Question for vets

[JoDog]

Ok, here goes...I have never been in the military (turned down for medical reasons) and have fired a gun only once on a range in full daylight. Today's reports on the observation of the docs who examined Pat Tillman's body have led me to a question that I don't have the knowledge or experience to answer. I'm hoping that some of our DUers who have served can give their opinions.

Presume that the doctors' guess is correct (which, to be fair, is a leap, but just presume) and Tillman's skull was shattered by 3 bullets fired from approximately 10 yards away from his position.

Under the conditions at the scene (darkness, confusion and stress) would the average soldier be able to tell a friendly from an enemy at approximately 10 yards? It would seem to me that at that distance, even taking the lack of light into account, a soldier should be able to at least recognize the outline of a friendly in battle gear and this weapon, if not see them outright. However, as I said, I've never been there. Does anyone have any thoughts?

[MADem]

1. Here's another question--NO one had night vision gear? No one?? nt

[Mend]

3. Gen. Wes Clark said last night on KO that it was dusk, not dark, and that

his outline was obvious (big football player), and his weapon outline would also be seen and recognized as an American weapon. I agree with the General who has served in the military for 40 years and feels it was highly suspicious. I am twice a vet and it sounds like assassination to me. Also, the tightness of the cluster of bullet wounds in his forehead suggest murder, not random shots.

[MADem]

4. Well, I wouldn't argue with Wes either on that score. And you're right--that's not random.

That brings us to yet another question: WHY???

[mtnester]

6. If it was murder, there are a couple reasons why

all of them sickening..I think you probably have a couple in mind yourself.

Everything this administration touches/has anything to do with turn to liquid shit or worse.

[MADem]

18. There is an article that obliquely infers that a "sniveler" may have whacked him

Here's the link. It doesn't come right out and say so, but it's sort of obliquely suggests it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070726/ap_on_re_us/tillman_friendly_fire;_ylt=AlGiIfbhJtGDTYu0n02oDM.s0NUE

Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week....It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

[Mend]

23. I would guess that the "sniveler" would be the last person to kill big and

strong and brave and protective Pat Tillman...who would cover his ass then?

[MADem]

29. Maybe the sniveller had a battle buddy, standing ten yards away? NT

[Zywiec]

5. The M-4 has a three round burst

In this mode, one squeeze of the trigger fires three rounds very quickly. That would explain the tightness of the shot group. Being an ex-Infantry officer, I've trained a lot of troops who would constantly get out of their "lane" and into friendly fire. I think suggesting this is murder and not an accident is a little exaggerated.

[TwilightGardener]

9. LOL! You're going to be fighting an uphill battle here with that kind of sound reasoning.

The conspiracy is building to monumental proportions.

[MADem]

20. Again, I would urge you also to read the article I posted upthread.

I don't think that BushCo had the guy killed, but that fellah he was calling a "snivelling expletive" certainly had means, motive and opportunity to squeeze off a round at ten yards or less to dispatch his tormenter.

"Ooops, my finger slipped!!!"

There WAS a cover-up. We already know that. We're finding out it wasn't just a coverup of how he died, it may have been a coverup of a crime--a murder, or manslaughter.

[TwilightGardener]

22. I don't know--I think if the guy next to him shot him, the wounds

(entry/exit) would have looked different, and there was a chaplain there too, right? It's really hard to prove that he was intentionally murdered or fragged (as opposed to accidental friendly fire) without being able to pinpoint the shooter. This may just go unsolved either because of the "fog of war" or because someone involved won't step forward. I do hate to see DUers suddenly try to pin the "murder" on BushCo because of the Chomsky revelation--this administration has a TON of enemies--Tillman was really not that big a fish, despite his fame. The real crime is still the cover-up, I believe, and the propaganda beforehand. Without new evidence, that's all we're left with.

[MADem]

28. His mother believes it was a fragging

It wouldn't surprise me if her sense is correct. After all, his brother was over there, he knew full well what the dynamic was between the deceased and his squad.

I'm not getting into the whole "Bush Sent An Assassin" nonsense. I don't believe that, frankly. Unit cohesion would immediately be disrupted by a stranger in their midst, and someone would talk about it. But I am completely able to envision ascenario where someone who wasn't quite as tough had reached his breaking point, or was angry at Tillman for calling his buddy a snivelling fucker, or what have you--and just .... squeezed.

Don't believe that all chaplains are paragons of virtue, either. They aren't. This guy's story is quite different from the one that was shopped--why didn't this chaplain pipe up, if he knew the real deal? Perhaps his CAREER--and the fact that he punched a battlefield ticket, good for at least two rungs on the promotion ladder--took precedence over his calling. You should see the shit some folks of the cloth pull around promotion selection board time--they go out of their way to dish dirt on their competition to the upper ranks who will sit on their promotion boards. Many of them are craven shits, frankly.

[Bandit]

10. I have never fired an M-4 and don't even know what it is really but

I have fired thousands of rounds through an M-16, M-60, and AK-47. I have never been able to have a tight group in full automatic mode. When I was a machine-gunner extreme accuracy was very important and I fired solid tracer rounds instead of four and one. We had to have the ability to suppress within a couple of meters of team on the ground. While I do know that friendly fire is indeed very common I find your explanation a little hard to agree with. I am not saying it was definitely not friendly fire but I think it is suspicious and an investigation is in order.

[DS1]

16. The M4 is essentially an M16 with a shorter barrel and folding/smaller stock

which makes it better suited for close-combat and building-clearing, as well as probably a bit lighter.

[JoDog]

12. Definitely needs to be investigated

and I agree with you that the loud cries of "murder" are coming a little too soon. The (for now) anonymous doctors were not experienced homicide investigators or coroners. They simply noticed something in their examination that did not jibe with the story they had been told, and encouraged their superiors to launch an investigation. Remember also, the "10 yards" statement is just a guess on the doctors' part, and shouldn't be taken as gospel at this point.

The question here should be why, considering all the evidence, a probe was not started. Add to that the information that has been made public since Tillman's death (the destruction of his uniform, body armor and diary, his open disagreement with his mission, the light conditions at the time of his death, Bush asserting executive privilege on documents pertaining to the death, and Tillman verbally identifying himself) and a bleak picture does emerge.

But I must remember always that horrible, but honest, mistakes do happen in war. A friend who served in Vietnam once told me of a friendly fire incident in his platoon. During an engagement, another soldier heard a sound behind him--another platoon member making some noise. Without thinking, and in full daylight, the first turned around and opened fire. A tragic mistake, but still just a mistake.

Without a full and honest investigation, Tillman's family may never know what really happened.

[Zywiec]

17. I think an investigation should be conducted as well

I just don't immediately scream murder as so many are quick to do. Of course without so many knee-jerk comments, what would a blog be anyway?

[MADem]

19. His MOTHER thinks he was murdered. It only takes one squeeze of the trigger and a decent aim to do

that. I think you need to read the article I linked to that is posted upthread.

Some salient excerpts--the part about NO ENEMY FIRE is especially interesting, and curious:


.....the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman's comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman's death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident.

The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

Among other information contained in the documents:

• In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

• Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

• The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

• No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene — no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

[VP505]

8. Not just murder

but execution! I have no doubt Gen Clark is absolutely correct. Plus as I understand it Ranger Tillman after realizing someone was firing on his position was shouting "I AM PAT FU***** TILLMAN", hear-able at an estimated 10 yards.

[MADem]

30. I remember reading that story, and foolishly believing it. It was before the brokenness of the

military was fully apparent. Turns out he never said that....at least according to the new story.

But hey, who really knows? I do have to say, his mother thinks something's not right. And his brother was over there... the brother certainly had a better view of the behavior of his unit before and after the events.

[JoDog]

11. Missed KO last night

and didn't hear Clark's opinion. I agree with him that it seems highly suspicious. But I don't what to jump to conclusions in my own mind with an uninformed opinion. While it certainly does sound a lot like assassination to me too, a part of me just doesn't want to make that leap. Then again, a part of me didn't want to believe that our soldiers would ever be sent to die in an illegal, unjust war. I had to let go of that particular set of rose-colored glasses. I may have to break this pair as well.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[NYVet]

2. your thoughts

Your initial thoughts are correct, the Kevlar, LBE, and equiptment that soldiers wear is distinctive in low light and a hazy smoke.

I don't want to judge anyone thought, because I was not there when this happened, and when I was shot at in Somalia, I was running on a LOT of adrenaline and stress.

[petronius]

21. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[DS1]

7. I'd presume that if you have time to sight on the forehead

you have time to identify the person. If it was a quick reaction shot, training should lead to three bullets starting at the abdomen and working their way up.

UNLESS - of course, after yelling the famous phrase, he popped his head over a rock and that's the only part which was exposed.

Still, you think the shooter would eventually come out to the public

[JoDog]

13. Can they tell

which soldier was the shooter? I can't remember all the details of the official investigation right now, but I think that if everyone in the group was carrying the same weapon it might be difficult to tell exactly who was the shooter.

[DS1]

15. It's unlikely the bullets were recovered

they'd be likely shattered into little pieces, and then flung out in all different directions and buried in sand.

I meant more along the lines of the shooter coming out and saying he was the one.

[HiddenInVA]

25. What would confession gain?

I really doubt that anybody is going to step forward at this point and confess to firing the killing
shots.

Maybe in the beginning, it would have been "Well, it was an accident", etc. But now, with the allegations
of a cover-up, it'd be prison time for the trigger puller, even if it was an accident. (I don't know
either way.)

So unless somebody has a serious case of 'attack of conscience', I wouldn't hold my breath. Messed up,
but the truth.....

[JoDog]

27. Now, it's the coverup

and not the possible crime that may matter. If military officials had said from the beginning that it was friendly fire and an awful mistake, the story would have died right there. The man who pulled the trigger would have faced limited reprecussions, if any. But now, since it is likely that the shooter took some small role in the cover up he would face legal problems. Not to mention the general hatred of the nation. So they have no incentive to come forward, except the aforementioned attack of conscience.

Instead, Pat Tillman and his family were used, for a cause Tillman himself expressed doubts in.

Now, we may have to start asking ourselves another disturbing question: if the Army was willing to lie about Tillman's death for propaganda reasons, what else might they be lying about?

Thanks to all the vets and folks experienced with firearms who have taken the time to answer my original post. Ya'all have given this hound a lot to think about.

[AnExtremist]

14. I think the question more important than the evidence, per say

Would be, what would the motive be? Was he worth more dead or alive, and to who?

[ljm2002]

26. A very plausible motive...

...would be that this high-profile hero, who had put his lucrative football career on hold to fight in Afghanistan, was outspoken about his opposition to the illegal invasion of Iraq, and had plans to meet with Noam Chomsky on his next leave -- possibly planning to go public with his own negative opinions on the war in Iraq.

I'm not saying I know whether it was or was not a murder (or assassination). I'm just saying, there is a very understandable motive for it -- especially considering the coverup -- they not only tried to cover it up using the usual bureaucratic methods, they also burned his uniform and his diary. That smacks of something more than just a coverup about an accident... IMO.

[Mend]

24. the doctors said it was suspicious and the big brass told them to shut up...