I wish DU had been locking threads discussing ridiculous assertions like this one a few years ago

[NNN0LHI]

They made us all looks stupid. People are probably still laughing at us. And then we had the Winnebagos of Death and the WMD carrying drones that Saddam was going to send over here to spray us with. Jeez, how did we let these wild assertions from known conspiracy theorists like NYT and LA Times make fools of us all back then?

Don

[bemildred]

1. You're saying you think someone pulled this out of his ass?

Nobody appreciates a good story anymore.
:rofl::rofl:

[FourScore]

49. Please have some respect...

:sarcasm:


OBVIOUSLY THE PRESS IS ON TOP OF ALL OF THIS!!!



The story probably reached its high point on NBC's Meet The Press on December 2nd when Tim Russert, the host of the program, provided Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld with the artist's rendering of bin Laden's fortress. The interview proceeded:


Russert: The Times of London did a graphic, which I want to put on the screen for you and our viewers. This is it. This is a fortress. This is a very much a complex, multi-tiered, bedrooms and offices on the top, as you can see, secret exits on the side and on the bottom, cut deep to avoid thermal detection so when our planes fly to try to determine if any human beings are in there, it's built so deeply down and embedded in the mountain and the rock it's hard to detect. And over here, valleys guarded, as you can see, by some Taliban soldiers. A ventilation system to allow people to breathe and to carry on. An arms and ammunition depot. And you can see here the exits leading into it and the entrances large enough to drive trucks and cars and even tanks. And it's own hydroelectric power to help keep lights on, even computer systems and telephone systems. It's a very sophisticated operation.


Rumsfeld: Oh, you bet. This is serious business. And there's not one of those. There are many of those. And they have been used very effectively. And I might add, Afghanistan is not the only country that has gone underground. Any number of countries have gone underground. The tunneling equipment that exists today is very powerful. It's dual use. It's available across the globe. And people have recognized the advantages of using underground protection for themselves.


A few weeks after the "Meet the Press" interview, US special forces and their Afghan allies occupied Tora Bora. They painstakingly searched Gree Khil mountain and the surrounding area. They found no underground fortress, no hydro-electric power plant, no 2000-room hotel, no ant farm, no iron doors, no ventilating shafts. The troglodyte Lair of Bin Laden turned out to be mythic.


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/nether_fictoid3.htm&h=635&w=565&sz=94&hl=en&start=4&sig2=m6zDTBYAoc6E81FoV93RUA&um=1&tbnid=L6mBTJ4-foBNWM:&tbnh=137&tbnw=122&ei=P1iiRvPAC5KIeKiR1SQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbin%2Bladen%252Bcave%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26rls%3DHPIA,HPIA:2006-34,HPIA:en%26sa%3DN

[Kurovski]

67. From the looks of that mountain fortress, I'd call him "Osama Bond Laden."

[tjwash]

65. So THAT's what they were doing at shrubby's colonoscopy this morning.

nt

[flyarm]

2. amazing isn't it!!...and NYT is still called the "paper of record!!" hahahahaha

and the LA Times has been gutted by Neo Cons...

great map!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :applause: :applause: :applause:

where is all the tin foil when we need it???????????

fly

[The Count]

24. Hey! Nobody can spoil Harry Potter like NY Times can! As John Oliver said:

"maybe they are trying to devise a car that runs on the tears of children"!
I am so proud it's MY town paper....:sarcasm:

[MetaTrope]

3. Hey, more than $9 billion cash has gone missing in Iraq

Dubai is building the tallest skyscraper in the world for exactly that much money.

If it's in the hands of the BFEE, what do you suppose they're doing with it?

[dweller]

60. it IS the world's tallest skyscraper !!

it's just underground.

dp

[seemslikeadream]

4. hey I was just carrying water!

[FormerOstrich]

5. lol.....flash from the past...

I am soooo glad you posted this. I have thought about this spread so many times since it was published and often wondered if I dreamed it instead. I remember when I first saw it I just stunned. I thought it so much bullshit!! I still shake my head...and my head sort of explodes when I note the masked gun men. There are sooo many things sooo wrong with this picture...

So tell me, did they ever find anything even remotely (and I mean very remotely because I'm sure anything similar just flat doesn't exist) like this? It should have been easy to find, since the location is listed. Have we seen any Real Photos? Even if the were doctored it'd be hard pressed to resemble this....I'm a bettin'

At least we know that it is easy to visually identify a terrorist since they apparently live and work in masks and constantly carry their weapons......

Thank you!

[NNN0LHI]

6. We still can't question peoples belief in crap like this

If you do it goes somewhere.

Funny. Well not really funny I guess.

Don

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1369063

[KoKo]

20. one thing might explain it...

DLC.

[alcibiades_mystery]

7. LOL: The gunmen look like James Bond arch-enemy henchmen

You almost expect Batman and Robin to pop out with the POW!, ZOOM!, Smashoo!

:rofl:

[SoCalDem]

55. Don't forget Colin's famous demonstration

the one he used

[Liberal In Texas]

63. I hadn't seen those before, I was laughing so hard my eyes were watering. n/t

[SoCalDem]

64. I have another one that's my favorite, but I cannot find it

It must be on my other laptop or on the desktop computer..

but these are funny too..

[malaise]

8. Citizens should have sued their sorry asses n/t

[JohnyCanuck]

9. Those plans must have come from some top secret documents

They must have leaked after Dick forgot to put them away and lock them up in his man sized office safe when he was going home one evening after work. Look, it even shows the exact office where Osama's Head Quarters was located. Don't try and tell me these plans weren't at some point stamped with the Vice Presidential seal and "For Your Eyes Only" in red.

[zonmoy]

10. surprising

that anybody trusts anything that the main stream media says anymore.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

11. But there's no phony volcano opening for the CIA ninjas to slide down ropes from.

How'd they expect to stop the Doomsday missile from launching?

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. Pah - that's a hovel compared with the one in The Times (ie of London)

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com.nyud.net:8080/2002image/netherpopup.gif

I like the "ventilation ducts provide alternate exits" detail. Obviously they were already setting up "Die Hard 5" ...

[NNN0LHI]

15. That one has everything but an ant farm

Some people still swear we are in Afghanistan looking for Osama hiding in his cave.

My goodness.

Don

[Canuckistanian]

17. Jeez, they call that a terrorist lair?

Where are the rocket silos with the fake mountain tops that swing away?

And hydroelectric power from streams? I expected at least a small nuclear power plant. How are they supposed to power up the death rays?

They must be the shame of the evil bad guy network.

[KoKo]

19. Look's like something from an old Comic Book....

:D

[slampoet]

21. I love that "Entrance wide enough for a car" ignorance.

Like someone is just going to pull an SUV right up to it and the US army is going to follow the tire tracks to find them.

GOL! folks are stupid.

[petgoat]

27. "the US army is going to follow the tire tracks to find them."

Actually, that's not far from how it was.

A convoy of 1000 Taliban and al Qaeda vehicles escaped Kabul at night,
headlights blazing. A local businessman said:

"We don't understand how they weren't all killed the night before because they came in a convoy of at least 1,000 cars and trucks. It was a very dark night, but it must have been easy for the American pilots to see the headlights. The main road was jammed from eight in the evening until three in the morning."

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=headlights+kabul&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=Go

The night of November 13 several hundred al Qaeda vehicles drive from Jalalabad to
Tora Bora. http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0304/p01s03-wosc.html

Only 36 US soldiers were assigned to guard Tora Bora, and 1600 al Qaeda fighters, including
Osama, simply walked over the mountains to Pakistan.

[slampoet]

61. To stop a convoy dead in their tracks you just shoot the lead vehicle in a tight area.

Just like the Highway of Death in the Gulf War.


Now it is even more suspicious.

[Gregorian]

43. Wow. I've got to hand it to the Brits. They are creative.

Those are some digs! Quick, let's start another war! I'm convinced now!

[entanglement]

54. They forgot: "General contractors for the high tech cave: Bechtel, Inc"

:rofl:

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NNN0LHI]

16. You don't know whether the map is accurate?

Whoa.

Don

[robcon]

32. You seem to have a need to make decisions for others.

While you're at it, why don't you tell me which threads I should respond to, and which ones I should not. That seems to be your MO.

[WinkyDink]

14. And Bushco is developing "Bunker-busting Nukes" why, again,?

[rucky]

18. They forgot to include the wet bar and sauna. n/t

[chimpymustgo]

23. And the video production studios.

Lots 1, 2 and 3! (Lot 3 is for Fat Osama).

[rucky]

25. "Bring in the Stunt Mullah!" n/t

[live love laugh]

22. The reality is that is Cheney's Bunker.

While we know damned well OBL did not have the army it would take to build the cartoon fantasy above, we know that Cheney did have the resources and the army. I'd bet anything he has one of those.


Projection is the trademark of the RepubliCON party. They do it, they blame others for it.

[flyarm]

26. ARE THERE ANY LINKS TO THESE PICTURES I WOULD LIKE TO SEND THEM OUT TO REMIND PEOPLE

how stupid it all was..and is!!

thanks..

fly

[NNN0LHI]

29. Here are some

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&rls=HPIA,HPIA:2006-34,HPIA:en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=bin+laden%27s+mountain+complex&spell=1

http://images.google.com/images?q=bin+laden%27s+mountain+complex&svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&rls=HPIA,HPIA:2006-34,HPIA:en&start=20&sa=N&ndsp=20

http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=HPIA,HPIA:2006-34,HPIA:en&q=bin+laden%2Bcave&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

[flyarm]

41. thank youuuuuuu!!! eom

[A wise Man]

28. Most people with common sense didn't fall for the "BS"

But when you have created a coup d'etat as these new mafia thugs have done, you'd think that most of America wouldn't have fallened for it. The agenda and the target audience for them was complete. The only ones that did fall for it was the most ignorant and the most stupid uninformed political bigots on earth, namely "REPUBLICAN VOTERS".

[Octafish]

30. Pulitzer winner Steno Judy's gone, but her partner's now working on Iraq warmongering.

From a real journalist:

'NYT' Reporter Who Got Iraqi WMDs Wrong Now Highlights Iran Claims

By Greg Mitchell
Editor & Publisher.com
Published: February 10, 2007 10:30 PM ET Friday updated Saturday

NEW YORK Saturday’s New York Times features an article, posted at the top of its Web site late Friday, that suggests very strongly that Iran is supplying the “deadliest weapon aimed at American troops” in Iraq. The author notes, “Any assertion of an Iranian contribution to attacks on Americans in Iraq is both politically and diplomatically volatile.”

What is the source of this volatile information? Nothing less than “civilian and military officials from a broad range of government agencies.”

Sound pretty convincing? Well, almost all the sources in the story are unnamed. It also may be worth noting that the author is Michael R. Gordon, the same Times reporter who, on his own, or with Judith Miller, wrote some of the key, and badly misleading or downright inaccurate, articles about Iraqi WMDs in the run-up to the 2003 invasion.

Gordon wrote with Miller the paper's most widely criticized -- even by the Times itself -- WMD story of all, the Sept. 8, 2002, “aluminum tubes” story that proved so influential, especially since the administration trumpeted it on TV talk shows.

When the Times eventually carried an editors’ note that admitted some of its Iraq coverage was wrong and/or overblown, it criticized two Miller-Gordon stories, and
noted that the Sept. 8, 2002, article on page one of the newspaper "gave the first detailed account of the aluminum tubes. The article cited unidentified senior administration officials who insisted that the dimensions, specifications and numbers of tubes sought showed that they were intended for a nuclear weapons program."

This, of course, proved bogus.

The Times “mea-culpa” story dryly observed: "The article gave no hint of a debate over the tubes," adding, "The White House did much to increase the impact of The Times article." This was the famous "mushroom cloud" over America article.

Gordon also wrote, following Secretary of State Colin Powell's crucial, and appallingly wrong, speech to the United Nations in 2003 that helped sell the war, that "it will be difficult for skeptics to argue that Washington's case against Iraq is based on groundless suspicions and not intelligence information."

Now, more than four years later, Gordon reveals: “The Bush administration is expected to make public this weekend some of what intelligence agencies regard as an increasing body of evidence pointing to an Iranian link, including information gleaned from Iranians and Iraqis captured in recent American raids on an Iranian office in Erbil and another site in Baghdad.” Gordon's unnamed sources throughout the story are variously described as "Administration officials," "intelligence experts" and "American intelligence."

Today, in contrast to the Times' report, Dafna Linzer in The Washington Post simply notes, "Yesterday, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said serial numbers and markings on some explosives used in Iraq indicate that the material came from Iran, but he offered no evidence."

For some perspective, here is how that "mushroom cloud" Gordon-Miller story of Sept. 8, 2002, opened:

“More than a decade after Saddam Hussein agreed to give up weapons of mass destruction, Iraq has stepped up its quest for nuclear weapons and has embarked on a worldwide hunt for materials to make an atomic bomb, Bush administration officials said today.

“In the last 14 months, Iraq has sought to buy thousands of specially designed aluminum tubes, which American officials believe were intended as components of centrifuges to enrich uranium. American officials said several efforts to arrange the shipment of the aluminum tubes were blocked or intercepted but declined to say, citing the sensitivity of the intelligence, where they came from or how they were stopped.

“The diameter, thickness and other technical specifications of the aluminum tubes had persuaded American intelligence experts that they were meant for Iraq's nuclear program, officials said, and that the latest attempt to ship the material had taken place in recent months.

“The attempted purchases are not the only signs of a renewed Iraqi interest in acquiring nuclear arms. President Hussein has met repeatedly in recent months with Iraq's top nuclear scientists and, according to American intelligence, praised their efforts as part of his campaign against the West.

“Iraq's nuclear program is not Washington's only concern. An Iraqi defector said Mr. Hussein had also heightened his efforts to develop new types of chemical weapons. An Iraqi opposition leader also gave American officials a paper from Iranian intelligence indicating that Mr. Hussein has authorized regional commanders to use chemical and biological weapons to put down any Shiite Muslim resistance that might occur if the United States attacks….

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003544369

No wonder Carlyle Group purchased Editor & Publisher.

[Toasterlad]

31. Where's the Pool With the Sharks With Laser-Beams Attached to Their Heads?

[Harry Monroe]

36. That's "frickin'" laser beams!!!!!

[Toasterlad]

40. Right - My Bad.

[Roads]

33. BEWARE OF SADDAM'S GHOST SHIPS!

they're still there awaiting his command from beyond the grave!

[Robeson]

34. Have you seen his super secret space station?....

...

[Nikki Stone1]

35. This post just makes us look stupid. Why is this not in the 9/11 forum?

:)

[KittyWampus]

37. Your calling this ridiculous shows a profound ignorance of history. And Racism.

those ignorant Muslims are too backwards to actually build conclaves into the mountains.

It's not like they don't have Saudi money to build things. Or carry out terrorism.

And there's a long history of building massive cities into mountains and under the earth.

With ventilation shafts.

Is the diagram you posted an OSP released fiction?

It's possible and even probable.

But a compound like this is not unlikely. And is quite probable as well.

[NNN0LHI]

39. That was great sarcasm

I think? Hope?

Don

[KittyWampus]

42. Excuse me? Sarcasm? Underground cities in Turkey are extensive and elaborate

they go back thousands of years. Google Cappadocia.

Then there are the Catacombs and their uses throughout history right up til recently.

Then there are the Buddhist cave monasteries and cities in China, India and in Afghanistan.

But apparently present day Muslim extremists aren't capable of doing the same, according to you.

Note- as I said, the graphic you posted may very well be as OSP fiction.

But that doesn't mean such a compound does not exist in or around Tora Bora.

I'd say it's pretty fucking likely ones does somewheres along the border of Afganistan and Pakistan.

And to claim that is impossible also illustrates an ignorance of the topography of that region.

[troubleinwinter]

46. OP never said it was "impossible".

The graphic was published 11/29/01. In five and a half years, what has been shown that this has any to it truth whatever?

"that doesn't mean such a compound does not exist". So what says it DOES (other than the pretty drawing)? Five and a half years....

[KittyWampus]

58. because Afghanistan HAS cave complexes back from days of war w/Soviets

is the graphic a silly attempt from OSP? Yes, but the reality underlying it is real.

[LanternWaste]

47. Maybe you could cite a few sources

Maybe you could cite a few sources that cover the recent history of Afghani militia's building huge underground fortresses? Actual books would be preferable, but even a peer-reviews website would suffice.

Because to be honest, I've never heard of anthing like this factually existing in Afghanistan...

[KittyWampus]

56. The Mujahideen used cave complexes during war w/soviets, for instance

Where do you think Al Qaeda got it's start?

Here, from a quick google is a book on Amazon.com about the subject.


Afghanistan Cave Complexes 1979-2004: "Mountain strongholds of the Mujahideen, Taliban & Al Qaeda" (Fortress) (Paperback)
by Mir Bahmanyar (Author), Ian Palmer (Illustrator) "One of the major problems the Soviet Union faced during its invasion into Afghanistan was the difficulty in expelling Mujahideen from the cave and tunnel..." (more)

[NNN0LHI]

66. From the cite you provided

http://www.amazon.com/gp/sitbv3/reader/184176776X/105-8794591-1226035?ie=UTF8&pageID=S00F&v=default

<snip>The multi-layered complex cave systems able to accommodate tucks or even tanks as seen in the media graphics are mere speculation and none have actually been discovered thus far.

[KittyWampus]

70. But every other bit of info from reviews and the book confirm there ARE cave complexes

some more elaborate than others.

And reviews also cite primary sources that confirm.

[Cleita]

51. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to question EVERYTHING instead

of accepting everything presented to you as a fact even here in this forum. I questioned the "dense pine forest" to begin with. I don't remember ever seeing any pictures of those mountains either in Afghanisatan or Pakistan as having any kind of forest. They were quite bare and rocky. Now that set alarms up for me and of course those renditions have pretty much been proven as big crocks of fabrications. I never did go back to find out about the trees because the rest of it proved to be false.

[Wednesdays]

52. What's so funny is not that it isn't possible

Heck, if OBL was as rich as we're led to believe, he could have built an underground fortress on the moon.

What's incredible, IMO, is how the graphic shows us everything--down to the tiniest detail--and presents it as fact...including the exact location of OBL's office! What are the sources of this info? And if it all really is true, OBL should have been dead within minutes after the info was discovered.

And now for the trump card...notice the huge differences between the OP's map and the one from the Times. Which one is lying...and how do you know?

[KittyWampus]

57. frankly, I think the "hotel-like corridors" was added for humor. Karen Hughes is a riot

isn't she? Like how over-the-top absurd can they make this crap while the NYTimes keeps printing it.

However, just cause the graphic is bogus doesn't mean the general concept isn't a reality.

The issue is the OSP making a fictional graphic and passing it off as reality and then also the corporate media unquestioningly printing it.

And I'm sure it was released to time with some downward tick in Junior's ratings.

[Kurovski]

68. ...and you can even see the Garfield poster in OBL's office!

[bemildred]

62. The point is that the NYT, a supposed "news" source, is printing speculation

and propaganda as though it were factual. The NYT did not then, and does not now know what any "secret" cave complexes in those mountains look like or what features they might have. One can tell that easily by observing the fact that the complexes would no longer be "secret", would be then bombed into dust, and we would be provided with extensive coverage of the "successful operation". I suspect if they actually had found one, we would have had better pictures too. Most of that I have seen on the subject was similarly nebulous to the NYT stuff.

It is you that are spreading racist ideas here, nobody else impugned the capabilities of the jihadis. Most of us have a good deal of respect for their capabilities, something the US government could have used a dose of as well.

[KittyWampus]

69. there is no speculation that there are cave complexes. And the rendering provided

is most certainly an artist's speculative rendering. I have no idea if the article that accompanied the drawing noted that fact. Opening poster provided drawing with no context.

[bemildred]

71. There are cave complexes in New Mexico too. So what.

You ought not conflate me saying that the NYT is printing propaganda with me asserting there are no "cave complexes" in Afghanistan. It just isn't the same thing.

[leftofthedial]

38. the complicity of a large segment of the American media

and the complete failure of the rest of it to provide balance

in the rise of the corporate fascist oligarchy and the destruction of the Constitution

is a shame that will never go away

[troubleinwinter]

44. "Hotel-like corridors" ROOM SERVICE!

[NMMNG]

45. Amazing.

They couldn't infiltrate it to destroy it and/or capture the people inside, yet they were able to create this amazingly detailed map of it.

[BornagainDUer]

48. You should see Rummy confirming all of this on Press the Meat!

In his interview Russert asks him if this complex is real and Rummy says: "You bet"!

It's in the documentary the "Power of Nightmares". Google it.

[seemslikeadream]

50. no need to google

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=881321004838285177&q=Power+of+Nightmares&total=338&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4602171665328041876&q=Power+of+Nightmares&total=338&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4729189253956590972&q=Power+of+Nightmares&total=338&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

[PBass]

53. Wow, that's like a JAMES BOND villain's lair. Sharks, with laser beams (NT)

[dweller]

59. the lines to the latrine must be hell...

oh wait, i don't see any bathrooms, just beds (16), kitchen, store room, OFFICE, OBL'S HQ, power supply, and a measly armoury, a pallet of supplies brought in by mules and horses (where are the stables?)...

1,000 feet, 1,000 terrorist... ants are more fearsome.
dp