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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:07 AM
Original message
Just Words. Just not Obama's.
 
Run time: 01:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M6x1H08aFc
 
Posted on YouTube: February 17, 2008
By YouTube Member:
Views on YouTube: 0
 
Posted on DU: February 18, 2008
By DU Member: displacedtexan
Views on DU: 3517
 
Side-by-side videos of the 2006 Deval Patrick/ 2008 Barack Obama "Just Words?" speech sections.

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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. For those at work
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desi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Didn't you get the memo?
"Patrick and Obama are friends. They frequently borrow each other's best lines."

They somehow left out the bullshit part. You just can't make this shit up.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. ooops. I got sent this instead.
But it's old and from April of last year.

<snip>
Axelrod says that his model for the Obama campaign came last year when Deval Patrick ran for governor of Massachusetts. There are many ways in which Patricks run and Obamas are similar: the optimism, the constant presence of the candidates biography, the combination of a crusading message of reform with the candidates natural pragmatism, the insistence that normal political categories did not apply, even the same, unofficial slogan, shouted from the crowds Yes. We. Can! But most essential is the way in which both of these campaigns came to use the symbolism that accompanies their candidates race, not by apologizing for it or ignoring it but by embracing the constant attention paid to the historic nature of the candidacy itself. The Democratic media consultant David Eichenbaum, whose candidate, Chris Gabrieli, lost to Patrick and Axelrod in Massachusetts, told me: What they were able to do in the Patrick campaign was similar to what theyve been able to do with Obama. The campaign managed to energize the grass roots, but there was a sense of idealism and hope and being able to break that historic barrier that was very unifying and reached out beyond liberals or the base. It became a movement that took on a life of its own.
<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/magazine/01axelrod.t....
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. Oh, dear god. HE STOLE THE SLOGAN??????
So, basically, Obama is a manufactured image already used to elect somebody else. Oh, well. That Axlerod is sure good at his job.

CHANT HOPE AND CHANGE SOME MORE FOLKS! YELL YES WE CAN AT THE TOP OF YOUR LUNGS!
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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Hillary's been caught ripping off slogans and using them in her speeches too
She ripped off the whole "Change" thing from Obama, stole quite a few other lines from him and oh yeah ripped off Edwards blantantly one day after a debate and started crying over the line ("this is personal to me"). She's as blatant and unoriginal as it gets and she and her supporters have the gall to accuse someone else of line theft? Wow does this woman need a reality check.

Rp
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
39. Because Obama is the very first
politician to ever use "Change"?

:shrug:
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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. No he's not but it looks ridiculous when your opponent is using it and all of a sudden you change
your campaign to use it. That's blatant. There's a litany of campaign thievery that Hillary has been involved with. Look around, I'm sure it's not hard to find the list on here today.

Rp
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. you miss the larger picture
It is of course ridiculous to dismiss Obama for a few lines of speech and call it plagiarism.

It is not so ridiculous to call his 'authenticity and newness' into question when his entire campaign is lifted whole cloth by David Axelrod off of his former client Deval Patrick.

I have no problems with Obama even doing THAT --but he is not some new visionary with a new outlook.

He is a politician. Gifted in his delivery and with some snappy packaging, but he is no different than Hillary except in terms of the most cosmetic applications.
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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. And maybe it's exactly that cosmetic application we need to win.
Hillary is toxic and draws anger and rage which fuels Republicans and agitation and apathy which cools liberals. Maybe we just need a better cosmetic application to get a moderate Democrat elected right now.

Believe me Obama's not my first choice but Al Gore stayed home, Edwards dropped out and that cosmetic application looks a lot better than a loss in November.

Rp
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. If it holds.
Then maybe you are right.

I don't know for a fact that it will though, and I frankly have my doubts.
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Sonnenschein Donating Member (251 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
49. Hope and Change were the key words of Bill Clinton's campaign.
I thought inspiration means you say something original. These days rehashing old slogans is seen as inspirational.
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Ahmed Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. Here's one for you...
I am pre-attributing this to whoever may have thought this up
before me.....MILLI HUSSEIN VANILLI!

