My God! Look at this! This bridge should have been

[Blue_Roses]

replaced a long time ago. A forty-year-old bridge was not designed to withstand the load of traffic that bridges carry now. We're talking 1967--now how many of you remember the cars in 1967? The traffic flow has probably tripled since then, if not more.

The only standing areas are the concrete pilings.









http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20089341/

[KitchenWitch]

1. There were times when I was on that bridge that I could feel it sway

It never felt safe to me.

[Blue_Roses]

2. I felt that way about a bridge going into Baton Rouge,LA

and one in Shreveport, LA. Gave me the creeps. I held my breath every time I crossed over it.

[nascar55]

5. Old bridge or the I10 bridge in Baton Rouge?

Old Hwy 190 bridge dates back to Huey Longs time.....The new bridge as we call it (I10) dates back to the late 60's if my memory is right. I remeber the sunshine bridge south of Baton Rouge, now that one was creepey...it dates back to the 50s.............

[Blue_Roses]

10. Hwy 190 bridge...

creepy...

[Blue_Roses]

22. this one

[nascar55]

33. Yep

It has been there for years. When cars were much smaller

[awoke_in_2003]

65. I hate to be picky

but cars back then tended to be bigger, and used much more steel in their construction. But, lighter cars have been offset by increased traffic.

[Blue_Roses]

67. kind of like these:

[awoke_in_2003]

83. Yes

exactly like those (both ways, more metal/less plastic, and lighter traffic load)

[Contrary1]

87. They might have been bigger,

but I don't think they weighed as much. I did some checking.

In comparing, I did try to find models that I estimated to be roughly the same size.

1967 Malibu - 2,998 lbs. / 2005 Lesabre - 3,300 lbs
1967 Firebird - 3,247 lbs. / 2006 GTO - 3,725 lbs.
1967 VW Beetle - 1,698 lbs. / 2007 VW Beetle - 3,153 lbs.

Must be all the safety features. Anyway, here's the link. I was really surprised at what I found.

http://www.conceptcarz.com/

[MADem]

28. The old Cooper River Bridge in S. Carolina was a real white knuckle ride, too... NT

[KoKo]

59. Tell me about it....That was one scary MTF!

:scared: Can't believe I drove with friends over that bridge who'd had a few. I'm lucky to be alive today!

[KoKo]

60. AND...that Annapolis Bridge From Maryland to DC....Can't get over it...have to ride

around the thing.....way out of the way.

[MiniMe]

68. They actually have people that will drive your car across for you

Its a long way around!

[MADem]

86. I went across it during a hurricane once! nt

[Left Is Write]

49. The scariest bridge to me was the Old Cedar Avenue Bridge.

I was convinced that thing was going to go at any time.

[KitchenWitch]

52. That was another very scary bridge

And for a LOOOOONG time, it was the only way across the Minnesota River.

[Left Is Write]

53. Yes, and before there was adequate shopping south of the river, we

had to go into Bloomington to do back-to-school shopping. There was a Target there, and also in those days, Southtown Mall.

[KitchenWitch]

54. I remember Southtown Mall

I loved the movie theatre that used to be there.

[Left Is Write]

57. 'Tis where I saw Return Of The Jedi.

:)

[sce56]

74. The one I used to hate going over was the TEMP overpass on the I680 in Walnut Creek

The SF Bay area. It was made to span the construction making a new interchange between the I680 and CA24 in the mid 90's. That was a high and scary overpass I hated driving it in Earthquake country and it was a relife to know it was only a TEMPORARY overpass :sarcasm:

[JVS]

3. A bridge of good quality should be able to last more than 40 years if properly maintained

I would also imagine that the specs of a bridge would be at such a level that the amount of traffic would make no difference in its ability to stand, maybe increase the frequency of maintenance, but not cause the bridge to collapse directly.

[Blue_Roses]

4. "properly maintained"...

is the key words...which obviously didn't happen.

[JVS]

6. Yeah, but maintain and replace are different things. It looks like they haven't maintained an now..

must replace.

[Deja Q]

8. Exactly. If it was maintained, we wouldn't need Bush's emergency funds to replace.

Pawlenty (or at the very least the DoT people he's put to run the place) screwed up on this and people have said he's been looking rather sullen lately.

