Why the Army's new hiring standards might make Gen. Wesley Clark rethink his stand on gun control

[derby378]

"I have got 20 some odd guns in the house. I like to hunt. I have grown up with guns all my life, but people who like assault weapons should join the United States Army, we have them." - Wesley Clark

More entering Army with criminal records

Nearly 12 percent of Army recruits who entered basic training this year needed a special waiver for those with criminal records, a dramatic increase over last year and 2 1/2 times the percentage four years ago, according to new Army statistics obtained by the Globe.

With less than three months left in the fiscal year, 11.6 percent of new active-duty and Army Reserve troops in 2007 have received a so-called "moral waiver," up from 7.9 percent in fiscal year 2006, according to figures from the US Army Recruiting Command. In fiscal 2003 and 2004, soldiers granted waivers accounted for 4.6 percent of new recruits; in 2005, it was 6.2 percent.

Army officials acknowledge privately that the increase in moral waivers reflects the difficulty of signing up sufficient numbers of recruits to sustain an increasingly unpopular war in Iraq; the Army fell short of its monthly recruiting goals in May and June.

Since Oct. 1, 2006, when the fiscal year began, more than 8,000 of the roughly 69,000 recruits have been granted waivers for offenses ranging in seriousness from misdemeanors such as vandalism to felonies such as burglary and aggravated assault.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/07/13/more_entering_army_with_criminal_records/

[wildhorses]

1. ~

:popcorn:

[razors edge]

2. Actually,

it may make those who want to remove gun rights rethink their position.

If they were gang bangers and such, they will have no problems getting a gun no matter how many laws you pass now.

You may change your mind about needing one yourself.

[billbuckhead]

3. Actually in nations with strict guns laws there is a substitition effect

Scotland is considered the most violent advanced nation by the UN but the USA still beats the Scots by by multiples in murder because of the incredibly easy access to guns in America. Yes, gangs in Glascow are reduced to knives.

BTW, sending delinquent young people to the army is as old as armies themselves. Maybe the real message is for the black rifle worshippers is to step up to the plate, live what they believe and go to Iraq or Washington D.C., anything besides playing with their guns in their basements and whining about what actual war heros like Wes Clark, John Kerry, John McCain and Charlie Rangel think of them.

[Sanctified]

4. What Percentage of Crimes are Commited with Black Rifles?

Just asking, I don't have the stats on that.

[derby378]

5. Percentages? Don't have those on-hand, but this might help

Jeffrey A. Roth and Christopher S. Koper of the National Institute of Justice (NIJ), which is the "R&D" arm of the United States Department of Justice, published a report in 1999 titled Impacts of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban: 1994-1996 that examined what effects the ban had on violent crime over a two-year period since the ban went into effect.

One interesting little fact reported in the 1999 NIJ report dealt with gun traces, which are used by the BATF to track usage of particular guns in crime. Roth and Koper compiled a list of BATF gun traces from 1993 that monitored use of the 19 types of semi-automatic firearms explicitly prohibited by the 1994 ban. Four of the firearm types that wound up on the crime bill's verboten list were used so infrequently during gun crimes in 1993 that one must wonder why they were even included in the ban to begin with.

Out of a total of 3,393 BATF traces in 1993 for the weapons banned in the upcoming crime bill, there were 1,202 traces for Intratec weapons (TEC-9, TEC-DC9, and TEC-22), 878 traces for SWD weapons (MAC-10, etc.), 581 traces for Colt AR-15s, 281 for Uzis, 175 for Intratec copycats, 99 for AR-15 copycats, 87 for AK-47s, and 64 for revolving cylinder shotguns like the Street Sweeper. In addition, there were only 12 traces for Galil rifles, 9 for Fabrique Nationale weapons, 4 for Steyr AUG rifles (importation into the US banned in 1989), and only one single trace for a Beretta AR-70 rifle for the entire year of 1993.

...

Furthermore, a July 1995 report by the USDoJ Bureau of Justice Statistics titled Guns Used in Crime helped to shed more light upon the actual role of semi-automatics in the commission of violent crime. Although there were 3,393 traces of "assault weapons" for 1993, those firearms represented only 8% of the total number of firearms used in violent crime for the entire year.

The BJS report also presented a list of the ten firearms most heavily traced by the BATF in 1994. Number one on the list was the Lorcin P25, a "Saturday Night Special" pistol from one of the most notorious gun manufacturers in American history. The only non-pistol firearm to make it onto the list was the 12-gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun. Not a single "assault weapon" made it onto the list.

http://www.a2dems.net/top10myths.htm

[billbuckhead]

6. How many are commited with nuclear weapons or machine guns?

Why give the opportunity for more powerful weapons to be on the loose? What's the utility for society? None really, just selfishness by the gun lobby and it's minions. The black rifle crowd are forcing police to have to have more powerful weapons and scaring the general public into upgrading. Gun manufacturers win by selling more profitable weapons to cops, crooks, weirdos, "gun enthusiasts" and a terrorized public .

[derby378]

7. Sounds like a standard set of talking points to me...

I'll settle for the Constitution instead, thank you.

