The contempt citation of Harriet Miers and Josh Bolten - realistically - will they ever be punished?

[RiverStone]

Best case scenario: jail time!

Worst case scenario: the legal process runs its course, and Shrub's lackies on the Supreme Court forgive them --- or Georgie gives them a Libby and they skate...


OK, I'm being overly simplistic - but what is the end game here, really?

[soothsayer]

1. Even tho he will pardon them, congress needs to take a stand and say NO,

you are NOT a dictator. Plus it's another thing that will help creep inexorably towards impeachment.

[Gman]

7. Bush cannot pardon them for contempt of Congress

that is a violation of the separation of powers.

[soothsayer]

24. seriously??? then, damn, I hope congress starts throwing some contempt at them!

[Toots]

25. But he can influence Gonzo to not indicting them.

Remember the justice dept has to present the evidence to a Grand Jury for indictment. If Just Us decides they don't want to bother then :shrug: There will be no Contemt indictments, of that we can be assurred. Bush* has absolutely nothing to lose so is capable of anything..He is despised in his country and even his own Party is turning their backs. Just as he did with Libby, he will not allow any of his cronies to be punished for anything..He is afterall the "Decider"

[Gman]

28. And that's fine because

he can't pardon or protect anyone from inherent contempt charges because that's a violation of the separation of powers. The SCOTUS cannot even issue a writ of habeas corpus for the same reason. It's an internal matter that concerns the House only.

[RiverStone]

30. If it is the House only...

What is the "constitutional crisis" that some in the MSM like to tout as a looming possibility? It seems the corrupt administration of Shrub and Shooter would be hard pressed to simply stay out of the House's business --- as much as I wish they would! Shrub is too damn arrogant to not (mind his business).

Where does executive privilege (or not) clash with the House trying Gonzo for lying?

[Gman]

32. The MSM is playing up the US Attorney referral angle

which would likely involve the SCOTUS and I think they're playing that up for the entertainment value. I've yet to see the MSM even breathe the words "inherent contempt".

I don't think Shrub is smart enough to know what to do. He's got a lot of neocons calling the shots and telling him what to do and why he needs to do it including the nutcase Fred Fielding.

I don't know where executive privilege comes in to play for Gonzo. Maybe someone else can answer that. I think the biggest issue with Gonzo may be attorney-client privilege but I don't have a complete grasp of everything going on with Gonzo.

[xultar]

2. We all know they won't get jail time. What a way to help prove to the masses

that BUSH is evil.

[libnnc]

3. No. But they'll get a really sweet book deal.

Followed by consulting jobs on FUX News and fellowships at AEI.

[tridim]

4. What about "They are forced to testify" option?

Bush can't pardon that can he?

[theoldman]

5. It will go on their records and will restrict what they can do

as lawyers. At present all it does is harass them and Bush.

[Gman]

6. Read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1431321

or go directly to the article here:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/20/AR2007072001802.html

as to why the courts cannot interfere with inherent contempt due to the separation of powers. There is no habeas corpus as that is a legal procedure for the courts and this is purely a congressional proceeding. And there is no presidential pardon for the same reason.

[RiverStone]

12. Will Congress then spank or jail them?

Gman, given your understanding of this is better than mine - what is your best case/worst case scenario?

thanks :)

[Gman]

16. I think that

the best case scenario is that the contempt charges are referred to the DC USA. The USA refuses to present the charges to a grand jury. At this point, Bush, Gonzo, the USA his self and others are guilty of conspiracy and obstruction of justice. This bolsters the case even further for impeachment. Then, the charges are processed as inherent contempt and Miers and Bolten are both imprisoned until they talk or January 2009 and the new congress, whichever comes first. My guess is they'll talk eventually.

Worst case is the contempt charges are handled as inherent contempt, Miers and Bolten are imprisoned until they talk or January 2009 and the new Congress, whichever comes first. Again, they'll likely talk eventually.

In either case, the King Bush is in check and possibly checkmate because 1) in the case of criminal contempt, the implications of not filing charges and/or pardon imply conspiracy and coverup, but also 2) in the case of inherent contempt, neither Bush nor the SCOTUS can protect them because of the separation of powers and the conspiracy and coverup come to light eventually.