Oh well. At least we'll get a new stadium. :crazy:

[JVS]

11. But didn't Jesse "the mind" Ventura cut you guys a tax break?

[FogerRox]

39. Golden Gate completed 1937, G. Washington 1931.

[kineneb]

77. but the GG gets lots of maintainence

and lots of orange paint...
it was built when many people still remembered the 1906 earthquake...

and I am sure some of our other bridges need repairs... there is a small concrete bridge near our house that has "1933" on the side... in many places, the last time there was any infrastructure work done was in the 1930s by the WPA...

ed because I am typing with one hand while I am holding my pet chicken in my lap...

[truedelphi]

85. Golden Gate Bridge is on eof the ngineering marvels of the civilized world

Supposedly built so even if bumper to bumper traffic of cars and trucks were double layered piggy back style, it still would not fall.

[bleedingheart]

7. you haven't seen old bridges...check this out...

<>

"The historic Smithfield Street bridge, built in 1881 by engineer Gustav Lindenthal, is probably the oldest extant steel truss in the United States, and has been designated a National Historic Civil Engineering Landmark. The Smithfield Street Bridge is considered by many to be the prettiest bridge in Pittsburgh and is still used by thousands of cars and pedestrians each day."


<>

"Bridges spanning the Monongahela River from Station Square and the South Side to downtown Pittsburgh, include the historic Smithfield Street Bridge (1881), the Panhandle RR Bridge (1903), the Liberty Bridge (1928), the South 10th Street Bridge (1921), the Birmingham Bridge (1977) and, near the horizon, the twin black spans of the Hot Metal Bridge (1877) and Mon Con RR Bridge (1877)."

and these are the bridges that span only one of the three rivers in Pittsburgh....and this isn't all of them by a long shot...

[JVS]

9. ROCK!

[bleedingheart]

12. and I estimate tens of thousands of commuters cross those bridges daily

now some are in better shape than others and they are closely watched...but...we have to be careful.

[JVS]

17. I am rather displeased with the handling of the Greenfield bridge over the Parkway East

What the hell kind of fix was this? Putting up a new lower bridge to catch pieces of the old!

[bleedingheart]

18. that and the big ole hairnet ...the one that let a piece of concrete fall

and that poor woman nearly died...her face is probably a mess after that disaster...

So after that happens they build a bridge under it to catch debris....

Every time I drive under it I cross myself...

[JVS]

19. One would think that the money spent on the bridge to and from nowhere under it would...

nearly be enough to fix the bridge in the first place. Also, is the plan to get rid of the old one and re-work the roads to go down to the level of the new one? That will suck!

[bleedingheart]

20. You know...fixing the bridge and having it out of service for a year

wouldn't have been all that bad....people adapt...

But...if they think...they can route traffic to that lower span...that is just idiotic...I can't imagine how they would do that without...but then I have seen weirder things done...

At least it isn't like the old rail road bridge near my mom's house...one of my friends was walkin along and his one leg fell through the rotten wood...luckily he got out...
can you imagine this...they just repaired the rotten wood in just that section....only after some other incident occurred and some people threatend to sue the railroad...did they fix it with a brand new bridge.

[Occulus]

71. That "lower span" looks to be a good bit further into the distance than the bridge with the hairnet

NT

[karlrschneider]

96. I thought that too but apparently it isn't...found something

http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A28998

Been looking on Google Earth but not sure where it is...

[kestrel91316]

25. What is that? Plastic wrap being used to hold it together, or what??

[JVS]

30. nets to catch falling concrete, and then a new bridge under it to catch concrete

[bleedingheart]

14. to be fair to the sister river the Allegheny..

<>

"The bridges which cross the Allegheny river near downtown Pittsburgh and the Point include the Ft. Duquesne Bridge (1969), the identical Sixth (1928), Seventh (1926), and Ninth Street Bridges (1928), the Fort Wayne Railroad Bridge (1904), the Veteran's Bridge (1987), and the Sixteenth Street Bridge (1923). The Ft. Duquesne Bridge, nearly the twin of the Ft. Pitt Bridge on the opposite side of Point State Park, is also known as "the bridge to nowhere" due to delays in construction which left the northern end of the span hanging in midair for many years. One famous story involves a University of Pittsburgh student who, on December 12, 1964, drove her station wagon off the end of the bridge and landed unhurt on the other side."