It's plagiarism, just like Biden. 

Maybe the bigger issue is that Axlerod is pulling the strings
on 2 puppets....Patrick and Obama. So we may not elect an
African-American President after all. If Axlerod is the new
Rove, then why didn't the Clintonistas figure it out earlier? 
Sigh..another "lesser of two evils" election......
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. This is the third OP on the subject that I have easily found....more?
I will say the same here as I did to maddiejoan's post/thread: Sen. Clinton says Obama uses "cheap words" and now I find they must be really important! Which is it?

yesterday's post on the same subject:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Using words and phrases from the Constitution or famous people is an old method of reminding people of important words in our history. I think Sen. Obama differentiates himself in his manner, sincerity, and temperament of his delivery.....that is all. IMHO
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. "Sincerity??? With someone else's slogans? Someone else's words?
Sweetie, I have this bridge, so cheap. You will love where it takes you.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
5. Well, well, well. How interesting is this? Didn't something like this take Joe Biden down in his
first Presidential Campaign run? I do believe it did.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. There is a difference between taking
the writings of someone else verbatim and using it, as opposed to saying similar things, and using quotes from people that are used by the general public. The quotes than Patrick and Obama used are easily recognized because they are part of the US lexicon, and used by thousands of people.

Look up what plagiarism means.
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Ashy Larry Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
7. Dear Hillary fans,
Do you all think that Hillary should credit Mark Penn at the end of her speeches?
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Last time I checked, Penn wasn't the governor of MA.
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Ashy Larry Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. What is your point?
Penn writes lines for Hillary, Patrick writes lines for Obama. I would chose Patrick over Penn anytime. Why does it matter if he is a Governor? They are good friends.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Penn didn't deliver the campaign speech 2 years before the candidate did , did he?
That's my point.

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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. Both had Axelrod, and they ALL use speech consultants.
We all know that ALL candidates use speech writers and consultants because there are so many speeches to give. Hillary uses them. So does Obama. Obama is certainly very original in general, and it was Hillary who attacked his speeches essentially as "just words," and in fact has gone so low as to call them "cheap talk." Obama responded, sure, very similarly to how Patrick did, but we must also remember that the quotes he gave are indeed famous and widely known rhetorical fixtures in this country. They are OFTEN quoted. You should be criticizing Hillary for going negative, not Obama for responding in an appropriate manner even if a speech consultant suggested similar lines most likely suggested to another politician who is a friend and supporter.
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. Can you imagine if Hillary was caught using one of Bill's speeches from the '92 or '96 campaign?
It would be a huge story, as it should. Of course, they could always use the Obama campaign line about how they're good friends, and they use eachothers good material.

So much for "change" and ending politics as usual.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. Oh, the hysteria. No one's going to cover this, are they?
Because Obama has been anointed the messiah and he must lead us. Oh, joy. All those brains and not one original thought.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. How IGNORANT to say such crap.
Yeah, a few lines from a speech and so that speaks to the ENTIRE person? Heck, I wish I had a dime for the MANY lines Hillary has had written for her and were UNORIGINAL. Please get real. This is politics. They all use these speech writers and consultants. Hillary's crowds are now STEALING Obama's "Yes we can" line bigtime with Hillary saying "Yes we will." Give me a break.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
14. so it was plagiarism
is there more to the story? did he attribute? i notice speaker number one got a much greater response from the crowd. huh.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. OMG!
He plagiarized MLK, Thomas Jefferson, and FDR, too! Why isn't anyone talking about that!!!111
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Skinner, your bias is showing.
You know me; I don't like either one of them, but Joe Biden got booted for using a small portion of an obscure BRITISH politician's speech.

Obama is constantly put forward as a master orator. It would be better for him if he used his own words and phrasing.
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calmblueocean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Patrick collaborated with Obama on the speech. That's the difference.
Political speeches are by their nature collaborative works in which the writers are understood to remain uncredited. Patrick was one of the writers of Obama's response, voluntarily supplying some of the language Obama used in the speech. That's the difference between Obama and Biden's situation.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Two people, same speech, doesn't work.
I repeat, I don't like EITHER of them, but the claim is: "Obama is an ORATOR, He INSPIRES with his speeches."

Then he should at least stick to the first time stuff from his speech writers: it looks better, and if he goes up in November as the Candidate, He had better have his God Damned DUCKS in a row.

Same goes for Clinton.
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calmblueocean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. You can argue how it makes you feel. What you can't argue is that it was plagiarism.
I agree with you in that I'd be happier if Obama had tried something different.

But it ain't plagiarism to have others help you write a political speech, even if they offer words they've used before.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Real hair splitter there.
Think the McCain people will see it that way? I don't.

He's getting closer to the nomination. Time to watch one's step, wouldn't you say?
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calmblueocean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. It's not splitting hairs. It's just a matter of getting the truth out there.
I don't think Obama has handled this well, primarily because he's already accepted the frame that the argument is about "stolen" political language, when he never stole a thing. I also think it was rather dumb of him to track Patrick's language so closely in the first place. It's not about what McCain will do with it, but the fact that most folks will never pay enough attention to get the whole story, and will believe the perception instead of the reality.

But the reality is, there wasn't any plagiarism. Even if the wingnuts believe otherwise, that's the reality.

The one good thing I think may come from this is the gradual transformation from "Obama the Myth" to "Obama the Man". I've always been wary about supporting Obama the Myth. Nobody's *that* perfect. But I can support Obama the Man. He's a good man, and a decent human being who is trying to take this country in a direction it needs to go in. The death of his perfection may be a good thing in the end.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. If he is going on ORATION, then he needs to be more careful.
A lot of us still don't see a DIRECTION he's going in. There's a lot of trust me, listen to the words: which makes one skeptical if the words are not HIS and HIS ALONE.

This is the conundrum: if he wants to carry it on charisma, it has to be HIS, not someone else's. This might work for him, but only if it's HIS.

You can call it "FRED" if you want, but paraphrasing someone else's speech to that degree of congruity is by definition PLAGIARISM, and if you think he's going to sail in there without some support from some groups that will look at that askance, they you're kidding yourself.

This is not a slam; it is CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, something his CAMPAIGN should be smart enough to be doing FOR him.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Good grief.
I can't even make a joke without someone accusing me of being biased.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Everyone's QUITE TOUCHY these days.
Last joke I made started a two day flame fest. You will have to admit that some of us "oldsters" might expect verbal if not actual impartiality. While our candidates were going down in flames we got a lot of "good riddance," and since then the slightest "aspersion" seems to be taken the wrong way.

Don't be offended. You're just being held to a little higher standard. That's not all bad.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
56. Welcome to the insane train.
It's all about one or the other and God help you if you cross lines.

:eyes:
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avrdream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
44. Agree with you on that Tyler.
Except that I do like Hillary.

I thought Skinner said the mods were officially neutral in the primaries?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. Isn't that koolaid tasty? Have some more.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. What we have here is a failure to communicate
Seems to me the common thread here is Axelrod. I know I take things that have worked for previous campaigns I've run and used them in subsequent ones. The way I see it, why re-invent the wheel?

Campaign managers, we simply can't be trusted I guess. ;-)

Julie

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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Naw it's SPEECHWRITERS that can't be trusted. n/t
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
29. Talk is cheap
especially when the words are borrowed from somebody else. This isn't about campaign slogans, that's very different than Obama's lifting whole passages from Patrick's speeches and using them as his very own talking points.

K&R
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. silly, you can't have it both ways, either words are important or they are not
Hillary really should not have picked THIS issue to complain about Obama "lifting" words...I mean...don't you see how your circular argument makes it look bizarre to thinking adults?