[billbuckhead]

10. Who's version of the Constitition, the one that want states to have regulated militias?

or the one that says any nut can have any gun?

[Sanctified]

13. Or the one that reads.

A well regulated militia,

being necessary to the security of a free State,

the right of the people to keep and bare Arms, shall not be infringed.

[derby378]

16. BINGO!

Sometimes, all that's needed is to actually go back and read the Constution instead of trying to hide behind the faulty legal precedent du jour. If I remember correctly, Plessy v. Ferguson was once considered Constitutionally sound, too.

[NoPasaran]

17. "The right of the people to keep and bare Arms, shall not be infringed"

Isn't that the clause that establishes Casual Fridays?
:shrug:

[Sanctified]

8. Last crime that was commited with a legaly owned

Machine Gun was in the 1950s, last crime that was committed with a legally owned Nuclear Weapon was in the 1940s. First one was committed by a state employee and the second by a federal. I don't think the problem is with private ownership, and the fact that those who historically commit the crimes are members of the government does not exactly make me sleep easier at night.

Go ahead and pass all the maybe, possibly, could be crime laws while ignoring the facts if it makes you feel better.

[billbuckhead]

11. Machine gun law is a perfect example how effective gun laws can be if enforced

The USA has the worst gun crime rate, murder rate and amount of people in prison per capita of all a advanced nations. I lay this at the foot of the American gun lobby and it's minions.

[Sanctified]

12. There are more than 10,000 legally owned automatic rifles in the hands of private citizens in th US.

Only 1 has been used in a crime since the 1950s and again was used by a state employee

[billbuckhead]

9. HOW MANY JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDES ARE THERE PER YEAR? Under 200?

It's always tough arguing numbers with gun "enthusiasts". They don't seem to undetstand them. You see they think 200 is a huge number when it justifies their position but then 3000 is a small number when that justifies their position. Last year's 20 year low of 46 homicides in the UK is somehow less preferable to the over 100,000 shooting victims per year in the USA.

[Sanctified]

14. Quoting victims to homicides is apple to oranges.

n/t

[billbuckhead]

18. And how many justifiable homicides are there?

[razors edge]

25. First of all

your term "enthusiast" is bullshit, if you stand for a woman's right to chose are you now an abortion enthusiast?

You will no sooner disarm criminals than stop back alley abortions.

Do you not understand that regulations are of no concern of those who commit felonies?

[beevul]

15. Your words convey dishonesty of the worst kind, Bill.

"Why give the opportunity for more powerful weapons to be on the loose?"

More powerful than what? You know damned well that semi automatic "black rifles" are less powerful than a semi-automatic 30.06...you don't want those banned too do you? (A 30.06 semi-automatic is a deer rifle in laymans terms for those reading). You choose the path of dishonesty - that of deliberate deception disinformation and mischaracterization. Many times it has been shown that so called "black rifles" use a cartridge no more powerful to less powerful than the great majority of deer rifles. Its been said enough times that there could be no possible excuse or explanation for your words except deliberate dishonesty. Way to show your spots, Bill.


"What's the utility for society? None really, just selfishness by the gun lobby and it's minions."

Thats your assertion...err unsupported unsubstantiated assertion. Its up to you to show that its more than just utter hogwash. Please do so IF you can. Oh, and its not up to YOU to decide what a things "utility" for society is.

"The black rifle crowd are forcing police to have to have more powerful weapons and scaring the general public into upgrading. Gun manufacturers win by selling more profitable weapons to cops, crooks, weirdos, "gun enthusiasts" and a terrorized public ."

The fridley (or was it coon rapids) police in MN have been carrying FULLY AUTOMATIC MP-5 machineguns in their cars since the mid-90's (unless they have stopped carrying them) - BEFORE there was the "black rifle crowd" like the term refers to in this day and age. That was during the original assault weapons ban. I talked to a patrolman for a good hour about it, and saw the rifle first hand. So that whole point you tried to make was just bullshit.


In a nutshell, your entire statement and argument have been deconstructed. Perhaps you should try something new. Maybe try discussing the same black rifles using FACTS - if you can.

[billbuckhead]

19. if these fake assault rifles aren't more dangerous, why do you want them?

Other than some play army fantasy thing that these fake assault rifles look like the real thing which leads back to the Wes Clark quote.

[razors edge]

22. Because the Marines instructed me

how to use the AR properly and it works when it's supposed to. If it were a piece of crap that didn't shoot straight or function properly, I wouldn't have bought it. I don't buy crappy knock off, or even used equipment.

It is as much a collection as a hobby. I collect stamps too, gold plated replicas of United States Stamps from the Postal Commemorative Society. I have about five thousand bucks worth of them, since stamps can be used to get an anthrax laced letter through the mail that the FBI is unable to trace back to the sender, maybe they should be confiscated first don't you think, or at least a background check at the Post Office?

Since the National Guard is off to secure other interests, perhaps us old timers with the proper training on how to use these tools, training on the rules of engagement, training on first aid and protection of civilians in a crisis, become by default the closest thing you have to a state militia, not that I want or would readily take up the job.

