In response to some of the misinformation on the "Myths" posting

[Quixote1818]

These two paragraphs posted on the "Top 5 myths about America" thread are misleading and in some aspects flat out wrong. Some of the other history about George Washington was not exactly spot on either but lets focus on these two:

From the "Top 5 myths about America" DU posting.

>>James Madison, original mastermind of our Constitution, was an Atheist to the core who loved skewering Christianity. In 1785 he wrote, "What have been fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

>>Thomas Jefferson, who sat down and authored The Declaration of Independence, rarely missed an opportunity to laugh at Christianity. In a letter to John Adams in 1823, he wrote: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus…will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."



Lets take this paragraph first:

>>James Madison, original mastermind of our Constitution, was an Atheist to the core who loved skewering Christianity. In 1785 he wrote, "What have been fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

Here is the whole quote:

Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_JMadison.htm

What was done on the "Myths" posting is almost as bad as what the Religious Right pulls only in the other direction. If you go back and look at what Madison was actually referring to, as I have posted above, he was pointing out the problems with mixing Religion and Politics. Taken by it's self it looks like Madison hated Christianity, but he was trying to make a case for why Religion and Politics are best kept separated. He felt that Religion and Politics would be more "pure" if they were kept separated. He along with Jefferson and many of the founders had a deep admiration for Jesus and his moral teachings even though they doubted his divinity.

Now the following statement is just flat out false: "James Madison, original mastermind of our Constitution, was an Atheist to the core who loved skewering Christianity."

Who said Madison "loved skewering Christianity?". This is just BS someone decided to add on in their own words. All this does is create a wedge between Christians and people of other faiths and it's in complete contradiction to the founders message of Religious tolerance! Also, I had never heard that he was an Atheist before and from everything I came across it looks like he wasn't an Atheist, however only Madison knew for sure.

Link to an article on Madison's Religious beliefs:

Snip>
The historical record thus fails to show that Madison was a Christian in the orthodox sense and strongly points in the direction of his theistic rationalism, what Hutson calls “one of the many mansions of deism,” but is actually a version of theological unitarianism/universalism that posits an active personal god and elevates reason over revelation.

http://www.positiveliberty.com/2007/05/james-madison-still-wasnt-christian.html

Now for the quote from Jefferson that is perhaps closer to the truth but still taken out of context:

>>>Thomas Jefferson, who sat down and authored The Declaration of Independence, rarely missed an opportunity to laugh at Christianity. In a letter to John Adams in 1823, he wrote: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus…will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

First of all saying Jefferson laughed at Christianity is just BS! He didn't believe in the miracles of the Bible but he actually deeply admired Jesus Christ and his moral teachings. Why else would he take the time to actually write his own version of the Bible and take out the miracles?

The following is a cut and past from the following website:

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

. . . Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative.

More on Jefferson's spiritual beliefs:

http://www.monticello.org/reports/interests/religion.html


By taking this stuff out of context and attaching lies to the sacred quotes of our founders and their message of Religious tolerance, we are doing the founders of this country a huge disservice! If we are going to post the kind of stuff that gets sent around as chain letters, please include links! Perhaps that should be a new rule for DU, that we provide links when discussing historical facts.

On Edit: Much of what was in that posting was quite good, I just felt a need to point out some of the historical inaccuracies. There may be more however I am most familiar with the history of our founders.

[me b zola]

1. Regarding Jefferson and his relationship with christianity

First of all saying Jefferson laughed at Christianity is just BS! He didn't believe in the miracles of the Bible but he actually deeply admired Jesus Christ and his moral teachings.

Those two things, laughing at christianity and deeply admiring Jesus Christ, are not mutually exclusive.

I am one who not only occasionally laughs at christianity, but I have become a critic of christianity as an institution. Christianity is being used as a weapon of hate, fear, bigotry, death, & destruction that has almost no resemblence at all to the teachings of Jesus.

It is my belief that if Jesus Christ himself were to walk the earh today that he would want nothing to do with christianity as a religion.


Now if I can both admire (and attempt to follow) Jesus Christ and laugh/criticize christianity, then why would it not be possible for Jefferson to have felt the same?

[Quixote1818]

3. You make a good point

I felt they used the word "laughed" just to be condescending and as flame bate toward Christians. I do see your point though. Perhaps they should have said "He laughed at the belief in the miracles of Christianity."

[Journeyman]

2. Personally, when I read the definition of Deism as. . .

. . . "a Star Wars-esque philosophy that believed in a cosmic energy or big-ass universal "Force", I concluded the author was too simple-minded to be taken seriously and stopped reading.

Thanks for adding a little more clarity to a seemingly murky stew of "thought." Unfortunately, revisiting the thread just now, it seems a great number have adopted this bilge as "gospel" and will probably not be influenced by your clarifying remarks. More's the pity. There's certainly enough factual history to support the basic outlines of the other thread's contention, but to serve bilge and call it sustenance furthers no purpose beyond reinforcing ignorance.

[camero]

4. I think it might be a good idea to changed the term for organized religion

Which is what both Madison and Jefferson were talking about plus you are correct in your assessment of the mixing of religion and politics. Christianity in my book would be the philosophy of Jesus Christ and Christendom would be the institution that purports to profess a belief in him.

[dusmcj]

5. they were both criticizing worldly religious institutions, which doesn't sit well with BSers

Madison said it in so many words - "ecclesiastical establishments". The criticism is very Protestant (recall that the Reformation was less than 300 years old at that point) and very Enlightenment, in the sense of valuing the newly discovered inherent rights of the individual and being inclined to celebrate them, vs. group adherence and all that sort of old defective shit. Of course 21st century Americans who depend for their income on slavish enthusiasm of followers for the manifestations in the world of men of various religious figures and institutions would be perturbed at this freethinking orientation.