Posted on YouTube: March 24, 2009
By YouTube Member:
Views on YouTube: 0
Posted on DU: March 24, 2009
By DU Member: Hissyspit
Views on DU: 11807
MSNBC The Rachel Maddow Show - March 23, 2009: Jon Turley makes impassioned case for prosecuting alleged torture.
"It's like a bank robber calling up and asking (the President) to debate bank robbery. The President would say 'listen fellow, that's a crime.' But of course he hasn't said that with Dick Cheney. He can't say that. Instead, he says, you know, 'how long will it take for us to reconcile our values.' These aren't just our values. They're the law. He should be saying 'what you are describing is a crime,' and if he would allow an investigation into well-defined war crimes, Dick Cheney wouldn't be making public statements, he'd be surrounded by criminal defense council.
And yet, the President refuses to allow the investigation ofwar crimes and we just found from the International Red Cross, also, the definitive body on torture, found that this was a real torture program and yet the President is having a debate with the guy over whether it was good policy."
get the truth out and obama will be a hero to people who are still deluded that the bushies were heroes. political suicide, no way. not only that, but politics should not be the consideration. justice and upholding the rule of law are much bigger issues.
22. I believe most people think Bush simply made the wrong choices.
If he wasn't actually in the room torturing people, then it is too far removed to put their heads around a "war crime" charge. They had Nixon on tape admitting to Watergate. Clinton, even though his impeachment was a circus, actually DID get the BJ. Bush's crimes are more abstract and hard to distinguish from simply irresponsible executive choices.
I know this sounds bad, but this is exactly how MOST Americans feel, even those that voted for Obama this time.
With regards to the racial angle. I believe furthermore that racial resentment will increase because it will be seen as a black man going out of his way to "punish" a white president. Obama is already "on probation" from many whites who barely got over their prejudices to vote for him. I know it sounds outrageous, but I feel in my heart that we are still not where we should be in race relations.
i just disagree. i have to get to work or i would elaborate, but i see that others have brought forth my same argument and quite well. i disagree with just about every point you made and reiterate that politics should be the least of obama's considerations: are we a country of men or a country of laws?
38. Where is your evidence that "many whites" who voted for
Obama have him "on probation" because of the color of his skin? Where is your evidence that whites who voted for the President would resent seeing the Bush administration prosecuted simply because the President is black?
If Obama decides not to pursue this issue he will be complicit. There is no way to argue around this as Dipshit and Darth have admitted to their crimes. They are known and documented. Obama doesn't have to drop everything to prosecute. He merely has to appoint a special prosecutor and let things take their course. Our POTUS is a very smart man, so I'm sure he understands how to delegate and multitask.
This issue is very pressing, even though you seem not to think so. Our credibility abroad is tattered because of the crimes of the previous administration. Who will ever listen to us again if we can't keep our own house clean? Furthermore, the Republicans, specifically the Neo-Cons, are down but not out and they will not show Obama gratitude if he lets this pass in the spirit of bipartisanship and looking forward. These criminals are a festering pus pocket which needs to be lanced. If their skulls aren't crushed once and for all, they will be back. Once investigations are underway and the people see the extent of the crimes there will be no way in Hell for the GOP to make a comeback. Sure, 20% of our braindead population will continue to support the agenda of these bastards, but 20% is not a danger to the Democrats. We must hammer this message over and over until something other than lip service is done.
I still see President Obama as a compassionate man with respect for the rule of law. I also don't believe he is naive so I can only hope that he is publicly low-key about this matter while privately pursuing it. If not, the next nightmare is pre-programmed.
45. so lets say your neighbor tortured and committed other crimes and you knew
So lets say your neighbor tortured and committed other crimes and you knew about it, and did nothing because his parents were going through a messy divorce.
Does that mean you are in the right?
Or should you be telling the proper authorities to arrest, investigate and prosecute him for his crimes?
And if you don't tell anyone about the crimes, are you also guilty of them?
I think you know the answer, and I'm quite sure Turley knows it. With President Obama's background I'm sure he also knows it, but will he do what is right?
Do we really believe that somehow Obama is going to be seen 'in the wrong' when Cheney is on trial for war crimes? Seriously? Only the the 23 percenters will think that and they already do. I can't stomach keeping the gloves on to make those folks happy, and find it appalling that anyone else could.
'there are more pressing issues', before each election since the criminal Bush administration took over this country.
'We need a majority' was the excuse in 2006 and then 'we need a bigger majority' after we won. The 'pressing issues' we were told were more important than impeaching the criminals, never did get taken care of as Bush vetoed every bill that gave the people anything, as anyone with a brain knew he would.
Now, we have control of all branches of government, and there's a new excuse??? Sorry, not buying, didn't buy the old ones either.
Clinton allowed the crooks from the Reagan administration to get off without prosecution and that disastrous decision led to them returning to power along with Bush.
Turley is absolutely right and I hope more people join him in demanding that the rule of law is applied to these traitors who practically destroyed this country, as it is to everyone else.
Do you want to apply the same standards to all criminals? Should we let murderers go eg, because they have families and other obligations?
What I'm annoyed by are people who enable these crimes by making excuses why a country like this cannot deal with its own criminals. And the fact that there aren't more Turleys demanding that justice be done.
As far as what people believe, the public was not told the truth. Prosecutions and trials will change the minds of many people when they learn the truth about these criminals. It should have been done long ago.
6 years ago the only place you could hear Turley was some very progressive group/ protest, etc.played by cspan in the middle of the night! Now he is on prime time. If you can catch and hold in your mind all the little pieces....................these docs. revealed, that person given a boost...........you can see there is a case building VERY SLOWLY. There is 60 or more years of criminal behavior and malefeasance to put forth. The fact that Obama choose not to attend the Gridiron dinner, and rub elbows with those who, many, have enabled this criminal behavior, instead spending time with his sweet & innocent children........and supportive family is GOOD! A hint, a clue................ There is a huge mass of cognitive distortion to clear away as a result of the propaganda that has been spewed, and firmly rooted in people, for all th ese years. I had an encounter today in the market, and I am supersensitive to the nuance. A man I worked witih on the 2000 census, told me at the checkout 'You better be careful, or you'll go to jail." It seems I have failed to glue my '09 registration stickers to my liscence plate in a timely fashion. ( They are tucked right in my wallet!) I haven't been more than 15 miles from my home for at least 3 months..............It has been a brutal winter, and I am 70. Not really about to kneel out there in the ice and snow, to do it. ( My knees are a little creaky too, made more so by the cold and damp!) We're a small town, think ANdy Griffin, and I know most of the cops, as I worked in the library for a stint. You might see in my yearbook." Miss goody 2 shoes, least likely to ever go to jail." But he is apeing this trendy populist TV CRAP! And until wewe get more Peace & Justice oriented people.............a more EVOLVED POPULATION.............Obama has to take it slowly! HE KNOWS, his laughter on 60 minutes, reminded me of Peter Pan........He knows all and has made a choice. He will be pushed by NO ONE! But He'll git er done! I'm sure COnyers and Waxman are having a field day working on it, Obama doesn't have to. And no I wasn't an Obamabot! I wanted Kucinich or Dean! NEVER FORGET.what happened to JFK when he clearly announced his intentions!
69. Well, I get your point about 'a more evolved population'!
Edited on Tue Mar-24-09 06:37 PM by sabrina 1
But a little more truth from people like Turley ought to take care of that. I don't think the population is dumb, but when TV 'News' is all they have access to, how could they know the extent of the crimes committed by the last administration?
However, you ARE right that just a few years ago, Turley and others like him, could not get a hearing on National TV and people who WERE telling the truth, like Donohue, a top-rated show at the time, were simply censored.
I guess that IS progress, but six years is a very long time to wait for even this small glimpse of the truth and I'm not as confident as you are that Obama is going to go after the previous administration. His statements about 'focusing on the future' rather than 'focusing on the past', when asked about investigating those crimes, doesn't inspire much confidence. But having said that, I hope I am wrong, and you are right.
You better put those stickers on your car, btw, we little people ARE subject to the law, unlike our elected officials ;-)
is blocking any investigations. This is different than dropping everything to prosecute Bush. Of course if you have no skin in the game it is easy to have a cavalier attitude toward the idea of Justice, and when it should occur.
As far as I am concerned if President Obama demanded justice and it led to the prosecution of Cheney,et al. and he only served one term then it would be well worth it. If Americans have come to the point where they are more loyal to their party than to the Republic and the laws that upon which it stands the nations future is in great jeopardy.
every day, every day, until the prosecutions are happening. like the DU thread. just keep pounding it home, just keep getting that information out there. i believe as a people america believes in the rule of law, and the bushies broke it and broke it and bragged about it and broke it some more, and justice demands that they pay.
33. when the person coined the phrase "offense is the best defense"
Edited on Tue Mar-24-09 07:49 AM by veganlush
...it's stuff like this that he had in mind. What Cheney is doing is a brilliant version of that concept. As long as he's on the offensive against Obama the general public, who aren't paying as much attention as we are, and the MSM, continue to see it as more or less a policy difference. Now, if he had left the country after the election to parts unknown, he would look guilty and we'd be after him.:banghead: And how long before the Democrats are perceived as accomplices?
35. DUers, when you get on the phone to call your rep. and senators,
.to show support of the President's budget,..mention the need for prosecutions of the bush administration. Take 15 minutes today and and call all three of them. If you ask for a response, they'll take your name and address to mail one to you. I recommend asking for a response because I think it's more likely that your message will get through...If all DUers called today, how many calls would that be?
