Paul Wellstone was a "Pragmatist".. I love Pres Obama's Pragmatism

[Cha]

to get a rock solid foundation in spite of the rwhack fools set to destroy him just as I loved Senator Wellstone's pragmatism in going forward.

<snip>

'Russ Feingold likes to wrap himself in the mantle of Paul Wellstone’s legacy. Those of us who admired Paul Wellstone and understood his philosophy find the Feingold/Wellstone comparisons offensive. Wellstone fought for liberal principles and wasn’t afraid to criticize bad policy and bad bills. That’s where the similarities end. Wellstone understood the basic fact that all no votes are equal. He understood that a pragmatic half of a loaf was better than the purity of no loaf at all. As his friend( Frances Fox Piven) writes:

But to be pragmatic is not a bad thing. It is not the same as rank opportunism. To the contrary, pragmatism is the very essence of a political calling, for it means to make the most of the means available to further the ends of politics. The question always is, what ends? Paul viewed politics as a moral enterprise, grounded in basic convictions about democracy, equality, community, and mutuality. Those convictions guided his career in the Senate and shaped the compromises he made.

We need more of Wellstone’s pragmatism and less of Feingold’s rank opportunism. Maybe then we wouldn’t be facing the defeat of financial reform at the hand of the junior Senator from the state of status quo."

<more>
http://bluewavenews.com/2010/06/28/feingold-will-vote-to-protect-wall-st-from-financial-reform/

[Peacetrain]

1. Cha I have had this discussion with more than one person in DU about Paul Wellstone

The first time I saw Senator Wellstone, was when he was first running for the senate, and he was at Turkey Days in Worthington Mn. giving an old fashioned stump speech.

Senator Wellstone was a man of great principle.. But he also understood that sometimes, you have to go back and forth in the messiness of politics.

He was not this puritan of thought who would blow up his constituents and their needs (figuratively) if he could not get 100% of what he was shooting for.

He would take the 80% and come back with a different plan to snag the other 20%. He was much more a problem solver than people are remembering his as.

[CBR]

2. The ever-popular revisionism.

Just like with FDR (who, FWIW, I think was the greatest President) but ignoring the Internment is appalling.

[Cha]

3. Definetly knew how to work with people and

"much more of a problem solver than" somepeople are remembering him as.

The ones who really knew him have no difficulty as opposed to those who are only using him to further some agenda.

[treestar]

4. It's the essence of having to work with other people

Taking a hard line stance may be called for at times, but rarely.

[NJmaverick]

5. Good point, you are correct

the late great Wellstone would have been on our side.

[bobburgster]

7. I agree....

:-)

[Missy Vixen]

6. Paul Wellstone was a fire-breathing liberal

He worked his whole career for progressive causes, and for the people he served.

He was my hero.

"Pragmatism", my ass.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[Missy Vixen]

13. I've been here since 2001

I am a Democrat.

I have held public office.

I've put in more volunteer hours than most likely 90% of the rest of DU.

Do not tell me where I "belong".

[Cha]

14. You don't belong in the BOG..we know

that Paul Wellstone was a Pragmatic Liberal and we support President Obama here. That's why it's called the Barack Obama Group.

With our Mission Statement being..

Skinner ADMIN (1000+ posts) Wed Dec-06-06 04:09 PM
Original message
Welcome to the DU Barack Obama Group

The mission of the Barack Obama Group is to discuss information and news about the life, career, accomplishments, and presidency of Barack Obama; to provide a haven for those members of Democratic Underground who support the president and his policies; to discuss President Obama's policy positions, speeches, interviews, and other public appearances; to discuss President Obama's political campaigns; and to discuss the causes which President Obama has championed, including health care reform and ending the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Those who have a generally negative view of President Obama and his administration, support his defeat in the 2012 presidential election (in primaries or the general election), or who are generally supportive of those who do, are not welcome in the Barack Obama Group.

