Duke University has its first dish of crow!

[marshall]

Statement by Duke President Richard H. Brodhead on Disbarment of Durham DA Mike Nifong

Saturday, June 16, 2007


http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2007/06/disbar_statement.html


Finally a statement of regret for hanging the team out to twist in the wind. Now I wonder if they are going to turn on the 88 professors and leave them to cover their own behinds.

[Horse with no Name]

1. They are going to have to do something

It can't go unpunished.

[Sadie4629]

2. Too little too late, in my opinion

Brodhead is blaming the DA for the whole thing. He was the one who made inflammatory statements to the press, fired the coach, cancelled the remainder of their season. Has he taken responsibility for the assumptions he made? Has he personally apologized to the three young men?

[Solo_in_MD]

3. The Gang of 88 is going to get owned for what they did and rightly so

Finally a statement of regret for hanging the team out to twist in the wind. Now I wonder if they are going to turn on the 88 professors and leave them to cover their own behinds.

The gang of 88 acted outside their official positions so the University can not shield them from the avalanche of lawsuits that are coming. Some will turn on the others so they get a free pass. Expect some profs to resign and pay damages over this.

[aikoaiko]

15. Here's a reminder of the 88's ad.

For an html version of the 88s ad. http://listening.nfshost.com/listening.htm

Funny thing, when you click on the link (http://www.duke.edu/web/africanameric/listening.pdf) to see the PDF file to see who signed on to this document one gets:





Ironically, 88 is code for neo-nazi.

[LisaL]

213. Nothing is going to happen to the 88.

By the way Duke just settled with the three accused to prevent further litigation.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

4. I hope the academic lynching mob gets their due,

If participation in a ideologically driven jihad against their students, that included individual harassment in class isn't grounds for refusing tenure / withdrawal of tenure I don't know what is.

While I have no doubt that many of the players are utter and complete abercrombie assholes, what happened here was unbelievable.

A friend I went to school with got railroaded by a townie prosecutor on some serious charges. They would throw the book at as many students as possible when election time came for everything from underaged drinking to sodomy to theft of electricity for using a plug in a public parking lot at a tailgate. The judge threw out the charges, but thanks to Google he still has a cloud over his head.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

7. I am sure an apology would be considered,

being subservient to the "racist hetero-patriarchy" of which I am apprently a charter member.

[hlthe2b]

5. Question: I tuned out on all but the most basic details long ago....

assuming (as was apparently the case) that the truth was buried in the mass of hysteria, somewhere, but there was no way I was going to be able to sort it out.

So, what did the 88 professors say and do?

[marshall]

11. It's somewhat arguable what their intent was

They didn't come out and say the boys did it, but at a time when they probably should have said something like "innocent until proven guilty" or something like that, the professors got together and endorsed a public statement that talked about the racial tension on campus and, some would argue, by implication says the boys did it.

I believe there have already been some cases with uncharged lacrosse players who were given unjustified poor grades due to their association with the case.

These families are well off, but they are no rich in the Kennedyesque sense. They deserve to at least recoup their losses and get paid for the misery. I guess on top of the lawsuits there will also be money rolling in for book deals and movie deals. I'm just waiting for Hollywood to start fighting over who will play who.

[fishwax]

16. I don't think the ad implies that the boys were guilty

http://listening.nfshost.com/listening.htm

I don't think there's any excuse for the alleged discrimination against players, though.

[marshall]

17. It has to be understood in context of the other posting

They say: "To the students speaking individually and to the protestors making collective noise, thank you for not waiting and for making yourselves heard."

They are referring to the 'Wanted Poster' --http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/lacrosse/2006-03-29-duke-fallout_x.htm --that was posted and distributed alongside the "88" poster. This other poster featured every lacrosse player, not just the three charged, and was widely criticized.

The 88 faculty not only let the lacrosse team down, they let the student body down by jumping on the bandwagon when they should have shown leadership. Students go to college in part to learn how to act like responsible citizens by watching the example set by the faculty.

[fishwax]

18. that's not what they've said about the ad

I haven't followed closely, but I've never seen anything (other than speculation) that shows their reference to collective noise was referring to the wanted poster. And even if it was referring to, among other things, that poster, I still don't see the ad as in any way saying that the lacrosse students are guilty. The ad speaks to turbulent issues that really do exist and which this incident brought to the fore. The fact that the allegations were false doesn't mean that those issues don't really exist.

Edited to add the professors' "open letter to the duke community" about the ad: http://www.concerneddukefaculty.org/

[marshall]

19. That will be the crux of their defense argument

They will have to distance themselves from the student ad which came out the day before their own ad, and to which they are arguably referring. In other words, everybody will be pointing the finger at somebody else.

[Solo_in_MD]

23. A smart lawyer will get some to turn against the others and support the flurry of suits that are

coming. I expect to see resignations and turnover on the Duke staff.

[robcon]

8. He seems to regret the consternation, not his actions.

He fired the lacrosse coach for no reason, and joined in the 'group-guilt' thinking that caused so much pain in Durham.

[DURHAM D]

9. I think it is important to remember that Duke University

was the owner (landlord) for the two group homes that were filled with their young men in a quiet neighborhood (Trinity Park) and that these students have plagued the area for years. Duke did nothing (or very little) to remedy the poor behavior and bad feelings caused by their own tenants/students.

The home owners were angry and the rest of the community was/is tired of Duke's arrogance when it comes to relationships with the town. Many locals (black and white) refer to Durham as the plantation with Duke being the master.

That was the environment in which Nifong found himself running for election. But, shame on him for what he did. We all know that the university, the team, the young men, the families, etc. have all been hurt by what Nifong did. However, the town is also a big loser.

[mediawatch]

10. I am waiting for the woman who accused these guys

of rape to start showing up on talk shows and so on. Maybe even a book deal.

I do feel bad for her as I think she is a bit unstable and glad she will not get charged with anything. For some reason I see a bit of fame (whether negative or positive) coming her way. With that comes $$$$$

[marshall]

13. People like her make false charges every day

The difference is, there isn't a dishonest DA ready to ride them. She was angry and confused and strung out and afraid of charges she was facing. An honest DA would have investigated this case and then passed on it.

So I don't really blame her anymore than all those other people who make false charges. It's not her fault tht this turned into a media frenzy.

[Solo_in_MD]

22. Concur, she was pretty jacked up at the time, and was easily lead

Nifong overrode police procedure and legal ethics and used a non-case to secure reelection. He should face some serious sanctions, but other than disbarment, no additional punishment is looming. He has immunity for his actions

[LisaL]

28. There have been some women who went to jail over false

accusations of rape. I can name a few.

[jberryhill]

48. It's not worth it

Because of her mental history (which Nifong would have known as well).

[LisaL]

54. I've read about a bi-polar woman who went to jail over false

accusations of rape.

[jberryhill]

60. That doesn't make it right

She did what she did to get out of the probation violation that she would have faced if she'd gone into detox. However, Nifong knew what he was dealing with here, so if she gets the probation violation, that's enough.

[LisaL]

64. People go in jail for probation violations. Just ask Paris Hilton.

By the way, whatever gives you an idea Mangum would have violated her probation (if she even was on probation at the time?). Mangum was not driving the car on March 14th.

[jberryhill]

133. She was picked up on a drunk & disorderly and taken to detox /nt

Her probation wasn't for just a DUI. The entire point of Mangum making the claim here was to avoid being checked into detox for being drunk in public.

[LisaL]

189. I looked it up. The incident with a taxi was in 2002.

She was put on probation for two years.
On March 13, 2006, her probation would have been over.

[jberryhill]

222. Ah, mixed the two up...

It was the other stripper who was excused on a probie to get her cooperation.

Right.