[bleedingheart]

16. and the river they create...The Ohio...

<>

"Looking down the Ohio river from downtown Pittsburgh (just to the right of this picture), the bridges include the West End Bridge (1932), the Ohio Connecting Railroad Bridge (1915 - crossing the Ohio on both sides of Brunot Island), and, off in the distance, the McKees Rocks Bridge (1931)."

[Psyop Samurai]

64. Oh, that Smithfield Bridge shakes like the dickens...

...I remember times walking across it, looking down through the holes in the concrete. :scared: I just figured, "well they must know what they're doing..., it must be safe."

I remember a flood in the early 80's when a WHOLE BUNCH of barges upstream came loose from their moorings and came crashing into the bridges! I was at the Smithfield bridge when they were crashing into it. They had every bridge in that picture (and then some) blocked off - it was very dramatic.

More recently, I recall our march across that bridge upon the Junta's invasion of Iraq.

[Occulus]

70. That's amazing

And a true testament to human engineering.

The collapse we're all talking about is a testament to the failure of the system, not the engineering. Properly maintained, the bridge that collapsed should never have done so.

[Catherine Vincent]

13. There's a bridge in Lake Charles, Louisiana that scares me everytime I look at it.

Before I have to cross it, I say a little prayer because you see it a half a mile before you approach it, it's very high up there. So dang scary. I'll try and find a pic.

edited: Here are a couple:





And of course there's the Houston Ship Channel bridge:

[Gruenemann]

32. Both probably partially dissolved by air pollution. n/t

[On the Road]

15. Actually, I Suspect It Would Carry Less Weight at the Peak

Since there were rush hours in 1967 and vehicles have become a lot lighter since then.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. But believe me, the traffic load is MUCH worse, due to explosive

growth of the suburbs since 1967.

Place that were little country towns in 1967 are now solid strip malls and housing tracts, and I-35W is one of the principal routes to the northern suburbs.

[Blue_Roses]

23. but people didn't have the number of cars that they do now

besides,it's not just cars that cross over those bridges

[JVS]

24. There is no way in hell that they would allow a bridge to be built...

for an interstate that can actually have the kind of quantity of cars on it that would cause a collapse. I'd wager that you can stack hummers 3 high over every foot of an interstate bridge without causing a collapse. These roads were built for moving tanks and stuff. No autos should be able to bring it down

[Blue_Roses]

26. on a "properly maintained" bridge, true, quantity

wouldn't matter, however, considering the age of the bridge, wear-n-tear, a bridge that wasn't maintained wouldn't withstand the "quantity" of slug-bugs, much less a "stack of hummers 3 high"...

why the fuck are you badgering me...

bottom line: the bridge was old and should have been properly maintained, whether that meant with "bandaides" or total replacement

[JVS]

29. because the whole we drive over it more idea is fallacious. It was just bad maintenence

Either that or gremlins ;-)

[Blue_Roses]

34. you know, you remind me of my

spouse...he does the same thing. He takes one word and mutilates it until I say "what the fuck ever"...and then before you know it, my passionately written or spoken thought--that actually was making a valid point--has become nothing more than a frustrated conglomerate of profane words.

One day I'll learn...

[JVS]

36. Is that YOU?

;-)

[Blue_Roses]

38. I'm mad...

don't make me laugh...

[Occulus]

73. I'm thinking this is something we could measure

Weight on a bridge over time. Perhaps this is something we could measure to see if it could be a problem for older bridges?

I'm just sayin'.

[Blue_Roses]

69. I don't think cars like this were anywhere close to bringing down

a bridge

[Bozita]

81. I've seen roadways sag as superheavy rigs hauled 12' concrete sewer pipe

I worked down the road from a facility the made those sewer pipes. When they trucked them out, it was a lesson in the plasticity of both concrete and asphalt.