[Missy Vixen]

15. I said nothing about President Obama

I have a lot to say about your mischaracterization of the life and the career of Senator Paul Wellstone, however.

[Cha]

17. It's not only my characterization ..it's from people who knew him

well and the evidence of his Pragmatically Liberal life's work.

[sandnsea]

25. More Wellstone Votes

Just a few yes votes.

H R 3295: H.R. 3295 Conference Report; Help America Vote Act of 2002
H R 5005: Byrd Amendment No. 4644; To provide for the establishment of the Department of Homeland Security, an orderly transfer of functions to the Directorates of the Department, and for other purposes.
H R 5005: Lieberman Amdt. No. 4694; To establish the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, and for other purposes.
On the Motion to Proceed: Motion to Proceed to Consider H.R. 5005; Homeland Security Act of 2002
H.R. 5010, as amended; Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2003
H.R. 4775 Conference Report; 2002 Supplemental Appropriations Act for Further Recovery From and Response to Terrorist Attacks on the United States (Afghanistan War)
On the Cloture Motion: Motion to Invoke Cloture on S. 2673; Public Company Accounting Reform and Investor Protection Act of 2002 (gasp, a partial reform bill)
S 2673: Lott Amdt. No. 4188; To deter fraud and abuse by corporate executives. (He voted with Lott on legislation?!?)
HR 3162 The Patriot Act

[Cha]

27. Thank you for these votes of Paul Wellstone's,

sandnsea..that speak for themselves.

He was a Democrat just like President Obama who worked and works with people to get things done..maybe incrementally but Progess is made.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[sandnsea]

26. Sure it can, probably should have "OT" on it

And the responses can stay here too as long as they don't become disruptive.

[treestar]

28. Then you bring it up where you can respond; no one stops you

from discussing it anywhere on DU you want to discuss it. The BOG has another purpose. It is not here to make you cry - it's here for Obama supporters. There are other groups for anyone else you might have supported. If you want to argue Wellstone was a loony perfectionist who never voted for any bill that was unpure, you can do that in GD all day if you want.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[Cha]

33. That's Blue Wave News and just because they don't

trash Democrats like fire dog lake does not mean they don't have a valid point of view. It is Paul Wellstone's friend Frances Fox Piven who is quoted talking about Paul Wellstone being a Pragmatist..so your trying to trash the source is not going to work.

[HughMoran]

35. You can respond here. The fact that you can't be nasty here might be an impediment

:think:

[Cha]

36. Good point..

We will be keeping it civil in this forum.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[DevonRex]

10. +1. Yes he was.

Amen.

[Cary]

We're fire breathing-liberals working for progressive causes.

What are you?

[NJmaverick]

11. You are badly mistaken. Many of the best liberal were pragmatic

you are under a terrible misconception that liberal and pragmatism are mutually exclusive. You couldn't be further afield of the truth. The tip off was your comment about Wellstone working. That marks him a a pragmatic liberal as opposed to the head in the clouds get nothing done liberal.

[HughMoran]

12. You think being pragmatic or 'practical' is antithetical to liberal thinking?

:wow:
That's nonsensical!

[Cha]

19. Paul Wellstone was a Fire Breathing Pragmatic Liberal..

Not sure what your "ass" has to do with it.

[Political Tiger]

21. A "fire-breathing liberal" who voted for DOMA. n/t

[dflprincess]

29. A vote he publicly repented

and said he wouldn't make again. Of courese, he was willing to listen to the people he hurt with that vote - and they apparently believed his regrets as the Stonewall DFL did endorse him in 2002 and they helped set up a scholarship in his name after his death.

[Political Tiger]

40. Which shows he was not an infallible God as some

try to make him out to be, and that he, like every other human being on this planet, made mistakes in his life. It's interesting how some will forgive the mistakes of some but not of others, if you know what I mean, which is questionable.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[Cha]

44. We are Obama's base..here in the BOG and elsewhere..

I have many friends who know exactly how much the President is helping our country.

