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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:32 PM
Original message
Poll question: POLL: Hugo Chavez once and for all.
Since we seem to have resorted to herding cats let's at least do it correctly.

:+

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why is Chavez hated by the DLC/PPI neolibs as he is by the PNAC/AEI neocons?
The same people that defended going to war against Iraq, opposed defunding the war, and recoil at the idea of getting Bush and Cheney impeached, are now parroting Faux News propaganda about Chavez and Venezuela. Why is that? Perhaps it is because the neoliberals at DLC/PPI share the same world view as the neocons at PNAC and AEI. Oh, they might disagree on tactics somewhat. The former may prefer to sugar coat their imperialist policies with a "progressive" label, while the latter prefer to screw people without lubrication, but to those at the receiving end of the oppressive policies they advocate, there is no difference between them.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It's all about the oil
Edited on Fri Jun-01-07 11:19 PM by Hippo_Tron
Chavez is a price hawk and Americans can't get over the fact that oil isn't $20 a barrel anymore. Nevermind the fact that most of that is due to demand from the developing world and while Chavez has some hold over OPEC, it's not the main cause of oil prices.

From an academic standpoint I don't agree with most of Chavez's economic policies because I think that he's not making long term investments and will ultimately run the country into the ground. But I also respect that he's democratically elected and that it's for Venezuela to make a decision about his performance. The fact that Americans watch over his every move and criticize them, when Venezuela is not in any way a threat to our national security shows our incredible arrogance in thinking that we have a right to tell the rest of the world what to do.
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cacamp Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Well Said
Perhaps people should understand that Chavez is doing what has not been allowed to be done in South America since the Cuban revolution. He is attempting to give his nation a new economic system based partly on conventional socialism and partly on an ancient socialism based on the Indigenous people's systems (which are already in place in many areas of his country). This is true also in Bolivia and Peru. This is called the "Bolivarian Revolution" by many and it's message is being heard by Indian people throughout the hemisphere. Not Communist and not against the U.S. except in self defense it is the native majority's attempt to pull themselves out of several centuries of oppression and extreme poverty.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. I understand the politics and the history of the "Bolivarian Revolution" quite well.
I'm still a liberal democrat (small d). I have no problem with how Evo Morales has handled himself, and I'm actually quite a fan. Chavez on the other hand is egotistical and only uses the veneer of populism for propaganda purposes in order to not redistribute wealth/power but rather to consolidate it under the control of himself and his crony's. There are better ways to achieve the goal of social justice than totalitarianism. Chavez's brand of socialism is not socialist revolution in the pure sense, for it has been corrupted by the impulse of demagoguery and greed. Two wrongs do not make a right.

"Historically speaking, the most obvious and most decisive distinction between the American and the French Revolutions was that the historical inheritance of the American Revolution was limited monarchy and that of the French Revolution an absolutism which apparently reached far back into the first centuries of our era and the last centuries of the Roman Empire. Nothing, indeed, seems more natural than that a revolution should be predetermined by the type of government it overthrows; nothing, therefore, appears more plausible than to explain the new absolute, the absolute revolution, by the absolute monarchy which preceded it, and to conclude that the more absolute the ruler, the more absolute the revolution will be which replaces him."

Foundation 1: Constitutio Libertatis, On Revolution, Macmillan (1963).
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Hi cacamp!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. Unfortunately the American people base their decisions on the limited and misleading info they are..
Edited on Sat Jun-02-07 04:25 PM by IndianaGreen
fed by the corporate media. Polls show that a significant number of Americans still believe that Saddam was complicit in 9-11 and had WMD despite all the evidence to the contrary.

It takes work now to be well informed on any controversial topic. Somehow, instead of having a free press to inform the public, we have an entertainment provider to feed a couch-potato citizenry. :-(
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend n/t
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
42. Because DLC stands for
Dems Like Cash.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. The issue is not as black and white as that
Which is why DU debates about Chavez annoy the crap out of me. It's always black and white, good vs evil. Politics is not that simple, especially in a region as complicated as Latin America.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I generally agree.
But I think it needs to be clear to both sides here that neither viewpoint is fundamentally inconsistent with the political bent of this website.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. Support for Bolivarian revolution is as much a lithmus test as support for Spanish Republic
The Spanish Republic came under assault by Franco's fascists and their Third Reich sponsors. The Lincoln Brigade was a manifestation of the American portion of international solidarity with a country under attack by fascism. Likewise, a similar situation presents itself today in regards to Venezuela. We may not have a Lincoln Brigade ready to go to Venezuela to defend them against foreign and domestic aggression, but it is quite feasible that such a thing could happen if Venezuela were to be invaded by an imperialist aggressor.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I'd hope you'd be in the front rank.
:crazy:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. The feeling is mutual
It won't be the first time I don a military uniform.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. I'd like to point out...
...that there is a big difference between the liberal stance and the so-called neoliberal stance. I do not believe in the violent overthrow of governments except in the face extreme human rights violations.

Your line of reasoning is essentially an ad hominem attack i.e. guilt by association.

:+
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. An American one?????
Edited on Sat Jun-02-07 05:11 PM by sanskritwarrior
:evilgrin: I kid I kid........
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
53. I support the revolution to the extent of ridding the country of US Control
I recognize Chavez's government as legitimate and am glad that Venezuelans are electing their own government instead of having a US puppet regime controlling them. US intervention in Latin America has always concerned me.

Still I don't think Chavez is going to prove a particularly effective leader in terms of building a middle class in Venezuela and given better alternatives I sure as hell wouldn't vote for him. Hence, I don't see everything as black and white. Chavez is not saint in my view, but I'll fully admit that the US media is heavily biased against him for no good reason.

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spag68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. This kind of crap has been going on in South America
since I can remember . Hugo is just another tin horn despot, and they George and his crew are really pissed because he is not their dictator.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. To be precise: this kind of crap has been going on in Latin America
because of US interference with nascent democracies who didn't stand to benefit Wall Street.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. Thank you for saving me the typing. n/t
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. Piece Of Shit Power Hungry Scumbag...
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. You have a way with words there n/t
and I agree with you too.
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sidwill Donating Member (975 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I think shutting down RCTV was a bad move but
what would we all want if (hypothetical)in 2009 during a fascist coup against the Obama government, FoxNews initially covered Bush's return to power and then subsequently played Tom and Jerry cartoons instead of covering Obama's restoration to power?

Would any of us think that extending Fox's license served the public good?

Because if you think that would be unacceptable, thats exactly what RCTV did during the 2002 coup.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Hey, Vote In The Poll However You Want...
I've made my opinion of the piece of garbage abundantly clear.
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John Kerry VonErich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Fox News is cable not network
Edited on Sat Jun-02-07 12:06 PM by John Kerry VonErich
Would take courts to do that and not FCC. If it were the Fox Network, then thats a different matter entirely. If you think Family Guy, The Simpsons and American Idol should be sacrificed.
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. I'd rather have Chavez than *
At least he was democratically elected, unlike our chimperor. He's doing what the people want him to do no matter how you gringos feel.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Jesus Christ Why Does Someone Always Have To Present This Ridiculous Argument.
:eyes:

It's not one or the other ya know. We CAN judge each on their own merits, ya know. And on his merits, chavez is a piece of shit power hungry scumbag. Fuck chavez.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Because it's easy?
:beer:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Because it is the choice we are presented with in regards to Venezula
Bush or Chavez?

I choose Chavez!
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. That's a false choice.
"The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution."

Hannah Arendt, New Yorker (Sept. 12, 1970) (1970).

I always made one prayer to God, which is extremely short. Here it is: "O my God, make our enemies quite ridiculous!" God granted it.

Voltaire, Letter to tienne-Noel Damilaville (1767-05-16)
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
46. You're Not Serious Right?
Bush or chavez? Where the fuck in the world is there a need for that choice?

Was there an election coming up I wasn't aware of, in which bush is running against chavez? No? There isn't? Oh ok. So your black and white weird declaration must've just been a joke then. Pretty funny!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Really? That was the choice given to us in regards to Iraq
Support the troops (meaning support Bush's war of aggression) or support terrorism (meaning support those against the war, including Pope John Paul II and His Holiness Dalai Lama).

Support Bush and the Venezuelan elites or support Chavez and the Venezuelan people.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. Your Black And White Thinking Makes You Appear Silly.
These are not teams we're choosing between IG, so I have no idea why you are limiting the discussion to such a simplistic nature.

You may be unable to separate each for their own but I don't. I can think bush a piece of shit and chavez a piece of shit at the exact same time.
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. Piece of scum sucking trash
humanity will be far improved once he is longer on this earth.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Chavez or OMC? n/t
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Chavez........
OMC is one of my favorite DUers.......
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. But enough about Cheney....
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
12. Viva Chavez! Viva Venezuela! n/t
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gobblechops Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. Don't
Trust the corporate whore media do your own search about Chavez and while your at it look at the history of that country and you will see Chavez is a godsend.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
40. I've done even better. I've spoken with Venezuelans
who are not fans of Chavez. And no, they are not the aristocracy.
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
25. Not enough options
I think that it is generous of Chavez to help Americans with their fule needs at a discount--it serves to set him apart from the Arabs who are Bush's friends. And his government, like Cuba, has some redeemable factors. South America was damaged by the CIA for many years which killed many leaders who were aiming for a left-winged government, and I think it's good that Chavez has managed to survive in the fray.

But there are some elements of him and his government are scary, and he is not necessarily our friend. I hope that when the illegal regime is gone that our next president can help to mend our relationship with Chavez, and we can go on to being closer friends with them. But until then, I don't think we can necessarily count on Chavez to be our savior in any way.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
27. No option for both?
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. The point is to demonstrate that both viewpoints have significant support.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. I also vote for both
It isn't an either or case.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
29. Oh Goody.."a once and for all" poll
on whether my man Chavez is a dictator or NOT.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
30. VIVA Chavez!
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. .
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
44. 


:D
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. LOL.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
47. I think "I don't care" is a very good answer.
Why are we in the USA obsessing over Venezuelan politics? Don't we have our own issues? Are we deeply concerned about Paraguay or Peru? What is all this about? Why is Venezuela given so much attention while other places get so little?
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Probably because the Authortarian Trotskyite wing of DU
Edited on Sat Jun-02-07 05:54 PM by sanskritwarrior
loves them some Hugo Chavez, the little dictator with the heart of gold................ :eyes:
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Well it takes two to tango, and the trotskyites have a partner, for sure.
It's been one of the sure fire flamewar issues ever since I've been here.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
48. i like him. n/t
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
50. Everyone who's not a dictator is a hero?
Yay! I'm a hero!
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
54. Kick.
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