Words are meaningless or they are not. Trying to have it both ways makes us all giggle.
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malik flavors Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
32. Hillary's guilty also??
Edited on Mon Feb-18-08 03:19 PM by malik flavors
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
33. That's it? That's ALL IT WAS? Are you kidding me?
Isn't she trying to have it both ways? Words are meaningless UNLESS you quote someone else then they are end of the world material?

Sheesh. She should apologize for her Iraq vote and campaign with a message of her own.

Oh, and fire Wolfson and Penn.

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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Hillary LIED on national TV. How do you explain that ??
Recall the famous debate when Hillary was clearly quoted as having told a newspaper that Gov. Spitzer's plan New York plan to provide driver's licenses to illegal aliens "makes sense," and then tried to twist her way out of it by saying that she was opposed to that policy. Flip, flop, LIE ! Tongue twist, parse, evade, and verbally triangulate. She does it CONSTANTLY. Give me a break you Hillary people. Give us all a break !
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
38. Surely you're aware that nobody gives a shit about this....
... except those initiating it.

I thought Hillary was all about substance. I guess not.
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avrdream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. Actually, it is getting mainstream media coverage.
Take a look at New York Times and MSNBC and CNN for starters.

:hi:
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. And not the kind you like. It blew up in your face.
Obama not only got permission to use the phrases from the speech, he even gave credit on occasion, even though the permission made that unnecessary.

Whoops! :nuke:
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ExPatLeftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #45
61. So the test of whether people care about something...
...is whether or not the issue gets MSM coverage?

So people really really really care about Paris Hilton and do not give a shit whatsoever about PNAC or the endless lies leading up to war, for example?

I think the media likes little squabbles like this BS and do not give a damn about the major issues or anything that requires more than 5 brain cells to understand...

Unfortunately, the last few weeks, DU looks about identical.

But I do not believe that that reflects the concerns of most voters. It is just sensationalism. I do not know a single person that cares in the slightest about this (outside of DU, where people are so shocked and outraged (or feigning it) over this non-issue).
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
40. Update: Obama admits he should've credited Patrick,and that he ad-libbed that part.

"Obama apparently ad-libbed the remark, which was not in his text."
link

"Obama admits lines deserved credit"
link

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Lopebalaguer Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. It's also possible that Patrick is lying about having given Obama permission
let's not forget that Patrick and Obama are friends, and they understand how sensitive this issue is, so Obama could have told Patrick to please say that Patrick gave Obama permission to use his words.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. I did some research. Obama's campaign is a total copy of Patrick's.
And David Axelrod created them both.

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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. Let's not forget that it doesn't matter. Patrick is the ONLY person whose opinion matters.
Nice try, Clintonistas. Threw another handful of shit against the wall, and, as usual, it didn't stick.
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WoodyM Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
52. The only thing Obama
has going for him is his ability to inspire people with his oratory. He stutters and stammers in debates or when asked direct questions. Now we find that the words he uses to inspire are not his own. :nopity:
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cloud75 Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
53. BUSTED!!!!
this is big...everyone will be talking about this tomrrow WOW.....
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cloud75 Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
54. he's not original n/t
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cloud75 Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
55.  I knew John F. Kennedy i was friends with John F. Kennedy
and Obama you are no John F. Kennedy--Hillary should use this line in the next debate...because according to Nobama supporters people use other's people lines and phrases all the time.
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lyonspotter Donating Member (751 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Welll...using other people's lines
is nothing new...Reagan never wrote a single speech in his entire tenure as POTUS
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
58. Does Political Plagiarism Matter to you?
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
59. One additional "word" - desperation
:rofl:
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ExPatLeftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
60. What a waste of time
To be honest, I saw very little difference between those speeches... But then again, I hear almost the same things or at least topics coming from almost all politicians. These same themes come up all the time, and some opposing partisan supporters try to pass that off as "plagiarism"? Give me a break.

Barack has a friend that helps him with his speech writing. BFD.

The HYSTERICS from both sides in this primary are just ridiculous. I wish people would quit freaking out over every damn leaf and try to see the forest.
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