Being checked in at Durham Access would have been the second involuntary committment for Mangum:

http://www.essence.com/essence/lifestyle/takeastand/0,16109,1188001,00.html

The mother of the alleged victim told ESSENCE magazine that her daughter did go away to a hospital in Raleigh, North Carolina, for about a week last year, where she was treated for a “nervous breakdown.”

[blondeatlast]

61. Deflecting the argument to her role just diminishes the hideous arrogancy and corruption of Nifong.

You have it completecly right.

[AngryOldDem]

117. No, Nifong used her just as much as he used the kids

As you noted in another thread, he saw this as a perfect opportunity to play on just about every racial and gender stereotype, thinking nobody would pay attention and just pile on.

Why he kept it up after the DNA came back as being proof that these guys were innocent is a question for the ages. But once you're stuck in deep shit, there's no easy way to back out, I guess.

[demgurl]

150. As a former rape victim, I resent this line of thinking.

Before the truth came out I posted defending both sides. I stated that if she was lying that this now will make it harder for women who were really raped to come come forward. I also stated that if the team did what they were accused of then the book should be thrown at them but until it is proven we should not act in haste saying they are guilty.

Both sides told contradictory stories and we all knew that one side had to be lying. Instead of waiting for the eventual outcome, most of us sat in judgment of one side or the other. This type of fervor is what drives people like Nifong. To be sure, what Nifong did is inexcusable. This does not let the woman off the hook.

When the 'victim' lied, she did so much more than she may have realized. Nifong may have encouraged her but she could have retracted her statement the next day...or at any time for that matter. Do you know one of the effects of this case? I always secretly believed I would be blamed as the rape victim and this is why I did not go to the police the first time I was raped. My inner suspicions were confirmed when I saw the threads here at DU. Everything confirmed that I would be looked at, automatically, as if I was lying. People would doubt me and I would be made to feel as if I were to blame. This case confirmed I did the right thing when I was raped and that I would do the exact same thing again.

This woman has single handedly set back rape victims and their willingness to come forward and put rapists in jail.

What this woman did was an affront to our justice system. I do not want her in jail. No, instead I would like her to serve TEN years of probation doing community service at rape shelters. I want her to see what true victims go through and how they are scared to come forward because of people like her. She needs to see the hell they go through and then do penance for her part in the whole fiasco.

If people can not understand the underlying damage that has been done then I can not explain it here. Let us not forget that Nifong could never have placed any charges in the first place with this woman. Without her nothing else would have followed.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

210. Very eye opening post.

I hadn't thought of it that way.

[jberryhill]

223. I don't think she should be punished...

...she does not seem entirely mentally stable.

She was also not "automatically" discredited.

It's just really tough for a violent crime to happen in a house with 40-odd people in it, all of whom are accused of guilt, and not have one of them come forward with the "truth" of who did it in order to save his own hide.

You can bet that each of them who consulted an attorney, had that attorney say, "Look, if you didn't do it, then you should identify who did." Because that is precisely what an attorney would have told each and every one of them. That was just one of a steady stream of "huh?" observations about this case.

A typical case involves whether there was, or was not, consent. A lot of the time, the fact of physical contact is not disputed, which is why, as was repeatedly said in this case "most cases do not involved DNA evidence". That's because DNA evidence is irrelevant to whether there was consent. When you have a he-said/she-said situation like that, then yes, people are going to take one side or the other, and I can see where that is intimidating and/or involves poor assessments of credibility.

But here, there was a denial of any physical contact, and the evidence bore that out. There was no "there" there.

[demgurl]

224. IF she is mentally unstable....

then that would be for a court appointed psychiatrist to examine her and say she is beyond any capabilities to distinguish right and wrong and that she then needs to be put in a mental institution for treatment and rehabilitation back into society. If she is so mentally damaged that she can not be held responsible for her own fraudulent actions then she need not be out in society lest she do it again.

Unless you have actually been raped then you have no idea what it does to a person. I could not use the term 'rape' until years later. My ordeal was so horrific that even though I knew the actions of the rapist, I actually totally blocked out what he and others at the scene looked like. I saw someone a few days later, a person I had met that night and she is the one who drove me to and from the place that the rape happened and I did not even know who she was. My mind would not let me remember who all was there especially since, I guess, that chick did not want to drive me back to my house until she socialized a bit more. And, yes, she did know what happened since I came to her crying.

That rape broke up many of my relationships because I could not handle them. One boyfriend pushed for me to get help and so I broke up with him. The friends that introduced me to the chick who drove me got axed as well.

The mental torture of not being able to go to the cops because they may blame me instead of getting the criminal did not sit well with me.

She did not need to be "automatically discredited" in order for her to be wrong or to be punished. You can not be in a fair system and have someone automatically discredited at the scene of a crime. There needs to be investigations into the allegations to make sure the outcome is fair on either side. What she did set in motion people being fired (*the coach of the Lacrosse team), all of the boy's lives were effected and most had to drop out. And a lot of tax payer dollars went into the investigation when real crimes could have been investigated.

Perhaps you are getting the 'rape victim' mixed in with the Nifong case and that is why you feel she should not be punished. The Nifong thing was a totally different incident and crime. Nifong was out to get the Duke team no matter what the cost. This just was the 'pearl harbor type event' he needed in order to do it. What he did was wrong but that is not what most people are accusing the 'rape victim' of. Nifong went after the Duke people knowing there was made up evidence. I saw him in his news conferences and how he would say this and that about the evidence against the Duke players. That is prosecutorial misconduct and more. He deserved what he has so far and may get more just desserts.

The woman should not, in any way, be confused with committing the same crimes for she was not in a position to do so. She was in a position to make up a crime, call in the police and swear by her statement of what they allegedly did. She made a false police report and for that she needs to be held accountable. I am not saying they should fry her or put her under the jail. I am saying that if you are right then she needs help desperately. You can not commit crimes when you are not mentally stable and then be allowed to stay in out in the public. If she is that mentally unstable then perhaps she still believes it happened and she will go out and try to kill the Duke players for having 'raped' her. Or maybe she will let that one go but the next time she 'hallucinates' a rape she will kill that person since she did not get justice through the legal system this time.

If she is deemed mentally stable then I think you will agree that she must pay for the hideous thing she did. Heck, I did not even say she should do jail time, just a very extended program helping rape victims so she will understand the damage she has done.

I am not the only person, who was raped, who has spoken up and said the effects of this case are they will never go to the police. I have written about this case before and others have come forth with me saying they would never put themselves out there to be ridiculed and made to feel responsible for what someone else did. Every time someone like this ruins an innocent person's life, the consequences are more far reaching than anyone even realizes. Even former rape victims are effected. Next time I will be very careful to not be so willing to believe someone when they say they are raped. Each time something like this happens our perceptions change bit by bit whether we are aware of it or not.

[OzarkDem]

50. I'm waiting for other women victims

to begin telling their stories. These kids may have gotten off the hook in this case, but there are likely other women they've victimized who aren't so easily frightened.

[LisaL]

55. I have a feeling you really don't have a clue as to what the story

actually is. What do you mean by women who aren't so easily frightened?
How on Earth that even remotely applies in this case?

[OzarkDem]

71. Perhaps you are the one

who needs to become enlightened.

Drunken frat boys and jocks have been victimizing women and other students on college campuses for generations. Their crimes against women are usually ignored or covered up by the administration because winning sports teams are valued by schools and they're willing to tolerate the behavior.

Local police and prosecutors also overlook these crimes when asked to by administrators. Nifong decided to challenge them and lost. We still don't know all the facts of this case and probably never will. But its noteworthy and exceptional because it was one time when someone challenged this kind of crime. That's rare. But hopefully other women (and their parents) will stand up to these kinds of bullies and insist on punishment. Who knows, maybe the next girl that gets attacked will have rich parents willing to spend some money and take them to court.

If you are naive enough to think this doesn't happen, then you've either never attended college or been a perp yourself.

[LisaL]

80. I assure you I have never been a perp.

I actually find it hilarious how many things you have accused me of.

[knight_of_the_star]

214. I am attending college now

And just to let you know, my gf is an officer in her sorority's chapter and for the past semester I shared my dorm with two frat boys who were part of the same frat. Last time I checked, all of what you just said is a huge distortion to say the least as well as a demonstration that you don't seem to know what you are talking about.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

208. Ignore it.

That kind of stupidity isn't worth responding to.

[mondo joe]

86. Which woman did you think was "easily frightened" in this case?

Don't bother with the facts of the case much, huh?

[CTyankee]

12. I bet he misses Yale, where he was a Dean

If I were him I'd deliver a crisp, but honest, apology to the three students and to Duke. He was in a tricky position, to be sure, but I hope this is a lesson to other universities to make sure they know what they are talking about when something like this arises.

[Solo_in_MD]

21. I think this will be the begining of his downfall, and well deserved it will be

[CTyankee]

177. Yep, it certainly calls into question his judgment.

We could smell a rat when we found out that the DNA didn't match the accused and, before that, there was those time stamped ATM receipts and the cabbie's backing the students up.

[SoDesuKa]

14. On the Other Hand . . .

There actually is a dissenting viewpoint from the general opinion that justice is served by disbarring Mike Nifong:

The racist American Southern establishment has laid down the law in North Carolina and has made it abundantly clear that Southern white dominance isn’t something to be trifled with. The long lynching process of Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong has begun by forcing him to resign and then disbarring him. More punishment is to come. Reading the blogs and the American press, it appears that there is universal approval of the basic American principle that the legal system is there only to oppress, and never to help, niggers.

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/

[Solo_in_MD]

20. xymphora is far from credible...

[northzax]

24. yeah, right

crackpot. Even Nifong said he fucked up and should be disbarred. If I were to make a racial arguement here, I would celebrate justice and say "now we have a model for how to handle all the other cases where poor, often minority, young men are railroaded into pleas and trials by ruthless prosecutors. We celebrate Nifong's willingness to accept blame for crossing the line and we look forward to an America where these standards are held to everyone"

Nifong screwed up by cheating against affluent defendants with the resources to fight back. if the players had been poor (white or black) and Nifong had done the same things, they would be in jail. we need to remember that.

and they lost me here: Just think of the message being sent to prosecutors across the American South. If you take on a case with a black complainant, and white, privileged defendants, no matter what you feel about the credibility of the complainant, and no matter what you feel, as a professional prosecutor, of your duty to stand up for the rights of the oppressed, your career, and your life, will be ruined. It seems to me that underprivileged black people have the right not to have crimes committed against them by white elites, but the people who run the ‘justice’ system in the American South don’t agree. As time goes on, not much has changed.

this is someone who admits to no knowledge of the US legal system, and expresses sympathy that Conrad Black can't 'ruthlessly' cross-examine witnesses (the ones I have seen have been pretty ruthless, I must say) and says 'we will never know the truth, because there is no trial" well we know the truth that Nifong admitted to breaking the rules in his prosecution. Guess this Canadian doesn't know much about the South, huh?

[LisaL]

26. Evidence is needed to take someone on trial.

And in fact evidence here, as examined by AG, showed the accused were innocent of the charges.

[LisaL]

25. Those professors aren't going anywhere, especially if they are

tenured.

[Solo_in_MD]

27. Until the lawsuits start

"admit your culpability, apologize, and resign your position or we will sue you into poverty". Seems a pretty good place for the plaintiff's lawyer to start.

This could also be the impetus needed to overturn tenure at Duke.

[LisaL]

29. I don't think they are going anywhere, lawsuit or no lawsuit.

[Solo_in_MD]

31. Some of the parents have the resources to break your typical college professor

do that to one or two and many others will fall in line. Given the choice of recanting and possibly resigning vs impoverishment of them and their families, the choice is pretty clear.

[LisaL]

32. What would they be sued over?

[Solo_in_MD]

33. Lets start with defamation, libel, and slander

There was much more going on at Duke than just the ad. Some of the profs were not allowing LAX players to attend their classes and other actions were taken. They are wide open...the legal bills alone should be threat enough to start things moving

[yardwork]

37. Do you have any evidence for that?

I wasn't on campus this past year, but the ads I've seen and the comments made by Duke faculty did not seem unreasonable to me at the time. For many of us associated with Duke and Durham, these charges - horrific as they were - were believable. The Duke faculty - and many students and residents of the area - were speaking out about bad behavior on the part of some Duke students that has been going on for a very long time.

One professor noted that he had played lacrosse himself, and was a huge fan of the lacrosse team. However, he was very disappointed that the lacrosse coach persisted in scheduling mandatory practices during his classes! He had talked this over with the lacrosse coach several times, but to no avail. I doubt that will show up in any of the many books being written on this case.

Will the books discuss how lacrosse players had been urinating on their neighbors' houses during drunken parties for year? Screaming matches between drunken students and their equally drunken parents at 2 am? Naked girls running down the street away from Duke party houses?

None of us knew that Nifong was simply making all this up from practically nothing. I think that the Duke faculty are being unfairly maligned now.

[Solo_in_MD]

38. Mostly media reports and other discussion that were happening at the time

Also got some gouge from a friend who shall remain nameless who is tenure track at Duke currently. Being in the technical field, he managed to duck a lot of the nonsense that was happening at the time. His comment was that there were a axes being ground at the time and payback for past wrongs (real or imagined) being taken.

I imagine that several of the most vocal profs will leave and peace will be restored, at least on the surface. The President looks to be on the way to being gone too, but its a bit early yet. Campus politics never cease to amaze me.

[yardwork]

40. Well, as your friend noted, there was a lot of background.

The faculty did not speak as a bloc, despite the way the media likes to portray things. Some faculty may have overreacted, but others were very careful to distinguish between this case and the long-time, deep problems in the campus culture.

[Solo_in_MD]

42. I perceived it as being a bloc within the faculty who were going over the top

The scariest part for be was the behavior of the administration who really let the students swing in the wind.

[yardwork]

44. I watched it unfold right here in town, day by day, and it didn't look that way to me.

The university was severely criticized at first for underreacting. You have to understand - nobody thought at the time that the DA was simply making all this up. Nobody knew anything about the accuser - her mental issues, her alcohol and drug issues, her past history.

I've lived in this area for decades. Some Duke students had been making serious pests of themselves in that particular off-campus neighborhood for years, and the university had ignored it. I know people who had their gardens vomited into, houses peed on, witnessed really ugly scenes in the middle of the night. There is a pervasively sexist and racist attitude among some of the students on that campus, and the lacrosse team epitomized that attitude.

It really is Nifong's fault. When he held those press conferences and said those things - indicating that he had solid proof that these Duke students had gang-raped a young woman - the university had to act. I don't blame the faculty for what they said. I don't blame the university for its reaction.

Nifong told a lot of blatant lies about this case from day one.

[LisaL]

45. It's very easy to blame it all on Nifong.

No doubt many people are going to try.

[yardwork]

46. The State Bar blames it all on Nifong.

Read their report.

[LisaL]

47. I've read their report, but I have a feeling they blame it all on

Nifong because Nifong was the one on trial.
They were not considering any other issues.

[LisaL]

43. Do these faculty know about presumption of innocence? Due

process?
Duke has a law school, doesn't it?

[11 Bravo]

53. Yes, Duke Law gave us that world renowned lawyer Richard M. Nixon.

[OzarkDem]

52. Their money would be better spent

in getting their kids some counseling. Those kids have major behavior problems that are only likely to get worse as they get older. They may have dodged trouble this time around, but these parents are likely to be paying legal bills for many years to come unless they get straightened out.

[qdemn7]

34. I sure as hell

Hope they sue some of the "88" into the poorhouse.

[Retired AF Dem]

30. Tenure dont mean squat

If future Duke students decide to go somewhere else.

[OzarkDem]

51. Nor should they

The team's behavior was disgusting and difficult for anyone to defend. Many will find it hard to defend them once the civil trials start and facts about their behavior and past problems come to light.

[Mike Daniels]

153. What civil trial?

The stripper sure as hell doesn't have the resources or evidence to file charges and I've yet to hear anyone (even Jackson and Sharpton who were so quick to pile on initially) indicate that a civil case was being filed on behalf of this woman.

Just once, just post whatever alternative site you're getting this information from because it sure isn't coming from planet Earth.

[ComerPerro]

35. The satisfaction that some people take over the dropping of charges makes me want to puke

After all, how do we really know justice was served? Best case scenario: the falsely accused will eventually see justice, as long as they are rich enough to pay the court costs and all related expenses. Cause lets face it: someone from a less fortunate background would be in jail for this, right now, rotting away for a long time.

That's the best case summary of what took place.

The accused lacrosse players are not the only ones to ever have had charges dropped against them. But for some reason people want to fall all over themselves to kiss their asses. Says a lot about wealth and power.

[Solo_in_MD]

36. Its why they were dropped and that they clearly never should have been filed

a pol did what pols do best, lied for his own benefit (re-election).

[marshall]

39. Why not look at tit another way

Don't think about the lacrosse players who were declared innocent--think about the corrupt elected politician who used a mentally unstable poor black woman to further his own ambitions and with no thought to the welfare of his community that became embroiled in racial turmoil over bogus charges.

[LisaL]

41. With "evidence" like this, it's very hard for me to imagine how

someone will less fortunate background would be in jail for this. Care to explain it? There was no DNA evidence on the woman belonging to any of the accused, but DNA belonging to other men was found on her.
How many rape cases do you know where accused were put away on evidence such as this?

[AngryAmish]

87. What really blew up the case was an intentionally misleading report

I'm trying to simplify this, so if I get some facts wrong forgive me.

So Nifong hired a private lab to do the DNA testing. When the testing was done Nifong met with the scientist and discussed the findings before the scientist made up his report. Scientist says we don't have the DNA of these boys on the girl but we have DNA from some other men. Nifond tells scientist to write up his report that no DNA was found. And so it was. Thus the DA could argue condoms were used or other such thing.

So one of the LaCrosse boys hires a smart fancy lawyer.

Court orders discovery in the case. The report is turned over along with the underlying testing data from the lab.

Smart fancy lawyer decides to learn about DNA testing, buys a textbook and looks at the underlying data. Lo and behold when the underlying data is examined it turns up evidence of other men on the person of Crystal Magnum (stripper).

Why is this important? SANE nurse testified she had swelling around her privates - evidence of rape as well as consensual sex with multiple partners. This is exculpatory evidence withheld by the prosecution in agreement with the private lab.

So would a poor guy go to jail? Well you get the amount of justice you pay for. Most lawyers do not understand ANY science (trust me, I know) let alone be able to look at the basic data of DNA testing. Most lawyers only look at reports. However given enough motivation (and $400 an hour is pretty good motivation) a fancy smart guy found this evidence of corruption.

[live love laugh]

56. Says a lot about wealth, power...and more. The "crazy" woman defense

seems to have worked once again. I didn't follow the case very much at all, but it's predictable that in such cases women are portrayed as whores or crazy goldiggers. They got a two-fer: both whore and crazy--at least that's what we are being told. The women changed the story. Could there be reasons for that? I can think of some with their backgrounds.

The motivation for doing something like this does not make sense to me. Why would anybody want to create this kind of undesirable situation? I don't see the benefit or even the promise of a benefit of a one-time stripper plotting to scream rape or attack.

Also, I recall that there was incriminating evidence relating to the intentions of the "boys" when they called the stripper to their quarters.

The people who keep posting here seem to be hired to manipulate opinions about the outcome IMHO. Perhaps the "boys" parents paid a PR firm to help them out? After all, when do juries declare that defendants are "innocent" as I keep seeing here. Juries declare defendants not guilty. Innocence is another question altogether and I don't buy it.

[LisaL]

57. My advice-know at least a little bit about the subject you are

trying to discuss.

[live love laugh]

59. My advice, don't be so obvious in your intentions to dissuade people from their own opinions. n/t

[LisaL]

63. You need to know something about the subject to form an opinion.

By your own admission, you know squat about the case. So, how did you form an opinion?

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

62. Since you admit you didn't follow the case, you may be excused for not knowing what you're talking

about.

Why you'd choose to speak from ignorance in public, however, is another matter altogether.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

67. That's a poor excuse for an informed position, but a good example of the lynch-mob mentality

that would rather these students be guilty based on bias, rather than facts.

[live love laugh]

68. I assume you were a lawyer in the case, or on the jury?

Because if you were not, your opinion holds no more weight than mine. As for poor excuses for informed positions, your "lynch-mob" ad hominem is also a poor excuse for civilized discourse as was your initial response to MY opinion.

[LisaL]

69. For crying out loud, what jury?

What are you discussing?

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[live love laugh]

167. My mistake, There was no jury. I still have questions about the case

which I have voiced.

Too bad that I am not an expert like you. :sarcasm:

[mondo joe]

70. If you knew anything about the case you'd know there was no jury - and the reason

for that is that the students were pronounced INNOCENT in a case of PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT.

But neither the facts of the case nor your total ignorance of them has prevented you from offering factually erroneous opinions so far, so I doubt this new data will prevent you from continuing on your uninformed rant.

[live love laugh]

73. Gee "Joe"

You have used that phraseology before. Practice much?

"...I doubt this new data will prevent you from continuing on your uninformed rant."

[mondo joe]

77. Only if you consider correcting ignorance of the occassional poster "practice".

Now that you've abandoned any pretense of an actual argument regarding the case, do you have anything to contribute?

[live love laugh]

89. Why are you are continually drawn to EVERY Duke thread and to my posts?

I think the more important question is what is creating your overriding obsession with this issue? You and "lizzy" show up in every thread calling people freepers and the like.

If you don't like what I have to say and my rightful opinion, go somewhere else. YOU are dismissed.

[mondo joe]

92. I think justice and equality are important. I think accuracy is important too, and

there are a lot of falsehoods being perpetrated that need correcting.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

101. These young men, in fact, are innocent. Sorry to rain on your lynch-mob.

But then you've never let the facts of the case get in your way.

[live love laugh]

106. You have your opinion, so do I. Again, your excessive protests against any contrary opinions

say more about your intentions than any words you post.

[mondo joe]

108. Actually, I have facts and informed opinion.

You have made-up shit (jury? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA) and an admission that you didn't follow the case.

[live love laugh]

112. You also have an unhealthy obsession with this case and an inability

to begrudge people their opinions. After all, where are your "facts" and "informed opinion" about an inconsequential case such as this going to get you?

[mondo joe]

114. Hm, again when you are proven factually incorrect you cast aspersions on your fellow

posters.

A poor substitute for a cogent position.

[live love laugh]

119. And your obsession is "cogent"? Where will your "facts" and "informed opinion" take you? nt

[mondo joe]

121. I didn't think posting on DU was taking anyone anywhere, though I am always pleased

to correct fallacies.

[live love laugh]

129. The fact that the likes of you is so obsessed trying to change others' opinions

like mine is all the more reason to be suspect of the outcome of this case.

[mondo joe]

130. I have no interest in changing your uninformed opinions -- only in exposing them

for being factually erroneous.

[live love laugh]

134. That is obvious and the question is why you are so obsessed with doing so.

Most right wing sites have this same topic running and they are also working hard to dispel the notion that the "boys" were guilty. Then there's you, here. What's the connection?

[mondo joe]

137. No connection other than your continued smears of those who correct your errors.

I feel sorry for you for your attachment to falsehoods in this case, and your desperation to see these students found guilty of something - regardless of the facts.

[live love laugh]

141. delete

[live love laugh]

142. I feel sorry for you that you cannot see how transparent you are.

In any case in the justice system, there are things that will never be known, that you nor I can know. For you to assume that what you know is all that there is to know is a reason to feel sorry for you. You have my sympathies.

[mondo joe]

144. But there are some things that are known - though they are not known by you.

That much is clear - by your own admission you did not follow the case, and you have presented arguments that are empirically incorrect - you didn't even know there wasn't a jury.

When you actually know what you're talking about, you might have an opinion worth posting.

[live love laugh]

146. You do not know all that happened. At least you admit it.

I am not obsessed with the case like you. I am disturbed by misdirected people like you, however, who try to shove unwanted opinions down others' throats.

[mondo joe]

149. If I were to shove my opinion down your throat, it would be the first informed one you've

had. But I have neither the interest nor the power to force opinions on you - I can only expose the flaws iin your opinions, which has thus far not been much of a challenge.

[live love laugh]

151. You really have only exposed yourself and your ulterior motives. n/t

[mondo joe]

154. So says the person who thought there was a jury.

:eyes:

[live love laugh]

155. I was wrong about a jury. That doesn't change the fact that you don't have all facts. n/t

[mondo joe]

172. Not having all the facts beats not having any.

Additionally, I have made no claim to "all the facts". Just those that are known.

[tammywammy]

147. Agreed

[live love laugh]

161. There are things that you nor anybody who wasn't there do not know.

They may be innocent in the eyes of the law but that does not stop the questions that surround this case and there are many.

[NeedleCast]

169. Like what?

What are the questions that continue to surround this case?

[mondo joe]

176. They'er like the "questions surrounding" WMDs and Saddam Hussein masterminding 911.

No facts are needed when you've already decided someone is guilty.

[live love laugh]

162. Mobs are groups of people--I am a single poster. Now you and your buddies, maybe that's a mob. n/t

[OzarkDem]

78. Agree, very predictable

the outcome is pretty much what I anticipated when this first happened. Sad to say our society still holds drunken jocks in such high esteem.

[mondo joe]

81. No esteem for drunken jocks or for lying prosecutors - just esteem for the truth and

for justice.

[Iris]

175. Yep. I was just thinking this morning that I've never seen so much support for a "Girls Gone Wild"

girl. It's alway "it was her choice, she deserves the conseqences."

For that matter, the same was said about the young man here in Georgia who is in jail for receiving oral sex from a 15 yr. old. when he was 17. Lots of posts saying, "He put himself in that position."

But the Duke guys? One of them actually received "Alumni of the Year" from the high school he graduate from. Never mind the fact that all this stemmed from a drunken party with hired strippers.

[yardwork]

99. You are incredibly misinformed about this case.

I suggest that you stop while you are this far behind.

[NeedleCast]

100. To summarize your post

I don't know much if anything about this situation, but here's my opinion..."blah blah blah."

Seriously, get a clue.

This woman has a history of mental imbalance. This fact is not in dispute.

This "situation" was created by a DA running for re-election using this woman as a celebrity spotlight. This fact is not in dispute.

There was no incriminating evidence relating to the intention of the "boys." This fact is not in dispute.

There was no jury trial in this case. Not only does it make you look ignorant to say there was, it shows us just how uninformed you are on this topic that you don't seem to have any problem expressing your misguided opinion on. The defendants were no found innocent, they were not found not guilty. There was not a trial. There was not a trial because there was a complete and total lack of evidence in this case. All charges were dropped. This fact is not in dispute.

[Midlodemocrat]

140. If I were you, I would quit posting on this.

You are digging a deeper hole for yourself with each comment you make. There was no jury. There was no trial because there was no evidence.

[tammywammy]

156. But don't you realize

They're white, their parents have money, athletes, were having a party, got drunk and hired a stripper....therefore they deserved to go to jail on bunk rape charges.

[Midlodemocrat]

158. Oh, you're right. *smacks forehead*

Duke's endowment was over $3.8 billion in 2005. I think there might, just might be a chance that not all of those boys were 'wealthy'.

But, you know how it goes. Piling on the fortunate is a favorite DU pastime.

[tammywammy]

168. These men weren't wealthy

Their parents are. To me at least there's a difference.

[slackmaster]

157. In this particular case, the woman is a crazy gold-digger

Perhaps not a whore.

[tammywammy]

122. All I'm going to say is

It's obvious that you don't know the facts of this case.

These men weren't just declared not guilt, but the state said they were innocent...big difference.

Justice was served in this case. If the "rich" in society can almost be railroaded by a rouge DA, it should open your eyes to what can happen to the not so rich. Instead of railing against these men, why not be out their ranting for change in our justice system?

[ComerPerro]

178. point is, someone without the resources of these guys' families would have been up shit creek

not only because they wouldn't have been able to post bond, but also because they wouldn't have had access to the same kind of defense, and wouldn't have been able to shoot down the prosecution nearly as well. Most likely a person of limited means would end up with a very long jail sentence.

And that's assuming they actually were completely innocent, which I'm not so sure they were.

But if you wanna carry a torch for these kids (rich white men, so they need the support, right) go right ahead. I think its pathetic hero-worship of the unworthy.

[LisaL]

187. Being rich is not a crime in this country, as far as I know.

Are you suggesting otherwise?

[ComerPerro]

199. in fact, it guarantees you won't be punished for crimes

[LisaL]

211. If you didn't commit any crimes, why should you be punished

for something you didn't do?

[OzarkDem]

49. Duke needs to apologize

for protecting and promoting the activities of the lacrosse team. Regardless of what happens with Nifong, these kids behaved very badly and had a history of doing so.

If Duke has a shred of credibility, they should make an effort to clean up the bad behavior of jocks on their campus.

[Mike Daniels]

58. One could say that of all colleges in regards to their student athletes

Duke is not unique in this instance.

[OzarkDem]

75. Absolutely, its commonplace

protecting criminal, abusive jocks on campus kind of fell out of favor during the late sixties and seventies in many of the better schools, but there seems to have been a real regression in the last decade. I suppose its related to the money that college sports events bring to schools, but it hardly seems worth the price of losing your reputation as a good school.

[ProfessorGAC]

83. That May Be True, However. . .

. . .these guys DIDN'T break any laws. I support your disgust over the way schools ignore the criminal acts of some star athletes. But the lead law enforcement agent of the entire state said they didn't do anything and that the evidence was totally counter to a crime being committed.

So, in this case, your righteous indignation (and i mean that in a good way) doesn't apply.
GAC

[OzarkDem]

94. I seriously doubt

the full facts of this case will ever come out. They seldom do in these situations.

And women should continue to show righteous indignation, until they are protected from this kind of activity.

[mondo joe]

96. When you say you doubt "the full facts...will ever come out", are you substituting

your imagination for the facts?

[ProfessorGAC]

102. You Can Remove The Chip From Your Shoulder

I'm agreeing with you, for goodness sake. But,when the state AG says they didn't do it, and he HAD all the facts, i think your reasonable indignation over the way uni's protect athletes is misapplied in this one case.
GAC

[OzarkDem]

120. Then everyone should move on

There's no need to hold these kids up for praise or martyrdom, they're not worthy. They should be sent for counseling and the school should focus on cleaning up its athletic program.

[ProfessorGAC]

128. Ok By Me

Like i said, i'm agreeing about the shielding of athletes. Just don't think these guys should be the object lesson.
GAC

[AngryOldDem]

171. What happened to personal responsibility?

>>And women should continue to show righteous indignation, until they are protected from this kind of activity.>>

I'm going to catch hell for this, but I don't care. If women feel threatened by certain situations, they can avoid them. Most have the common sense and intelligence to do so. If the frat/jock culture at a school is notorious, then avoid it. If you choose to associate with it, then the consequences of that decision lie squarely with you and no one else.

Women CAN protect themselves. To imply otherwise is, quite frankly, paternalistic and insulting.

My righteous indignation lies with people of authority who think that because of that authority, they can ride roughshod over the law and anyone else who gets in their way.

[marshall]

74. Should the stripper's school apologize for her behavior?

This is the second false rape allegation that she has made--that we know of.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LisaL]

82. Why don't you quit accusing other posters?

Isn't that against DU rules?

[OzarkDem]

84. Why don't you

quit stalking me. I don't agree with you, get over it. You aren't going to change my mind or the facts.

[mondo joe]

85. Facts? Have you referenced any facts?

All I saw were nasty accusations.

[JVS]

218. They cannot be known. It's like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle...

or the Bush administration's claim that we cannot tell that the surge isn't working because its effectiveness may be hidden by "the fog of war"

[LisaL]

88. I feel like you are the one stalking me.

Trying to scare me or make weird accusations.

[mondo joe]

79. What did the Lacrosse team do - or more importantly what did Duke do - that

calls for an apology?

[OzarkDem]

90. The team had a history

of bad behavior on campus, drinking, violence, vandalism, DUI. The school condoned it, giving them only warnings. Though the full facts will never be known in this particular case, this group of jocks was, and probably still is, an accident waiting to happen.

If you are familiar with the behavior of jocks on college campuses, you'll know its a widespread problem that school administrators have to deal with. They didn't in this case and instead somehow managed to make these jocks look like victims, giving them license to continue their bad behavior. If my kids were in school there (fortunately they aren't, I would never let them attend a college in the south), I would pull them out immediately. I pity any of the non-jock kids on that campus.

[mondo joe]

93. Facts please, about this team annd these students.

Broad brush smears may be fun for you, but they are a poor excuse for actual facts.

If you think Duke should apologize, please identify specifically what they should apologize FOR.

[OzarkDem]

95. google it yourself

its in the early stories when the incident first happened, before the jocks reputation was sanitized by the news media.

[mondo joe]

97. I see. You've got nothing.

Thanks.

[OzarkDem]

104. 15 players had prior criminal charges

In the past three years, about a third of the members of the Duke lacrosse team, under investigation in a reported gang rape, have been charged with misdemeanors stemming from drunken and disruptive behavior, court records show.

Of the team's 47 members, 15 faced charges including underage alcohol possession, having open containers of alcohol, loud noise and public urination.

Most of those charges were resolved in deals with prosecutors that allowed the players to escape criminal convictions.


http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/422787.html

[mondo joe]

107. And the school should apologize for....

What precisely?

[OzarkDem]

113. For not doing more

to get rid of the bad kids. I'm sorry, but most people think criminal, drunken, violent behavior on college campuses is a bad thing, even when its done by athletes.

Good students shouldn't have to be subjected to this kind of behavior. Holding these drunken louts up as some kind of victims is the most ridiculous thing I've seen. They should be put into counseling and straightened out. At the very least they set a poor example to other students.

[mondo joe]

118. Though you are very comfortable with broad brush smears, I believe people are responsible

for THEIR actions, and not some sort of collective stereotype.

No criminal be held up as a victim.

But the students in this case WERE victims.

[OzarkDem]

126. Drunken frat boys

hiring strippers and pawing them doesn't sound much like a victim to me. These kids already had criminal records. They're lucky this case put the brakes on their bad behavior and if they're smart they'll clean up their act instead.

And specific criminal charges aren't broad brush smears. These kids aren't angels, no matter how you try to make them appear that way. Being white and a jock doesn't make you exempt from judgment if you've been in trouble with the law.

[mondo joe]

132. I don't see how hiring a stripper mitigates prosecutorial misconduct.

Nor do I see how having a criminal record does.

One can hire a stripper and STILL be the victim of a crime or injustice.

You don't have to be an angel to be wronged.

[onenote]

152. no, they're not angels. But they're not a lot different from other students

The investigation conducted regarding the behavior of the Duke Lacrosse team found that the number of team members implicated in irresponsible behavior (public urination, loud/diruptive parties, etc).and the number of alcohol-related incidents involving them was excessive compared to other Duke athletic teams and the Duke student body in general. But, the types of conduct engaged in by the students was different in character than the conduct of the typical Duke student who abuses alcohol. In particular, the reported conduct of the Duke lacrosse team did not involve fighting, sexual assault or harassment, or racist behavior.

Read the report here: http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/mmedia/features/lacrosse_incident/lacrossereport.html

[OzarkDem]

182. Threats to "kill & skin the bitches"

yeah, real nice kids. Hope I never meet anyone from your family.

"APRIL 5--Shortly after an exotic dancer claimed she was raped at a Duke University lacrosse team party, a member of the squad sent an e-mail announcing that the following night he planned "to have some strippers over" and would be "killing the bitches" as soon as they walked into his dorm room. Disclosure of the e-mail came today with the unsealing of a March 27 search warrant for the residence of Ryan McFadyen, a sophomore lacrosse player. "

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke1.html

[tammywammy]

183. Except that email was sent after the party

and wasn't by any of the three accused!

[OzarkDem]

188. Parsing?

He was at the party, he was friends with the accused.

[mondo joe]

184. What does that have to do with the accused?

?

[onenote]

193. Wow. Just wow.

I'm sorry. Did I say that they were "real nice kids"? No. But suddenly this is about my family.
Believe me, if I can do anything about it, I will make sure no one in my family ever meets you.

You are beneath contempt.

[OzarkDem]

197. Serious lapse in judgement

stating these kids are "not that different" from other kids seems to show a lack of knowledge about their true character and actions or a lack of respect for the rights of others.

They're certainly a whole lot different from my own college age kids. My sons steer clear of this crowd, they have nothing in common with them and little respect for them either. Going through college drunk, stupid and beating up on women isn't much of a life.

[onenote]

198. For a moment I thought you were admitting something

but I guess that was wishful thinking on my part.

Your kids may be perfect angels, in which case you are to be commended. However, the facts as determined by the panel that reviewed the history of the Duke lacrosse team found that while they were more prone to stupid, obnoxious behavior than the average student, the type of behavior that they engaged in was no different from other students who got drunk. Unless you have some evidence to the contrary, my guess is that the students that got drunk, peed in public, had loud parties and were disrepectful to the neighbors came from a variety of backgrounds.

And I'm curious -- when did anyone on the Duke lacross team "beat up on women"? A review of both Duke and Durham police records established that of the sixteen incidents involving lacrosse players that resulted in citations from the Durham police or agents of the Alcohol Law Enforcement agency all but two involved typical alcohol related misconduct and none of the misconduct involved fighting, sexual assault or harassment, or racial slurs.

I'm not celebrating or even condoning public urination and public disorderliness. But the fact that they engaged in uncouth behavior does not justify levelling false charges against them..something that you now seem to have joined Mr. Nifong in doing.

[OzarkDem]

201. Once again, I repeat

I'm not contesting the verdict in their favor.

Just don't present them as heroes or martyrs or expect others to feel sympathy for them. They're sick, flawed people in need of psychiatric help.

[onenote]

202. Maybe they are and maybe they aren't

If they are, so are a lot of other college students who get drunk and pee in public and throw rowdy noisy parties.

But one thing that there is no evidence for is your claim that they beat up on women.

[OzarkDem]

204. Wrong again

I'm sure its still very offensive to you, but I criticized them of hiring strippers and pawing them.

Bragging about skinning and killing bitches might be ok with you, but not acceptable to most folk.

[onenote]

209. Actually you criticized them for "beating up on women"

And there is no evidence of that. As for the lacrosse team member who wrote the offensive email, I don't regard him as anything other than a jackass. He was suspended for school and then reinstated later. The basis for reinstating him was the determination that his email was not serious, but a pathetically poor attempt at humor, using language not of his own creation, but quoting from the book "American Psycho." Personally, I think it was a mistake for the school to reinstate him after only a couple of months and that he should've been suspended for at least a year.

But what strikes me most is that you seem to have no hesitation to use the behavior of this one jerk to paint everyone on the Duke team (and indeed, all white frat boy/jocks) as mysoginists. Yet, I am fully confident that if anyone here attempted to paint all women -- or even all strippers -- based on the behavior of the accuser in this case, you would be outraged. And you'd be right. Which is why you are wrong to paint the rest of the duke team as broadly as you do.

[OzarkDem]

215. And wrong again

Sorry, I don't respond to posts from you any longer because you don't know how to hold an honest discussion and insist on lying about the statements of those you disagree with. You have an agenda and pov you wish to advance regardless of the facts. Good luck with that.

[Nederland]

143. Oh my

Of the team's 47 members, 15 faced charges including underage alcohol possession, having open containers of alcohol, loud noise and public urination.

I had no idea college students these days engaged in this kind of behavior. Underage drinking? At a college? What is the country coming to? :eyes:

[ProfessorGAC]

160. I'm Shocked, SHOCKED!

When i was in college in the early and mid 70's we NEVER behaved like that. (It's hard to type with my fingers crossed.)
GAC

[Mike Daniels]

165. Except that none of those offenses are rare among colleges

The offenses you listed are common offenses on/around college campuses and I'd be willing to bet more than a fair shrare of those are committed by students who have no involvement in college atheletics. In fact, I can guarantee that if you collected 47 random college students that at least a third of them would cop to underage drinking or drinking in public with an open container.

None of the offenses you listed are anything more than low-level misdemeanors and in most cases (underage drinking is the exception) you can by-pass a trial and just pay a fine at the clerk of the court's office. Unless the laws have changed the only time someone would be in jail for most of those offenses is if the officer decided to put them in a holding cell until the person sobered up.

These are hardly the type of offenses colleges worry about their atheletes getting charged with over the year.

[marshall]

105. Unfortunately sex and drinking go hand in hand with a university education

It's not very beneficial to getting an education, but not everybody can go to BYU.

[OzarkDem]

109. Forced sex and violence

also go hand in hand with university education for some of these kids. Not a good way to start life, victimizing others. Also a sad way to have your college career cut short - being the victim of criminal behavior from fellow students.

[tammywammy]

111. But these men never did that

as far as we know in general, but proven never did that with the woman that accused them.

[ProfessorGAC]

110. Their Reputation As Boors Is Irrelevant To The Legal Issues Here

I'm not defending these guys as a team, or as boorish frat boys. But, i am defending them against a criminal charge about which the state AG says was bogus.
GAC

[LisaL]

115. Actually, they have behaved very well this school year and did charity

work.

[OzarkDem]

123. Then after the charity work

they got drunk and hired some strippers. Nice kids. Sorry, scum in my book.

[mondo joe]

124. There is nothing illegal abouut hiring strippers, or - if one is of age - getting drunk. You might

prefer Jerry Falwell's university as role models.

[marshall]

127. It's just as irrelevant as the stripper's reputation

It wasn't too long ago that society would have said a woman like her couldn't be raped.

The prejudices against the team players are just as embedded as the prejudices against strippers. Nifong took advantage of that and played the public like a violin.

[ProfessorGAC]

131. Another Vehement Agreement

You're agreeing with me. And, i don't care about what society used to think. It's not the case now, from a legal perspective, and in this case, the boorish behavior of these frat boys is still irrelevant. You seem to be agreeing with me and disagreeing at the same time.
GAC

[OzarkDem]

136. Except

the jocks had more than a "reputation", many of them had actual criminal records. Not rumors or smears, but arrests.

[mondo joe]

138. Are you of the opinion that anyone with any criminal record cannot be the victim

of prosecutorial misconduct?

[ProfessorGAC]

139. Not The Three Charged, Though

I accept you at your word. But, the three indicted didn't. And, if reputations count, are you suggesting accuser was a less credible victim because of her reputation? That seems so 1950's.
GAC

[Mike Daniels]

170. And those arrests were for offenses that are not uncommon on a college campus

It's not like any of these students had records for crimes of a sexual or violent nature.

Hell, you'll find similar offenses on police reports from every beach/resort area in the country.

[Mike Daniels]

191. Correction - one of the accused (Finnerty) was on probation for assault

However, the details were misreported in the press to some degree.

Both Finnerty and the other participant were charged as both were deemed to be at fault and the other participant dismissed claims that the assault was "gay-bashing" as the other participant was straight.

[tammywammy]

103. Wow

How disgusting.

[Jade Fox]

116. Thank you.

[AngryOldDem]

125. What are your connections to the case?

Your posts imply a lot of inside information. Or is it general, stereotypical assumptions?

[OzarkDem]

135. Just someone who

has had numerous friends, roommates and family members victimized by jocks on campuses around the country in similar situations. In the seventies, when I was in school, there were at least a dozen rapes on campus every year. I was nearly victimized numerous times when I was in college and learned how to avoid these people and extricate myself from dangerous situations. If you're a woman, you learn pretty quickly - stay away from the jocks and stay away from frat parties. This stuff has been going on for decades on college campuses and the outcome is fairly routine.

I've heard its worse today. My boys are going to midwestern colleges and have learned also to be very careful to avoid the drunken jock/ frat boy crowd. They don't have much in common with them.

[AngryOldDem]

159. Seems at least one of the Duke kids did just that -- avoided the party

Seligmann left the house before the prosecution maintained the assault happened. An ATM surveillance camera, eyewitness testimony from the cab driver, and a receipt proved that. And by your logic, the women who came to the house should have known better than to have gone there.

You are just restating Nifong's theory. He knows "something must have happened" there, too, probably by the same associations you are using. Rich, white, frat, jock boys. It didn't work for him and it's not working too well for you, either.

ON EDIT: Never mind.

[marshall]

164. That is what I find so repugnant about him

He did not interview Mangum, nor did his assistants. The only thing he has to base his supposition that something happened is his prejudice against the social class the players came from.

[AngryAmish]

166. You are behind the times

Rapes have fallen 85% since the 70s. Rapes do happen but at a much less frequent rate.

[OzarkDem]

179. Got a link?

Didn't think so.

[AngryAmish]

181. Here you go

"The number of rapes per capita in the United States has plunged by more than 85 percent since the 1970s, and reported rape fell last year even while other violent offenses increased, according to federal crime data.

This seemingly stunning reduction in sexual violence has been so consistent over the past two decades that some experts say they have started to believe it is accurate, even if they cannot fully explain why it is occurring.

In 1979, according to a Justice Department estimate based on a wide-ranging public survey, there were 2.8 rapes for every 1,000 people. In 2004, the same survey found that the rate had decreased to 0.4 per thousand."

[nosillies]

173. OK, I'm trying to figure it out here, help me out...

Do you just hate men? Or whites? Or wealthy people? Or athletes? Or men in fraternities? Or people who went to Southern colleges? Or people with prior criminal records? Or students who've done some stupid things? Or people who have ever been drunk?

Did I miss something?

Or maybe you just hate people who fit some specific combination of the above?

Or maybe you just hate all white men with money who play sports when not doing frat stuff at Southern colleges where they sometimes get in trouble for doing stupid stuff while drinking?

Is there anybody out there you don't hate?

Just a warning: while you're busy jumping to conclusions, make sure you don't knock that huge chip off your shoulder! It might fall on your foot...ooouuuuch.

Oh, and congratulations on developing your own perfection and raising perfect children. I'm sure that wasn't easy to do while you were so busy carrying around some obvious baggage.

[OzarkDem]

180. "Killing and skinning the bitches"

APRIL 5--Shortly after an exotic dancer claimed she was raped at a Duke University lacrosse team party, a member of the squad sent an e-mail announcing that the following night he planned "to have some strippers over" and would be "killing the bitches" as soon as they walked into his dorm room. Disclosure of the e-mail came today with the unsealing of a March 27 search warrant for the residence of Ryan McFadyen, a sophomore lacrosse player. McFadyen is pictured at right in his team headshot


If you support kids like that, I'd say you're the one with a problem.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke1.html

[mondo joe]

185. "Kids like that"? Broadbrush much?

Is every player to be judged by the actions of someone else?

[OzarkDem]

190. Absolutely, in this case

frat boy group-think. It may be ok with you, but most people are offended.

[mondo joe]

212. Most decent people are offended by guilt-by-association.

"Groupthink" = "stereotype".

[tammywammy]

186. Except that wasn't by any of the men accused!

[OzarkDem]

192. Tammy, do you like guys who talk this way?

Do you like going to parties with or dating guys who talk about skinning bitches and killing them? Are you even a woman?

[LisaL]

196. That's the second poster you accused of not being a woman

(just today). WTF is wrong with you?

[OzarkDem]

203. I'm always curious

about women posters who appear to strongly dislike other women and take sides with men against them. True, I guess there are some women out there like that who feel uncomfortable and feel they need the security of a man's approval.

Myself, I'm proud to be a woman and I'm happy to support and demand respect for all women. I'm not uncomfortable with my femininity.

[mondo joe]

217. The poster believes strongly in GROUPTHINK. You know - all women are supposed

to think one thing, or there's something wrong with them. All Lacrosse players think the same thing and have gult by association.

:shrug:

[tammywammy]

225. Um, my name's Tammy

I think having ovaries means I'm a woman. So check.

[nosillies]

195. And exactly where did I say I supported the student who made that comment?

You are very quick to accuse other people of having problems, being uneducated and naive, being perps, etc. without anything to back up those statements.

So please let me know when I expressed support for that person. I challenge you to find an example. I would never support that statement (made by someone who, as another poster pointed out, was not even one of the students prosecuted -- oh those damn facts, always getting in the way, right?). However, I also do not support broad-brush haters who stereotype others based on insecurities, jealousies, ignorance, whatever. Know anyone like that? Don't make me throw up some links!

[mondo joe]

174. I'm reminded of Bush's certainty about WMD's.

Who needs facts when you can have guilt by faith?

[tammywammy]

91. It's good Duke finally said something...

Though the President should have stood up much sooner.

I don't think the 88 profs need to be moved from the school, but each individually should make a statement apologizing for jumping to conclusions over this.

[onenote]

145. The University did say something earlier

In April the head of the Board of Trustees, in a statement to the Duke community, acknowledged that in hindsight "there is no question that there are some things that might have been done differently."
http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2007/04/steel_letter.html

Not sure what more you can expect them to say.

[tammywammy]

148. Thanks for the link

:)

[rasputin1952]

163. Seek Justice, not vengeance...

I have little respect for a multitude of thing sin this case. Nifong, the "88", drunken rich frat boys, the media frenzy, individuals who press charges that are markedly untrue, faculty's/administration's that act before any evidence is in...the whole thing stinks. Just about the only thing that is worthy of respect is the state AG's office.

As for the "88", they will receive their due from the students and the rest of the faculty. I'm not sure what these "professors" profess, but it certainly is not conducive to the ideal that the law should be respected, and the Constitution honored.

The only reputations destroyed are those of Nifong, (good thing), the "88, (good thing), the administration, (good thing), the coach, (bad thing), and the "victim", (so-so thing); the reputations of the players has been exonerated.

I'm not going to waste a whole lot of time worrying about this. It has become a circus. Truth has come out, let the chips fall where they may. The "88" have shown themselves to lack critical thinking, Nifong cannot go on any more legal jihads...that's about it.

When these kids graduate and move on, no one is going to give a tinker's dam, why should I?

The lesson learned in all of this is that people can be led, like sheep, to come to errant conclusions by a combination of lies, corruption and a willingness to believe all of the hype that the media created.

Unfortunately, women are assaulted everyday, in terrifying situations...this is where we should be putting our energy, stopping those that abuse others to the extent that we never hear of them. If this had happened anywhere but in a high profile college, it would have garnered zero attention. The women who have been truly abused by rape and abuse are the ones who are forgotten and left to fend on their own...there lies the real problem.

[OzarkDem]

194. Unfortunately

this case will make it much more difficult for women victims of assault to see justice. Prosecutors and police will be afraid to investigate cases. A lot of women will be hurt.

[onenote]

200. so would railroading the students to a conviction have better served women's interests?

Trying to understand your point.

[OzarkDem]

205. Appears you're unable to do so

for fear of interfering with your vision of these creeps as heroes of some sort.

Repeat, no one is contesting the verdict from their day in court. Just don't ask us to view them as heroes or martyrs. They're sick, sick people. And the verdict will cause harm for innocent women who are victimized by men and prosecutors who will be afraid to take the criminals to court if they have money and connections.

Get over your martyr complex. No one is contesting the verdict. We're just sickened and disgusted by the Duke players and feel little sympathy for them, simply because their behavior has been so repulsive and sick.

[onenote]

207. I'm sorry. I missed where I described them as heroes. Care to point it out to me?

You have a vivid imagination and with some work could be a terrific writer of fiction.

And I take it that your answer to my question is yes, it would've been better for women had the "verdict" in this case been guilty even though there is no evidence to support such a verdict and, indeed, compelling evidence to the contrary.

[OzarkDem]

216. The best possible outcome

would be for misogynist boys to learn that violent fantasies and actions against women are wrong and a sign of an unhealthy mind.

And for strippers and hookers to stay off campus.

And for schools to protect women students from being victimized.

And for the police department and prosecutor to continue to vigorously investigate and prosecute campus crime, regardless of how much money, or how well connected students are.

Perhaps that's where Duke needs to begin its work. It has a lot to do.

[rasputin1952]

206. I hope you are wrong, what I see is that before making

such all encompassing situations, evidence will be looked at and charges filed as necessary. This should be a catalyst for better police and prosecutorial situations when women are harmed in such a manner. The big problem w/this case is that the woman was not raped, she lied about it, and a glory seeking prosecutor went out of his way to build a case that did not exist...right up top the point where evidence was withheld and he was willing to prosecute innocent individuals. That is criminal intent, and I think he should be charged w/that.

Make the case, then prosecute. Women should actually have a stronger stand because of this.

The case must stand upon its evidence, there was none in this case. And I'm the last person that will defend a guilty party if there is evidence that proves the crime.

[Lex]

219. I'm perplexed about how Nifong thought he could sell *nothing*

no evidence, nothing, to a jury. Apparently he had zero.

It was going to be demonstrable that he had no case at some point.

What a bonehead.

[jberryhill]

220. He forgot Rule #1

When you find yourself in hole, stop digging.

[rasputin1952]

221. A remarkably stupid man, the County is better off w/o him in

the DA's office.

Anyone who would do what he did deserves no respect at all. It is obvious that he is not a "thinker"...x(