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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:21 PM
Original message
is the min wage increase having intended effect?
I was just pondering this question because I have talked to a couple of people who work in local resturants(and make min wage).

turns out as soon as the min wage increase took effect, hours were cut and mandatory 30 minute breaks(while clocked out) were instituted. With the loss of hours , is the min wage increase really helping these people?
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. so they are working less, but getting paid the same?
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 12:23 PM by jsamuel
they used to work 20 hours and get $100

now they work 16 hours and get $100
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. well
with the increase in min wage they are getting payed slightly more, but arent getting as many hours.
they were making 5.15 before the increase but working at the very least an a half hour to hour longer. so they are making the same total amount or less. like the increase never happened.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
81. Even if they get the same amount of money, but can work less...
I'd say that's nice benefit, don't you think?
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Exactly what im saying.
they work less but get payed the exact same as they did before.
they are FORCED to work less. hours are cut by the owner.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. You would like them to work more and get the same pay?
Since you dislike wage increases so much, why don't you ask for a pay cut and give back all increases to your wage base for the last eight years to be in solidarity with minimum wage earners.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. i never said i didnt like it
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 12:31 PM by iamthebandfanman
im just saying that they are ultimately being payed the exact same thing they were before, just working less.

people want to earn more money, not necessarily work less.
how does that increase their living making the same total amount but working less?

more time for another job?

btw, you shouldnt rush to assumptions.
obviously business owners are trying to save themselves from dishing out the extra money these people diserve by cutting hours.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. If one is going to make the exact same money
which case would you choose? More hours worked or less hours worked?

Why start the whole discussion out by saying Do you guys really think raising minimum wage was such a good idea?

If the wage was not increased the people cited in the article would be working longer hours and getting paid the exact same as they do now.

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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. i didnt say that
where did i say that ?

ur putting words into my mouth.

i said is it having the intended effect.

im just pointing out that employers are taking the asshole route and getting around the pay increase.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. You're looking at one group of people in one industry
and restaurant owners have always chiseled wait staff for every nickel and dime.

It's why we tip them.

The effect of a minimum wage increase typically takes weeks to months to be seen in terms of increased demand at all levels of the economy.

The money pump still works from the bottom up, even if some bosses are stingy and try to cut hours to save money. It just doesn't work like that, and eventually they'll have to increase those hours.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. well i certainly hope so
she barely gets by on what she makes and has little time to have another job (with school about to start again).
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
95. If there hours are getting cut back they probably very easily pick up another minimum wage job
Minimum wage jobs are pretty easy to come by these days.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. You mean that $5.85 pittance?
iamthebandmanfan, since the current minimum wage is still considerably below historical minimum wage adjusted for inflation, why would it hurt these people?
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. like i said
because they are working less and making the SAME TOTAL AMOUNT as they did at the lower hourly wage.

how does working less but making the same total amountt that you did BEFORE the increase help people ?
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Because they get more free time (n/t)
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. and how does that help them pay bills ? N/t
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Most minimum wage workers I've known are college students and high school students.
Most have parents for back up, or they live with their parents instead of being the primary income earner of the household. To be sure, they aren't all the minimum wage workers, but the statistics seem to indicate the minimum wage is most pertinent to younger people.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. well unfortunately
not all of us have daddy to pay for things.
she does not have backup(besides me and i barely make enough to support myself).

her dad doesnt care and her mom left when she was 11.
shes had to take out loanrs just to go to college.