So here you are in the BOG disingenuously calling our President a sellout..how sad for you.

[DevonRex]

45. You need to read Skinner's mission statement. It's a sticky at the top of the board. nt

[Political Tiger]

46. Obama is willing to listen to those who disagreed with him (which

people like you criticize him for doing) and to learn from his mistakes. And if you are implying that Obama "continually sell(s) out his base" you are full of shit. For one thing, Wellstone was never president, his base was his constituency at home, whereas Obama is the president and his constituency is the American people.

How ironic that people like you bitched and whined when Bush only played to his extremist conservative base but now bitch and whine because Obama does doesn't emulate Bush when it comes to politics! Do you not see your hypocrisy?

[Born_A_Truman]

16. HOW THE RURAL POOR GOT POWER: NARRATIVE OF A GRASS-ROOTS ORGANIZER

http://www.upress.umn.edu/excerpts/Wellstone_how.html

They would have failed because Paul was pragmatic, and that is what made him a good politician. To be politically effective in the Senate, and to get reelected, Paul had to deal with the scant opportunities that came his way in the grimly conservative era. That meant he had to calculate and compromise, making decisions that were the more painful because they were necessarily made in the midst of uncertainty. You get a sense of this pragmatism in this account of his work with OBRC. He picked his battles there, as he later picked them in the Senate. He was willing to compromise, to take half a loaf. These were hard decisions, some of them were probably wrong, and right or wrong he was often criticized not only by the right but also by many of us on the left who ignored the constraints of real-world politics.

But to be pragmatic is not a bad thing. It is not the same as rank opportunism. To the contrary, pragmatism is the very essence of a political calling, for it means to make the most of the means available to further the ends of politics. The question always is, what ends? Paul viewed politics as a moral enterprise, grounded in basic convictions about democracy, equality, community, and mutuality. Those convictions guided his career in the Senate and shaped the compromises he made. Moreover, it was because he though that most people shared those convictions, if only he could reach out and communicate with them, that he had the confidence and the fervor to mount three successful grassroots Senate campaigns in the face of bitter and powerful opposition. This morally grounded pragmatism shines through this book about Paul Wellstone's early work as a grassroots organizer in Rice County.

[Cha]

18. Thank you, Truman...they can deny it all they want

but that doesn't change reality or Paul Wellstone's history of Pragmatically getting things done.

[quiet.american]

20. It's hard to believe that the quality of "pragmatism" is now supposed to be undesirable.

Pragmatism:

Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
1 : a practical approach to problems and affairs (tried to strike a balance between principles and pragmatism)

http://mw4.m-w.com/dictionary/pragmatism

How else does *anyone* go about the work of solving problems, even in their own lives, without displaying pragmatism?

Long live pragmatism!

[Cha]

22. The beauty of it is..we don't have to claim Paul Wellstone

as one of our own..he was. I think he would have loved having Obama as President and would have worked with him and said when he disagreed..not gone off in some whiney snit like russ feingold.

[Cha]

24. WELCOME TO BLUE WAVE NEWS~MISSION STATEMENT~

"Blue Wave News is a community of Democrats working to further liberal causes, expose untruths, and draw attention to important local, national, and global issues."

~BOG MISSION STATEMENT~

Skinner ADMIN (1000+ posts) Wed Dec-06-06 04:09 PM
Original message

Welcome to the DU Barack Obama Group
Edited on Wed Jan-06-10 10:31 AM by Skinner

The mission of the Barack Obama Group is to discuss information and news about the life, career, accomplishments, and presidency of Barack Obama; to provide a haven for those members of Democratic Underground who support the president and his policies; to discuss President Obama's policy positions, speeches, interviews, and other public appearances; to discuss President Obama's political campaigns; and to discuss the causes which President Obama has championed, including health care reform and ending the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Those who have a generally negative view of President Obama and his administration, support his defeat in the 2012 presidential election (in primaries or the general election), or who are generally supportive of those who do, are not welcome in the Barack Obama Group.