When my friends get together to compare and fire, we are not thinking of any type of imaginary confrontational situation as you have described, perhaps it's really your fantasy that is delusional here.

We teach Boy Scouts gun safety, familiarize them with the dangers in a first hand way that no amount of lecturing or regulation can get across, so that they are more likely to not grab a gun from their friend's fathers collection, assume it safe and do the unthinkable in an act of play.

Get a grip, the genie is out of the bottle and that bottle is destroyed. You either master it or live in fear of it, the choice is yours my friend.

We have 60 times the population of Scotland, how do your numbers looks in adjustment for that?

[beevul]

24. I don't want them.

Yeah. Thats right. I don't own one and I have no interest in owning one. But I would defend the right to own them just the same. And shine a light on someone deliberately mischaracterizing them as something they are not, too.

You just don't get it.


"if these fake assault rifles aren't more dangerous, why do you want them?"

Again, more dangerous than what? Thats just a variation along the same line as what you unsuccessfully tried to say in calling them "more powerful" - more "chicken little". When will you get it through your head that they're just semi-automatic rifles?

[benEzra]

32. Reliability, light recoil, good ergonomics, accuracy, versatility, and economy.

Same criteria I'd use for any other gun. Which is why my primary guns are a S&W Ladysmith and a SAR-1 carbine.

You apparently can't get your head around the fact that small-caliber, soft-recoiling civilian rifles with good ergonomics might possibly be of interest on their own merits...


----------------
Why people pushing rifle bans are stuck in the 1970's.

Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What? (written in 2004, largely vindicated in 2006, IMO). Background on the gun issue for non-gunnies, i.e. "Why Hunting Is Irrelevant to the Gun Issue."

[Posteritatis]

23. I think I'm missing a term here

When you guys say "black rifles," are you referring to black-market weapons, or something else?

[derby378]

26. "Black rifle" refers to military/tactical rifles such as the AR15, AK47, and FN-FAL families

They're called "black rifles" because Eugene Stoner, the man who designed the AR15, was a one-time aircraft engineer who had plenty of experience with lightweight, high-impact polymers for use in aircraft. One of those plastics, which happened to be black in color, turned out to be perfect for use in buttstocks and handguards, so Stoner used it in the AR15 - it was lighter and more durable than traditional wood stocks. As a result, almost all tactical rifles now offer polymer grips and stocks.

[Posteritatis]

29. Ah! Thanks. (nt)

[benEzra]

33. I'd add that we're talking about non-automatic civilian variants...

not actual military automatic weapons.


"The World's Most Versatile Rifle" (from Outdoor Life, August 2006)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x145426

FWIW, here's mine:


benEzra's "black rifle"

That's a civilian (non-automatic) SAR-1 in 7.62x39mm; my main target, competition, and all-around utility rifle, identical in every way except appearance to a Ruger Mini Thirty deer rifle.

[TheBaldyMan]

34. actually it's incredibly easy to get a military spec AK in Europe illegally.

believe it or not, culturally Britons don't fetish-ise firearms as you do in the states.

[dysfunctional press]

20. the linked article doesn't even MENTION wesley clark...?

i don't get it.

what does an article about more people entering the army with criminal records have to do with ANYONE'S stance on gun control???

[derby378]

27. It's like this...

The 1994 gun ban was touted as keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and gangsters - at least on paper. But now the government is allowing those same criminals and gangsters to gain access to the full-auto versions of these weapons even as many gun-control activists still seek to deny the semi-auto versions to law-abiding Americans.

[dysfunctional press]

30. So...?

i'm still not seeing your point...do you have one?

yes, they're allowing criminals access to full-auto versions- because they are in the ARMY. :eyes:

[Paladin]

21. Golly....If Wesley Clark Changes His Gun Control Views......

....you Gun Dungeon "Democrats" won't be able to compare him to Heinrich Himmler, as has been done before on several occasions.

Now that would be a fucking tragedy, wouldn't it?

[derby378]

28. So, uh, you WANT Gungeon folks to compare Gen. Clark to Himmler?

Get your wish list for the party straight. For the record, however, I never did.

[davsand]

31. I'm not seeing the connection here. How do enlistment stats correlate to Clark's gun views?

Maybe I'm just obtuse, but I am just not seeing what any of this has to do with Clark's comments about assault weapons. I'm trying to work it through, and I can't decide if I think you are worried about arming criminals in a military setting or if you are worried about the state of our military forces' morality. In any case, Clarks' views on assault weapons don't apply to either discussion.

Oh wait--I GET it now--you just wanted to screw with Clark some more.

That primary is LONG over and as far as I'm aware, General Clark hasn't announced he's involved in the current one.

Gawd. Why not beat up on Sharpton or Braun while you are at it--like the General, they ran last time and haven't announced yet.



Laura

[BlooInBloo]

36. I'm just guessing, but my post #35 might clarify the OPs thinking for you.

[BlooInBloo]

35. Uncle Sam wants YOU to be ready to meet the challenges of being a criminal in the 21st century!

[derby378]

37. In the words of Han Solo...

"Ooooooh, laugh it up, fuzzball..."

:rofl: