vietnam War up to 1973. The Vietnam War continued until 75. While clearly the draft fueled antiwar protests, the major effect of those protests were the implementation of the lottery system and then the end of the draft. The war followed its own course, and much like our current quagmire, the political will to actually end it, despite the obvious fact that it was unwinnable, kept us involved until 75 when, after Watergate, a briefly independent Congress actually had the courage to act. Five years later the counter revolution of Reaganism started the long slide back to where we are today.

[Art_from_Ark]

76. Although the Viet Nam War did end in 1975

American military involvement effectively ended in January 1973. I think that many things led to the eventual end of American involvement, including:

The gradual realization by many influential Senators and Congresspeople (perhaps starting with Senator J. William Fulbright in 1966) that the war was wasting a lot of resources and lives

The Tet offensive

The famous photos of the mayor of Saigon executing a suspected Viet Cong, the naked napalmed girl running down the road, the My Lai massacre.

Then there were the secret bombings of Cambodia and Laos beginning in 1970, which were not popular with anyone except the super hawks, and the trial of Lt. William Calley (of My Lai massacre fame) in 1970.

Of course in 1970, there was also the Kent State massacre and the beginning of the lottery (birthday)- based draft (but there was, as you mentioned, a draft long before that, as Muhammed Ali (Cassius Clay) learned in 1967.

There was also the famous Pentagon Papers case and the scandal revolving around the break-in of the office of the psychiatrist of the man (Daniel Ellsberg) who disclosed the papers.

Not to mention the growing list of parents who saw their sons coming home physically and/or emotionally scarred, or even in flag-draped coffins, and the growing feeling that there was no end in sight for the war.

[wtmusic]

28. weak logic

Akin to arguing that if you support raising income tax, you should be donating money to the US Government.

[Javaman]

32. My logic is only as weak as the information given.

since the poster chooses not to elaborate, I can only assume.

[Wilber_Stool]

15. I will.

I was drafted last time around and I support the draft. It also seams you are easily amused.

[Javaman]

17. So you are all for supporting a draft of young people for a war based on lies? nt

[Wilber_Stool]

25. Of course not. Can you argue against the need

for a standing Army? If you can, then I will concede. I say every body puts their name in the hat. No exceptions. You will get a higher quality better educated group that is less prone to the mind control used on todays troops.

[Javaman]

29. That would be nice if everyone was honest but we don't live in that reality...

for as long as there have been armies, the wealthy and privileged have always found a way out of serving.

a draft, as much as some people argue with their various schemes to make it "equal" and have everyone serve, generally never is or was set up in such a way to allow people to escape service of one type or another.

just the facts.

[tabasco]

40. My fiance is from a wealthy German family.

Both of her brothers had to serve in the military for 20 months.

It is possible to have a strict system in which rich kids have to serve too.

[Javaman]

41. sure it is, but we also aren't Germany and don't have a conscription army. nt

[tabasco]

48. You said:

"for as long as there have been armies, the wealthy and privileged have always found a way out of serving. "

I proved to you that they have not. Your reply is just spin.

The US could have the same system as modern Germany's, in which the rich DO have to serve.

[Javaman]

50. Try selling to the American public and I will bet you people here

especially the rich will find a way out.

Also without any stats we don't know for sure whether or not the rich are able to avoid the conception army in Germany. Knowing politics and power, I bet you some have.

[tabasco]

59. The rich love the volunteer military.

It is a mercenary army that can be used for corporate profits. With control of the media, they convince millions that the phony wars are making us safer.

I would only support a system in which there were virtually no deferments. I would never support a system like during Vietnam with the deferments. The rich will fight my idea. They think they are above military service. That's why it will probably never happen.

The volunteer, mercenary army creates the situation in which many people (especially warmonger republicans) say, in effect, "they volunteered - fuck 'em."

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. I'll add Israel to that list

the kids of rich kids not only serve, but try to get their asses into elite units such as the Paratroops and commandos, where the risks of geting killed are higher

[pnwmom]

137. The volunteer force was meeting well the need for a standing army.

The draft was ended in order to reduce the chance that the government would get us into unpopular wars such as Vietnam. Without a draft, we would never have been able to maintain a huge force over there for years, and we would never have had more than 57,000 deaths.

[LanternWaste]

34. i think on DU the support for a draft is not to kill your children

I think on DU the support for a draft is not to kill your children, but to open a broader based dialog to act as an additional tool to end the war.

Hence, it becomes quite disingenuous to apply motivations to us. You can frame how you like, but it won't change our actual motivations.

[Javaman]

38. Discussing the draft is one thing having a draft is an entirely different matter...

I think many people like to propose a draft but when push comes to shove (I hope to god it never comes to that) then the draft argument and those that support it will fail.

reality is a bitch.

I have no children and I'm not of draftable age, but I would damned if I was about to consider a draft and have someone else's kid throw him or herself in the line of fire for my misplaced priorities.

[chefgirl]

77. I can accept your premise

I think on DU the support for a draft is not to kill your children, but to open a broader based dialog to act as an additional tool to end the war.

...But in the meantime, you know, that hazy, gray period of time between the draft being reinstated and the Bush administration giving a flying shit what the American people think, my only child is sent off to war to die, or worse, KILL, for a bullshit war that never should have been started in the first place.

But, hey, thats OK, I guess... as long as you get to make some political point about war being bad and all.

-chef-

[LanternWaste]

99. Getting a draft bill that will by design lose,

Getting a draft bill that will by design lose, debated in congress will not get anyone drafted-- not even your child. The hawks don't want the draft, and neither do the progressives. The bill would FAIL, but the dialog would be forced.

I don't want a draft-- I want a national dialog and a debate over the draft. There is a specific and relevant difference between the two.

And your implication that I would see your child die to allow me the opportunity to make a political point is very bad form, incorrect, and appears to be somewhat narrow-minded.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. I will add someting else

Drafts in the US historically have had an exception for an only child who is not forced to serve

For the reason the poster stated

I'd like those children to serve, but not in front line units.. hell I'd keep them stateside if I had my way as they are a small nunber of all draftable age males and females, unless the child VOLUNTEERS for military service and some do.

[chefgirl]

111. Thats rich

You're calling for a draft and lecturing ME on bad form, huh? Right.

Color it up and paint it anyway you like, (Getting a draft bill that will by design lose), it would still be giving Congress the opportunity to vote for a draft, that you say you don't want, and it would still be all in an attempt to make a political point.

Why do we need to force a national dialog anyway?? Last time I checked, roughly 70% of the American public is against this bullshit war.

And if its a Democrat that authors the bill, do you feel confident enough that the Republicans wouldn't vote for it? It would be a two-fer for them. Get the draft they want AND get to blame the Democrats for it.

Its a dangerous game you propose. A game, I might add, that the Democrats in Congress have proven themselves utterly unequipped to play. I wonder if you would be so cavalier about it if you had a child whose future depended on the outcome.

-chef-

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. We need a dialogue on national service

what means to be an Ameircan, and what do we owe the country in exchange for the fruits of citizenship

That is the dialogue we need

As citizens we owe the country in both good and bad times... and we need to pay for both the sweet fruits and the bitter ones

I know, this concept of service is alien to many of you

[chefgirl]

116. Possibly

And possibly the concept of the political reality we live in is alien to many of you.

If we were living in different times, I would agree with you completely about national service. I have always been in favor of that 'concept', surprising as that may be to you.

I spent 14 years married to a man who did a 22yr career in the Navy. I sacrificed when no one was paying attention, trust me. I was always absolutely supportive of his career in service to this country.

I have also told my son that if this country were ever truly in danger, I would be the first one pushing him out the door to do his duty and fight for the freedoms we all enjoy. Don't attempt to judge this book by the cover. I fully understand the 'concept' of national service.

I also understand that this BULLSHIT war started by this BULLSHIT president is NOT one that I'm willing to predicate a dialog about national service upon. If you really think for one minute that now is the time for that, well then you'll have to excuse me, but I believe you're seriously fucking deluded.

-chef-

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. The conversation on service has to happen

and it has to happen now

It is part of the reason why we are here, and you may thank Ronnie Reagan for that

It is a selfish act, and people tend to be extremely selfish, and the society we live in this is rewarded

So the conversation has to start

As to Navy, yep navy wife here, and I did my time as well, in somebody else's military, so I know a thing or two about sacrifice and service

And how these principles are lacking from the society at large

the evidence is all around you.

Katrina is just the best example

As to judging a book by its cover... well let me tell you... that is the cover you give, that is the cover I will judge you by

By the way, historically American Drafts do include a single child exception.

[chefgirl]

121. Why am I not surprised?

that is the cover you give, that is the cover I will judge you by

How very enlightened of you. Life must be a bowl of cherries in your world. You know, never having to look any further than the cover of a book. Why, it sounds downright George Bush-ish.

Historically, yes, the draft has included single child exceptions.

The problem with that is (and I'm tempted to believe you might have noticed if you had looked more deeply into the current situation in this country than the book cover George Bush has provided for you) there is nothing about this administration that has shown ANY respect for our historically accepted American traditions.

Now is absolutely NOT the time for a debate about the 'concept' of national service.

Of course, you are still free enough in George Bush's America to go and offer your services. It'll be you and all those other well meaning Democrats who still believe that America means what it did before the little idiot stole the office of the Presidency.

In a different time, with a different President (as Ive already explained) I would be all for it.

We've crossed the rubicon, my friend. Look beneath the cover.

-chef-

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. I know quite a bit of the bush administration

far more than you think I do

Fact is, we are here because we have become a selfish lazy people

NIMBY is our current way of life

And by god, the econimic draft is fine... but NOT MY CHILD, oh no,

And service to the country and self awareness is not what you do

By the way, the cover you gave me is a selfish one...

And I have not insulted you, nor will I start...

Suffice it to say I am, have been and will be for National Service, now and forever

And I am also aware that I am in the minority

I was for it when Clinton proposed it

I was for it since I remember.

I have not changed just becuase the Dictator in chief is in place

As to crossing the rubicon, if that is the case, the draft will come, and your son will be taken, as Empires do what empires will do, does not matter who or what party controls the WH

[pnwmom]

138. While we're at it, should we have a discussion on slavery?

Because what is required national service? By definition it is involuntary servitude.

[LanternWaste]

117. Calling for a debate on the draft is not calling for a draft...

Calling for a congressional or senatorial debate on the draft is not calling for a draft. I'm sorry if I caught you on a bad day, but you appear to deny to yourself that there is a most specific and highly relevant difference between the two.

By all means, infer from what I write that I want to see your child dead in a war. Interpret that I'd like to see my son maimed, attribute to my post that I hold debate a meatier substance than actual war, or that a corpse is merely a prop on my stage. Why one would continue to consciously impute or misalign this most easy of opinions is not for me to say, but it is wrong.




As an aside: I agree with your position that 70% of Americans are against this war-- but I'm not seeing a national debate. I'm not seeing the discussions about it at the water cooler. Nor do I hear it when I go to the grocery store, the library or the church. I don't hear the arguments anywhere but forced in the MSM.

[chefgirl]

119. Congressional debate? At what risk?

A specific and highly relevant difference between the two?? In theory, yes..in practice, not so much if you think about the way Congress actually operates these days.

If you agree that 70% of Americans are opposed to this war, then again, I say to you, why the need for a national dialog about the draft?? Makes no sense.

Also, I'll thank you to stop accusing me of assigning intentions to you that I have not done. I don't believe for a minute that anyone really wants to see someone elses child die. To imply that I do is specious, at best.

I DO, however, believe that its easy to be flippant and cavalier when advocating for a ridiculous political policy when its someone else's child who will bear the burden.

-chef-

[Javaman]

83. I will agree with you to an extent...

however there are people, just in this thread alone, that advocate a draft and has nothing to do with a broader based dialog.

[endarkenment]

3. In all fairness

we have had one or two here claim that they are draft age. Then again, on these internets nobody except agent mike knows that you are a dog.

[Javaman]

8. why yes of course I am a movie star with a 12 figure contract and I post on DU! LOLOLOL nt

[AnotherGreenWorld]

4. Not true...

[Javaman]

7. And as I said above to someone else, do you care to support your arguement? nt

[sniffa]

90. do you care to support yours?

aLL draft supporters are overweight.

[Javaman]

129. My experience in my life has been just that..

and that includes people here on DU.

The people who are either unable to join or be drafted because of age or some other reason, have been, in my experience the first ones to cry for a draft to 1) "wake up today's youth" (a very old and belabored argument and 2) it would raise america's conscious (as if the war doesn't do that now)

these arguments have been around for as long as their have been drafts and they all have been proposed by people to old to serve or unwilling to serve because they believe they could do more good at home for the war effort.

It's nothing new.

[flamin lib]

6. I was drafted.

I view the draft with mixed emotions. It would do four things:

Makes youth politically aware and active. You pay attention when there's the possibility somebody will shoot at you.

Makes parents politically aware and active. My mom was all for killin' them commies until her baby boy got drafted.

It fills the ranks with short-timers that come home and tell everybody what is REALLY going on.

It would make my grandchildren vulnerable to some two bit tin plated demigod like Bush.

Really mixed emotions.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. Agree. I was not drafted, but only because I drew a high number.

The military itself is somewhat schizo about the draft. It is true that draftees can make for unwilling soldiers, as opposed to volunteers, but we fought and won a couple of really big ones with draftees so it's not necessarily the case. Draftees will serve very well if they know and believe in the cause, such as fighting Nazis in WW2, but not so much fighting for corporate profits. IMO, that's why we went to all-volunteer - we knew the fights in the future would be for influence and resources, not for defending the country. A lot of small, proxy wars. If something really big came along the chances are it would be over before the draft could kick in, with either a quick conventional victory or a rapid escalation to nukes - either way the draft is superfluous. Nobody counted on the incompetance of the Bushies.

[TahitiNut]

36. It's not as simple as cause->effect.

It's more a matter of a national resolve to fully participate and share burdens of self-governance ... sharing the fruits, both sweet AND sour, of our own democratic self-governance. It's too easy to "let George do it" and pretend it's reality TV waiting for your text message (for only $0.99).

Please ... read what I posted at http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/403

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. Good article but I think Lute is serious

they need bodies, period... and the back of the volunteer force is broken

[TahitiNut]

106. I tend to think that either of two conditions exist.

Either democracy is dead enough that the autocrats and MIC truly think themselves free to activate a draft without concern over having the People actually exercise their Authority over their own government ...

or

... democracy is alive enough that people will grow up and willingly step up to the plate and exercise their sovereignty and participate in their own self-governance.

Sadly, I believe it's closer to the former than the latter. It also seems clear that democracy was far healthier in the 60's ... even if too weak to impose the will of the majority in CORRECTING an error ... than it is now.

One of the things that exacerbates my worries is that the military is far, far more stratified into the elite "Praetorian Guards" and cannon fodder than it was forty years ago - despite the growth of elite, overly-compliant, and zealous "special forces." The very structure of the military itself is far, far more politically-aligned than in WW2, Korea, and even Viet Nam.

It can only become more so as the People fail to take control of their own self-governance.

It's a dynamic that I fear few are seeing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. I agree, few see what is truly going on

the third posiblity, democracy is dead, but they need the military to impose Empire

(at this point it is so damn easy few realize it)

[pnwmom]

141. People were aware and out in the streets protesting in Vietnam and yet

more than 57,000 troops died, in a war that lasted more than 10 years.

Haven't we learned anything?

A draft fuels the flames of war, it doesn't put them out. That's what we had learned when we ended the draft after Vietnam.

[bamacrat]

10. I just turned 24, I dont want a draft, but believe it would bring about a revolution in this country

Or I hope it would. My girlfriend has already told me were there a draft she would break my legs. So, I dont know how to take that. Thanks I guess.

[Javaman]

14. She obviously loves you, but sadly it won't get you out of a draft only a delay...

however, if she crippled you, that would be another story.

[bamacrat]

24. Heres hoping it won't come to that.

:toast: :smoke: :beer:

[Javaman]

33. Cheers! nt

[Sapere aude]

19. When I got my draft letter there were a bunch of people telling me to go to Canada.

I didn't want to have to live as an exile and I didn't want to hide in this country the rest of my life. I chose to do as I was directed. I figured I may survive 2 years in the military and that would be better than the life as and exile.

I would expect many people would do the same and the war would still go on and maybe even escalate because we have more troops to send in.

The draft will not stop the war. More people will die.

[Javaman]

20. Here here. :) nt

[flamin lib]

45. I know what you mean. My letter came two weeks after I married

my high school sweetheart. We talked about Canada. I did the math and it came out like this: One in about 5 draftees went to 'Nam. Of those one in about 8 saw a combat role. Of those 98% returned without physical injury. On the other hand, every draft evader in Canada lost his citizenship, the right to vote and was subject to prison upon return. The risk/benefit ratio was in favor of being drafted. Had I known that that there would be a pardon things might have been different.

[UTUSN]

21. I volunteered in 1967. n/t

[wtmusic]

31. Do you support a draft? nt

[UTUSN]

35. Yes. That's why I chimed in. It's equality instead of just the poor & ethnic. And it will

get the anti-war motivated to protest. And when I said this in another thread, somebody jumped all over me saying I was "naive" to say the protesters stopped the Vietnam war. I never said that. I usually try to say what I literally mean: Get the anti-war people to protest, which they are not doing much of.

[Javaman]

39. so your argument is: if there is a draft, people will protest.

what if the people who get killed as a result of the draft?

[UTUSN]

43. The protest is one consequence that will contribute to stopping the war earlier

as far as can be guessed. So volunteers should be the ones to die, then everything's O.K.? Pinning one down with words only leads to artificial stances. I detest arguing and "debating." We all have our opinions and are not likely to change them with debates.

[Javaman]

51. I never said volunteers should die, but then again they are volunteering

and by that term they sign up to give their life as part of the job.

I don't believe in war. I'm a devout pacifist.

If you don't like arguing and debating, why did you reply?

[UTUSN]

66. R u playing the "last word" game?!1 n/t

[Javaman]

128. fine. If you have to resort to childrens games to make your point, knock yourself out.

You will now be blocked.

[libodem]

37. yes

I can't be drafted but I have three boys, 27, 25, 22. I have 4 friends who have lost kids in accidents. The grief is unbearable. The change in people's psyches, permanent. Horrible to observe and participate. The loss is senseless. I have a 23 year old nephew in the Army. He has been to Iraq once. He is due to deploy again in September. He is like a brother to my 22y/o and I am his favorite Auntie. My oldest went into the army in 1999 and was discharged in 2003. Don't think I wasn't sweatin'. He went in specifically to help with education costs but didn't think the discipline and training were going to hurt either. I was sweating 'stop loss' but many people wanted his MOS so it wasn't a problem. My dad was a WWII vet. I worked in a Veterans' old folks home for 10 years. I watched guys who hadn't ever talked about the war, break down in their 80's, when dementia onset weakened the doors to the memories. The one I am thinking of, didn't cry about being captured or being held POW but because he was the pilot of a downed plane and the crew was killed. He still felt guilty after all those years, that he had survived. War fucks with your head. Some how having dinner every night as a young teen with the Viet Nam war, made me feel like the war was in my house. My dad was for the war at first but became very opposed later. The casualty count was a lot higher then and the boys were drafted. I hated that draft! I just want the chickenhawks to be so scared they might have to go that the war will end. I also think the deployents are too long and too often. We are making some people sacrifice way more than their fair share. Young repubs need to step up to the belief plate and ship out.

[Aptastik]

42. I'm 23 and I don't support the draft

I guess I'm not adding much to the argument then. But I feel that a draft disproportionately affects the working class who aren't as likely to go to college and get deferments.

Also, I think since the majority of America is now against the war, the draft wouldn't have the same resonance as it would have had back in 2003 or 2004, when I did support it.

If there was a draft, I would go, however. I love this country too much to just leave. Interesting quandary though, I had never really considered what I would do if there was a draft before.

[Javaman]

52. I understand your point, but...

if you now don't believe in the war, would you still go if you were drafted?

I think this is a fundamental question anyone of potential draft age should be asking themselves.

[Aptastik]

61. I should have rephrased that

I never supported the war. Back in 2003 and 2004 I supported the draft though, mainly because I thought that a draft would turn public opinion against the war.

Now, public opinion is against the war, so I don't feel a draft is necessary.

And like I said, if there was a draft, I would go. The only reason being that I wouldn't want to be forced to leave this country.

[Javaman]

62. Isn't it sad that if you stand by your principles in this country

you would be considered unAmerican?

I'm to old to be drafted so I can't give a qualified answer to the question of, "what would I do if I was drafted?"

But I can understand you quandary.




always peace.

[Done]

44. What I find amusing about people who oppose the draft is...

they themselves tend to be of a draftable age.

Funny how that works, huh?

[Javaman]

54. I'm not of draftable age, I'm 44 and I'm against it. funny how that works, huh? nt

[Done]

64. I'm 47, I will only support the draft if...

they draft people up to age 46. So I guess that means you are, in fact, draftable.


If they want to draft people 47 and older, I would say hell no to the draft. If the war is degrading our military we should end the war and bring our troops home.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Funny some of us served,

and some of us not too long ago

What is more, I am aware that a draft means five kids of draftable age who I personally know

What is even funnier is that by their own admmission, the draft is the only thing that will make them pay attention.

I have served, and I know who I am asking to serve

Funny, ain't it?

And you know what? When all is said and done we do have a draft right now, an ECONOMIC draft

You have a problem with that one? I personally do

[Javaman]

74. When congress declares war, draft eligibility is 48. so you would go to :)

life's a bitch, huh?

[Megahurtz]

145. OR They HAVE KIDS of Draftable Age.

Yeah, duh, Gee, I wonder why that works that way, huh? :dunce:

[HughBeaumont]

46. I'm not of draftable age and I oppose it vehemently.

I HAVE a reason. It's called my stepson, who in six years will be of draft age.

He WILL not be forced to defend KBR, Bechtol and Exxon/Mobil's energy market thefts.

End of fucking sentence.

America's addiction to militarism MUST end and fast.

[Javaman]

56. Thanks :) nt

[Exiled in America]

47. I will not serve if drafted.

Just letting you know.

[Javaman]

57. thank you! :)

this is exactly what I'm talking about.

this is the kind of message that needs to be sent to washington.

it's the old concept of, "what would happen if someone went to war and no one showed up".

You have my support.

throwing more bodies at something to prove some rich clueless leaders* ego is not a means to an end. It's stupidity.

[sallyseven]

49. Mention draft and every white republican in the US

will have a fit. A thought of the draft would send them into a tizzy and this war would be over in 90 days. They want the poor to go to war and then discard them when they return. They are all like bush the tush.

[AnneD]

63. You're barking up the wrong tree here.....

I felt it was important enough to give back to my country that I volunteered and did 8 years in USAR (and more in IRR). This was after the draft was discontinued and as a woman. My experience was very positive thing in my life. I learned self discipline, leadership, overcoming my own fears to do courageous things, strategy, camaraderie, diversity, tolerance, confidence, and a deep love of country. I got most of that out of boot camp.

I think the problem is folks are to quick to send the military in when they have not had war experience. I think the fact that upper class folks like Bush Jr., that get out of real service, are not given that 'equalizing experience' that makes them better people. They just become self-absorbed ner do wells that live off their trust funds.

Public education use to provide an equalizing experience, but private schools have done away with that. We really do need something that gives us cohesion and helps folks become less self centered. I think every kid should give 2 years of service back to the country-either military or via peace corp.

[Lilith Velkor]

73. 2 years working retail would do that. n/t

[AnneD]

81. I've worked in retail.....

and no it won't-even during the Christmas season.

That comment cheapens both the self sacrifice and honor of commitment to the ideas that made our country the great experiment in democracy. It actually brings up a point of rise in power of the cooperation over democracy (or will of the people). Yes, two years experience in a store will protect democracy...right.

In fact, I find your remark both flippant and insulting. It is the very attitude that I alluded to. Too much self absorption and not enough thought to the greater good. Perhaps you need to crack a history book or two- maybe about Valley Forge or something about the fate of the signers of the Declaration of Independence or even a book about the works of Mother Theresa in Calcutta or Profiles in Courage by JFK.

[Lilith Velkor]

86. OK, so making starving people pray for food - or shooting them - protects democracy.

Gotcha. :eyes:

You see, that's the thing. It's harder to put on airs like you're a hero or a saint when you're wearing a paper hat. It takes self-sacrifice and a sense of honor to actually walk in the shoes of the least among us, and not just give them handouts or threaten them with automatic rifles.

As for the corporations, they own your ass whether you wear a helmet or a paper hat, and the sooner people wise up to that, the better.

[AnneD]

88. OK...

I can only imagine what life experiences have stunted your soul and darkened your outlook. I understand the nature of your first comments and where they come from.

By walking in the shoes of a soldier you also learn that war is not the only way, and this is the point I have been trying to make. The other point is that it has the benefit of challenging you to become better.

To be religious and give is not to put on airs. The whole point of giving is not to curry favour with some god-it is to make you a better person and in the process, experience true joy. I have had the privilege of being in the presence of some truly holy people (one was famous, the others were not well known). They talked the talk and walked the walk-there was no 'airs' to it.

[Lilith Velkor]

115. Who are you to pronounce my soul 'stunted'?

Whatever, at least my brain isn't stunted enough to embrace the idea of sending kids to war to show them that war is wrong.

They can learn that on most every street corner where I live, by simply talking to the homeless veteran who begs there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Then do the Peace Corp

or emergency services, for free

Or fire brigades

There are many places you can serve that do not involve a rifle, but involve self sacrifice

[Lilith Velkor]

110. Fire/emergency service draft is a good idea

:thumbsup:

Perhaps one could expand that to the police as well, it might alleviate that pesky power-drunk sociopath problem.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Police, you have reserves all over the country

and both EMS and Police require quite a bit of training

The problem is that many folks round these parts hate the idea of ANY form of public service, be it paid, volunteered or drafted

[shadowknows69]

70. Wait for it Java

With all the wars the PNAC want to accomplish they'll be taking people up to 65 any time now.

[Javaman]

131. Oh I know they will.

There is a giant cross section of people on here and in the general public that really believes they will be exempt from a draft, by believing in some sort of bizarre fantasy that expired when moron* was installed.

[NYC Liberal]

71. Yes. There are people here who will

scream at the top of their lungs about how Democrats ought to cut off funding 'right fucking now' and bring home the troops.........

and their solution for achieving that is to increase funding so that we can pull kids out of their homes and send more of them to DIE for this war.

Unbelievable.

[Javaman]

133. It really is...

the short attention span that is displayed by our general public is just remarkable.

Send someone elses kid, they cry, but god help them when it's one of their own.

Then the excuses start flying.

[w8liftinglady]

75. even the neocons that i ask...nicely,,if they favor a draft

they say-hell no.most of our counties population are not Yale legacies

[w8liftinglady]

78. I have my son's pic in a yellow ribbon on the side of my car.

shuts these people up real quick.I ask them to pick their child whose face would appear in that ribbon-give them the website-they aren't interested

[sampsonblk]

79. That is silly. War is fake if you don't have a stake.

A nation needs to be able to field more than 160,000 troops at a time. This is typically done through a draft.

The availability of a draft is not unusual. The absense of a draft is what's unusual. And Bush himself wants it that way. If there were a possibility of a draft, the public would not be so apathetic.

I haven't heard any draft advocates saying they want to see someone else's kids in Iraq. What I am hearing is that they believe, as I do, that having a draft available will restore common sense to the political climate - immediately. What we have now is fake cause we don't have a stake.

Its time to look past this particular conflict, friend. And consider the long-term interests of this nation. We have to be able to fight. And it has to be a last resort. A draft solves two problems.

[AnneD]

84. Catchy phrase....

and ITA. This whole war has had an unreal quality to it.

[Javaman]

136. Sadly, it's very real to the people who lose loved ones daily.

both us and the Iraqi's.

[Javaman]

135. are you of a draftable age? nt

[Sanctified]

80. We don't need a draft.

If there is a shortage of volunteers then your war is fucking unjust. I could never support a draft, I could never look my neighbor in the eye and say, "yeah your child deserves to bleed to death in some foreign country crying for his momma to teach this admin a lesson."

The idea that more dead Americans will end a war is just sick, we don't need a draft we need elected officials with some balls to stand up and say enough is enough.

[Evergreen Emerald]

85. And those people who are in favor of a draft are using troops for political purposes

Just like *ush and just like the senators who voted in favor of giving Bush the power to declare war. It is hypocritical to complain about the war and complain about the way the politicians use the troops for political purposes and then agree to send ANYONE else to die. Especially my child.

[Jed Dilligan]

87. What I find amusing is

their lack of a leg to stand on.

Like this war is so popular without a draft.

I think they're the same crowd who want to Blame Anyone but Our Heroes in Congress.

[sniffa]

89. yep, that's aLL draft supporters. every singLe one.

funny how that works.

what is draft age this time around?

[TahitiNut]

93. It's still 18-26.

:shrug:


I think you must've omitted the :sarcasm: emoticon.

[sniffa]

95. sarcasm smiLies are for the weak

these threads are repetitive.

:boring:

[ComerPerro]

94. most of them are, it seems. What I find especailly hilarious

is that many of those who support a draft say they do so becasue it would make people wake up when the rich Republicans are drafted. Yet these people spend most of their time here posting how rich elitists live in a different world from regular Americans and don't have to deal with the same shit that regular people do. So how in the world can one recognize that the wealthy elites are a privileged class that gets special treatment but not assume that these very people would be able to avoid a draft?

How can they be naive enough to think it would be fair?

[TahitiNut]

103. People often seem more ENVIOUS of the privileged escaping the draft than disgusted with them.

What I see is an overwhelming jealousy ... wanting a "piece of the action" ... and not moral outrage.

Indeed, in the pre-1970 draft the "top 40%" were privileged enough to exempt their kids. In the post-1970 draft, that shrank to perhaps the "top 1%" ... and we high-tailed it out of Nam lickety-split. Now, with an "all volunteer" economic draft, the "top 80%" share in the privilege while the burdens of service are borne by the least privileged. And a majority of DU seems to like that rather than be morally outraged.

Go figure. :shrug:

[ComerPerro]

105. I don't know if its envy that is causing the lack of complete outrage

as much as it is just a symptom of cynicism run amok.

Not much surprises me from BushCo and his base

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. I forgot to tell you this, but I have been in favor of one for

a long time

Funny thing I even served...

But I am sure generalizations are easy to make

Oh and why I am in favor of national service? (The military is just one form)

It equalizes experiences and cretes a sense of nationhood, not necessarily in the sick nationalistic sense you see right attacks on any nation, but the healthy one where people do care deeply about citizens of their nation on the other side of the country, and don't mind things like taxes to pay for all kinds of services and infrastructure.

What has happened in this country is the rise of anomie. Look it up, crack a dictionary.

Mission accomplished

[MH1]

108. Isn't it funny how

many of us who have already served voluntarily would support national service?

Maybe it has something to do with the "free-rider" problem?

Nah...couldn't be...we only want it because we won't be subject to it! Couldn't be because we think citizens should actually serve their country for a year or two! Couldn't be!

:sarcasm:

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. Hey if they told me right now

you know what, we need your skills in the inner cities... or taking care of both Americans and Iraqis I'd jump on that opportunity in a heart beat

Yep, could I get killed doign that? Sure

Would that put a crimp on my life? Absolutely...

But you and I know the principles of self sacrifice.

Funny how people who are dead set against service though exepct the cops outside their door like before they hang up the phone when calling 9.11

[Javaman]

139. And that is why we have an all volunteer army..

I thank you for your service.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

97. It's Not Their Age I Find Relevant. It's Their Blind Sighted Ignorance That Concerns Me.

[ronnie624]

109. A draft would create a massive military,

prepared for deployment almost instantly - the last thing an imperialist power with a profoundly ignorant populace that worships violence needs. The need to build a military force before deploying it overseas, would provide time for cooler heads to prevail.

What the United States really needs to do, is decrease the size of its military, and divert the resources to areas that would improve our society instead of enriching war profiteers.

We'd better get on it. Time's a wastin'.

[Javaman]

140. Completely agree. nt

[mmonk]

118. A draft will kill off this madness faster than anything else.

The sheep will arise from their slumber.

[Evergreen Emerald]

127. BS. It did not work in the past...and frankly, the admin does not care about those sheep

They will not take my child.

[mmonk]

134. You are free to your opinion but it is an opinion as mine is.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE PRETTY MUCH IN LA LA LAND. Until it affects them in a way that hits home, they will go about their little non cognizant lives going to work and busying themselves as this craps keeps unfolding.

[Evergreen Emerald]

143. You are using the troops to further your agenda just as the admin is.

And just as the Congress is. I am tired of the BS.

[Megahurtz]

147. WELL SAID!!!

:applause:

[mmonk]

148. I have no agenda other than stopping the war

and ending the assault on the constitution. I have an extended family member in Iraq. I have two sons, one of draft age and one two years away. I want it to end now.

[Megahurtz]

146. You Wish.

Do you have any guarantees that this Administration will wake up to anything?
I say No Fucking Way!!!:argh:

Not on my Child's life!!!:mad:

[LWolf]

130. I oppose a draft.

I don't think that pointing out how "amusing" you find those who disagree with you is particularly conducive to constructive conversation, personally.

I guess that's not what this thread is for.

[Javaman]

142. I think perhaps the word amusing...

was more done in a sardonic way.

amusing as in ironic.

they are the ones that so easily call for a draft when they have nothing to lose.

[jpgray]

132. I'm of draftable age, and the idea has merits. Unfortunately, it's not practical

In our current system, there is no way to ensure compulsory service is distributed fairly, used responsibly, enforced equally--take your pick.

[Megahurtz]

144. OR they don't have any kids of Draft age.

Interesting......sounds like they should go Volunteer themselves to spare us. :sarcasm:

Awwww....Go Draft Yourself!