If you have a problem with this..take it up with Skinner.

[dflprincess]

30. So pragmatic that he voted agains the IWR

even when every bit of advice he was getting told him he would lose the election if he did that. - A prediction that proved to be wrong as he got a big bump in the polls after the vote. He made that vote because he said in the end he had to live with himself.

Unlike some politicians, Wellstone learned to put principle ahead of his political life.

[quiet.american]

34. Obama also spoke out against the Iraq invasion when it was not popular to do so.

I'm not sure when "common sense" became an undesirable character trait - nor the ability to listen carefully, give-and-take, be practical, weigh consequences, etc.

The problem I have with those who blanche at the word "pragmatism" is that it makes zero sense to me that the only way you can prove you're a true liberal to a certain voting block is to vote "no" with the Republicans on every major Democratic initiative.

Somehow now, if you vote "no" with the GOP because "the bill doesn't go far enough" -- even though you yourself have never achieved the Holy Grail of crafting a bill that "went far enough" (see: Howard Dean and Russ Feingold, both of whom I was a strong supporter of in earlier days, but now consider them to be on the borderline of becoming cariacatures of themselves); somehow, voting "no" with Republicans makes one a true-blue liberal - more so than one's Democratic colleagues who worked long days and long nights to get a majority of progressive items into whatever legislation is on the table.

Bizarre.

Edited for my usual typos

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[azmouse]

38. Take it elsewhere.

You do not belong in the Barack Obama Group.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[quiet.american]

39. I know Obama wasn't a senator at the time. That's why I said he "spoke out" against it.

While still having ambition to run for higher office. Obama couldn't know which way the wind was going to blow on Iraq, but he took a public stand, stood up and said that it was wrong.

As for your bolded statement on Wellstone, being pragmatic and fighting hard for what you believe in are not mutally exclusive. That's the point I'm attempting to make. It doesn't have to be that you are either fighting hard for what you want, OR being pragmatic. One can be both at the same time.

Also, in terms of the statement you bolded, yes, you fight hard for what you want, but what happens if, as it does in reality, you don't get the exact legislation you envision, exactly the way you want it, with the approach to it exactly as you want - then what - screw it?, throw up your hands and let everything stay the same?

That translates to being "useless" in my book.


Edited for typos - one of these days I'll be able to type fast and perfect!

[Political Tiger]

42. The mission of the Barack Obama Group

is to discuss information and news about the life, career, accomplishments, and presidency of Barack Obama; to provide a haven for those members of Democratic Underground who support the president and his policies; to discuss President Obama's policy positions, speeches, interviews, and other public appearances; to discuss President Obama's political campaigns; and to discuss the causes which President Obama has championed, including health care reform and ending the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Those who have a generally negative view of President Obama and his administration, support his defeat in the 2012 presidential election (in primaries or the general election), or who are generally supportive of those who do, are not welcome in the Barack Obama Group.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=388&topic_id=1&mesg_id=1

[Cha]

31. Yeah, Paul Wellstone wasn't perfect..but, he was

Pragmatic just like President Obama..who is not perfect either.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[quiet.american]

48. Really? Why don't you search any of our names on DU and see how we -

- felt about him when he was alive? And how we mourned his death.

Your post is the biggest insult to Wellstone's memory in this thread.

[DevonRex]

50. Certainly no insults to his memory come from members of this group.

:hug:

[quiet.american]

52. Amen to that! nt

:patriot: :hug:

[Bobbie Jo]

53. You got that right.

:kick:

[DevonRex]

49. I loved the man. He knew how to get things done. This article about him

is wonderful, written by someone who actually knew him very well. You should read it, rather than attack us. Shame on you.

