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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 02:57 PM
Original message
How Homosexuality Was Removed as a Mental Disorder by the American Psychiatric Association
Edited on Fri Jun-01-07 03:50 PM by Time for change
This past weekend I was discussing with my daughter and her boyfriend the causes of homosexuality (A long standing interest of mine), and my daughter just happened to have with her a DVD which discussed how homosexuality went from being classified as a mental illness prior to 1973 to being NOT classified as any illness whatsoever. It is a very interesting and informative story, narrated on NPR by Alix Spiegel, the granddaughter of Dr. John P. Spiegel, the President-Elect of the American Psychiatric Association in 1973 when he signed off on the historic and permanent change that gave official recognition to homosexuality being re-classified as “a normal variant of sexual behavior” rather than as a mental illness.


Initial classification of homosexuality as a mental illness by the psychiatric profession

The psychiatric profession in particular and most other people in general had long considered homosexuality to be a mental illness. As such, it was classified as a mental illness in the official bible of the psychiatric profession, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), which was first published in 1952.

Alix Spiegel in her NPR narrative, titled “81 Words”, discussed two psychiatrists in particular whose research did much to contribute to the widespread impression of homosexuality as a mental illness: Irving Bieber and Charles Socarides. Today their research is rightly recognized as fatally flawed. The most crucial flaw in their research was that it was conducted among patient populations – in other words, populations that had already been either self-identified or identified by others as having mental problems. If one studies a population of people identified as having mental problems, one is likely to find … mental problems. In retrospect, that flaw in their research appears so obvious that it seems incredible that scientists could have repeatedly made such a mistake or that so many people would have bought into it. But such is the power of ingrained stereotypes that they often cause objective scientific judgment to fly out the window.

Yet, Bieber and Socarides were not what I think of today as bigots, in that it appears that their work was motivated by real empathy towards the homosexuals whom they treated and conducted their research upon. In fact Bieber, as a military psychiatrist, spent much of his time defending homosexuals against punishments (for their homosexuality) meted out by the military, arguing that homosexuality was an illness rather than a crime, so homosexuals should receive treatment rather than punishment and dishonor for their homosexuality. That was actually a progressive view at the time – at least within the U.S. military. After all, classification as a mental illness is a step up from classification as immorality or a crime. Therefore, I feel that it is unfortunate that Dr. Bieber later became the target of such hatred for his views.


The movement to de-classify homosexuality as a mental illness

By the late 1960s, as the Civil Rights movement was gathering steam, gay activist groups were springing up and aggressively questioning the classification of homosexuality as a mental illness.

Probably the researcher who did the most to turn the tide on this issue was Evelyn Hooker, a Ph.D. psychologist who had many gay friends who urged her to conduct research on this subject. Hooker obtained a grant from the National Institutes of Mental Health (NIMH) in 1953 to conduct that research.

In 1956 she startled the psychiatric profession and the world by presenting her research findings. Using standard psychological tests of the time, and having the results of those tests interpreted by psychological experts, it was found that, on average, there was no difference in mental health status between the homosexuals and the heterosexuals who participated in the study.

These findings set off a revolutionary change in the way that homosexuality was viewed, although it took the psychiatric profession several years to come around and accept the revolutionized view. In 1967 Dr. Hooker was appointed to a NIMH national task force to study and make recommendations on homosexuality. In 1969 the task force presented its findings, but President Nixon shelved the report because of its (for the time) liberal recommendations. It did, however, see the light of day in 1972. Matthew Kennedy notes and comments on the recommendations:

The Task Force published its recommendations: Additional research and education, intensive research on prevention and treatment of homosexuality, repeal of laws against consensual adult homosexual acts, and the abolition of employment discrimination.

The clause regarding treatment remained controversial, but Hooker defended her efforts to foster masculinity in effeminate boys. For her, this was a humane solution to a society that demanded heterosexual normalcy. While adoring her gay male friends for their intelligence and creativity, she nonetheless believed that any teenagers who were "teetering on the fence" should be encouraged toward a life with less suffering.

I find it interesting that the hero of the movement to de-classify homosexuality as a mental disorder nevertheless believed that it should be “prevented” and “treated”, an opinion that many homosexuals today (and perhaps in her day as well) would find offensive. This goes to show how much our opinions are dependent upon the prevailing views of our time. In a similar vein, Abraham Lincoln, who did more to abolish slavery in our country than any other single person, made numerous statements while campaigning for the presidency that would today be considered racist, though in his day they were considered quite liberal (which is why the South seceded from the Union).

Dr. Hooker’s research has been criticized on many grounds, some which are valid criticisms. Most important, by selectively choosing apparently healthy homosexuals for her research she made a mistake that was somewhat similar – but in the opposite direction – to the mistake made by previous researchers who claimed to prove that homosexuality was a mental illness.

But most of her critics miss the main point. To show that a research study is “flawed” is not to say that it doesn’t demonstrate some important findings. I don’t believe that any objective analysis of her research could conclude that it proves that homosexuals, on average, don’t have more mental problems than heterosexuals. Indeed, given the degree of prejudice and discrimination that so many of them face throughout their lives, I would be very surprised if they didn’t face a greater risk of mental problems. But demonstrating that should not be construed as evidence to warrant calling homosexuality a mental illness.

The main value of Dr. Hooker’s research was that it showed that it is eminently possible to have homosexual preferences without exhibiting signs of mental illness based on standard psychological testing. In the 1950s and 60s, that was an astounding revelation to most people, in and out of the psychiatric profession. And a major reason that that fact was so widely unappreciated was that the good majority of homosexuals in those days would not dare publicly admit to it.


The final crucial events that led the American Psychiatric Association to de-classify homosexuality as a mental illness

For several years following Dr. Hooker’s groundbreaking research, gay activists continued to agitate for de-classifying homosexuality as a mental illness, while most of the psychiatric profession continued to hold steadfastly to the existing stereotypes. It was a confrontation between single individual members from each of these two groups that provided the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back: Ronald Gold of the Gay Activist Alliance, and Dr. Robert Spitzer, who was a member of the Nomenclature Committee for the American Psychiatric Association (APA).

At a meeting of the Association for the Advancement of Behavioral Therapy in October 1972, Ronald Gold led a group from the Gay Activist Alliance in protest demonstrations, thus disrupting the meeting. Dr. Spitzer vigorously confronted Gold over the disruptions, but then they got to talking about the issues, and Spitzer invited Gold to a meeting of psychiatrists to speak and discuss the issues that concerned him. Gold accepted the invitation and attended the meeting, where he spoke of disease classification as a tool of oppression. Later he invited Dr. Spitzer to a party held by a closeted organization of gay psychiatrists (known as the Gay PA) at a gay bar in Hawaii, after Spitzer told Gold that he wasn’t aware that any gay psychiatrists existed.

The Gay PA party turned out to be a shocking revelation to Spitzer, as he was amazed to recognize numerous prominent psychiatrists there. His conversations with them about their secret lives provided more shocking revelations, and Gold believes that it was that night that Spitzer, as a member of the Nomenclature Committee for the APA, sat down and wrote the draft recommendations that deleted homosexuality as a disease from the DSM.

In his arguments before the committee, Spitzer’s main point was that in order for something to be classified as a disease it must cause “subjective distress” in the victim. In the case of homosexual preference, it isn’t the sexual orientation itself that causes the distress, but rather society’s reaction to it. Spitzer’s recommendations were forwarded to the “Reference Committee”, headed by Alix Siegel’s grandfather, John P. Siegel, whose committee endorsed the change and forwarded it on to the President of the APA, who signed it and made it official.

Today, the percentage of American psychiatrists who believe that homosexuality is a “normal variant of sexual behavior” rather than an illness is over 90%, up from well below 10% in the early 1950s. In 1992 the APA took another big step towards the normalization of homosexuality, with the following official statement:

Whereas homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgement, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities, the American Psychiatric Association calls on all international health organizations and individual psychiatrists in other countries, to urge the repeal in their own country of legislation that penalized homosexual acts by consenting adults in private. And further the APA calls on these organizations and individuals to do all that is possible to decrease the stigma related to homosexuality wherever and whenever it may occur.

The official change in the classification of homosexuality by the APA from an illness to a “normal variant of sexual behavior” has been instrumental in greatly reducing the legality of discrimination against homosexual men and women in the United States – though there is still a long way to go.


A final word on Robert Spitzer’s argument to de-classify homosexuality as an illness

The argument that provided the final push to re-classify homosexuality from an illness (or disease) to a “normal variant of sexual behavior” was amazingly simple and straight forward: It shouldn’t be classified as an illness because many or most people who have it experience no distressful symptoms as a direct result of it – and what distressful symptoms they do experience can be largely if not entirely attributed to the prejudice and discrimination directed against them by society. Homosexuality should no more be classified as an illness than having black skin or orange eyes.

No complex scientific studies were even necessary to make that determination. All it would have taken would have been to question a large number of homosexuals about the “subjective distress” that they did or did not feel as a direct result of their sexual orientation. Dr. Spitzer may not have even needed to do that to reach the conclusion that revolutionized the way that we think about homosexuality in this country. All it took for him was the shock of seeing so many people that he had known as mentally healthy individuals at a gay party – and it hit him like a bolt of lightning.

It should make us think long and hard about the way that we make decisions in this country.

And incidentally it turned out after the dust settled that John P. Siegel (Alix Siegel’s grandfather) was a gay man (previously closeted), as was Charles Socaride’s son, Richard Socaride, who went on to become President Clinton’s Special Assistant and organizer of the first White House Conference on HIV/AIDS. Charles Socaride, who spent his whole career arguing that homosexuality should be classified as an illness, went to his grave believing that he had failed his son by allowing him to become a homosexual.
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november3rd Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is not news
Why are you posting it? There has been a lot of movement in diagnostic and classification definitions since this time, not to mention biology and affective development.

God often sets the record straight or changes the course of events using the least among us, or even failed clinical studies.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. This isn't the News Forum
Its general discussion. And this qualifies as general discussion. And it happens to be educational for many people as well.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Oh get off it. When you have the Joint Chiefs of Staff Peter Pace
publicly calling homosexuality immoral, this information CAN NOT be posted enough.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. What do you mean by that last sentence
Edited on Fri Jun-01-07 03:26 PM by Az
God often sets the record straight or changes the course of events using the least among us, or even failed clinical studies.

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that God conducts clinical studies or something? Not sure what to make of it.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. That confused me as well...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. Several reasons
I thought it was a cool story.

I enjoyed writing it and learned a lot from it.

To many people it IS news.

I thought that some people might be able to use parts of it to combat arguments by the Christian Right.

With regard to new definitions, my purpose was not to provide the most up to date information on the latest definitions, but rather to discuss the revolutionary change in the situation that occurred in 1973.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #45
55. *Sigh* Thank you for posting this. It's an important
and well-written article. Such crankiness here this morning! :eyes:

I've worked with the DSM, and historically speaking, it's amazing how much "politics" (that is, who has the most influence) has determined what stays and what goes.

Also, my immediate response was that it would be useful in countering RW talking points.

Good job! :)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #55
88. Thank you -- that was one of my main reasons for posting this
I hoped that some of it might be useful to counter RW talking points.

Talk about politics! I work for the FDA, and it's amazing to me how much, especially under the Bush administration, the power of the drug and medical device industries influences FDA decisions on what is safe.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #55
91. As a Shakespearean, I once pounced on a book I found
in a second hand store. The title was something like "Cures for Homosexuality".

Because I wanted to find out what clinicians 1) thought was pathological -- it would roughly tell me something about cultural bias and reactivity and 2) clue me into what gay folk deal with.

I had to explain that 76 times to my friends who saw the title on my bookself. :rofl:
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
46. So... the christian god is USING me?
Edited on Fri Jun-01-07 10:20 PM by kgfnally
Yet another reason to stay as far away as I can...
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #46
105. ...in clinical studies, apparently.
I left the Christian church years ago because of the way the church treats gay people. There are many wonderful alternatives to Christianity for those of us who wish to lead a spiritual life.

The Christian church will never get a penny of my money, and I raised my kids outside the church as well.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
51. ????
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
80. Where are God's clinical studies Published? I want to see them...n/t
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #80
106. And were they published in peer-reviewed journals?
What does the Goddess have to say about these clinical studies?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Cool! Can we now add Republicanism?
They've got room, apparently.
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ringtailtooter Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bush Nominates Homophobic Surgeon General Who Wants To Cure Gays
This just came up on Think Progress!!!!!

Last week, President Bush nominated James W. Holsinger to become the next Surgeon General of the United States:

" As America’s chief health educator, he will be charged with providing the best scientific information available on how Americans can make smart choices that improve their health and reduce their risk of illness and injury. … I am confident that Dr. Holsinger will help our Nation confront this challenge and many others to ensure that Americans live longer, better, and healthier lives.

But as BarbinMD points out, Holsinger’s nomination to be “America’s doctor” is troubling. He has a long history of prejudice toward gays and lesbians. Some examples:

– Holsinger founded Hope Springs Community Church, which “ministers to people who no longer wish to be gay or lesbian.” Holsinger said that he sees homosexuality as “an issue not of orientation but of lifestyle.” "

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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
42. A doctor who knows nothing of the human mind?
Well, I wouldn't expect bush to admire anything more..
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Remember, in 1958 nearly 2/3rds of people thought there was something wrong with single women.
Thought there was something psychologically wrong with them.

Ignorant views covered a lot of people in different ways.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. the "causes of homosexuality" are the same as the "causes of heterosexuality"
If you find what "causes" heterosexuality, then you have your answer.

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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
59. I was going to say that.
So thanks for saying it. "Causes"????:wtf:
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. Was "HOMOPHOBIA" listed as a mental disorder to replace it?
One would only hope.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
48. No
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #48
82. Homophobia is listed in the DSM...n/t
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. I couldn't find it -- Do you have a link?
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. I think
I think it's just listed under anxiety disorders. I have to go for a while. When I get back, I will hunt that down. I could be wrong but I swear I saw it listed under anxiety disorders....
Lee
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
92. the replacement was a statement that homosexuality is an illness only if you are upset about being
a homosexual (paraphrased) - indeed it is the being upset about it that is the illness.
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theoldman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. Is being left handed a mental illness? I don't think so.
How about grey eyes?
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Re left handedness of course not, but grey eyes.... thats part of borderline personality disorder
:evilgrin:

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theoldman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Thank, I always wondered what my problem was.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. In fact, in the 1940s and 50s, there were some people who DID think that left-handedness was caused
by emotional disturbance!
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
14. Ok, I have to ask: What are the "Causes" of Homosexuality?
Edited on Fri Jun-01-07 03:37 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
Edited for spelling mistake.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. There is a great deal of evidence for a genetic cause for sexual orientation
Studies of identical twins show a great deal of concordance with respect to sexual orientation. However, the concordance appears to be quite a bit short of 100%, which means that (unless a good proportion of the study subjects lied) there is probably an environmental component as well, meaning a component of cause having to do with one's life experiences and exposures. What those life experiences are I cannot say.

http://www.tim-taylor.com/papers/twin_studies/studies.html
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. How is it different from what causes "Heterosexuality"?
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. There is supposition that the hypothalamus plays a part in this
Studies have found that homosexual men have a hypothalamus that is smaller than a heterosexual man. This is similar to a heterosexual woman's hypothalamus. Studies have yet to be conducted on homosexual women in this regard and the studies have been limited so it is inconclusive at this point.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
44. There is an unwarranted assumption you are making here
--namely that being attracted to women is in some way masculine and that being attracted to men is in some way feminine. People who look androgynous, men who appear somewhat feminine and women who appear somewhat masculine are as varied in their sexual orientations as men and women with more conventional appearances. Transgendered and transsexual people can be straight, bi or gay also.

Gay male sexuality is masculine as far as I can observe. Men, whether straight, bi or gay, tend to place much more importance on physical appearance and favor visually oriented porn. Same for lesbian sexuality. I see it as much more similar to bi or straight women--more emphasis on personal qualities and "processing" relationships and a preference for reading and writing the highly verbal slash fiction for their porn turn-ons.

http://www.refractory.unimelb.edu.au/journalissues/vol6/RShave.html

Slash fiction is overwhelmingly produced and consumed by women, although larger numbers of males are entering the fandom. Slash often contains explicit descriptions of sex, leading to it being described as both erotica and pornography.


You could say the same for visual porn. It is overwhelmingly produced and consumed by men, although larger numbers of women are entering the field.
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Akbar Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
96. Technically
It's the interstitial nuclei of the hypothalamus.

However, when it comes to the anterior fissure of the brain, we gay men are quite well-endowed!
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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
99. That hypothalamus study was so flawed in so many ways: it first used castrated rats for dissection
Edited on Sat Jun-02-07 06:07 PM by nealmhughes
and then self-identified homosexuals who had died of AIDS in the 80s when there was a good chance that the cause of death was a by product of either/not either AIDS related dementia or/and AIDS wasting syndrome.

It was merely an attempt to spread the Nature side of the Nature v. Nurture argument.

WFC? Homoerotic attraction is truly judged on a continuum and not by titration where the sudden turning of pink in the solution below 50ml of reagant indicates "gay."

I would like to offer my own thought: "If a fire need not kindled or metal worked or even stone flaked or a lever necessary for the insertion of Tab A into Slot B, then it is, by definition, not unnatural."

In other words, one may consider homosexuality an art v. a science. Many may be frustrated potential producers, but never do while others feel the need to produce their art and do with great fluency.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. It's not -- two sides of the same coin
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Ahh, ok. So it's really the causes of "sexuality"
Phew, sorry, I misread your post
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #38
63. It's more than that
I am interested in differences in the way that sexuality is felt and expressed.

Some people in this thread seem to feel that that means that I don't "accept" homosexuals or that I somehow look at "homosexuality" as an illness or something of a perjorative nature. I don't look at it like that at all, and I thought that the content of my post, beyond the first sentence, made that clear. I'm sorry if you or others think that.
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Neoma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. The internet.
:sarcasm:
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
81. OK, I have to ask...what are the cause of heterosexuality...
Edited on Sat Jun-02-07 02:33 PM by Madspirit
The human comes in many ways...NATURALLY.

Lee
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Maybe you should read the DU rules about personal attacks
If you believe that human characteristics come naturally without any causes that's your right to believe that. But to call someone else stupid because they believe otherwise is not civil.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #83
90. I changed it. I will just THINK it....n/t
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. Ok, so you're saying that you think I'm stupid. That's a great improvement
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. I NEVER said YOU were stupid. Not Once.
I said the post was or the question was. How would you like it if I put you under a microscope? Huh? Would you? Truth now. I DON'T like it. I am not a "subject". I am not a slide under a scope. I am a person. I don't CARE what you think of me as long as you don't stand in the way of my rights. I and my rights are not up for debate. We are in every species...

I think, therefore I am. That's all that is needed to be known and ergo, I want my rights. NOW. I don't want to be discussed like some parlor topic.

...and fyi, I CAN think what I want. Even Skinner cannot control that.
Lee
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. I am not standing in the way of your rights
Edited on Sat Jun-02-07 04:47 PM by Time for change
Find one thing in my post that would suggest in any way that I am standing in the way of your rights or have any intention of doing so. Did you even read my OP? Or just the first sentence?

Scientists have been studying the causes of human emotions, behaviors and thoughts for a very long time, and I don't see anything wrong with that. If you had just told me that my question offended you, rather than calling me stupid I would have apologized to you for it, as I did to another poster on this thread. But I won't apologize to someone who talks to me like that. And I see very little difference between calling me stupid and saying "What a stupid question"?

And fyi, you CAN think whatever you want... but there are rules on this forum (good ones IMO) against personal attacks, because they don't facilitate intelligent discussion. If you say to someone "What a stupid question" and then delete the statment when called on it but then write that you still THINK it, that is a personal attack.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. You will survive
Actually there is a giant difference between calling someone stupid and calling a post stupid. I see people call posts out all the time. "Stupid" "freeper" "flamebait"...etc. I NEVER called you stupid.

...and this isn't just about human emotions. This is deeper and I don't like being a smear on your slide.
Lee
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #98
102. I don't know what you're talking about
A smear on my slide????
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. My observation: it's not only the right that is anti-science. NT
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #102
107. Yeah
I didn't think you would get it. I am in the process of writing a long reason exactly why I am offended by this kind of post. I am not upset at you. I know you did this in total innocence but it is offensive. I think you will understand after I start my thread on this subject.

Lee
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #107
108. I appreciate your acknowledging that I meant no offense by my post
Please let me know when you start your thread so that I can understand why my thread offends you.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. I meant it too
I know you're on our side. My reaction probably hurt your well-intentioned feelings and I am sorry. I hate to do that. I have to be out most of the day but will be back on tomorrow and will post more about this.
Lee
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #81
101. more importantly what are the causes for stupidity!
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
100. probably the same for the CAUSES of heterosexuality
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
18. The "CAUSES" of homosexuality?
Edited on Fri Jun-01-07 04:08 PM by Bluebear
I would love it if you adjust your thinking that it is not "caused", it just is.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Not sure that is a fair statement
Edited on Fri Jun-01-07 04:19 PM by Az
Even though it is natural, natural things have causes. If for example a small hypothalamus leads to attraction to males then that would be the cause of heterosexual females and homosexual males being attracted to males.

Gender attraction seems to fall along a gradient. Few if any are at the ultimate extreme of either side. Some aspect of our neural makeup determines where we fall on that gradient. That is the cause. Its certainly not us choosing whether we like ice cream or not. We come to recognize what we like.
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Matsubara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. I think it is fair.
I think it's fair because this search for root causes seems to be driven by a desire to eliminate the variations you cite, or it some cases it is driven by a desire to "prove" to the religious nuts that homosexuality is genetic, and therefore created by God and not just a choice and therefore not a sin (which of course the religous nuts would never accede to, they don't CARE if it's genetic, they think it's yucky and MUST try to suppress it).

I know that the scientists all claim they're not politically motivated and are only trying to further understanding, but damned if some political group doesn't sieze on each and every finding as evidence that they are "right".

Even you recognize that people fall on a gradient, and those of us in the middle, if we are to be in a long-term monogamour relationship, are in fact forced to choose, and when we do so, we are practically forced to put on the label of "straight" or "gay", depending on the gender of the person we fell in love with. It sucks because deep down we know we are bisexual, but mainstream society seems less able to handle that than homosexuality.

There is a whole universe of sexual variety out there, I just hate that science seems so eager to pigeonhole people as one or the other.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I understand your concern
But knowledge comes whether you like it or not. And things do have causes. Things happen because of how they work. To deliberately try to blind oneself for fear of other's actions is a bad choice in my opinion. Find out what makes things work and then fend off those who would use their biases and prejudices to assail your position.

And incidentally the notion of sexual identity being a gradient is the scientific understanding. Not just my own personal opinion.
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Matsubara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. The gradient has been around since at least Kinsey.
But subsequent research does tend to ignore the people nearer the middle of the spectrum and focus much more on the extremes as though that was all there is.

Kinsey, being bisexual himself, had a serious interest in understanding that, but a lot of researchers seem to leave the people in between out of the equation.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. The most recent research I saw on the subject
significantly emphasized the middle. I would have to go track it down but a recent Scientific American article detailing the state of understanding of gender identity made it pretty clear that it was a gradient and it was full across the spectrum.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. I believe that everything has a cause
I'm an epidemiologist. Finding causes is what I do for a living.

Anyhow, I have a curious nature, and I wonder about the causes of a lot of things. That's how science progresses. I don't see anything wrong with that.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I suspect the reason for concern
is that if someone goes and pinpoints what causes homosexuality someone else will insist that it be fixed. As if it were something wrong.
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Metta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks for posting. Heartbreaking that ignorance can trump reality.
As we see so often today. No many unnecessarily hurt and worse.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #21
50. In our country today, with Bush and Cheney in charge, not only ignorance but
greed too always trumps reality. I find it very upsetting that our Congress has barely even begun to talk about impeachment :mad:
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
22. It's like Limbo and Purgatory. nt
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Matsubara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
23. Yes, it's a change for the better and our society has progressed, but...
Edited on Fri Jun-01-07 05:03 PM by Matsubara
"This past weekend I was discussing with my daughter and her boyfriend the causes of homosexuality"

What a funny thing to discuss. Did you also discuss the "causes of heterosexuality"? Or bisexuality (which almost everyone seems to ignore, even though it is probably more common than homosexuality)?


Whether they are talking about hypothalamus differences or genetic markers or anything, the assumptions in the studies seem to ALWAYS assume a duality - people must be either gay or straight, and there still seems to be this attitude that it must be something that needs correction. Like, if they could just figure out exactly what it is in the womb that "causes" this, then maybe they could prevent it?


I'll be happy when people recognize how common bisexuality is, and are no longer so threatened by it.


And if the day ever comes when prospective parents can take a test to see if their child might be gay or bisexual, and those babies start being aborted, we will be paving our way to a truly hellish society, because GLBT people have done so much to bring joy and beauty to humanity, and yet so many parents would love to "nip it in the bud" so to speak.

Even my overall liberal wife has said that she hopes our sons don't "turn out gay". Not that she wouldn't love them, but she "wants grandkids", and she thinks life would be harder for them.

I personally will be delighted no matter how they turn out. I only want them to be happy in life, period, and only they can know what that means to them.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. I'm sorry that you seem to see some anti-gay intentions or consequences in my post
I honestly don't know what I can do about that, and I had no intention whatever of giving that impression.

You think that's a "funny thing to discuss". Well, it interests me, like a lot of other things that interest me.

But I am sorry if it offended you.
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Matsubara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I didn't mean it that way.
I'm sure you had the best of intentions.

Just commenting on how ingrained such attitudes are in our society - that it's a "problem", or that it should be "solved".

I'm sure your motivations are fine, but the fact that the questions are raised in the first place, the fact that we don't just accept homosexuality/bisexuality/transgenderism as a matter of course the way we do different eye or hair colors shows that we have a long way to go, and your discussion was symptomatic.

Sorry if I'm not making sense here, but my comment was entirely about the society in which such questions are still being discussed, not about you, personally.

I'm really sorry if I embarrassed or bothered you. I can see how you would take what I wrote that way.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Except we did sort out what causes eye and hair color a long time ago.
We don't know about genes because we tripped over them - it took curiosity about cause, and research.

I'm gay - but I'm also very interested in genetics and evolution. I've always been both of those things.

The cause of sexual orientation is of interest to me - more for the latter than the former reason mentioned above.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Glad to hear that
I would just like to say that the fact that someone is interested in understanding something better or in understanding its causes does not mean that that person does not "accept" it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
24. It's too sad that we're very little further along than when Shakespeare
had to pretend to be straight.

SONNET 26
Lord of my love, to whom in vassalage
Thy merit hath my duty strongly knit,
To thee I send this written embassage,
To witness duty, not to show my wit:
Duty so great, which wit so poor as mine
May make seem bare, in wanting words to show it,
But that I hope some good conceit of thine
In thy soul's thought, all naked, will bestow it;
Till whatsoever star that guides my moving
Points on me graciously with fair aspect
And puts apparel on my tatter'd loving,
To show me worthy of thy sweet respect:
Then may I dare to boast how I do love thee;
Till then not show my head where thou mayst prove me.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #24
71. Yes, it's very sad
And what makes it more sad is that a large part of the reason for it (IMO) is that Republicans use it to scare people for crass political purposes, thereby driving a wedge between the rest of us. And they do that not just with regard to sexual orientation but with regard to welfare and just about everything.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #71
89. It's very hard to vilify the Republican Party because they are
inherently vile -- routinely using fear to manipulate their base
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
29. Very interesting!
In Britain, too, homosexuality was regarded by psychiatrists as a mental illness until the 1970s. (And, at least for men, it was a legal 'crime' until the mid-60s.) People could be subjected to psychoanalysis geared at 'curing' them; or worse, unpleasant hormone treatments that 'worked', if at all, by reducing all sexual urges. In the 1960s and 70s, they were often subjected to aversion therapy where they might be 'conditioned' by electric shock or induction of nausea when shown pictures of attractive members of their own sex, or even of their on loved ones. Sadly, many gay people actually requested such treatments to 'cure' them of an orientation that, even once it had ceased to be a crime in law, could lead to severe ostracism.

Here's a link to an interesting oral history of 'treatments' for homosexuality from the 1950s onwards.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=344258
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
53. Yes, Oscar Wilde was tried & convicted for it.
Guess where he wrote "The Ballad of Reading Gaol"???

Reading Gaol, where he was serving time. It contributed to his early death in 1900.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #29
78. Wow! It sounds like it was worse in Britain than here!
I hope that you (and we) are able to inject some sanity, common sense, and decency into this whole issue before too long.
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Duppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
34. there's always a need for this info
Some people continue to stay blind to the facts.

I've saved some links to read later.

Thanks!

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
37. kicking for history.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
40. Thank you for some interesting history for Pride Month.
:thumbsup:
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
43. I'm happy to see this kind of historical information make it into
Edited on Fri Jun-01-07 08:39 PM by Cerridwen
the discussion here. It's a good reminder of what can happen when we accept the conclusions of "science" as "fact". There have been far too many cases in which "scientific research" has proven gawd-awful bullshit.

Some examples: women's uteri will atrophy should they pursue higher education. (Dr. Edward H. Clarke, Harvard)

U.S. slaves "suffered" from two disorders: Negritude in which the "Father of American Psychiatry", Dr. Benjamin Rush (a signer of the Constitution), described it to be a form of leprosy and the only cure for which was to become white.

Another was Drapetomia which was a mental disorder which caused slaves to run away. The only "cure" suggested by Dr. Samuel Cartwright was "that Negroes should be kept in a submissive state and treated like children, with care, kindness, attention and humanity, to prevent and cure them from running away." Oops, geez, I forgot to add that the first step in the cure when noting symptoms such as sulky and dissatisfied behavior was to whip them. Yes, that's right, whipping was a preventative measure for the "disease."

Go ahead, google away.

edit: see "oops" above
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #43
85. Good examples
Unfortunately, too many scientists are willing to use their power to promote their own political agenda. Cigarette company scientists used to testify to and write articles claiming that cigarettes don't cause lung cancer. But at no time in our history have government scientists prostituted themselves as much as they have in the Bush/Cheney administration.
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
47. K & R
:kick:
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-01-07 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
49. Empathic or not, Bieber and Socarides weren't bigots
Yet, Bieber and Socarides were not what I think of today as bigots, in that it appears that their work was motivated by real empathy towards the homosexuals whom they treated and conducted their research upon. In fact Bieber, as a military psychiatrist, spent much of his time defending homosexuals against punishments (for their homosexuality) meted out by the military, arguing that homosexuality was an illness rather than a crime, so homosexuals should receive treatment rather than punishment and dishonor for their homosexuality. That was actually a progressive view at the time – at least within the U.S. military. After all, classification as a mental illness is a step up from classification as immorality or a crime. Therefore, I feel that it is unfortunate that Dr. Bieber later became the target of such hatred for his views.

They weren't bigots. It was 1952, and they didn't know any better, nor had the zeitgeist come around yet that they COULD have known better.

My argument's not about bigory towards homosexuals, btw, but defining previous eras in modern terms. It's a form of ethnocentricity. If it's generally wrong to apply our values to people of other cultures, it's equally wrong to apply our values to people of other times (highlighted in the quote above).

The word "bigotry" implies that a person should know better. Would it be fair to accuse someone of bigotry against gays in 1952, when sexuality of any sort was just barely coming out into the open (out of the closet?), of bigotry? Ignorance, maybe, but still the ignorance of a child.

Maybe this is why the right wing always gets so pissed about "moral relativism?"
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
52. Thank you for that
I knew that homosexuality was removed from the DSM but I did not know the history behind the change. Nice lesson. :)
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
54. You use the term "homosexual preference(s)" twice
Continuing to use this incorrect term helps explain why people get confused about homosexuality and keep calling it a choice. "Preference" implies we choose to be homosexual. We do not. Homosexuality is not something we have or something we choose. We say, "I am gay," not "I choose to be gay." Being gay is very simply what we are, and it is not a preference or a choice.

Please stop classifying what we are as a preference.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. I don't believe at all that it is a choice
But I don't understand how preference can be equated with choice. Choice implies a conscious act of choosing to do something. Preference implies no such thing. How can one "choose" to prefer something? Why is "preference" any different than "orientation"?
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Orientation means you were born that way and that's the way it is
Preference means it is something you prefer as if you have a choice in the matter. For example, I can't say I prefer men to women because women do not even enter the equation for me sexually. So, even though it is impossible for me to say that I prefer men (because there is no choice for me), I CAN say, however, that I prefer tall men or dark men or hairy men, etc.

To clear up the confusion, the term sexual orientation came into use when the APA said we were not a mental disorder anymore. Sexual preference is not only wrong, it is inaccurate.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. Preference
As a heterosexual, I say that I prefer women. When I say that, that doesn't mean that men enter the equation or that I have any choice in the matter. I know for a fact that I don't have any choice in the matter, just as you know that you don't have any choice in the matter. We agree completely on that. Still, I consider it a preference.

What else would I say other than that? I would never say that I'm "oriented" towards women because that sounds so unnecessarily scientific for ordinary conversation.

If people use preference to mean choice, they are clearly distorting the term as to its normal English use.

I see it very much as the same issue as the difference between "liberal" and "progressive". Republicans have distorted the meaning of the word "liberal". They use it to mean "baby killer" or "weak" or "moral relativism" or "pacifist" or "irresponsible spending". It means none of those things. Yet because conservatives have distorted the meaning of the term that we use to describe ourselves, many have switched to another name -- "progressive". I think that's a mistake. It means that we're letting them control the dialogue by acceding to their definitions, which are clearly distorted. I continue to refer to myself as a liberal, and I say F*** the fact that Republicans use it as a perjorative term and claim it to be something it's not.

By changing our name from liberal to progressive we allow them to define the terms of the debate. By changing the word preference to orientation just because Republicans use preference to mean choice, we do the same thing. We accede to their claim that preference is a choice, which it clearly is not according to its normal English usage.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. If you say that you "prefer" women, I get the idea that men are also a possibility for you,
just not the preferred one.

It's like saying "I prefer coffee in the morning" , but that doesn't mean you won't drink orange juice on occasion.

Are you bi?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. Preferences come in all degrees
Some preferences can be weak and therefore changeable from one day to the next.

Other preferences are so strong that they are unalterable. In the case of sexual preference, that is usually, if not always the case. With the good majority of people, their preference for one sex or the other is so strong as to be unalterable and something which would not allow them to "choose" the other sex for sexual purposes. I don't imagine that bi-sexuals are much different in that regard, in that they have a preference for sex with either sex, and they have no choice in that, just as the rest of us don't. Though I don't really claim to have a full understand of that.

My statement simply refers to my understanding of the word preference, which can be very weak or extremely strong, to the point that one would never go against that preference. For example, I prefer not to drive 150 per hour through a crowded town. That is an extemely strong preference, perhaps as strong as my sexual preferences.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #64
73. And hence, the problem with the word "preference"
There is no way to tell what "degree" you mean when you use it. As a scientific term, then, it's useless. It's imprecise.

This is why "orientation" is a much better term for now.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. A great many words are characterized by different degrees
Yet that doesn't make them useless, either in ordinary conversation or in scientific articles. I'll bet you couldn't find a scientific article that isn't filled with such words.

In scientific articles, mathematical equations and terms are used for precision. But they also contain discussions, and the discussions are filled with words with imprecise meaning. That's the way language is.

I agree that "sexual orientation" may be better for some purposes, since it is more precise. But what would you say if someone unfamiliar with the term asked you to explain the meaning of the term? I would say that it denotes a preference for one sex or the other that is so strong that it would be extremely difficult or almost unthinkable to have sexual relatons with the other sex.

I'm not disagreeing with the use of that term. Mainly I was making the point that preference does not imply choice -- and by the same token, we have no choice over our preferences -- even our weaker preferences. I may prefer to go to the beach next Monday. I don't choose to prefer that, I just do. I can choose what I do, but I can't choose what I prefer to do.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #76
104. Yes, and that makes them ambiguous enough to cause nasty debate
..
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. I didn't know Republicans prefer "preference"
Since the APA prefers "orientation," I asumed that it was also the agreed-upon designation in the scientific community, as it is has been for decades in the LGBT activist community. Since you are an endocrinologist who prefers "preference," obviously there are exceptions.


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. There is a difference between use of words in everyday conversation and in scientifice reports
Not only that, but frequently the terms used in scientific circles are used to obscure the meanings of their reports, as if to purposely make them unintelligible to the public. To some extent that is because it gives them an ivory tower type of aura to their work. I do not agree with that approach.

As part of my job I write articles for scientific journals, but I also write articles for the public, since I work in the public health field. Whenever I write articles for scientific journals I try to the extent possible to write in a language that the public would find intelligible as well, because that is only fair, and it helps the public to better understand what the scientific community is doing.

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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. What scientific journals do you write for?
They let you get away with saying sexual preference?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #72
75. I was speaking about terminology in general
I've written for the American Journal of Public Health, the American Journal of Epidemiology, Interventional Cardiology, and several lesser journals -- not about sexuality, however.

I don't know what if any journals would accept the term "sexual preference", although come to think of it I may have used that term in some of my articles about AIDS/HIV.

My only point is that in many scientific fields they use words that are unnecessarily complex or opaque to the public, and that I try to the extent possible when writing for scientific journals to use the most plain language that I can to get my points across. Sometimes they write back suggesting changes in this or that, including the terminology I use, so I revise my manuscripts accordingly and send them back.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Sexual preference is plain English and sexual orientation is not?
If you say so.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. Here's something else -- from Wikipedia
"The term sexual preference has a similar meaning to sexual orientation, but is more commonly used outside of scientific circles by people who believe that sexual orientation is, in whole or part, a matter of choice."

Exactly. It's used by people who believe that sexual orientation is a matter of choice. And in using it like that they distort the clear meaning of the term in their attempt to make arguments, by implying that preference implies choice. Preference is NOT choice, but those wishing to argue that sexual preference (or orientation) is a matter of choice use it in that manner.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #70
74. So sexual orientation is a matter of choice, some say
But what they really mean, their hidden meaning, is that sexually preference is a matter of choice.

In sum, what you're saying is that preference is not a choice but orientation is. Do I understand you correctly?

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. No, that's not what I'm saying
The article I quoted from Wikipedia says that "sexual orientation" and "sexual preference" are similar... BUT those who wish to argue that homosexuality is a matter of choice often use the term "sexual preference".

I agree with both of those statements. "Sexual orientation" and "sexual "sexual preference" have similar meanings. The only difference, as Nikki Stone pointed out in a post above, is that "sexual orientation" usually denotes an absolute preference, whereas preference comes in different degrees and can be either strong or weak. If it's used in a sentence where it's not specified whether it's strong or weak then it can be taken to mean either. That doesn't make it incorrect, it just makes the sentence less precise. But we use sentences like that all the time in our conversations with one another.

My main point however is that we do not choose our preferences. We are generally free to choose our actions, but not our preferences, whether sexual or not. I prefer chocolate ice cream to vanilla ice cream. I didn't choose to prefer that, I just do. I can choose to eat vanilla ice cream, and sometimes I do (if I put chocolate on it).


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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #77
93. I too, have a problem with "preference"
I prefer to use the word "orientation". You can dance around it all you want , but you cannot rehabilitate the useage
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #60
67. I Can Grok On That ... Sort Of
Preferences, for me, works better as "sexual preferences." The word "sexual" must be in there, as it is an element of our make-up that decides itself.
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #54
69. It's not a choice
Some people prefer people of the opposite gender. Some people prefer people of their own gender. I don't think that makes it sound like a choice.
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
58. I am by no means an expert on this subject,
but I don’t think I could ever be convinced that genetics has nothing too do with it. There is much fascinating research and scientific conclusions as to how life develops from the single cell to a full grown individual in the physical sense through the testing of DNA, but as far as I know (and I am probably wrong ) there is little more than hypothesis on the genetics of the psyche. I.e. for example, a geneticist can test one’s DNA and determine the sex of the individual but they can’t yet determine the sexual preference, although as mentioned up-thread the size of the hypothalamus mite prove to have some correlation with orientation. That would suggest that if science could find and isolate that particular gene they might have an insight into ones psyche as far as sexual orientation. Hopefully the most beneficial research of that type will find the gene that gives us the ability to have compassion and tell whether its working or not, this would be a grate tool in identifying some individuals with out a conscience or the ability to feel remorse or guilt for crimes that harm others, such as the unelected psychopaths that are now occupying the White House, who incidentally are for more dangerous to mankind than sexual preference will ever be…
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. Another way to assess the role of genetics is to study identical twins to see
how similar they are with regard to certain traits, such as sexual orientation. See post # 16:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1021934&mesg_id=1022344
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DeeDeeNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
65. By way of perspective, we should keep in mind
that there is homosexuality in the animal kingdom in roughly the same proportions as the general human population.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
86. Just Sayin'
I hate being talked about like some THING under a microscope...just sayin'


...oh and I haven't read all the posts but in case anyone mentions the "naturalness" of heterosexuality due to the having babies thing... That is THE most inane argument of all. Guess what. My uterus did not fall out because I am a lesbian. The difference is, if I get pregnant, it's because I've decided it would be a good thing for my life and that I have something to offer the child....not just because someone forgot the rubbers.
Lee
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