Is it unfair, inaccurate, or irresponsible to say that all the troops died in vain?

[Philosoraptor]

Would it be too harsh of a statement? Too politically incorrect? Too brutal or jaded?

If Americans die by the thousands in a fight that never had to be, was based purely on lies and sold as a noble cause, if the whole damned war was unnecessary and trumped up for profits rather than freedom and democracy, then didn't all the fallen in Iraq die for nothing? In vain?

It's too horrible to answer, let alone ask.

[LostInAnomie]

1. Nope.

It's one of those things people know but are too afraid to admit.

[David__77]

2. It isn't in vain.

The say it's "in vain" implies that the cause for which they died is somehow morally neutral. That is not the case.

[dysfunctional press]

15. "in vain" also implies fighting for a lost cause, or an unachieved goal.

it could be said that pretty much anyone dying for the losing side of a war ultimately died in vain.

[David__77]

23. I'm not sure the term fits.

Someone who dies while unsuccessfully attempting to protect their loved ones from attack did not die in vain, despite the failure of their objective - they died in an act of heroism, not one bit less heroic that a successful one. On the other hand, dying for an unjust cause-whether succesful or not-is also not in vain. It has definite moral content.

[dysfunctional press]

39. if you fight a war and lose- you might as well not have fought it at all.

in that sense- ALL losses- even "heroic" ones- are ultimately made in vain.

as for "Someone who dies while unsuccessfully attempting to protect their loved ones from attack" -if you're saying that their loved ones would have died whether or not they themselves had 'tried and died', then i would have to say that they most certainly DID die in vain...had you said that someone on the losing side of a war died to protect their family, or their fellow soldiers- who all went on to live, albeit for the losing side- i might have been able to agree that they didn't die entirely in vain- but if they die trying to save someone who dies anyway- then yes, imho (and pretty much by definition) they have died in vain.

[jgraz]

3. If we can't stand to hear the truth, we should never go to war. Ever.

And the truth is that every American and Iraqi died for nothing but ego and greed.

[countmyvote4real]

12. Thank you, jgraz.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

[Selatius]

4. It's not unfair, inaccurate, or irresponsible because it's an opinion.

Each is entitled to his or her own opinions on the matter.

For most people, though, I think they'd rather not ask the question because they know what the answer is.

[Vincardog]

5. Nope not in vain for Parasitic Corporate Profit

[dysfunctional press]

6. halliburton stockholders would have to strongly disagree...

as would the stockholders of all the players in the military game.

[cynatnite]

7. IMO, it's up the individual to determine that...

If someone feels that fighting in Iraq is worth their life and determines that it means something, that's their choice. I don't think anyone outside of that should have a say in that regard.

We may believe that it's in vain, they died for nothing, but I won't tell a family member that because I think it's not up to us to make that determination.

[BeyondGeography]

8. Think of the survivors first

Their loved one's service to the country was in most every case an act of necessity for themselves and/or their families, or an act of citizenship before it was a political statement. To say they died in vain is to strip their decision to serve of all meaning. It's dehumanizing for the victim and demoralizing for those who survive, and, from a self-serving point of view if you're running for office, bad politics.

One can be stridently opposed to a war without saying individuals died in vain.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

9. The Corporate WHORE Media Will NEVER Allow That

They'll CRUCIFY anyone who goes there.

They still attack guys like Kerry for speaking out against the Vietnam War, and that was obviously the best comparison of a war where American soldiers' lives were WASTED!

[mmonk]

10. Not if the oil deal comes through.

That's why they are there. Maybe that's why it's one of the benchmarks, so everyone can then claim victory and go home except those guarding it.

[Disturbed]

14. If the Western Oil Corps secure Iraqi oil then the dead troops

will have done their duty. All the ones that have been maimed, as well. They get new legs and arms out of the deal.

[jpgray]

11. A soldier's death can be honorable independent of the cause for which he fought

Or the results of his mission.

[jedicord]

16. Yes Yes Yes.

My husband fought in Desert Storm. He sincerely believed he was defending his country from evil. He was willing to give his life if necessary in this defense.

He now sees the Iraq War as an abomination, because he knows the majority of the US soldiers there believe the same as he did. And he's angry that they are being duped. These soldiers believe they have the potential to lose their life, but that's OK, because they are defending our country.

And that is honor.

Still, our job is to get them back home away from the ultimate sacrifice for a lie.

[David__77]

25. How is that?

Is the honor simply a product of "service to the nation?" If so, then all soldiers performing their duties in wars waged by nation-states may claim that honor, possibly excepting those personally guilty of war crimes.

[jpgray]

26. "Can" be honorable.

[David__77]

27. I know. But what would define that?

If it's not simply service to the nation, then what would make it honorable?

[jpgray]

29. How do we define "honorable" to begin with? I think it would be much the same.

[Hippo_Tron]

48. They put their life on the line based on the premise that they were defending their country

The fact that the premise was false doesn't make what they did any less honorable.

[LSK]

13. it is the truth

They died in vain. That is what happened. No WMD, no Al Queda before we got there, no nukes, no threat to America what-so-ever.

[Double T]

17. If 'WE' remember Viet Nam and Iraq before 'WE' step into the voting booth........

perhaps no one will need to die in vain again. Every death and every maimed person is 110% bushco's responsibility and NONE other. The question is too horrible to ask because 'WE' already know the answer.

[TheBaldyMan]

18. inaccurate, they died (and continue to die) for a pack of lies

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

19. I now believe,...that,...earnestly respecting their lives requires me to face their deaths in vain.

These incredible people ENROLLED THEIR LIVES to serve and protect our people, their interests, the laws of this land, the Constitution and the democratic system that allows opportunity to everyone.

Our military is dying for something other than the above,...something horrifying to decent people. They are dying for political power of an elite, greedy, immoral cabal which does not give a shit about anyone other than themselves.

So, in answer to your question: I believe it is FAIR, ACCURATE and RESPONSIBLE to say our troops HAVE DIED and ARE DYING IN VAIN. Their lives are certainly worthy of the truth about their deaths.

:cry:

I HATE HATE HATE to be in that position because it is NOT HOW LIFE IN AMERICA, AS AN AMERICAN IS SUPPOSED TO BE!!! But,...reality is what it is.

[Mojorabbit]

20. Well I remember well

the domino theory from the vietnam days. All those millions of vietnamese who died and all of our young men. And look at the situation today. I guess it is a personal opinion of whether it was in vain or not.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Next question. Did they kill in vain and are they still doing so?

As a pacifist, and an ex-GI, I believe all soldiers die in vain. And, kill in vain.

[Madspirit]

34. As always...THANK-YOU! I said something similar....n/t

[frogcycle]

22. it is a hollow, meaningless phrase

that just serves as a wedge issue

insisting on using it inflames many of the families who are understandably offended. They want to think their soldier was a hero, was doing something important.

without question many died without having the opportunity to really accomplish anything. So did the first ones ashore on D-Day.

People who are killed by drunk drivers die "in vain"

The fact is that if he person BELIEVED he/she was putting it on the line in a just cause, then that person's sacrifice is to be honored. Trying to make the point that the person was being tricked just makes the loss all the more horrifying to the survivors.

I insist that collectively, the troops are being treated like the Charge of the Light Brigade, riding on into the Valley of Death. It is very tricky, though, to make the point that they died unfairly, without serving a noble purpose (rather, actually serving a very ignoble purpose - oil piracy) and yet still honor the individuals and the families for their sacrifice.

This is a semantic debate best left alone, IMO.

[SoonerPride]

28. Sorry, but the truh shall set you free

Hiding behind bogus claims of heroism and valor for a needless, pointless, illegal war will only lead to more such misadventures.

They have died in vain.

Pointless.
Waste.
Sad.

[Spike89]

43. Point of view is important

Are our leaders wasting our soldiers sacrifices? I think so. Are their deaths in vain? You need to define that better. There is value and in some ways the best of humanity in the ideal that someone is willing to put themselves at risk for the betterment of society. Someone giving their life to protect others isn't in vain. Callously misusing those sacrifices for political or economic gain is about the most disgusting thing I can think of.
This question is terribly loaded. Did Bushco vainly destroy thousands and thousands of lives? Yup. Did every soldier who died die in vain? No way.

[frogcycle]

44. thanks

glad at least one other person sees that

[MonkeyFunk]

24. It may be correct

but it's certainly hurtful to the loved ones of those who've died, and any politician who isn't a buffoon would avoid saying it.

[LWolf]

30. It's not unfair, inaccurate, or irresponsible. It's just too hurtful.

I don't know where the "tipping" point is for people to say it anyway, because it's true, and because "ignoring" it doesn't make it go away.

Knowing that it causes people pain, that it exacerbates grief, will keep many of us mute.

As you said, too horrible to ask, let alone answer.

[SoonerPride]

32. That muteness is a silence that = death.

The fact that our brave men and women HAVE DIED IN VAIN should be shouted from rooftops. Hundreds of thousands of angry as hell citizens should be marching on DC and protesting from coast to coast.

Instead, no one wants to "rock the boat" or "hurt people's feelings."

[LWolf]

42. I hear you.

I can say it. It just hurts to do so.

[Swamp Rat]

31. Yes it is

too horrible to answer.

[Madspirit]

33. IMO...it is worse than dying in vain

They died in support of Evil. How many 100s of 1000s of Iraqis have died at the hands of American service people? Sorry, I just don't see anything good or defensible in murdering non-combatants. There are always innocents killed in war, unfortunately but at least, when it's a just war, we don't need to feel shame. In an unjust war, like this one, fought for oil and to avenge Chimpy's dad, how can anyone be supportive. How can anyone not feel shame at our troops being over there murdering people? I just don't get it.
That said, I want them home safely but just blindly supporting them because they are ours, is unconscionable, imo.

Lee

[Cha]

35. The war was started on LIES..perpetuated

by the corporatemediawhores..how can anything be achieved with that tragic start?

The Soldiers should be pulling out NOW but that's not gonna happen.

[Bryn]

36. I honestly don't know

My brother got killed in Viet Nam war in 1969. I've never really gotten over it totally. To me, it's neither in vain nor a noble cause, but he did what he thought was his duty until he got there. He wrote that he did not agree with what was going on and was counting days before he would come home.

[Caution]

37. yes. Some of these died to save other soldiers or civilians

it would be insulting to the exteeme to say they died in vain

[lonestarnot]

38. Nope, not in the least. Dying because of lies is about as in vain as one can get

[w8liftinglady]

40. as a mom who's boy was deployed three times

The first time-Afghanistan-I held hope that this was a true mission with a purpose.As I saw the change in my kid during his second deployment...I lost all faith in the mission.After all I've learned in the interim,I would have to say "yes" they died for a lie.They died for each other...bottom line.Most soldiers hate anyone of Middle-Eastern decent(My personal obsevation of my kid and all his buds)Then we have them counseled by MD Psychiatrists from the middle east.What a fuck up.

[w8liftinglady]

41. I'd like any military families to reply...kicking

[frogcycle]

45. response to various posts upthread

Since last October I have been maintaining a website honoring the American military individuals killed in this obscenity of an occupation. I find links to newspaper articles and their photos online as quickly as I can once the names are released. I look at the faces and read the articles and update my website. I am rarely dry-eyed. I look at them and say "it needn't have happened; your death served no purpose." That, most assuredly, is saying they died "in vain."

From the free online dictionary:

Idiom:
in vain
1. To no avail; without success: Our labor was in vain.

Unless you think that we are achieving any sort of "success" in Iraq, clearly every one of them died "in vain." That is the cold hard truth.

But I also read the stories of the mothers and fathers, wives, husbands, children. In recent months quite a few have been acknowledging it was pointless. They say things like "he just wanted to get out of there; he said we are getting nowhere." They are getting it.

There are those who say "he was a hero; he wanted to serve his country; he joined up right after 9/11; he was protecting us." They are absolutely correct in the first; the last is how they manage to deal with it.

I was contacted a few weeks ago by a mother in a small town in Mississippi whose son was killed in 2005. The army had his hometown wrong. She and her husband search the web for sites like mine, contact the webmasters to correct it. I was the first one who responded. He was completely missing from my site, as my pre-October '07 data was imported from another database that was missing him. I added him, found a tribute page his high school had set up, and put a link to it on my site. In the 2-3 emails I exchanged with this mother, she must have used the word "hero" 7-8 times. I will NOT tell her his life was thrown away. He died 18 months ago, and her hurt is so palpable just in her email, it would serve no purpose to hurt her worse.

Frankly, I think they nearly all "get it" by now.

The families of kids killed at Columbine or V. Tech or by drunk drivers don't even get to have this debate. It is a given that those deaths are devoid of purpose.

It is correct that dispelling the myth that there is purpose to the ones in Iraq might help turn the tide. I just can't abide throwing cold water in the face of that woman in Mississippi.

[frogcycle]

46. The Charge of the Light Brigade

http://poetry.eserver.org/light-brigade.html



The Charge of the Light Brigade
Alfred, Lord Tennyson

1.

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!
"Charge for the guns!" he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

2.

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

3.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.

4.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn'd in air,
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

5.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.

6.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honor the charge they made,
Honor the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred.

[Philosoraptor]

47. ...............