Both cases lead to a stronger case for impeachment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. So they can't just ignore the charges?

I guess I am confused by something I read here. It said the DOJ would be prosecuting and Gonzales would likely direct the USA to not follow through.

[Gman]

27. They can ignore the charges at their political peril

and in the meantime, inherent contempt charges can be approved by the House, Miers and Bolten get arrested and drug onto the floor of the House then incarcerated (likely the DC jail according to precedent) until they talk or until the expiration of this congress in January 09. No pardon, no habeas corpus writ from the SCOTUS because that's a violation of the separation of power.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

8. There are reports from the WH that they will not allow the DOJ try the case. Without

Inherent Contempt proceedings, justice will not prevail.

[dmosh42]

10. Yes, if they try them in the House....

their whole 'house of cards' will collapse. It's apparent they're counting on theior stooge DOJ, and stooge judges.

[BlooInBloo]

9. DOJ refuses to prosecute, so the house moves on to inherent civil contempt...

... which is not pardonable or commutable (the detained has the keys to the jail in their own possession), and when Congress' power is challenged in court, they have the bang-up defense "we were forced to it your honor, by virtue of the executive refusing to prosecute".

[wiggs]

13. This will go to Supreme Court (a year or more from now?) to decide the issue of

executive priviledge vs congressional power before DOJ has to decide whether or not there's sufficient evidence to proceed. DOJ will likely take a long time to do that, right, assuming SCOTUS rules in favor of congress and the people? So are we goingg to be discussing inherent contempt after these guys leave office in January 09? Will we have the same motivations and need to do it then?

[wiggs]

11. Simple: No. This is cosmetic, which may have some minor value, but the

overall problem remains. This does not change WH behavior one iota in a positive direction.

Not only that...in your best case scenario we're probably talking at least a year before any of this is resolved legally...only to end in commutation or pardon. Are we then, at that point, going to have to debate inherent contempt or Gonzales impeachment all over again?

[dmosh42]

14. In case of inherent contempt, they will be locked up,....

and the onus will be on the WH to challenge it in the federal legal system. Who cares how long it takes as long as they rot in jail for a while.

[RiverStone]

17. And how long before they get their first serving of jail food?

Of course, they would be in unique federally managed resort/prison - doubt they would ever be served gravy on toast!

Given the smoke and mirror routine that surely will be used to the extreme, what would be the fastest track for this - or would we need to reach the level of a constitutional crisis first?

[The Stranger]

15. Maybe you're right.

Fuck it. Let's just drop the whole thing.

:sarcasm:

[sinkingfeeling]

18. Punished? Doubtful. They will take the cases to court to press the executive privilege issue.

If the SCOTUS upholds prior rulings, then the Bush administration loses and Miers and Bolten will show up to give testimony. That's what happened with some of Clinton's aides.

[Junkdrawer]

19. The smart money is on some sort of cave-in compromise like:

Meirs' assistant will testify

-or-

Bolton but not Meirs

-or-

They can interview her off the record, but no notes

or something like that...

[dmosh42]

20. don't think so....

This gang is up to their neck in crooked stuff, plus I really believe they think they can 'rig' it in their favor. All the 'stooges' are lined up waiting for a congressional court case, unless they go the 'inherent contempt' route.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. no

[mmonk]

22. I don't know. I have my doubts. Inherent contempt would pique

my interest but some of this just seems like more of the same.

[Disturbed]

26. The House took the chicken shit way out.

They should have waited until their month vacation is over and issued Inherent Contempt which has some direct consequences and no long drawn out court battles. This is a grand disappointment. The House is full of spineless, complicit, corp ass kissers.

[Gman]

29. YOu must not be reading this thread

the courts cannot interfere as that's a violation of the separation of power.

[BenDavid]

31. Even though it may not bring

anyone to justice at least the Dems will have in front of the American people just how corrupt the Bush Administration is. With the Scooter Libby commuted sentence and over 70% of Americans saying it was wrong this will allow the Dems to speak directly to the people and will force if the Dems play it right, the repub candidates to go on record whether they support or deny.....This is what the Dems have lacked thus far. Someone speaking to the people and telling them what Congress is doing and how the repubs in the Senate are blocking any legislation.....
It is past time the Dems took the damn offensive....

I do thank you
Ben David