obviously you have no clue what its like to be young and COMPLETELY on your own.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Uh, 20,000+ in student loans here, college student
I think I know what it's like to live a minimum wage existence. The only difference between myself and your friend being that I lived in a single-parent household, not a very happy one at that growing up. This isn't news to me, believe me, I get what you're saying, but if your friend wants a higher wage, she might well decide that student loans are a long-term investment to a higher paying job. To be completely alone, however, well, I've never experienced that beyond sleeping in my car for several nights. If I had my say in the matter, higher education should be subsidized by taxpayer dollars. Get the banking industry out of the schools.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. she does understand that fully
that is why she has chosen to take on that debt to further her education in hopes of a better job.
but i ask you this.
how does that help her now?
how does that pay her bills and her rent for the next 3 years?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. It doesn't, if all her employer does is pay her the same for fewer hours
She could ask for more hours, but realistically speaking, we're probably talking about searching for a job that pays better and an employer who isn't so stingy. I have an acquaintance who works at a buffet who is also in college. I didn't think it paid well, as it was a tip earning position that earns 2.50 an hour, but when she related to me that the tips on weeknights generally amount to 90 dollars a night and 130 to 150 dollars on Fridays and Saturdays, I was envious of that pay.

Unfortunately, not all jobs are like hers, and that's the rub. Mine aren't, and I still got a full year of college left. The only immediate solution I could tell you off the bat is to see if your friend qualifies for food stamps and public housing, if she's living alone. Social programs are neglected, but they're not yet gone.

I thank FDR and LBJ for the longevity of their social programs.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
70. hey
shes already on food stamps and living in a dump thats 300/month.

i think suggesting she ask for more hours is silly , seeing as that would have been the obvious thing to do ... and so obviously she has attempted that to no avail. like i say, the bossman wants to save money.

indeed thank god for FDK and LBJ tho. cant imagine where shed be if not.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
45. Just an FYI --according to 2006 CPS data, roughly one quarter were aged 16-19,
and roughly one half of all earners of minimum wage or less* were under age 25, which means of course that the other half were over age 25.

http://stats.bls.gov/cps/minwage2006.htm
Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2006

...Tables 1-10 present data on a wide array of demographic and socioeconomic characteristics for hourly-paid workers earning at or below the Federal minimum wage. The following are some highlights from the 2006 data.

* Minimum wage workers tend to be young. About half of workers earning $5.15 or less were under age 25, and about one-fourth of workers earning at or below the minimum wage were age 16-19.
(snip)


* Part-time workers (persons who usually work less than 35 hours per week) were more likely than their full-time counterparts to be paid $5.15 or less (about 6 percent versus 1 percent). (See table 1 and table 9.)


* By major occupational group, the highest proportion of workers earning at or below the Federal minimum wage was in service occupations, at about 7 percent. Nearly three in four workers earning $5.15 or less in 2006 were employed in service occupations, mostly in food preparation and service jobs.

(snip)

* The industry with the highest proportion of workers with reported hourly wages at or below $5.15 was leisure and hospitality (about 13 percent). About three-fifths of all workers paid at or below the Federal minimum wage were employed in this industry, primarily in the food services and drinking places component. For many of these workers, tips and commissions supplement the hourly wages received. ...


The report notes that the percent of minimum wage workers in states like California had lower proportions of workers making Federal minimum in large part because some states have their own higher minimum wage standard and in the case of California and some other states, wait staff are paid the same minimum wage as everyone else.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
61. I am not saying it does but your logic is flawed in even
asking that question.

You are asserting that a raise in minimum wage = helping people pay bills. There are many factors involved in helping people be able to have a better wage. Some will do better some could do worse but in the long term it does help (IMHO).

So yes you can have one friend who now has less hours this week because of a wage increase. Maybe because more people are making more money the restaurant will get busier with more customers and next week they will get more hours. To somehow take a micro example like that then take it out on this discussion board is wasting your time and ours. If you view is really that narrow on the subject it is not somehow our responsibility to fix it for you. Fix it yourself.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #61
72. i hope thats true
about better business equaling better hours.
but i think your find that most wealthy people are wealthy for a reason. because they are cheap bastards who pinch and save and every corner. no different with the owner of this business. i highly doubt better business will balance it out, but lets hope so
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. The Federal Minimum Wage increase had no effect in many states.
All the states indicated in green had/have state minimum wages higher than the federal minimums. For people who have to work FEWER HOURS for the SAME PAY ... I'd say it's a benefit. Wouldn't you?



http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm

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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. i live in kentucky
tell me how working less but making the same in total helps ?
more time for another job ?

theya re being FORCED to work less so that the owner doesnt have to pay them more for hours they used to work.


for example,
my friend worked 11 to 4 everyday.
she made 5.15 an hour.
she now works 11-3 at 5.85.
not by choice, by the owners decision.
5.15 x 5 hours = 25.75
5.85 x 4 hours = 23.40

so you can see, she is actually making LESS now because the owner didnt want to pay her that extra 70 cents for another hour of work.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. "... FORCED to work less ..."
I find it fascinating that you've repeated this phrase several times in this thread ... as though the 'work' and not the 'pay' is the objective of a worker.

No matter how many times the minimum wage has been increased in the last 70 years, at both the state and federal levels, the cheap labor advocates have yet to offer ANY objective (scientific/statistical) analysis that substantiates the doom and gloom scenario of 'more unemployment.' Not at all. Instead, the better economic well-being of states with the highest minimum wages is inarguable. In the months after increases, employment has far more often INCREASED than decreased ... yet the cheap labor advocates repeat the same, tired, baseless claims over and over again. It's ALWAYS "a friend" or some other anecdotal story ... and is never reliably substantiated in any broader statistical measure. Never.

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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. i am only telling you
HOW IT IS where i am.

this isnt some scenerio ive made up.

it is infact a real one with a real person involved.
if you choice to block that out then fine.
turn ur back on whats happening.
it probably effects you none anyway.

but its happening.
like it or not.
its not theoretical WHEN I HEAR HER COMPLAIN EVERYDAY.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. I don't buy it.
I regard the rhetoric used as specious and propagandistic - portraying a worker's labor as a benefit to the worker rather than the employer. That's just complete rhetorical nonsense.

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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #40
69. well thats fine
nobody said you had to believe the truth.

i dont even know how id go about proving it to you?
pictures of the girl working away maybe?
even then youd attempt to discredit that ?


its true though. believe what you want.

i havent read some of the later things in this post because im assuming alot of people have attacked me on groundless and baseless aquisations... and thats fine i guess.

but you should know im about as liberal as they come.
voted for howard dean last primary and even for kerry(because hey, any democrat was better than dumbshit).
ill be doing the same again this year. any dem will do ya.

but hey, its whatever.
if it makes you feel better believing im some right wing whacko then knock yourself out, lol


like i say, this is what i get for raising a serious question and wanting some serious response.

i think the wage increase was long over due. but given the current economic climate(shitty) employers are finding bastard ways to get around it. thats all i was trying to point out to people. so whatever ;)
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #69
84. Methinks you protesteth too much. Why do YOU identify yourself with the STORY
... you were supposedly(!) told by "your friend"? When others here on DU say we don't buy the story, you take it PERSONALLY. Why is that? Hmmm??

You equate the 'story' (you claim to have been told by a 'friend') with the Truth (with trumpets blaring and the skies clearing)... and then whimper in glorious and stolid victim-hood when others express their doubts and explain why. Why is that? Why do you take that personally?

Hmmm???

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

Something stinks and it ain't fish.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
53. Tell her to PICKET and stand up for her damn self
and you stop spreading bullshit that enables employers to continue paying slave wages.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #53
74. picket a ponderosa ?
i think that would equal no more job.
not like theres a union.
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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. At 1 hour/day, not much IMO.
That's really all it works out to. Ironically, if they lose 1 hr/day that works out to a $1.25/ week pay cut! Somehow I don't think that's what congress had in mind.

The idea was to increase their income not shorten the workday. What are they going to to with the hour, especially if it's broken into 1/2 hour added to lunch and 2 15 minute breaks so you keep the same start and end time? The employer doesn't suffer, you just stagger the breaks so that everyone else works a bit harder to pick up the slack. Workers produce the same amount of labor in a shorter period of time so essentialy they end up working harder for slightly less pay. I would think they'd rather have the extra 28 bucks, so I can see the OP's point. Don't see that anything can be done about it, but I can see his point.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
36. It's nonsense.
First off, if the workplace is a restaurant then "working harder" but fewer hours cannot, in any way, be used as a technique to meet customer demand and optimize profits. Since employers are required to supplement a sub-minimum wage plus tips in order to meet minimum wage levels, there's a hard limit on how sub-par the service can go before it bites the management in the ass through both loss of business and wage supplementation. Thus, I have more than little bit of skepticism regarding the veractiy of this anecdote ... since it doesn't correlate to reality.

Some would have us believe that some generous and benevolent employer had people paid for hours during which they did nothing ... until the minimum wage was increased and they had to stop this charitable gesture. I regard that as bullshit.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Thank-you Tahiti
...and regular minimum wage rules do not apply to waitpersons...
Lee
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Well ... "tipped employees." (That incudes people other than servers.)
Even here in Michigan, the vast majority of "tipped employees" are paid more than the minimum wage.

(I don't buy this story for even a nanosecond.)

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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. I was talking about the retail industry
Where I've seen these tactics used, although there are jobs in the restaraunt industry where it would work as well. Not every job has a direct bearing on service, and in poor neighborhoods especially, service isn't all that high on the list of customer priorites.

Companies big and small have a known history of manipulating workers hours to get around regulations and squeeze the most blood from their employees for the least pay. If they see another way to exploit workers rest assured they'll do it.

There seems to be a perception that the argument here is in opposition to raising the minimum wage. I haven't seen anyone on this thread make such an argument. The only thing I've seen is pointing out of unscrupulous business practices, and wondering what can be done to combat them so that workers actually get the money they're entitled to.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
14. I am REALLY suspicious of this post
What a backasswards way to attack the American worker. Of course WE deserve better wages. Your example represents nothing.
Lee
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. oh please
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 12:48 PM by iamthebandfanman
you obviously read nothing else in this topic.

i suggest you do so.

leave it to people on here to attack me instead of READING WHATS BEEN SAID.


my bad for thinking i could have rational discussion with people who automatically assume they are being attacked.

dont worry, i wont bring up anything again.

god forbid we have a converation about something.

and im glad MY FRIEND IS NOTHING to you.
that "example" IS HER LIFE.
so think about that before you marginalize her and the thousands of other resturant workers in my state.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Well how about this then. You made it up

http://www.dol.gov/wb/faq26.htm

Question: Is it legal for waiters and waitresses to be paid below the minimum wage?

Answer: An employer may credit a portion of a tipped employee's tips against the federal minimum wage of $5.85 per hour effective July 24, 2007. An employer must pay at least $2.13 per hour. However, if an employee's tips combined with the employer's wage of $2.13 per hour do not equal the hourly minimum wage, the employer is required to make up the difference.

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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. He actually has a point
Look at my example in 17. It's not that they shouldn't have their wages increased it's that they shouldn't have their hours cut. And don't think for a minute that unscrupulous employers, especially in the retail industry won't take this approach. He's not attacking workers he's attacking employers who are screwing workers.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. thank you
thats all ive been trying to say.

employers are being assholes and trying to save money. i think its horrible.
i think the wage increase IS LONG OVERDUE but how is it effective if these cheap bastards just cut their hours to compensate?

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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
19. a wage increase isn't going to get in the way...
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 12:52 PM by rucky
of an employer's race to the bottom.

I like what the UAW is doing right now in their negotiations with Ford - basically showing the company the value of their workforce and the ROI they're getting from it. Comparing it to other cost-cutting measures they haven't considered (that don't involve outsourcing, benefits cuts & layoffs), and coming up with a strategic plan to manage production that includes fair wages in it.

Ford can't really say that what they've been doing has been working out for them. And the inevitable conclusion will be that fair wages are good business. And they are. Once businesses start cutting corners on payroll, everything else suffers with it. I don't know how many times businesses have to experience this before they realize what they need to do.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
22. Different laws for waiters and waitresses

http://www.dol.gov/wb/faq26.htm

Question: Is it legal for waiters and waitresses to be paid below the minimum wage?

Answer: An employer may credit a portion of a tipped employee's tips against the federal minimum wage of $5.85 per hour effective July 24, 2007. An employer must pay at least $2.13 per hour. However, if an employee's tips combined with the employer's wage of $2.13 per hour do not equal the hourly minimum wage, the employer is required to make up the difference.


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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. another assumption
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 12:54 PM by iamthebandfanman
shes not a waitress.

you know there are other jobs at a resturant. not just the people who bring you the food.

so go on, keep trying to attack me and peg me as some wacko.

truth hurts and im telling it how it is FOR HER and the others who work at that establishment.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. Name the establishment....n/t
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
78. Ponderosa Steak House n/t
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SecularMotion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
26. This is ridiculous
If the owner cuts an employee's hours, he either has to hire another employee to cover the time or his business is down or he was overstaffed to begin with. It is not the fault of the minimum wage increase! It is more expensive to hire and train a new employee, than a marginal increase in the pay of an existing employee.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. actually
these cuts are to hours of the day when business is usually at its slowest.
another employee just picks up the slack.

in this instance its the manager(who is payed salary).

as someone who used to work in a resturant that was ALWAYS under staffed i know its very easy to run one that way. it was horrible on us the workers but hey, whatever it took to save the boss man some money.
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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. See post 17
Hours get cut, no new employees, existing employees work harder to produce the same amount in less time for less money. If I can do this math then prick employers in the retail industry can too.
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SecularMotion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. And the end result of that
is a degradation in the level of service from over-worked employees and eventual loss of business. Not a smart move for a business owner. I'm not saying there are not dumb business owners out there, but they don't tend to last long.
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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. I agree. Not a smart move
however, many businesses in poor urban areas don't put a very high premium on service. These are the workers most vulnerable to explotiation, and the ones that suffer the most. Look at the way Wal-Mart manipulated employee hours to get around benefit regulations. I know of which I speak because I come from just such a neighborhood and watched freinds and family get fucked over time and again. Worse in that they had to suffer the indiginty of patronizing the very places that were fucking them. Poor people don't have a whole lot of options, boycotts are for people that can afford them.

I don't know what can be done to properly regulate businesses, but the first step is acknowledging that there are unscrupulous bastards out there. What strike me as odd is that the employers seem to getting defened here, not by you, but on this trhead.


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SecularMotion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Unscrupulous employers will exploit employees
regardless of an increase in the minimum wage.
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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. Again I agree
but that doesn't mean people shouldn't point it out when it happens. The OP just tried to point out a case of this and he's been flamed and had his statements mis-characterized all over the thread.

If we see a situation that opens people up to exploitation shouldn't we bring it up and talk about it?

The thing is nobody said the increase was bad, or that it shouldn't have happened. Nobody said the increase ccaused the exploitation.

It was just someone pointing out how an employer took the opportunity to circumvent the spirit & intention of the law (increasing total wages) and people knee jerked and took it the wrong way.

Nobody is arguing "We shouldn't raise the minimum wage because shit like this will happen."

We're arguing "We should raise the minimum wage AND make sure shit like this doesn't happen. So how can we do that?"
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SecularMotion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. The OP does imply that the exploitation is a result of the increase
and questions if an increase in the minimum wage is a good thing.

I agree cases of employee exploitation should always be exposed and talked about, but to draw a direct cause and effect between the minimum wage increase and exploitation just muddies the waters. I suspect that is the purpose of too many posters here.
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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. I can see where it could be taken that way
Peace. :)
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SecularMotion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Thanks
Have a good evening

:hi:
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #60
77. i guess my question was more
whats the point of a wage increase if employers ARE going to do such things and like the other poster said what can and should be done to prevent this?

the economy is shitty and employers know that and they are pinching and saving any way they can with the workers be damned. i think its a horrible crime and a shame. i was only trying to point out that exploitation, thats all.
sorry if the title of my OP was misleading.
it did however bring interest to the thread which im happy about... tho i wish people wouldnt have attacked me and changed my words around to suite whatever agenda they have.

like the poster pointed out, i never said the wage increase was bad. its long overdue. infact its so long over due i think maybe thats one of the reasons its being exploited now.
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SecularMotion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #77
97. The point of a minimum wage increase
is to help people that work for the minimum wage or close to it, to better meet their basic needs. You didn't say the wage increase was bad, but you used an example of an unscrupulous employer to question the need of a wage increase. As the poster and I came to agreement on, an employer who is unscrupulous will be so regardless of a minimum wage increase.

To imply that all employers will be unscrupulous as a result of a minimum wage increase is unrealistic and ridiculous.
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OpenSpace Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. I never understood this.
What part of the country are people making minimum wage? I worked in restaurants though college in PA and NJ. I dont know of any employee that makes minimum wage. I know the dish washers were starting at $10.00 per hour. I think the minimum wage should be $25.00 per hour. The current minimum wage debate is BS because there is almost no one in the North East that makes minimum wage. Anyone who shows up to work can easily make at least $10.00 per hour with no skills or training required. When we get some balls and raise the minimum wage above $25.00 than we will really see how this benefits the economy.

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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
35. I think you're confusing causation and correlation
The economy is tanking, especially in retail and restaurants. The company I work PT for is cutting hours too, yet since I live in CT, where the state minimum wage is higher than the national minimum, they are not being effected by this bill.

I believe you are seeing the effects not of a minimum wage increase, but of an economy that is slipping away faster than anyone is willing to admit.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
41. NAME THE ESTABLISHMENT...n/t
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
43. What is the name of this establishment? n/t
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
47. Well, considering food prices have gone up along with everything else, no
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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
48. DO NOT NAME THE ESTABLISHMENT
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 02:19 PM by eggman67
Do not post anything even remotely personally identifiable online. People have been fired for things posted here. There are other sites that take great joy in figuring these things out and then notifying employers.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Don't stand up to employers??
Let them fuck over their employees and just never say a word about it? Is that seriously what you're saying?
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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. No, I'm say don't be goaded into revealing
personally identifiable information online. Do you recall the DJ that got fired for something he posted here? In this case it wouldn't even be his own job he'd be jeopardizing. He's just being goaded to "prove" his story's true. He doesn't owe that to anyone people can believe him or not it's their choice but he doesn't owe them anything.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. The restaurant should be exposed
It's not his job. Nobody will ever know who the supposed 'friend' is. Why shouldn't we stand up for workers who are being cheated?
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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Christ that's all I've been doing on this thread!
How do you know his friend won't be exposed? I don't think it's right to take that risk. Posting the name of the establishment here benefits no one and risks a job he has no right to risk.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. You're enabling the abuser
Don't rock the boat. Don't make the boss mad. Be vewwy vewwy afraid.

How is that helping anybody?

If he's using that pittance of a wage increase to make life miserable for employees who are near poverty as it is - then his customers have the right to know and choose accordingly.

If we don't start standing up, nothing will ever change. Do these workers even know that there are states where the minimum wage is $7.80 hr and nobody has gone out of business??
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. RIGHT ON!!...n/t
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #48
62. We mention specific stores all the time
Some employee at some restaurant somewhere in the whole USA...

Please.

So, you think every stupid IHOP, (just an example), has someone monitoring DU and then hiring a special Private Eye to TRY to hack the system to figure out who the OP is and then put bamboo under her fingernails to force her to point out where the specific IHOP is and which employee bitched. Okey...tinfoil hat time...

I am fairly sure the OP made up the entire hypothetical situation. That is presumptuous and probably unfair of me but it is what I think and I'm not the only one who thinks this.

Lee
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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. No not every IHOP
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 04:55 PM by eggman67
That's absurd. Was every radio station monitoring DU to catch that one guy?

We all know there is a specific site that monitors this board looking for personally identifiable information. Which they have in the past used to hurt people. That's not speculation we KNOW it. We've actually seen it - more than once. To pretend there isn't such a site is just disingenuous.

From the sound of it he's talking about a local restaraunt not necessarily a chain. Potentially very identifiable to some nutball living in the area. We already know his freind is a female cooleg student and not a member of the waitstaff. In a small enough establishment that alone can be enough. I do not belive in taking that risk, I will never advise giving out personally identifiable information over an internet message board.

We don't mention places in this context and you know it. Please show me an instance where someone identified who their or their friend's specific employer is in a negative sense. Even then it'll have to be quite a few links to be "all the time"

You're really just trying to get him to prove himself. You and anyone else is perfectly entitled not to believe him, but he doesn't owe you anything.

Edited to add: I just remembered, didn't you recently post your personal email address here about two weeks ago and then come to regret it thanks to exactly the jackasses I'm talking about?
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Tinfoil hat time...
...and it's not someone here saying it about themselves. This SPY would have third and fourth party info.

Plus, why would the employer object? The supposed employee seemed more pissed about minimum wage than they are at their boss...something else illogical.
Lee
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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. Sweet christ
I just remembered, didn't you recently post your personal email address here about two weeks ago and then come to regret it thanks to exactly the jackasses I'm talking about? Oh and BTW it's still posted at that site.

What third and fourth party? If I said a college kid at the XXX health club was pissing on about his boss. Anybody who looks at my profile and lives in my area could find out exactly who I meant with ease. Y'know why? There is only one XXX health club in my town and only one college kid working there. I guess the DUers who have lost jobs over what they posted here should have had their tin-foil on.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
82. do you always just make stuff up like that?
where do you get that the employee seems more pissed about the minimum wage? first off if ur saying i do seem pissed off about it (which is wrong and unfounded) IM NOT THE EMPLOYEE! and believe me, she is pissed at the boss. there are just little to no actions that can be taken short of quiting ... which isnt really an option.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
80. bah i dont mind to tell
im not personally employed there (tho i was a few years ago at 5.15 an hour washing dishes) and i highly doubt many people from my small town even know about DU (besides the bumper sticker on my car, lol)
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
50. I wouldn't put it past some employers to pull this
The mimimum wage goes up a little and they still try to get away with essentially paying them the same weekly pay they were getting by cutting hours. Sucks because that cuts their tips too. Amazing.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. Stuff like that happens all the time.. We got a new Target in our town
and the "formerly-new" Target is now a shadow of its former self, staff-wise. Last weekend we walked right up to a check out and did not have to wait in line.. I asked what was going on, and the young woman who checked us out said "The new store"..then she said.."and our hours have been cut to the bone"..

Businesses cannibalize their workforces all the time..

Restaurants around here keep raising their prices & cutting their staffs :eyes:.. I know that costs go up, but I just wish they would cut down on the QUANTITY of food served , and keep the prices lower and the place staffed..
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
67. Why I Think The OP Is Made Up
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 05:02 PM by Madspirit
First, it's far too general. Even if they didn't want to mention a name, they would have said they were talking to a waitress/waiter or they were talking to the dishwasher or.. They claim they spoke to employees in more than one restaurant. What? They just decided to go eat out at a bunch of nameless restaurants and talk to a "couple" of nameless people, in nameless positions? Sorry. Psychologically speaking, it's obviously just someone's..."s'pose I did this, here's what happened." People almost always talk TOO much, not too little. It was way too generic and general to be about something that really happened.

...AND the OP claims to be pondering and wanting opinions when in reality, they are pushing a position.

...and they disappeared as soon as we asked for them to name the restaurant.

...and at first they are claiming they spoke to more than one person and suddenly it's a specific girl.

...and it's a flagrantly anti-labor post.

I could be wrong. I don't think I am, thus my saying it....

Lee

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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. I agree with you. eom
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
71. Your OP is not the case for my teenagers, or their many friends.
Take a bigger sample, you may see a different picture emerge.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. i suppose
but perhaps it is also a regional.

its not like she is the only one suffering at the resturant. nor is it the only resturant in my town that has taken that action(tho not all have of course). only privately owned ones seem to be the ones who have taken such a rash course.
the big chains have not
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
79. TO THOSE WHO WANT THE NAME OF THE BUSINESS
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 05:17 PM by iamthebandfanman
its Ponderosa Steak House.


those who suggest standing up are only dooming her to being jobless in a town with few jobs. trust me.

EDIT: i see people want me to be very specific so here goes

Shes a hostess/cashier


And just how exactly am i "anti-labor" when im pointing out that an employer is blatently bypassing the wage increase? oh yeah shame on me for exposing the sad truth of some greedy bastards who run businesses. gee whiz

as far as the accusation that i left when u started asking more questions... yeah its called having a life... i have a dying grandmother and a mother who is about to have reconstructive surgery on her back so my plates kinda to full at the moment to worry about a forum. sorry sherlock, maybe you should leave the investigating up to people who dont instantly judge people.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. Ponderosa is not a "big chain" to you?
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 05:21 PM by FLDem5
"only privately owned ones seem to be the ones who have taken such a rash course.
the big chains have not"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. silly
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 05:43 PM by iamthebandfanman
its called FRANCHISING

most franchised business HAVE LITTE CONTACT with the people whos NAME they bare.

and trust me, thats the only assosociation they have with ponderosa. they pay for the name and the menu. thats all. Ponderosa the corporation has NO SAY in pay or hours at the store.
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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. Dude, they'll never be satisfied
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 05:47 PM by eggman67
They passed their judgement immediately, and now it'll just be perpetual self justification. Save yourself the trouble.

I'll admit your OP was a bit unclear, but you clarified it as far as I'm concerned. They've got it into their head that you're anti-minimum wage and now it's just "lalalalala i can't hear you lalalalala"
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. lol yeah , youd think i wouldnt even bother
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 05:54 PM by iamthebandfanman
but i had a bit more faith in people here to see my over all point.

i guess thats my fault as well.

lesson learned ;)

p.s.

no more posting from me in this thread... so flame away ! cause im done defending myself and what i know to be true. dont want to believe me ? fine. maybe if we ignore the truth itll just go away.

denial aint just a river in egypt after all

oh, and thanks for seeing what i was getting at and taking the words they were trying to shove in back out of my mouth. this whole flame party will constitute me not coming to DU for a while.

so i better get it out now!


KUCINICH '08!@#
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. The one in Benton??
Owned by Ron Spanton and Bob Ridley?
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. i just found out there was a benton, ky
so no. lol.

and i wont give the city name either so that she wont get punished for the things i say on here. she doesnt even know i came here to vent about it.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. lolololol
So you give HER job which nobody even asked for, and the name of a chain that can't be localized, but continue to be vague when pressed to offer up something that could be a catalyst for change.

Your Kentucky ancestors would be ashamed. There would never have been any mineworkers unions with the kind of bravery you're showing.

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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. yup, just keep attacking me!
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 06:14 PM by iamthebandfanman
and ill just keep laughing at you. you are really going out on a limb now , arent ya ?
trying to attack my heritage ? sheesh!
of course i wont out her job location. im not her. i was just trying to bring attention to something that was occuring because if its happening here, it must be happening other places.

like i said, screw me for attempting to bring attention to the matter. thatll teach me to point out wrong doing.
it just makes me a liar, standing in the way of change, and apparently shameful to a whole line of peoples. lol. 'youre either with us or against us!' .. where have i heard that before ?

a coward would have said nothing at all.
i think i did the right thing.

have a good day , and please, dont post things directly to me any more as i wont be answering. ive said all i need to say. do what you need to do to make yourself feel better and give yourself a big pat on the back ;)
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #90
96. Gee...first you said a couple of people
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 08:08 PM by Madspirit
...and you said restaurantS...plural. Now it's just this one girl at a Ponderosa. Hmmm

Lee
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
89. Pure retaliation and for show. They still have to have enough servers
to serve their customers or they will go out of business.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. you didnt read
not a server.

please read before commenting.
i know theres alot here , but please..
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 06:01 PM
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