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Rachel Maddow: W/ Jonathan Turley on Obama Torture Photo Decision

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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 11:59 PM
Original message
Rachel Maddow: W/ Jonathan Turley on Obama Torture Photo Decision
Edited on Thu May-14-09 12:14 AM by Hissyspit
 
Run time: 07:29
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4JphqRbT0E
 
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Posted on DU: May 14, 2009
By DU Member: Hissyspit
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MSNBC The Rachel Maddow Show - May 13, 2009: Turley says the 2nd Circuit court previously rejected all the arguments used today in his announcement that the administration would argue that the photos should not be released.

Turley: "The problem with having a lot more pictures is that it complete disassembles our previous arguments about Abu Ghraib. We protrayed a small group of peoples as hicks with sticks. And we knew they weren't... What these other photographs indicate... the idea that they were rogue operators is obviously wrong, if there are hundreds of other photos where they weren't involved."

"I think that the ACLU will ultimately prevail, and maybe that's what the Obama administration wants politically, is to be forced to release these photos as a political measure, but by doing this, by putting in this fight, by reversing it's earlier statement to the court, it makes a mockery of the system, it makes a mockery of this country."

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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. Turley just loves the sound of his own voice, and seeing himself on TV
I don't take people who supported the Clinton impeachment 11 years ago seriously...on anything.
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. How do you feel about Maddow who basically seemed to agree? n/t
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'll take Maddow seriously, not Turley
nt
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. You're a definite minority.I love Turley's insight.The only one with acurate law comments
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. He is a law professor but unlike many he goes after truth and not politicians.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. "We want our leaders to suppress information that reflects poorly on what gov. does"
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mystieus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. If by not releasing even one photo can save a soldier life from vengeful Iraqis don't release them
This guy is stupid, Its not about embarrassment but the safety of our troops
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elmerdem Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. It is not about safety or embarrassment!
It is about the rule of law!
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. And the life of each US killer is more important than the law, than pushing for peace in the region,
than the millions of Iraqi lives ruined or ended by OUR actions?

Disgusting.

As if the Iraqis don't have enough justifiable reasons to do anything they want to any American occupying their country.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. If the lives of the troops is the issue
we need to get them out of Iraq and if anyone had cared at all about them, they would never have voted for this war.

If the US demonstrates to the world that it will now, with a new administration, aggressively go after those who have so shamed its reputation, that would do more to save the lives of the troops than letting the world now the US intends to sweep these crimes under the rug.

The world has been watching and waiting to see when the US lives up to its claim that 'we don't torture'. If anything will inflame those who already know the crimes of the Bush administration, it will be to lose hope that Obama is going to address those injustices.

Sorry, but that argument just doesn't work in the real world.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. We're killing hundreds of Muslim citizens and occupying 2 Muslim countries
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. We're already inflaming them.Transparency and accountability is best.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Did U disagree when Obama said he would release them 2wks ago??
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Obama speaks in Eygpt in 2 mos about how we aren't against Islam so consider that
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Civil rights photos got action, Nam pics got action, Abu graib pics got action
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. All law breaking of gov inflames and puts our soldiers in danger...a poor excuse
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Read Greenwals, read court opinions, and see the weakness of Obama's lame excuses
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
47. It's not about saving lives!
The rest of the world already knows that we torcher - after all, prisoners talk and they have families. This is about keeping secrets from the American peoplse so as not to embarrass our fearless? leaders. :mad:
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
5. I think Obama should have said he'd delay indefinitely the release instead of saying 'not' releasing

at least it would give him some cover - but I think he does want them out but will let the Supreme Court take the heat if they get out or don't get out. he's smart even if it compromises his integrity a little too often to be that smart and play chess with American ideals
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
38. Placing himself above the court's decisions to release...not good
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. He'll lose again in court as he has no new arguments and this just delays it till after Eygypt trip
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SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
6. I know I'm going to get drilled repeatedly for this, but...
...I agree with Obama. Outside being submitted as evidence in a trail against individuals from the former administration, I just don't see what good can come from opening this wound once again by releasing these photos. We all know what happened. Do we really need to live it all over again?
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destes Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. You may be drilled but not by me.
I do, however, have one suggestion re:" "Do we really need to live it all over again?"

I would ask the German people. 60+ years after Nuremberg and they're still dealing with their own mass murderers. One thing they WILL tell you is that the winner calls the shots.

In our case will justice win? or will fear prevail?
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SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I concede the point, but it just seems to me that, by releasing yet more...
...pictures of what we already know went on there is only adding more insult to injury. If releasing these pictures allows the truth in its entirety, then I'm all for it. But, my sense is that we already know who was really calling the shots, we already know that this was more policy than "a few bad apples", and we know that Obama and/or Eric Holder probably have something up their sleeve. A couple of more things that have occurred to me:

1. Obama, by not releasing the photos, will force the ACLU to file a lawsuit for their release. A lawsuit they're likely to win. Perhaps that's his plan.
2. If photos similar to those we're already seen were released but taken in detention centers elsewhere, that would show the breadth of the problem and most certainly should
be released. I just don't see the use in drilling more at Abu Ghraib when we already know what's down there.
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destes Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. And time shall tell, my friend.
At some point, somehow, in the minds of us all, there will come the personal realization that we were complicit. Therein lay the importance of our understanding, in it's entirety, of the depth and breadth of this. Our sentience is at stake, you see.
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liberalcanuck Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
51. Yes, Agreed. Your second point really gets to the crux of it.
Edited on Thu May-14-09 09:40 PM by liberalcanuck
And Turley drove home the point I feel in the video quite well - that by releasing all those photos the argument that these acts were committed by "a few people" is totally obliterated. There are many criminals right now making decisions who were complicit in these crimes who've benefited from the cover of that lie.

I'm a huge admirer of Obama but I fear the ACLU is all we have left on this. I hope Obama is playing the long game as Andrew Sullivan has suggested but the cynic in me is very doubtful.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. That's just it...you DON'T know what happened.You did not see photos
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. You are being told that Gov needs to suppress 'for your own good, trust us'.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. So in future anything seen as horrible gov action will be hidden for your own good.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Let us be the judge of criminal activity by seeing the evidence...we're adults and responsible
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. This is stuff that happened in our name, represents us, and cannot be suppressed but dealt with
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Don't go hide in a corner and put fingers in ears.See what was done in your name
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
7. Turley is right
I am SHOCKED that soooo many people here have just bought the whole - it will endanger the troops - line from Obama. No, being in Afghanistan is what will endanger the troops. What is the goal there? Why are Dems OK with that war? It's NOT about human rights otherwise we'd have been in Rwanda and other various places in Africa. No, this is, once again, about oil. Yes. Oil. So another endless war for oil (pipeline this time - what's the objective in Afghanistan again?) where soldiers WILL die. Maybe these pics would be enough for the public to demand an investigation and might save us from a colossal clusterfuck in Afghanistan. Or maybe not. Regardless - I want the truth. Since when did we all start caring so little about knowing the truth?

Pipeline-Istan: Everything You Need to Know About Oil, Gas, Russia, China, Iran, Afghanistan and Obama -- http://www.alternet.org/audits/139983/pipeline-istan%3A...
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Iwillnevergiveup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
8. I gotta credit Jonathan Turley
who has helped keep this torture issue alive - it's really developed legs. Scapegoating a few low level grunts never did cut it. The Obama administration is being forced to deal with torture as it should, but I don't think they bargained for this much attention and this much light being shed.
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travelingtypist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. And Keith and Rachel who keep having him on.
While I do still trust Obama, I think the President is playing by the FDR rules -- "If you want me to do something, make me do it." I'm grateful Turley's is helping in that.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. I trust Prez O's judgment.
maybe that's what the Obama administration wants politically' or whatever
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MindMatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
14. Those pictures WILL endanger our soldiers ... IF
all we do is publish the evidence of the crimes, but don't prosecute the criminals.

The is the point that is being lost in this debate. The question is not if waterboarding is torture. Obviously it is. The question is not if pictures of our abuses enrage people. Of course they do.

The question is, what are we gonna do about it?

And if Obama's answer is "nothing", THAT is what endangers America and our troops.
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Exactly. nt
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. ....
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Check it out..
It's not up to Obama to push for prosecutions or investigations. We have other branches of government to do that. The AG doesn't work for the White House he works for the people. The president must stay out of the way and let others get to the bottom of it. If he doesn't he'll look like Bush with Gonzales.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
40. Exactly. BTW...handing out Bibles by soldiers like it's a crusade is more inflamatory
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. We don't need photos to tell us that people have been tortured.
The whole world knows that Bush and Cheney are guilty as hell. Cheney admitted that he and Bush knew and authorized detainees to be waterboarded. I do believe that releasing the photos may cause things to flare up and may cost the lives of some of our troops.

Then, the right-wing parrots will point the finger and blame the president. Look, I want everyone involved in authorizing, looking the other way and carry out these vile acts to be held accountable and prosecuted; Including some democrats who may have known. I say release the photos to the Congress and the Senate.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. We need the photos for JUSTICE to be served. You know that, don't you?
Abu Garib would have been denied and not investigated if it were NOT for the photos.

RELEASE THE PHOTOS NOW!
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. Fuck Holder. Turley for Attorney General.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
53. No thanks.
Turley thinks a blowjob in the Oval Office constitutes a "high crime". That's not the judgement I want.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Maybe he thought lying under oath was instead
So did I. I thought Clinton should have resigned.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
24. How did the last administration live with themselves it's icky enough now it's been handed to us.>
Edited on Thu May-14-09 04:13 PM by cooolandrew
I can part way understand President Obama's decision could be down to the flare up in Pakistan but this is all getting very messy. The truth is love, so the truth it must be. Love in the sense that you are honest to people you care about.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
25. You know what I saw in our President's eyes as he read that?
Someone saying something he knows is inherently wrong. I truly think our "Hope" for "Change" has been compromised by the same old evil that has infested Washington for decades.
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soryang Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
29. The defense contractors want to dictate DOJ policy
Turley is merely restating the law. Obama is trying to present the court with an impossible political dilemna. Repukes are against release, now dems are against release. We dare you to release these pictures. It's going to be a tough judge to order this, we need an American hero here.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
48. Turley is the conscience of the American People -
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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
49. "He's morphing into his predecessor"
Yikes! :scared:
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
50. K&R
:kick:
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
52. zzzz...
Edited on Thu May-14-09 09:47 PM by jefferson_dem
Didn't he already deliver this same rant...like at least four other times?

EDIT: D'oh. This was from last night's show. No wonder it sounded familiar.
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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
54. Obama is handling this horribly. He couldn't be doing a worse job at the moment on torture.
And what an upside world when you have those that admit to torture and support continuing the use of torture not being put on the stand. Instead they go after Pelosi who is against torture!

Just amazing and HUGE blunder by Obama.
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