[FogerRox]

40. More trucks that weigh more, so no.

[JuniperLea]

27. Shoot... here in Los Angeles...

We have bridges built in 1928!!! And we are in earthquake country!

[MrScorpio]

35. But I bet that they were built to last nt

[JuniperLea]

37. Well, they are still standing...

but you can see cracked concrete and rusty rebar all over the city. I drive a 22 mile stretch of "old" Los Angeles every day... scary as hell.

[kwassa]

61. shall we talk overpasses?

Specifically, I-10 at Fairfax, which fell down in the Northridge quake in 1994. I tried to get on there the next morning, it just didn't work.

After the quake, all the overpasses were a couple inches higher than the roadbed leading up to them.

[JuniperLea]

98. I crossed the old, old bridge...

At Cesar Chavez and Mission this morning... I'm betting that bridge was built in the 20s... if you drive over and keep your eye on the beautiful old concrete railing, you see some pretty heavy duty whoop-ty doing!

And there are many small bridges and overpasses throughout the city that are missing chunks of concrete, and have exposed rusty rebar.

Many freeways have discrepancies in elevation such as you noted... try hitting any number of those at about 65mph and hold on tight~!

[FogerRox]

41. Golden Gate 1937

[JuniperLea]

99. Indeed...

But every time I've crossed that bridge, I've seen people working on it. I heard, and I don't know if this is urban legend or what, but I heard that they start at one end of the bridge and by the time they work their way to the other, it's time to start at the beginning again.

I watched the Vincent Thomas bridge being constructed in Long Beach, CA, when I was a kid. Completed in 1963.





There are many other bridges in the area... one, I believe it's the Gerald Desmond, has netting below... to catch any falling concrete. Now that is comforting, isn't it?

[KharmaTrain]

31. This Was A Unique Design

Only wiki appears to mention it...but this is not a typical suspension bridge...it was a new design. There was no center support, like other bridges have...so it wouldn't mess with the rapids and shipping on the river. The bridge was held up by columns on either side...and that any stress or fatigue on one of those joints could have set this whole tragedy in motion. If anything, the design may have lessened the tragedy as it fell whole...as opposed to the bridge breaking in the middle and cars falling into the water before the bridge fell ontop of them.

Even with the design, this disaster looks like to could have been prevented but tax cuts for the rich and a war for profit are far more important than our own safety. Who needs Al Queda flying planes into buildings, just leave it to the booosh regime to defund our infrastracture and just let the bridges collapse, dams burst and thousands more are killed or injured. Mission accomplished.

[FogerRox]

42. Looks like a modifies howe truss. But very shallow

any pics before the fall ?

[RL3AO]

43. It was a deck truss.

[FogerRox]

46. truss bridges come in 2 basic flavors thru or deck

Heres a Warren deck truss



Howe thru truss



Pratt thru truss.



I doubt the drawing is accurate in the OP, as that is only suitable for short spans under 50 ft.

[Maddy McCall]

44. The "Rainbow Bridge" in Orange, TX, is the scariest bridge I've ever driven across.

[Fenris]

45. Holy crap that bridge is scary.

I swear they must have had a roller coaster designer engineer the damn thing. :scared:

I remember having to use that bridge to get to the beach when I was a kid. There was also a wonderful seafood restaurant on one side, Esther's, that was very good. I don't know if it's still there.

:hi:

[Maddy McCall]

47. Get this, Fenris.

My very first time to drive across that bridge, I was driving a 76 Ford LTD towing a trailer with two 3-wheelers on it. The wind was whipping the trailer from side to side...back then, you could drive at 15. I was TERRIFIED. I was crying, begging my dad to let me stop. He told me that I couldn't stop and had to go on...I thought we were going to die.

Every time I cross that bridge now, my knuckles are white. I still hate driving across it.

Last time we were there, before Rita, Esther's was still there. I haven't eaten there in over a decade, though. It was good!

[Fenris]

50. That sounds utterly frightening.

The wind whipping that boat of a car with a trailer on the back...I probably would have jumped out of the car. :scared:

I wonder if Esther's is still there. Every time I go back I'm amazed at the amount of stuff that isn't there anymore. Rita really wiped it out. :(

[Maddy McCall]

80. I really need to get over there in the next couple of weeks...

I want to see Pleasure Island. I heard that it was demolished. :( My mother and dad's first date was to a ballroom that used to be on Pleasure Island, back in the 1950s.

Esther's must still be there.

I found this photo in someone's photo album, dated 5-1-07. :D

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2008710550030177959fOFQwk

[Connie_Corleone]

51. Good Lord! That's scary just looking at it! LOL

I don't like driving over bridges anyway, but I would have a panic attack going over that thing!

[Maddy McCall]

78. It is terrifying!

I hate driving over it to this day.

:scared:

[Olney Blue]

55. I will NOT be visiting Orange, TX anytime soon!

:scared:

[Maddy McCall]

79. Well, you gotta visit Port Arthur sometime....

if for no other reason than for Nick's boudin, manufactured at Nick's Grocery, in Port Arthur, TX.

:9

[Jamastiene]

84. There is just no fucking way.

I would turn into the most stubborn person in the world complete with folded arms and smug look before I'd drive across that. I've seen roller coasters with less incline. :scared:

[FogerRox]

48. read the report they were battling poor welding during construction

cracks, and more cracks

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/i35wbridge/pdfs/bridge_inspection_report_06-15-06.pdf

[karlrschneider]

56. Lots of band-aids. Like with 20,000 other bridges.

:shrug:

[Blue_Roses]

63. no doubt

wow, after reading that report, I'm amazed it lasted as long as it did...

[Gregorian]

58. Interesting stuff.

There were strain guages that were installed to meter stresses. This is from a stress analysis report I read last night, on this forum. So we know it was within engineering limits.

But it's the real world stuff that's the killer. Severe pigeon debris; Truss members with section loss; Fatigue cracking on approach spans. (Incidentally, I noticed both ends of the bridge appeared to fall nearly simultaneously. Which makes me wonder. About what, I don't know.) In fact, all of this is conjecture. One critical problem? A combination of problems adding up to create a failure situation? Investigation will yield meaningful results. Although it does appear to be a bridge fraught with problems, these may be normal for a bridge that age. See how I carefully avoid making any meaningful statements? Ha.

"South abutment bearings in full contraction." Hmm. That's interesting. I believe these are the rollers that allow the non-pinned part of the bridge to float, in order to keep the structure from being indeterminate. That could have contributed to additional stresses?

Any or all of these could be normal findings. But it's interesting to just look at these before investigation gets underway.

[FogerRox]

66. all normal, but a lot of different forces at work to potentially cause a

catastrophic failure.

piers tipping, welding on the original contruction being poor.

>sigh<

Assembled at KOS

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/2/221827/0328

[Gregorian]

82. Nice. I just gave it a look.

I remember doing statics analysis on those kinds of structures. It's pretty fun stuff. Method of Joints. But that is just statics. There are tiers of engineering that take off from there. Some I'm forgetting right now. But vibrations and dynamics are part of it. And as we're hearing, attention to failure modes and redundancy.

But it's the real life stuff that turns the situation into a more complex one. Corrosion. Production flaws. I marvel at the things that have been done. I just shy away from it all. Some people are more able to take on big projects.

Also, we have made serious strides in stress analysis since '67. Whole theories have come into being.

I'm not sure of the date when this was created, but look at Castagliano's theory. It's something I was forced to use to evaluate the stresses in a bicycle frame in a class in stress analysis. It's pretty amazingly accurate.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Structural_Engineering

[FogerRox]

94. IMHO a poor design

.having a roadway wider than the truss is definitely a problem as it violates the basic strength of the truss design, IMHO makes for a weaker design... Think of it in the context of load transfer..... seems very ineffective to me. IMHO one would have to have the road deck be supported by a separate truss system prependicular to the main trusses to properly transfer load from the edge of the 8 lane road deck/trusses to the main trusses. As built this design does not include this road deck truss, thusly cannot transfer load effectively to the main truss.

The twisting stresses were not accounted for in the design. Coupled with the lack of proper load transfer from the road deck to the main truss, along with poor welds during construction and poor maintence..

...well, there is a multi faceted set of problems that led to failure.

[Blue_Tires]

62. i remember one or two in Rhode Island i didn't feel comfy on

don't remember the names (one of them was demolished a couple years ago)

[MiniMe]

72. Has anybody ever been across the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel?

It is about 20 miles long, and there are 2 tunnels in the middle of the bridge. Everything about it is man-made. They made an island on the middle span of the bridge, and when you are 10 miles from land in any direction, it is kind of freaky. Take a look at some of the pics. http://www.cbbt.com/

[Longhorn]

76. We crossed it going north in 1994.

It's actually pretty cool! I was on a five-week trip with my four kids, age 10 to 15 at the time, in a van pulling a pop-up camper. I don't remember that bridge-tunnel system being scary.

[defendandprotect]

75. Actually, TRUCK traffic has increased temendously -- and frequently now our highways

have potholes and tire remains and other debris in the lanes -- !!!!

But truck traffic takes a huge toll on our roadways --

[Junkdrawer]

91. Yep. Trucks caused stress cracks that exceeded 4 feet in some cases....

Eventually, the whole structure just sheared off...

[Skittles]

88. I remember 1967

my observations now are:

There are more vehicles

There are more HUGE vehicles

People are fatter

[Blue_Roses]

100. true

nt

[JVS]

101. Are you suggeting that the bridge collapsed because the people were too fat?

[Skittles]

105. no

even if weight did cause the bridge to collapse, the root cause would still be deficient maintenance

[bklyncowgirl]

89. What about the Brooklyn Bridge--over 100 years old and still going strong.

That was built for horse and wagon traffic.

Quality of construction, design and of course proper maintenance make a big difference. I'd say the same for the Golden Gate and George Washington bridges.

We'll probably find out that they skimped on the maintenance over the years to save money.

No one cares about bridges until they fall down.

[Junkdrawer]

92. The Brooklyn Bridge is a study in structural redundancy. The I 35 Bridge....

had NO structural redundancy.

[bklyncowgirl]

93. Back in the 1800s they built things to last and damn the cost.

The Brooklyn Bridge was breaking new ground--the Roeblings weren't going to take a chance on having the damn thing collapse on them.

So much of New York City's infrastructure was built back in those days and amazingly is still working. Hell, there are Roman bridges in Europe that are still in use.

Wasn't there some sort of report that the only pumps in New Orleans that actually worked were built before the 1930s.

We think we're so clever with our ability to calculate things that we forget about the need to make things last.

[FogerRox]

104. Excellent observation, very accurate.

[theHandpuppet]

90. Now THIS is a bridge

http://www.historicbridges.org/ohio/sciotoville/index.htm

Just down the road from my mom's house. Spans the Ohio River and been handling loaded coal cars for the railroad since 1916. Still going strong!

[JohnShadows]

95. Mechanical vibrations -

There's equations for this type of thing, it's a topic of Manufacturing Engineering. There is always vertical 'play' in this type of structure, even though it may be miniscule. These small oscillations are called 'vibrations'. The vibrations have the effect of stressing and wearing the bridge, as does the downward force on it's surface of the cars coming across. The stress-loads over time are well-known, and bridges should be retired long before they reach a critical threshold, since the stakes are so high for failure.

[Gregorian]

97. It's called infinite fatigue life.

And according to the calculations, it was within the limits. In other words, for the loads it was experiencing now, it could last forever. But that testing may have been incorrect. I doubt it, since this was not a complex engineering study. Just a fairly basic bridge structure.

It's the real world stuff, and other design insufficiencies that may have caused this.


From my limited experience in seeing bridges fall (as in zero), I have been impressed by how the bridge fell all at once. What I am thinking is that the attachments were so weak that they failed at essentially the same times. This would most likely indicate some kind of abnormal failure of the coupling areas. Cracks, thinned beams from corrosion. One would expect part of the bridge to come crashing down, and the other half hanging on at least a moment or so before then failing. But it all failed.

[Junkdrawer]

102. From the 2001 U of Mn engineering study: (Pg 29)

http://www.lrrb.org/pdf/200110.pdf

[SmokingJacket]

103. What about the bridge alongside it, the 10th Avenue one?

It was built in 1929 and is still standing. Plus, it's architecturally more appealing than the average bridge.