If the traitors are not held to account, then this will be the pivot point for America's final descent in to global irrelevance.
I guess the Obama admin is using the post WW2 Emperor Tojo model. He was allowed to continue as a figure head in Japan as part of the negotiations to end the war. (Uh, but didn't Japan 'unconditionally surrender'?)
They let him stay on as part of the healing process for Japan's reconstruction.
How can America be a world leader and a beacon of hope for the world if it condones and ignores Nuremberg caliber War Crimes?
This speaks to the core of why all our brave soldiers died in the last 230 years. They died to protect "the American way of Life". A major part of that is our Constitution and rule of law. It's the core principals of what makes us Americans.
Do we as a country stand for the rule of law or do we stand for permitting war crimes?
Is our country honorable or despicable?
If we are the latter, we have no moral superiority to the 9-11 hijackers and their leadership.
is taunting the new president. Daring him act on our behalf. Jonathan is right. This makes Obama look culpable. You would think Dick would keep his mouth shut and go spend all the money he made in the 8 years he was president. I do hope Eric Holder is putting a brief together. This should not get swept under the proverbial rug. The country needs a cleansing.
41. It is not surprising that Obama is being advised that prosecuting
Bush/Cheney would be unpopular, a major distraction to say the least for any new president. But hasn't this situation developed to this point in time because the Democratic leadership, Pelosi and others did not want to risk any political capital, as they perceived it to be anyway, that now has Obama in this situation?
I say yes, and that does not mean I give Obama a pass, I most certainly do not. Yet, I do see the decisions of Pelosi and others who were not true to their oath, were not willing to educate the public about WHY the use of torture is not only illegal, but brings a greater opportunity for OUR soldiers to be treated as such and that those trained in interrogation practices know that torture is unreliable, that torture is a great way to help recruit for those guys we are fighting to root out.
If they all continue to play politics on this one, I truly hope that scholars like Turley NEVER stop talking about these crimes. If Obama's advisers want public support for a special prosecutor, I hope we can all rally for that support. I guess what I'm really trying to say is, I don't give a damn at this point if Obama appoints a SP for the wrong reasons or not, just as long as he does it!
47. I'm no authority on the power of the Senate and House, but let's say
as a body they could appoint a special prosecutor, would they go against Obama? I have my doubts. Perhaps the Hague will try Bush/Cheney and their filthy lawyers too. I haven't heard any mention from the Obama administration to repeal the MCA of 2006, which among other things, gave retroactive immunity to many of the Busheviks. I do know this much, that immunity does not apply outside the US.
50. Tom Tamm - frmr DoJ who exposed Bush wiretaps wins Ridenhour Prize
At least you can file this under good news: Tom Tamm, the Department of Justice attorney who exposed the Bush scheme for warrantless wiretaps has won the Ridenhour Prize. This ought to help with his legal bills at least but it won't make up for the fact that DoJ still can't say what's going to happen in his case.
The AUMFs, authorizations for use of military force, made supposedly under compliance with the War Powers Resolution of '73 (and embedded w/in the AUMFs) actually don't comply.
The War Powers Resolution of '73 requires "clear" (translated TRUTHFUL) "situations" and "circumstances". That alone needs to be investigated by Sen. Leahy's Truth Commission. 9-11 was an inside job and with Iraq, that was entirely based upon trumped up WMDs etc. du jour.
Once you go into the investigation that Leahy proposes everything else falls like a house of cards.
Turley seems to forget that those AUMF's language give Bush war powers "as he determines". That is being used as the justification FOR EVERYTHING. Once 9-11 is reinvestigated properly, you will find that the AUMFs were made fraudulently.
80. I don't hear the word "deterrence" often enough.
Clinton's legal issues were peanuts compared to this, especially in a larger way than just federal law. Yeah, he lied, but.....jeez. It's not like anyone got waterboarded because of it.
They were peanuts compared to Watergate, etc, as well.....or Iran\Contra. And how much fallout ever came from those? Nixon was leaving in disgrace no matter what, so he had no consequences. ON fell on his sword...a bit. More like a Swiss army knife, and that's part of the problem. "Gee, we're sorry, Ollie. Here - have all this great shit for being such a standup guy."
I have NO thought whatsoever that Obama will ever been in legal trouble over anything he ever does in office, but what about the Presidents after him? No consequences = no deterrence.
Bush* would have been fortunate to have been charged with the peanuts that Clinton was, or even Nixon's crimes... "Worse Than Watergate," indeed... x( And North ended up with a TV show. Obama is a lawyer, don't forget... :-) He may take the "high ground," but is also a student of history, not Bush*'s best subject... :-(
Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators
Important Notices: By participating on this discussion
board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules
page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the
opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent
the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.