[azmouse]

51. So you came here to tell us to sit down and shut up...

Have a great day.

[HughMoran]

54. So only REAL American friends of his can speak for him? Talk about insulting!

The correct word to describe this sort of attitude, and this isn't directed at you specifically, is arrogant.

Also, NOBODY said Wellstone was a centerist - that's the 'put words in people's mouths' in your head speaking.

Wellstone was a pragmatic liberal Senator - and we ALL loved him for that. Insulting fellow Democrats who loved Wellstone and want to say so is not how we build a winning coalition.

[DevonRex]

55. The relevant part of Skinner's sticky in case you missed it:

Those who have a generally negative view of President Obama and his administration, support his defeat in the 2012 presidential election (in primaries or the general election), or who are generally supportive of those who do, are not welcome in the Barack Obama Group.

I'll assume that you weren't aware of the rules until now. But you cannot plead ignorance from now on.

[firedupdem]

57. I guess they have a thread going over there to try and get this

one locked. I'm sure they are taking turns commenting here.

[DevonRex]

58. Silly geese. We'll just ignore them and keep up our debate anyway.

No need to let anyone disrupt our conversations. I think this is a good thread. It's wonderful to recall what a pragmatic liberal can do. Just think what Wellstone could have accomplished if he had lived longer.

[Bobbie Jo]

56. Nice

"....this group would demonize him just as you demonize Feingold, Kucinich, and every other active Liberal Democrat."

This group? Really?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

btw....Welcome to the BOG! :hi:

[Number23]

59. Who has demonized Kucinich??

Most people either laugh at him or have never heard of him.

[Cha]

60. Kucinich came through and voted for the HCR! Bless his pragmatic Heart!

feingold continues to be in a snit and wouldn't help make the Financial Reform Bill better than it ended up..and is touting his voting with repubs in his campaign for re-election in Wisconsin.

So no, I don't like his idea of progress.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=388x23854

[Radical Activist]

61. Wellstone and Obama came from a similar background in community organizing.

They operate on many of the same basic set of principles. I wish Wellstone could have been President first, but I can only imagine what it would have been like to have Obama in the White House and Wellstone in the Senate. We'd be facing a very different picture right now.

[Cha]

62. I'm glad you brought that up..

I'd been thinking about their backgrounds in Community Organizing the last few weeks.

It would be so much different now with Paul Wellstone and Ted Kennedy in the Senate.

[Cha]

63. Barney Frank on President Obama..

NYC Liberal (1000+ posts) Wed Jul-28-10 11:04 PM
Original message

"Barney Frank on Pragmatism & President Obama:
Edited on Wed Jul-28-10 11:29 PM by NYC Liberal

Commencement Speech, School of Public Affairs (May 9, 2009)

"Understand that the more deeply you hold your ideals, the more you are morally obligated to be pragmatic. Because ideals that are not implemented do nothing but make you feel morally superior. They never fed a hungry kid, they never cleaned up a polluted river, they never built a road that got people anywhere. So yeah, you should be pragmatic after you are idealistic. Pragmatism in the service of idealism is what you need. Idealism without pragmatism is just a way to flatter your ego."


http://www.american.edu/media/20090509_School_of_Public...

He also had this to say about President Obama & the critics who think Obama is Superman and can just get any bill he wants passed:

"I would say to the president, look, I sympathize with President Obama. He’s been criticized by some of my liberal friends. We didn’t get a public option and we didn’t get the other things we wanted. That wasn’t his fault. The economic recovery bill, the stimulus — it wasn’t as big as it should have been. That wasn’t his fault. He couldn’t get the votes. But with regard to appointing Elizabeth Warren, that’s his decision. No one can stop him from making it. And I hope he will appoint her."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=388x24174

[NYC Liberal]

64. Being pragmatic and sensible is overrated anyway.

:rofl:

[Cha]

65. ..

Yeah, :smoke: :rofl: